Using a sugliin without Sugliin Mastery

[Jeff the Green]

Is it possible to cheat your way into using the sugliin without having to make single attacks as full-round actions? The ways I've thought of are martial strikes and pounce, but I'm not sure if they work. Do they? Any other way?

[Telonius]

Away from the books at the moment, but I wonder if the Skillful enhancement might help.

[Darrin]

Is it possible to cheat your way into using the sugliin without having to make single attacks as full-round actions? The ways I've thought of are martial strikes and pounce, but I'm not sure if they work. Do they? Any other way?

You can still make AoOs with it. Jack B. Quick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17031211&postcount=30)?

You can get around the proficiency with an unawakened sunsword (3000 GP, Expedition to Castle Ravenloft), add Morphing (+1 enhancement MIC) to turn the two-handed martial bastard sword into a two-handed sugliin. Add Morphing to the fully upgraded Sun Blade (DMG) and you can wield it as if it were a shortsword.

Planar Touchstone: Oxyrhynchus might be worth a look... the wonky wording may actually give your iterative attacks back without the Sugliin Mastery feat. You have to find a way to get rid of your opponent's Dex bonus and it still costs a feat, but you get an extra attack out of it.

[Coidzor]

There might be a maneuver or two that manages to scoot by, maybe?

[Chronos]

Ooh, I just found a rules exploit here: The simplest way to use a sugliin effectively is to not be proficient in it. From the sidebar on page 76 of Frostburn, "Primitive exotic weapons":

Although many of these primitive weapons are categorized as exotic weapons, they can be used as martial weapons by those not trained in their use as exotic weapons. If a primitive exotic weapon is used as a mar- tial weapon, the user cannot make use of any of that weapon’s special qualities (such as the iuak’s ability to damage objects, or the tigerskull club’s ability to disarm and trip).
...
Primitive exotic weapons introduced in this book that use these rules include goads, harpoons, iuaks, ritiiks, sugliins, and tigerskull clubs.
So, if you're just proficient with martial weapons, not with the sugliin, then you can't make use of its "a single attack is a full-round action" special quality.

You also risk breaking it whenever you do too much damage with it this way, but hey, there's no free lunch.

[Feint's End]

Away from the books at the moment, but I wonder if the Skillful enhancement might help.

Not really ... The problem is not the proficiency but that you need a whole feat which gives you iteratives.

[Jeff the Green]

So, if you're just proficient with martial weapons, not with the sugliin, then you can't make use of its "a single attack is a full-round action" special quality.

Yeah, but you're not "making use" of it unless for some reason it would benefit you, and I can't think of any situation where it would.

[Zombulian]

You can still make AoOs with it. Jack B. Quick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17031211&postcount=30)?

You can get around the proficiency with an unawakened sunsword (3000 GP, Expedition to Castle Ravenloft), add Morphing (+1 enhancement MIC) to turn the two-handed martial bastard sword into a two-handed sugliin. Add Morphing to the fully upgraded Sun Blade (DMG) and you can wield it as if it were a shortsword.

Planar Touchstone: Oxyrhynchus might be worth a look... the wonky wording may actually give your iterative attacks back without the Sugliin Mastery feat. You have to find a way to get rid of your opponent's Dex bonus and it still costs a feat, but you get an extra attack out of it.

Darrin why you gotta blow my mind like that. That's such an amazing combo I feel dumb for not thinking of it. What other weapons would benefit from being counted as a shortsword? Probably tons actually.

Also is there anything Planar Touchstone can't do?

[Darrin]

What other weapons would benefit from being counted as a shortsword?

Well, there's a little bit of a loophole with Bloodclaw Master's Superior Two-Weapon Fighting:

"Starting at 2nd level, when you attack with two daggers or Tiger Claw weapons, you do not take the –2 penalty on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons."
(emphasis added)

Greataxe is a Tiger Claw weapon. So you can TWF with greataxe/unarmed strike... but add a sunsword or sun blade, or better yet, two sunswords/sunblades, you can TWF with a greataxe in each hand, no TWF penalty, and get full Str bonus on each.

(The wording is a little wonky, though... the lesser/unawakened sunsword doesn't include the "ease of use" clause, so there's an argument it can't be wielded one-handed... you can add Totemist 2 for 4 Girallon Arms, but since it's not considered a light weapon either, you probably wind up with -2/-2 TWF penalties. Two full-on sun blades can be wielded as if they were light weapons, though. And Claws of the Beast mentions Tiger Claw weapons, but then lists them out and doesn't mention greataxe, so there might be an argument it doesn't work with greataxes.)