What is the Origin of Magic? (in game) and other things

[Dr_S]

I was thinking about doing a little write up for a fictional world I'm creating in the style of excerpts from a text book used in the 101 course of a major Wizarding university or something to that effect.

Basically in the style of a real life Science text book except it's about magic, where the history and other facts about the world are revealed through anecdotes that explain basic magical concepts...

For example there would be a brief history about the origin of magic as far as historians can date (thus an age of dragons, first humans to practice magic, perhaps the ascension of a god or 2; I will do the history last so that I can make sure it's consistent with the sections that aren't directly related to the history that give insight)

Anyway, what is the origin of magic in the world? (I guess since I'm creating this world it's up to me ultimately) It would be for a Pathfinder Campaign but 3.5/other sources are welcome as well as personal interpretations...

That seems simple and all, but here's the tricky sub-question: Where does Arcane power come from?

I.e. there will be competing religions presumably (more interesting that way) so since gods interact with the world, people will know they exist, and by extension, the world being created by a god or gods would be the most popular theory. However if God created the world as we know it, what is the original source of Arcane Power? is it Divine magic that has been altered in some way? Did it pre-date the creation of the world? How do I explain the practical differences, if it's just a "descendant" of Divine power that has been passed down in some way, why are the spell lists different?

Honestly any other insights into magic would be rad too...

Also how to handle the topic of Divine Magic in general; Should I mention it and then move on? Would Wizards study this? If they share an point of origin, then that's a bit harder to do. I wanted to do a chapter on things like undead, but that technically falls under the perview of Knowledge religion right?

Also how did humans discover magic? were we taught? by whom? and how did the discover it?

If you were a budding wizard, just starting his first semester at college; just signed up for intro to Magic what would you want the text book to cover? and how?

[Inevitability]

Mystic Theurges exist. I think that is at least some indication a few wizards are at least moderately interested in religion. Maybe simply outline the basics and make a reference to another book for the more complex concepts?

I think the textbook should at least cover some information on all schools, maybe a few examples. Don't go into details, those are covered in other, more specialized books. Include a chapter on notable wizards, such as the Circle of Eight (or your world's equivalent).

Other planes are also something I imagine students would be interested in. After all, summoning angel badgers is fun, but where do they come from?


For specialized textbooks, how about those for wizards who want to learn more about crafting, fighting in the army, or any other professions? Remember, a wizard can be built for anything. I can make a farmer wizard and be better at farming than several cities' populations working together.

[Asrrin]

In most campaign settings, magic is a force of nature like gravity or electromagnetism. Wizards channel the energy by elaborate rituals, mathematics, and gestures to bring about the desired effects, while sorcerers bend reality to their will through sheer force of personality. The gods used magic and the basic building blocks of existence to create the world, it's inhabitants, and such.

Afrokuma is a resident on these boards and could probably answer the question much more in depth for the Planescape cosmology.

[Dr_S]

I think the textbook should at least cover some information on all schools, maybe a few examples. Don't go into details, those are covered in other, more specialized books. Include a chapter on notable wizards, such as the Circle of Eight (or your world's equivalent).

Yeah. I wanted this to be like a Gen-Ed course; So students might still be deciding to go straight wizardry or more of an Artificer Route, or maybe have no magical talent and are just scholars; so I was thinking:
Section 1: "What is Magic?"

Chapter 1: Brief History (including how history has shaped our relationship with magic
Chapter 2: "Sources of Magic" (mostly the differences between Arcane and Divine, but get into like Ley Lines or my world's equivalent)
Chapter 3: Maybe something on how Magic has shaped the Geopolitics of the Day (however, I intend this to be incredibly biased toward the country it's from) and this is where I might include the who's-who of modern or recent magicians
Section 2: Unsure; atm

Chapter ?: A Chapter on the Planes
Section 3: Magical Creatures

Chapter 1: Fey/Dragons/Etc. (Things that naturally appear in the world that are magical in nature)
Chapter 2: Extraplanar creatures
Chapter 3: Undead
Chapter 4: Lycanthropes
Chapter 5: Other (can be merged with another section if that is too short)
Section 4: Basics of Magic Use

Chapter 1: How to channel magic (How humans discovered magic Prayer -> Ritual -> Spell)
Chapter 2: Items of Power (Similar; Charms (with no stats) -> Spell storing -> etc.)
Chapter 3: Schools of Magic
Chapter 4: What is a spell? (I.e. a basic idea of what the components would be)

What I definitely need is a working "scholarly" sounding definition of Magic that includes both arcane and Divine, and then working definitions of each; What Asrrin's got is a good start...
A Chapter on like "what to do in case of curse?!?" or Elves? I don't want to put Elves under "Magical Creatures" as they're a humanoid race, perhaps squeeze that kind of thing into Section 2... I think the "Creatures" section is going to shape the history the most; Dragons are probably going to claim themselves "most ancient magical beings" for example; I should probably start with the chapter on the planes (Can be 2 chapters; elemental vs. alignment based planes)

[Dgrin]

First of all, that's a great idea, I hope to see the results :smallwink:

On topic: I believe there was no official explanation for the origin of magic, or psionics and other systems. You can assume that it is the natural force in the world, some kind of energy left from the creation of the Multiverse, or the Serpent (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Serpent), whatever you choose for your world. You may find a couple of useful things to draw inspiration from in the introduction to Complete Arcane, first chapter of Complete Mage and also this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?213018-Explain-Arcane-Magic!).

But, if there is something canon on that topic, I second the suggestion of asking afroakuma - he's certainly one of the most knowledgeable people entities here. His Planar Questions thread are undoubtedly my favorite on that boards - you should definitely read them if you're interested in Planescape and the rules and wonders of the Multiverse

[Dr_S]

Well then... Consensus is in...

*Turns off the lights, lights candle, looks into the mirror*

afroakuma
afroakuma
afroakuma

...

[JDL]

It would also depend on your campaign setting. For example, Faerûn has a well defined structure of magic in the form of The Weave (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Weave). Other campaigns have varying levels of explanation as to the precise source of magic and the power it grants.

[the_david]

I'm not sure. I had this idea for a science fantasy setting where magic just radiated from the machine-god buried inside the planet. (Yes, that would have been a megadungeon) The socalled deities where just powerful mages wo would redirect their power into their followers, while the wizards found a way to channel it directly.

You could say that magic has always existed. The gods needed clerics to guide their followers, and to protect them from the arrogant wizards. So the gods granted the power to perform miracles to their clerics, but only as long as they served the gods, and only those spells that were part of the portfolio of the gods.
Does that make sense?

I'd like to add that you don't have to limit yourself to arcane and divine. With a bit of imagination and the right system, you could divide spellcasters in any way you want, giving them limits based on their origin. Here's a quick incomplete list:
- Bardic (Magic is a melody that can imitated)
- Divine (Magic comes from the gods)
- Elemental (master of the 4 elements, or just 1)
- Infernal (Selling your soul)
- Primal (Nature is magical)
- Psionic (Magic is in my head)
- Wizardry (Magic is a force of nature that can be tamed)

[jedipotter]

Anyway, what is the origin of magic in the world? (I guess since I'm creating this world it's up to me ultimately) It would be for a Pathfinder Campaign but 3.5/other sources are welcome as well as personal interpretations...

Belief. And when different beliefs clash, it makes a 'friction' know as magic.

Each of the Outer Planes of the Great Wheel is not a real physical place. They are conceptual places made out of belief and thought and memories. A desert full of sand is not a real desert, it is a bunch of tiny frozen bits of belief. Each grain of sand it a tiny bit of Chaotic Evil belief. If you could look at the grain in the right way, you can see a small Chaotic Evil act. Like for example a thug shooting an arrow at a noisy song bird or someone stealing a money pouch. Each time anyone in the multiverse has a thought, or does an action in line with the belief of the plane, they add a bit to the plane in the form of such a frozen memory. And as each plane ''rubs' against each other....they make magic.


The magic then flows freely throughout the whole Multiverse. After several eons, the magic is everywhere always.

The first uses of magic in the world were races with natural magic, like dragons and fey and demons. A couple clever folks tried to do magic just like the races did naturally and invented arcane magic.

At about the same time various gods made contact with folks in the world, and offered power for worship. And so divine magic came into being.

Though learning to use magic was, and still is hard, so not everyone could do it. So soon enough a short cut was found. A non magical person could ''get'' a bit off magical ability from a magical creature. And so the variant magic know as sorcery was born.

And soon enough magic filled the world.

[Coidzor]

Well, in some settings it naturally emanates from the Deity, or Deities, of Magic, see: Krynnspace, Realmspace.

In other settings it is a natural consquence of the fundamental laws of the universe and being able to speak to them ala Mathematics.

I have a friend who made Magic into a side-effect of the Magnetic fields that planets have, such that one had to take magic with one's self in the form of crystals in order to travel through space.

In Dark Sun, Athas having its planetary molten iron core replaced with a molten(?) obsidian core has caused it to have a psionic field as a result of the weakening of the magnetic field of the planet, causing most of the life on Athas to mutate to tap into magic via natural thinkamancy.

[atemu1234]

Sorcerers bend reality to their will through sheer force of personality

Or as my group put it, I'm pretty, therefore I can use magic.

[JDL]

Yeah, the way a lot of people put it, magic is the art of telling the rules of the universe to sit down and shut up for a moment.

Wizards do it by an extensive knowledge of the loopholes in the rules. Sorcerers do it by schmoozing the universe to get what they want.

[Dr_S]

So, are arcane magic and divine magic the same natural force? Divine being that which is channeled through some other natural force or deity?

If so, does that have a practical impact on spell trigger items? I.e. if a company bought a defolliate wand with the intent to clear cut the same forest the druid was channeling to create it, could that forest protect itself from the wand? If you found the wand created by the cleric of a chaotic evil god, what happens if you use that wand to bring a serial killer follower of said God to justice, what happens?

[Coidzor]

So, are arcane magic and divine magic the same natural force? Divine being that which is channeled through some other natural force or deity?

Generally. Simplifies bookkeeping.


If so, does that have a practical impact on spell trigger items? I.e. if a company bought a defolliate wand with the intent to clear cut the same forest the druid was channeling to create it, could that forest protect itself from the wand? If you found the wand created by the cleric of a chaotic evil god, what happens if you use that wand to bring a serial killer follower of said God to justice, what happens?

No, not really, unless you want to go in and track a whole lot of fiddly bits. A forest wouldn't grant spells to a druid anyway, though.

CE gods are usually fairly lolrandom or turnabout is fair play, so... Even if they had the attention to spare and the ability to influence...

[Vaz]

Well when a mommy magic and a daddy magic really love each other...

[Dr_S]

A forest wouldn't grant spells to a druid anyway, though.

OK, I guess I might not totally understand the source of a druids power. I thought they received their power through nature, and often their connection to a particular region.


CE gods are usually fairly lolrandom or turnabout is fair play, so... Even if they had the attention to spare and the ability to influence...
True, but the point of the question was more, is there essence of the source power in a divine magical item? Or does it's connection cease the moment it leaves the clerics hand?

[paperarmor]

Physics. Magic is one of the fundamental forces of the universe the act of manipulating is like physics.
Wizards - learn it through rigorous study, experimentation and flaming blackboards
Sorcerers - Savants who have an intuitive understanding of the fundamental forces and how they interact
Divine- the power that they venerate gives them the cribnotes for everything so they have to keep coming back instead of learning it themselves.