making Heal skill useful ?

[nonsi]

.
I recently encountered the PF feats Field Surgeon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/sean-k-reynolds-games/combat-feats---3rd-party---sean-k-reynolds-games/field-surgeon-combat) and Asclepian Doctor (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/sean-k-reynolds-games/general-feats---3rd-party---sean-k-reynolds-games/asclepian-doctor).

I'd like som feedback from the other homebrewers her.
How do these feats seem to you?
Me - I find it strange that the former is tagged "Combat". The latter seemed ok to me, until I saw the duration of "Raise the Dead". Seems too much "Princess Bride" to me.


Thoughts....... opinions....... ?

[MrNobody]

I looked at them both: field surgeon looks ok, and i have no problem considering it a combat feat since it is made to be used on the field, to provide aid to those fallen on the battleground.

Asclepian Doctor seemed also ok... until i saw "raise dead"! That option seems to me simply out of any logic. Being a mundane method, even with an abnormal knowledge of medicine reviving someone that was dead for days is something i can't conceive.
If you want to retain that option i would lower to 30+number of rounds dead, and leaving one hour for treating the patient while performing CPR and applying those balms and wraps the feat talks about.

[nonsi]

Actually, I did a little digging and found that PF handled this one beautifully.

If I were to make any corrections, They'd amount only to:
1. Treat Poison: Without an appropriate alchemical substance or magical effect, Treat Poison takes 1 round, not a standard action.
2. Treat Deadly Wounds: Takes 30 minutes.
3. Erode Willpower: As long as the subject is held captive, recovery takes 1 day per point eroded.

That's about it.

[nonsi]

.
Ok, I have an idea how to handle death.


From the Brink of Death [General]
Requirements: Heal 7 ranks
Benefits: You may attempt to revive someone that has been killed for up to 1d10 rounds plus 1 round per HD.
You must ceaselessly treat the fallen target for a period of 1d10 hours plus 1 hour per round elapsed since its demise.
Each hour of treatment expends 2 uses from a healer's kit and requires a Heal check vs. DC [30 - target's (HD + con-mod)]. If you fail, the subject is truly dead and may no longer be revived. If you fail by 5 or more, you're not aware of your failure.
Any round during treatment where you're interrupted, counts as an additional round it took to start treatment after the target has fallen, increasing treatment time.
Up to 4 assistants may aid the healer, all of which must have 5 or more ranks in Heal. Each assistant lowers the DC by 2.
Survivors brought back from the brink of death are stabilized at -9 (or your lowest houseruled value for being stabilized).
Special: There are cases that are beyond the scope of this feat:
- Physical destruction
- Decapitation
- Heart-extracted
- Brain-extracted
- Stat-drained (this special case is undetectable by the Heal skill until 1d4 hours of treatment have elapsed)
- Any other condition that's totally beyond the scope of modern medicine
Special: Targets that have died of suffocation take less time to revive: 1d10 minutes plus 1 minute per round elapsed since its demise.




How does that sound?

[SiuiS]

It's possible the DC 20 once per day healing of 1d8 hp is already a standard rule (if you inherit from 3e), as it's a second party rule from dark sun that is not campaign exclusive. But otherwise, I think the combat surgeon one should be a function of the skill by default.

[nonsi]

It's possible the DC 20 once per day healing of 1d8 hp is already a standard rule (if you inherit from 3e), as it's a second party rule from dark sun that is not campaign exclusive. But otherwise, I think the combat surgeon one should be a function of the skill by default.

Actually, PF's Treat Deadly Wounds is better than Field Surgeon, because the effect is immediate.
Seems to me like the right way to go about it is to incorporate the treatment period DCs and the mishap damage into Treat Deadly Wounds.
I'd also change the daily restriction to: "A creature cannot be healed this way for more than its HD + healer's Wis-bonus in a given day".
This means that a target that is slightly injured may be treated, and then, if it is injured again, it may still benefit from a good field dressing (up to its daily quota).

[Just to Browse]

Getting raise dead as a feat dependent on your heal ranks is fine in D&D. There are skills that let you fool magic items, study magic, gain magical focus, and study magical kung fu. There are also feats that let you summon elementals, learn wizard magic, and become psychic. Having one feat turn a nonmagical skill into a semi-magical ability is hardly out of the ordinary.

Field Surgeon is a terrible feat because it's just really bad. That should be something you get for having skill ranks.

[Zaydos]

Field Surgeon is really bad.

Asclepian compared to 3.5 makes neutralizing poison harder (you can already treat a poisoned creature, and the DC is 15 less for effectively the same benefit), curing disease can be done in one day instead of 3; and the other three abilities are:

Crippling Injury: Is neat.

Raise the Dead: Is a little supernatural, but you've gone beyond real world maximums 3-4 levels ago, and power wise it's nothing special, you still pay the price. It works well as a feat.

Repair Injury: Actually lets you heal ability drain for free which is normally really hard to obtain, limit it to 1 point/day per target and it becomes a really neat feat along with the other abilities. Even at will it's something unique but far from game breaking (it mostly just lets a DM throw ability drain at the party more). I'm just unsure what action this takes.

[nonsi]

Getting raise dead as a feat dependent on your heal ranks is fine in D&D. There are skills that let you fool magic items, study magic, gain magical focus, and study magical kung fu. There are also feats that let you summon elementals, learn wizard magic, and become psychic. Having one feat turn a nonmagical skill into a semi-magical ability is hardly out of the ordinary.


Yes, but Raise Dead is a 5th level spell that costs you 5000gp and a permanent level loss.





Field Surgeon is a terrible feat because it's just really bad. That should be something you get for having skill ranks.


Field Surgeon is indeed terrible as a feat, which is why I suggested to just incorporate Treatment Time into the skill.

[Zaydos]

Yes, but Raise Dead is a 5th level spell that costs you 5000gp and a permanent level loss.

This keeps the 5000 GP cost and might keep the level loss (as that is arguably one of the limitations of Raise Dead) and is not available before 9th level which tends to help balance it a fair bit. It's a feat for a spell usable theoretically at-will but a spell which you shouldn't be spamming in any situation.

[nonsi]

Asclepian compared to 3.5 makes neutralizing poison harder (you can already treat a poisoned creature, and the DC is 15 less for effectively the same benefit), curing disease can be done in one day instead of 3; and the other three abilities are:


Of course. Notice the disclaimer that the feat is a pre-PF release.





Raise the Dead: Is a little supernatural, but you've gone beyond real world maximums 3-4 levels ago, and power wise it's nothing special, you still pay the price. It works well as a feat.


I tried to suggest a feat in post #4 that would discard of the supernatural feel.
I think it's ok, but i'd like to know if others find it reasonable as well (slim chances at 4th level, but quite reasonable chances at 10th+).





Repair Injury: Actually lets you heal ability drain for free which is normally really hard to obtain, limit it to 1 point/day per target and it becomes a really neat feat along with the other abilities. Even at will it's something unique but far from game breaking (it mostly just lets a DM throw ability drain at the party more). I'm just unsure what action this takes.


Yes. I skipped that one.
Seems to me like it should also be part of the skill's scope of benefits.

[Just to Browse]

Yes, but Raise Dead is a 5th level spell that costs you 5000gp and a permanent level loss.

In place of 5000gp of diamonds, you use 5000gp of "oil and balms" (arguably worse, arguably better). In place of a spell you use a feat (worse). You can fail, wasting the resources (worse). They don't lose levels or Con (better, unless you count that as a "limitation"). The feat is ill-defined as to how the target is raised, what they get back, whether they lose stats, what your "caster level" for the effect is, or if the effect is spell-like or extraordinary, but that's normal fare for SKR. The idea behind the feat is still fine.

[nonsi]

In place of 5000gp of diamonds, you use 5000gp of "oil and balms" (arguably worse, arguably better).
In place of a spell you use a feat (worse). You can fail, wasting the resources (worse). They don't lose levels or Con (better, unless you count that as a "limitation"). The feat is ill-defined as to how the target is raised, what they get back, whether they lose stats, what your "caster level" for the effect is, or if the effect is spell-like or extraordinary, but that's normal fare for SKR. The idea behind the feat is still fine.



I get what "Asclepian Doctor" does, and I personally don't like it one bit.
It's supposed to spell out "Surgeon" and instead it spells out "Witch Doctor".
I'm looking for an alternative that won't be (Sp), (Ps), (Su), or even (Ex), but more in the line of CPR, hemorrhage draining, stitching torn tissues, splinting fractured bones etc (just without actually getting into those details).

[Zaydos]

I get what "Asclepian Doctor" does, and I personally don't like it one bit.
It's supposed to spell out "Surgeon" and instead it spells out "Witch Doctor".
I'm looking for an alternative that won't be (Sp), (Ps), (Su), or even (Ex), but more in the line of CPR, hemorrhage draining, stitching torn tissues, splinting fractured bones etc (just without actually getting into those details).

In that case go for hp recovery, quick ability damage recovery, and revivify type effect (i.e. if someone died within 1 round and could be revived with Raise Dead you can revive them to unconsciousness). Avoid ability drain, as that is purely Su and never heals for free normally, and people dead longer than a few rounds.

[T.G. Oskar]

I add my voice to "Field Surgeon is bad", since it only works when you rest, and by that moment, you have Long-Term Care dealing with it. Had it been like d20M's Surgery (http://www.d20resources.com/modern.d20.srd/feats/surgery.php) feat, where you can restore a bunch of d6 all at once (http://www.d20resources.com/modern.d20.srd/skills/treat.injury.php), at the expense of being exhausted (nothing a little Lesser Restoration or something along the lines can't handle) and only making it useful once per day per character, then it would have made sense and be useful. As it stands, bleh!

Asclepian Doctor is pretty cool, even with the Raising the Dead bit. Sure, there's a conflict with that last bit, but there's CPR, so it's not like you can't do it. On the other hand, the duration is...well, I don't want it to feel so iffy, but it feels like it. Overall, though, it's relatively hard to pull off the skill check without serious dedication (full ranks + Self-Sufficient + Skill Focus [Heal] + huge Wisdom). To compare: d20 Modern's Field Medic's (http://www.d20resources.com/modern.d20.srd/classes/advanced/field.medic.php) capstone, which works somewhat like Raising the Dead, has a comparable skill check DC (40) and a much lower range (3 minutes after death), and likewise requires no components (and it's meant to represent modern life, so take this with a grain of salt). Making it be 30 + 1 per minute after death is reasonable marker.

[Just to Browse]

It is definitely not (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asclepius) designed for a "surgeon". If you want a surgeon feat, I suggest looking for something that isn't named after a god.

[nonsi]

In that case go for hp recovery, quick ability damage recovery, and revivify type effect (i.e. if someone died within 1 round and could be revived with Raise Dead you can revive them to unconsciousness). Avoid ability drain, as that is purely Su and never heals for free normally, and people dead longer than a few rounds.

Yes, but revivify can be cast immediately in the following round, whereas a medic is not supposed to be able to do that (deploying your healer's kit should take 2 rounds at the very least), so 1 round is just not enough.

[nonsi]

It is definitely not (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asclepius) designed for a "surgeon". If you want a surgeon feat, I suggest looking for something that isn't named after a god.

I totally agree, which is why I proposed an alternative at post #4 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18574969&postcount=4).
Importing Repair Injury from Asclepian Doctor into the skill should complete the whole picture as far as nonmagical healing goes.
And the suggestions at post #3 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18574790&postcount=3) are just my view of what would make things more accurate.

[nonsi]

I add my voice to "Field Surgeon is bad", since it only works when you rest, and by that moment, you have Long-Term Care dealing with it. Had it been like d20M's Surgery (http://www.d20resources.com/modern.d20.srd/feats/surgery.php) feat, where you can restore a bunch of d6 all at once (http://www.d20resources.com/modern.d20.srd/skills/treat.injury.php), at the expense of being exhausted (nothing a little Lesser Restoration or something along the lines can't handle) and only making it useful once per day per character, then it would have made sense and be useful. As it stands, bleh!


Seems like we all agree on that one.





Asclepian Doctor is pretty cool, even with the Raising the Dead bit. Sure, there's a conflict with that last bit, but there's CPR, so it's not like you can't do it. On the other hand, the duration is...well, I don't want it to feel so iffy, but it feels like it. Overall, though, it's relatively hard to pull off the skill check without serious dedication (full ranks + Self-Sufficient + Skill Focus [Heal] + huge Wisdom). To compare: d20 Modern's Field Medic's (http://www.d20resources.com/modern.d20.srd/classes/advanced/field.medic.php) capstone, which works somewhat like Raising the Dead, has a comparable skill check DC (40) and a much lower range (3 minutes after death), and likewise requires no components (and it's meant to represent modern life, so take this with a grain of salt). Making it be 30 + 1 per minute after death is reasonable marker.


I believe that the need to make repeated checks each hour (in my proposed feat) reliably represents the lower chances for success when more time elapses from the instant the target is down and until treatment commences.

[Just to Browse]

I get what "Asclepian Doctor" does, and I personally don't like it one bit.
It's supposed to spell out "Surgeon" and instead it spells out "Witch Doctor".
I see, so you retracted this statement? I glazed over that part of the conversation.

[nonsi]

I see, so you retracted this statement? I glazed over that part of the conversation.

Maybe I got it all wrong, but it seems like you get the impression I retracted the 'Surgeon' approach.
I didn't.

[Just to Browse]

Huh? You said the feat was "supposed to spell out 'surgeon'". I demonstrated that it was not supposed to do that. Then you said things that I didn't understand and I tried to make it clearer for you.

[nonsi]

I've had it suggested to me to just go ahead and allow the Heal skill to heal some amount of HP damage an unlimited times per day but requiring a time investment so that it'd only be useful outside of combat and in situations where one wasn't on the clock with a bunch of buffs.

Say, take 1 minute or 5 minutes and give back the equivalent of a Cure Light spell or 10 minutes and give a larger number of HP back. So it'd take ~5 minutes or ~30 minutes or ~1 hour to get it done for a standard party, depending. Can't remember the suggested amount healed per use of the skill, though.


While I can certainly understand the motivation, the above suggestions would make the game revolve around patching wound.
I'm not sure the outcome will make the game better.





Accompanying this would be an increase in the natural healing rate from resting overnight and other similar things, naturally.


Some might find this less credible than 1HP per HD per night's rest.





@JTB: Got it.

Anyway, post #18 sums up my view of the most desireable outcome of what nonmagical healing should look like in 3.Xe.
It shouldn't be anything less and it doesn't need to be anything more.

[nonsi]

Cure Light Wounds is still quicker and cheap for wand healing of HP. Lesser Vigor is still better and quicker for getting the entire group.
. . .
Having a heal check do it isn't going to make the game revolve around patching wounds anymore than having wands of cure light makes the game revolve around using the wand on one's party members and one's self.


Yes, but unless you're in a race against time, it's always better to conserve resources that can be used in combat and use stuff you can't apply during combat – this will make nonmagical healing the norm.





especially at low levels where gameplay can revolve around hiding in a closet for several days just to restore the hp lost from one fight. (Ahh, Good Old Sunless Citadel, you never forget your first...)


If you apply all the suggestions I mentioned above, the need for hiding in a closet for several days is something that's not gonna happen.





It would, however, offer a form of healing in dead magic zones and anti-magic fields as well as being something that basically any character could pick up to some extent regardless of class.


1. Dead magic zone is not something an average character is supposed to encounter more than twice in his lifetime.
2. Who in their right mind would ever consider resting & healing inside antimagic?





Well, yes, some people find any alteration of the rules less credible than RAW. :smalltongue: You're on the Homebrew Design Sub-Forum now, though, nonsi.


I'm aware of it probably better than most, but there are ways of making things happen without breaking suspension of disbelief.
3.Xe offers a character healing rate that's already superior to the vast majority of even the most exotic life forms on earth. No need to stretch that even further.






Then why ask for people's thoughts if you don't want to hear anything except for what you've already decided upon? :smalltongue:


1. When I started this thread, all I had were 2 pre-PF homebrew feats. I didn't know here this was going.
2. If you'd made a little research, you'd have found that so far I've adopted more than 50% of the proposals suggested to me. It just so happens that I didn't take yours on this particular instance. No need to get offended.




Regards