Martial arts and Pathfinder

[DungeonDelver]

So, with the monk and brawler archetypes and the style feats, I think there's a reasonable representation of different styles of hand-to-hand combat.

What do you guys think are some feat/archetype combinations that have good synergy for making a martial artist character? I think you could reasonably build a martial artist of any of the major, well known styles.

Or do you guys think the style feats and archetypes don't do a very good job of representing martial arts?

[Red Fel]

A martial art is an entire school of combat philosophy. It is composed of multiple techniques, concepts, and skills, all related to a few core principles. (Please pardon my oversimplification.)

Style feats are not martial arts. They are martial tricks. They are cool martial tricks, and they are fun martial tricks, but they are not martial arts.

Path of War (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/) offers something a little closer to the concept of martial arts. A progression of techniques and forms grouped around a central principle. I'd suggest taking a look at those. And if you mean "unarmed combat" when you say "martial arts," I'd particularly suggest taking a peek at the Broken Blade (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/broken-blade-maneuvers) discipline.

[GreyBlack]

A martial art is an entire school of combat philosophy. It is composed of multiple techniques, concepts, and skills, all related to a few core principles. (Please pardon my oversimplification.)

Style feats are not martial arts. They are martial tricks. They are cool martial tricks, and they are fun martial tricks, but they are not martial arts.

Path of War (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/) offers something a little closer to the concept of martial arts. A progression of techniques and forms grouped around a central principle. I'd suggest taking a look at those. And if you mean "unarmed combat" when you say "martial arts," I'd particularly suggest taking a peek at the Broken Blade (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/broken-blade-maneuvers) discipline.

Agreed and disagree, as one could easily argue that martial arts are simply a systematized pedagogical technique for practicing methods of offense and defense, but if you want that debate, I'm open to PM.

Fact of the matter is that a martial _art_ in pathfinder would be a collection of feats that comprise a given school's toolset. If you're building a grappling school, build with those feats. Hard striking would be a different feat build entirely.

[PsyBomb]

Monk has two Archetypes for this concept, the aptly-named Martial Artist and the Master of Many Styles.

[Extra Anchovies]

The feat that makes unarmed combat good in Pathfinder is Pummeling Charge, because it's pounce with unarmed attacks, and when you have seven attacks to make, getting the chance to make all seven is very good. The fact that if one of them crits, they all crit? Just icing on the cake. Pummeling Style and Pummeling Charge should be taken ASAP, along with Improved Natural Attack if your DM rules that it works for unarmed strikes. Anything else is up to you.

Also, if you happen to be playing a Sacred Fist Warpriest (who is, IMO, a better monk than the monk), you can pick up Martial Versatility (Monk Weapons) and use Pummeling Style with higher-crit-range weapons, or higher-multiplier weapons, or with the Sansetsukon (which just so happens to be a two-handed weapon).


Path of War (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/) offers something a little closer to the concept of martial arts. A progression of techniques and forms grouped around a central principle. I'd suggest taking a look at those. And if you mean "unarmed combat" when you say "martial arts," I'd particularly suggest taking a peek at the Broken Blade (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/broken-blade-maneuvers) discipline.

We should probably find out from the OP whether third-party content is even allowed before going into our usual "You're playing a fighty-type? In Pathfinder? What you're doing is wrong, play something out of this book instead." :smalltongue:

[DungeonDelver]

A martial art is an entire school of combat philosophy. It is composed of multiple techniques, concepts, and skills, all related to a few core principles. (Please pardon my oversimplification.)

Style feats are not martial arts. They are martial tricks. They are cool martial tricks, and they are fun martial tricks, but they are not martial arts.

That is true, but the combat philosophy isn't something you can truly represent mechanically. Therefore, within a mechanical context you have to rely on character abilities like feats, skills and class features to replicate how that style is used.

When you watch a style being performed, whether in an actual fight or just a demonstration, you can get a sense for what the style is used for, and what the underlying philosophies are. Redirection, straight offense, hit and move...etc

Does pathfinder represent a reasonable variation of styles and applied philosophies well?

[Extra Anchovies]

Does pathfinder represent a reasonable variation of styles and applied philosophies well?

A big part of that is how you roleplay your character, really. If third-party is in, the already-mentioned Path of War (Tome of Battle for PF) can give your style some mechanical backing.

[137beth]

Agreed and disagree, as one could easily argue that martial arts are simply a systematized pedagogical technique for practicing methods of offense and defense, but if you want that debate, I'm open to PM.

Fact of the matter is that a martial _art_ in pathfinder would be a collection of feats that comprise a given school's toolset. If you're building a grappling school, build with those feats. Hard striking would be a different feat build entirely.
The issue is that there are not many feat chains which do a good job representing a range of martial arts techniques. In pathfinder, an individual technique is usually buried behind a long chain of otherwise-useless feats. Representing an entire form of martial art through existing pathfinder feats would require several dozen feats, which is more than you can have on a character.

A big part of that is how you roleplay your character, really. If third-party is in, the already-mentioned Path of War (Tome of Battle for PF) can give your style some mechanical backing.
Well, if third-party isn't in, then there isn't really any pathfinder left to discuss, now is there?:smalltongue:

[DungeonDelver]

The issue is that there are not many feat chains which do a good job representing a range of martial arts techniques. In pathfinder, an individual technique is usually buried behind a long chain of otherwise-useless feats. Representing an entire form of martial art through existing pathfinder feats would require several dozen feats, which is more than you can have on a character.

The flaws in the feat system, feat taxes that suck but you have to pay them anyway are a big part of it. Underpowered feats are another.

I do think that with a combination of character feats and bonus feats, a brawler or monk should be able to complete one or two style feat chains and with the existing class features you already get, especially with archetypes.

But I will admit that the 'style feats' are inadequate in representing what an actual martial arts style can do, but with features and other feats you should be able to build a martial artist character that's a reasonable facsimile.