Exotic Proficiency without Feats?

[Solaris]

Is there a way to employ an exotic weapon (specifically, an elf using an elven thinblade) without a feat investment, such as a spell or a magic item that will grant the proficiency or a reasonable facsimile thereof?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Master's Touch will give you proficiency on a touched weapon (and only that weapon) for mins/level IIRC, level 1 spell
Heroic's will give you a fighter bonus feat for 10/level, 2nd level spells.
Skillful weapon enhancement (+2 equivalent, CArc) allows you to wield the enchanted weapon without proficiency penalties and boost your BAB to 3/4 (unless it is higher) while using that weapon to attack.

Those are the simplest ways from the top of my head, if you want to be cheesy * you could use the DCS trick, go elf and DCS one of your weapon proficiency feats or for something even more cheesier, get a feat from a magical location (God's fane, Metamagic Storm, Othyoug's hole, etc) and then DCS that feat.


*Cheesiness value may vary, check with your table before attempting to use this trick.

[Urpriest]

IIRC, Mouthpick is cheaper than Skillful (though of course you need a bite attack).

[Solaris]

Master's Touch will give you proficiency on a touched weapon (and only that weapon) for mins/level IIRC, level 1 spell
Heroic's will give you a fighter bonus feat for 10/level, 2nd level spells.
Skillful weapon enhancement (+2 equivalent, CArc) allows you to wield the enchanted weapon without proficiency penalties and boost your BAB to 3/4 (unless it is higher) while using that weapon to attack.

Those are the simplest ways from the top of my head, if you want to be cheesy * you could use the DCS trick, go elf and DCS one of your weapon proficiency feats or for something even more cheesier, get a feat from a magical location (God's fane, Metamagic Storm, Othyoug's hole, etc) and then DCS that feat.


*Cheesiness value may vary, check with your table before attempting to use this trick.

That's perfect - thanks. I don't think I could've asked for a better response so quickly.

I'd let the cheesiness in if it were my game ('cause proficiencies suck as feats), but it's with a rookie DM and I don't wanna be That Guy.


IIRC, Mouthpick is cheaper than Skillful (though of course you need a bite attack).

I think I can get some use out of that one with a warforged charger build I've been working on.

[Knaight]

Being an elf covers it.

[Dread_Head]

Exoticist Fighter 1 gets exotic weapon proficiency for free.

[Coidzor]

Exoticist Fighter 1 gets exotic weapon proficiency for free.

4-6 of 'em, IIRC. May or may not be able to season with Thug or Sneak Attack Fighter to taste. Probably can Dungeoncrash or Zhentarim Fighter, though.

Edit: Huh. I'd have sworn there was some PF rules in either their Retraining or Downtime ruleset for converting or gaining weapon proficiencies.

[Jeff the Green]

A level of Master of Masks will do it too.

[Coidzor]

A level of Master of Masks will do it too.

Indeed! That's one of the main reasons to take the PrC for the Gladiator mask that grants this.

Edit: I got inspired to throw together a little bit of homebrew here, if anyone might be interested.

Feels like I may have just reinvented a wheel I've seen elsewhere though.


Proficiency Training:

Each Day's worth of Training involves 6 hours of drilling and training with the weapon or armor, after which the character is Fatigued for 2 hours or until having rested for 1 hour.

Anything that would cause a character who is Fatigued from training to become either Fatigued or Exhausted causes them to be exhausted until they've had the equivalent of a night's sleep/extended rest.

Training beyond 6 hours in a day causes the character to become Exhausted and only receive half the benefit of training (12 hours of training would be 1.5 days of training rather than 2)

Magical aid to remove the fatigue can eliminate this reduction in benefit but cannot reduce a duration of longer than 1 day to a single day.

Creatures immune to fatigue may continue training without penalty, indeed, many intelligent Constructs and Undead with the means and a martial inclination familiarize themselves with a broad array of techniques.

[Optionally, a DM may allow every 2 6-hour blocks of time spent training beyond the initial 6 hour block of training time to count as 3 days worth of training, allowing a character that devotes a complete day of training to make 5 "Days" worth of progress in a single 24-hour span.]

Simple Weapons require an Instructor below BAB +3 for all of the training time.
Martial Weapons require an Instructor below BAB +6 for all of the training time.
Exotic Weapons require an instructor below BAB +9 for all of the training time.
Light Armors require an instructor below BAB +1 for all of the training time.
Medium Armors and Shields require an instructor below BAB +3 for all of the training time.
Heavy Armors and Tower Shields require an instructor below BAB +6 for all of the training time.
Exotic Armors and Exotic Shields require an instructor below BAB +8 for all of the training time.

At the indicated BAB, an Instructor is only required for half of the training time and every 3 additional BAB halves the required time with an Instructor until 1/8 of the time would be required with an Instructor, at which point no Instructor is required at all. [So after having 6 BAB over the minimum required to not need an Instructor the whole time, one doesn't need an Instructor at all.]

[Optionally a DM may allow a character who requires an Instructor to gain proficiency in exchange for doubling or quintupling the training time required.]

Required time with an instructor does not cause the character to gain proficiency faster, but for more advanced students they may choose to continue training with an Instructor causing time spent training to count as 1.5x the time, so 2 days of training with an instructor would give 3 days of progress.

Instructors must be proficient with the weapons they are training others in and must have BAB +1 to Instruct others in Simple Weapons, BAB +3 for Martial Weapons, or BAB +6 for Exotic Weapons.

Instructors must be proficient with the armor and shields they are training others in and must have BAB +1 to instruct others in Light Armors, BAB +2 for Medium Armors and Shields, BAB +4 for Heavy Armors and Tower Shields, or BAB +6 for Exotic Armor and Shields.

An Instructor may instruct 10 characters at a time during a training session, increasing the number of characters they can instruct by 5 for every 3 BAB they possess over the minimum BAB to instruct in the type of weapon proficiency they're instructing in.

Instructors may be assisted by characters who are proficient with the weapons they are training others in but who do not have the BAB requirements to be Instructors themselves. Every Assistant can allow an instructor to train an additional 5 characters. [Default to either hireling rules or half the Per Diem Cost of an Instructor for Assistants.]

Cost of Instruction: 2 options, either hire them per diem to train a large number of students or pay their cost to take an individual on as a pupil.

Per Diem Cost: Simple: 1 gp/day, Martial 5 gp/day, Exotic 10 gp/day. [All GP values here are placeholders.]

Per Pupil Cost: Average the cost of the weapons that the student will become proficient with, multiply this average by the number of weapon proficiencies being gained, multiply again by 10 and then 1x for Simple Weapons and Light Armor and Shields, 2x for Martial Weapons, Medium Armor, and Tower Shields, 3x for Heavy Armor, and 5x for Exotic Weapons, Exotic Armor, and Exotic Shields.

This is the base cost of Instruction and is multiplied by 4 for characters who require instruction for the entire training time or who use an Instructor the whole time to speed training, is multiplied by 2 for characters who require instruction for half the training time and do not make use of further instruction, or is multiplied by 1 for characters who require instruction for 1/4 of the training time and do not make use of further instruction.

As the character trains the non-proficiency penalty reduces by 1 for every quarter of the training duration completed until the training is completed and the character acquires the weapon proficiency.

A character may train weapons proficiency and armor or shield proficiency simultaneously, but must pay the necessary costs for each. A character may only engage in one form of weapon proficiency training and one form of armor or shield proficiency training at a time.

If a character's training is interrupted for longer than a month, they no longer count as having received initial instruction and must find instruction again if they required instruction to gain the proficiency they were training for.

Special Alterations:

Spiked Chains(D&D 3e & 3.5 only), Dragon Chains, Drow Scorpion Chains, Rope Darts, Meteor Hammers, and Kusari-Gama require a specific feat "Rope/Chain Weapon Proficiency" to in order to gain proficiency with them and cannot be trained in using this set of rules.

Minotaur Greathammers and Talenta Sharrashes(sp?) require proficiency with the weapon in question to be gained a second time in order to gain access to both the expanded critical range and the x4 critical multiplier.

Simple Weapon Proficiency feat still gives proficiency with all Simple Weapons instantly regardless of the character's BAB at the time of taking it.

Martial Weapon Proficiency feat now gives proficiency with either all melee Martial Weapons or all ranged Martial Weapons.

Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat now gives proficiency with all Exotic Weapons in a given Weapon Group.

Simple Weapons:

BAB +0: 3 Months of training for proficiency with all Simple Weapons. Half that for only ranged or only melee.
1 Month of training for Simple Weapons in a single Weapon Group.
1 Week of training for a single Simple Weapon.
BAB +3: 1 Month of training for proficiency with all Simple Weapons. Half that for only ranged or only melee
1 Week of training for Simple Weapons in a single Weapon Group.
1 Day of training for a single Simple Weapon.
BAB +6: 1 Week of training for proficiency with all Simple Weapons. Half that for only ranged or only melee.
1 Day of training for Simple Weapons in a single Weapon Group
1 Hour of training for a single Simple Weapon
BAB +9: 1 Day of training for proficiency with all Simple Weapons. Half that for only ranged or only melee.
1 Hour of training for Simple Weapons in a single Weapon Group.
10 Minutes of training for a single Simple Weapon.
BAB +12: Proficient with all Simple Weapons.



Martial Weapons:

BAB +0: 1 Year of training for proficiency with all Martial Weapons. Half that for ranged only or melee only.*
6 Months of training for proficiency with Martial Weapons in a single Weapon Group.*
3 Months of training for a single Martial Weapon.*
BAB +3: 6 Months of training for proficiency with all Martial Weapons. Half that for ranged only or melee only.*
1 Month of training for proficiency with Martial Weapons in a single Weapon Group.*
1 Week of training for a single Martial Weapon.*
BAB +6: 3 Months of training for proficiency with all Martial Weapons. Half that for only ranged or only melee.*
1 Month of training for Martial Weapons in a single Weapon Group.*
1 Week of training for a single Martial Weapon.*
BAB +9: 1 Month of training for proficiency with all Martial Weapons. Half that for only ranged or only melee.*
1 Week of training for Martial Weapons in a single Weapon Group.*
1 Day of training for a single Martial Weapon.
BAB +12: 1 Week of training for proficiency with all Martial Weapons. Half that for only ranged or only melee.*
1 Day of training for Martial Weapons in a single Weapon Group.
1 Hour of training for a single Martial Weapon.
BAB +15: 1 Day of training for proficiency with all Martial Weapons. Half that for only ranged or only melee.
1 Hour of training for Martial Weapons in a single Weapon Group.
10 Minutes of training for a single Martial Weapon.
BAB +18: Proficient with all Martial Weapons.


*Proficiency with all Simple Weapons halves the times required for gaining proficiency with Martial Weapons, but cannot reduce the time required to less than a day.

Exotic Weapons:


BAB +0: 1 Year of training for proficiency with a single Exotic Weapon.*
BAB +3: 1 Year of training for proficiency with Exotic Weapons in a single Weapon Group.*
6 Months of training for a single Exotic Weapon.*
BAB +6: 6 Months of training for proficiency with Exotic Weapons in a single Weapon Group.*
3 Months of training for a single Exotic Weapon.*
BAB +9: 3 Month of training for proficiency with Exotic Weapons in a single Weapon Group.*
1 Month of training for a single Exotic Weapon.*
BAB +12: 1 Month of training for proficiency with Exotic Weapons in a single Weapon Group.*
1 Week of training for a single Exotic Weapon.*
BAB +15: 1 Week of training for proficiency with Exotic Weapons in a single Weapon Group.*
1 Day of training for a single Exotic Weapon.
BAB +18: 1 Day of training for proficiency with Exotic Weapons in a single Weapon Group.
1 Hour of training for a single Exotic Weapon.



*Proficiency with all Martial Weapons halves the times required for gaining proficiency with Exotic Weapons, but cannot reduce the time required to less than a day.




Light Armor:

BAB +0: 3 Months of training for proficiency with all Light Armors. 1 Month of training for a single Light Armor.
BAB +3: 1 Month of training for proficiency with all Light Armors. 1 Week of training for a single Light Armor.
BAB +6: 1 Week of training for proficiency with all Light Armors. 1 Day of training for a single Light Armor.
BAB +9: 1 Day of training for proficiency with all Light Armors. 1 Hour of training for a single Light Armor.


Medium Armor:

BAB +0: 6 Months of training for proficiency with all Medium Armors.*
3 Months of training for a single Medium Armor.*
BAB +3: 3 Months of training for proficiency with all Medium Armors.*
1 Month of training for a single Medium Armor.*
BAB +6: 1 Month of training for proficiency with all Medium Armors.*
1 Week of training for a single Medium Armor.*
BAB +9: 1 Week of training for proficiency with all Medium Armors.*
1 Day of training for a single Medium Armor.
BAB +12: 1 Day of training for proficiency with all Medium Armors.
1 Hour of training for a single Medium Armor.


*Proficiency with all Light Armors halves the times required for gaining proficiency with Medium Armors, but cannot reduce the time required to less than a day.

Heavy Armor:

BAB +0: 1 Year of training for proficiency with all Heavy Armors.*
6 Months of training for a single Heavy Armor.*
BAB +3: 6 Months of training for proficiency with all Heavy Armors.*
3 Months of training for a single Heavy Armor.*
BAB +6: 3 Months of training for proficiency with all Heavy Armors.*
1 Month of training for a single Heavy Armor.*
BAB +9: 1 Month of training for proficiency with all Heavy Armors.*
1 Week of training for a single Heavy Armor.*
BAB +12: 1 Week of training for proficiency with all Heavy Armors.*
1 Day of training for a single Heavy Armor.
BAB +15: 1 Day of training for proficiency with all Heavy Armors.
1 Hour of training for a single Heavy Armor.


*Proficiency with all Medium Armors halves the times required for gaining proficiency with Heavy Armors, but cannot reduce the time required to less than a day.

Shields:

BAB +0: 3 Months of training for proficiency with all Shields* or Tower Shield** proficiency.
1 Month of training for a single Shield.
BAB +3: 1 Month of training for proficiency with all Shields* or Tower Shield** proficiency.
1 Week of training for a single Shield
BAB +6: 1 Week of training for proficiency with all Shields* or Tower Shield** proficiency.
1 Day of training for a single Shield.
BAB +9: 1 Day of training for proficiency with all Shields or Tower Shield proficiency.
1 Hour of training for a single Shield.


*Proficiency with all Light Armors halves the times required for gaining proficiency with Shields, but cannot reduce the time required to less than a day.
**Proficiency with all Heavy Armors halves the times required for gaining proficiency with Tower Shields, but cannot reduce the time required to less than a day.

Exotic Shields:

BAB +0: 6 Months of training for proficiency with a single Exotic Shield.*
BAB +3: 3 Months of training for proficiency with a single Exotic Shield.*
BAB +6: 1 Month of training for proficiency with a single Exotic Shield.*
BAB +9: 1 Week of training for proficiency with a single Exotic Shield.*
BAB +12: 1 Day of training for proficiency with a single Exotic Shield.
BAB +15: 1 Hour of training for proficiency with a single Exotic Shield.


*Proficiency with All Shields and Tower Shields halves the time required for gaining proficiency with Exotic Shields, but cannot reduce the time required to less than a day.

Exotic Armor:

BAB +0: 1 Year of training for proficiency with a single Exotic Armor.*
BAB +3: 6 Months of training for proficiency with a single Exotic Armor.*
BAB +6: 3 Months of training for proficiency with a single Exotic Armor.*
BAB +9: 1 Month of training for proficiency with a single Exotic Armor.*
BAB +12: 1 Week of training for proficiency with a single Exotic Armor.*
BAB +15: 1 Day of training for proficiency with a single Exotic Armor.
BAB + 18: 1 Hour of training for proficiency with a single Exotic Armor.


*Proficiency with all Light, Medium, and Heavy Armors halves the time required for gaining proficiency with Exotic Armors, but cannot reduce the time required to less than a day.

[LOTRfan]

Speaking of the Gladiator's Mask, if you're allowed to use third party (I think that's what athas.org counts as?), the free Dark Sun Campaign Setting pdf has a new Gladiator class, which grants you proficiency with five exotic weapons of your choice over the course of 20 levels. You get your first exotic weapon proficiency at 1st, if you just want to dip to get it.

[Extra Anchovies]

Speaking of the Gladiator's Mask, if you're allowed to use third party (I think that's what athas.org counts as?), the free Dark Sun Campaign Setting pdf has a new Gladiator class, which grants you proficiency with five exotic weapons of your choice over the course of 20 levels. You get your first exotic weapon proficiency at 1st, if you just want to dip to get it.

Where is this pdf, so that I may peruse it?

[Solaris]

Where is this pdf, so that I may peruse it?

http://www.athas.org/ is the site, if I'm not mistaken.

[LOTRfan]

http://www.athas.org/ is the site, if I'm not mistaken.

Yeah. Go to the Products tab, and select Rulebooks. It's listed as Dark Sun 3.

Other cool things inside include Nurturing Seeds, which was included in a "cool cantrips/orisons" thread recently for it's potential to terraform entire worlds, given enough time. It also has the Mul (Half-Dwarf) and Pterran (anthropomorphic wingless pterodactyl) races.

And the setting fluff, of course. It's officially endorsed by WotC, I think?

[Greenish]

Being an elf covers it.Elves do not get weapon familiarity as a racial feature*. They get weapon proficiencies, but those only apply to the specific weapons listed.

Improved Weapon Familiarity from CW would allow an elf to treat all elf weapons as martial.


*Except for Valenar elves of Eberron, who get to treat Valenar double scimitar as martial.

[ghanjrho]

It may be Pathfinder only, but the opalescent white pyramid grants proficiency for 10k. If you already have martial proficiency, the cracked version gives familiarity for 1500.

[MrSinister]

As a DM in the past, I have let a fighter-type character in love with a specific exotic weapon trade in their martial weapon proficiency for the exotic weapon proficiency for that weapon. I mean, chances are, if they want to wield that particular weapon, they are never going to pick up another one anyway. I cannot recall which weapon but it wasn't game-breaking in the slightest. No big. Try that approach.

[Ssalarn]

One of the common houserules I've seen used is creating a new " Exotic Weapon Training" skill and giving the character proficiency with an additional exotic weapon for each rank spent. Given that most exotic weapons aren't actually worth a feat and the classes who most want them are often the ones most starved for skills, it creates a pretty reasonable balance between cost and benefit.

[Irk]

Exoticist fighter can be used with thug or sneak attack fighter, as it still gets a fighter bonus feat AND the 4 exotic weapons proficiencies.

[Curmudgeon]

Justiciar of Taiia (Deities and Demigods, pages 205-206) gets proficiency with any single weapon at 1st level of this prestige class.

[Mizr]

Or if you don't feel like burning a feat or a level, the Skillful weapon enchant from Complete Arcane will allow you to wield the weapon as though you were proficient with it.

[Iwasforger03]

If pathfinder half elf alternate racial trait. or base class Magus with Kensei Archetype.

[Solaris]

As a DM in the past, I have let a fighter-type character in love with a specific exotic weapon trade in their martial weapon proficiency for the exotic weapon proficiency for that weapon. I mean, chances are, if they want to wield that particular weapon, they are never going to pick up another one anyway. I cannot recall which weapon but it wasn't game-breaking in the slightest. No big. Try that approach.

Unearthed Arcana's Weapon Group Proficiencies (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/weaponGroupFeats.htm) are really good for that, and I generally go with that when I'm the GM.
Being as I'm not the GM this time...

[Darrin]

There's also the lesser/unawakened sunsword from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. If you're proficient with shortsword, you're proficient with the sunsword. Only costs 3000 GP, so if you subtract the 2300 GP for a +1 weapon, you could argue this proficiency ability is only 700 GP. Or you can add Morphing (+1 enhancement, MIC) and switch the bastard sword into an elven thinblade.

Wand chamber (100 GP, Dungeonscape) + wand of master's touch (750 GP, Spell Compendium) could also work in a pinch.

[SinsI]

I'd say if you have Rapier and Longsword proficiencies, you get Thinblade proficiency as a bonus.

[The Insanity]

Ninja Spy gets a few exotic weapon prificiencies.

[Mehangel]

I'd say if you have Rapier and Longsword proficiencies, you get Thinblade proficiency as a bonus.

I usually houserule this differently. For example, If you are proficient in either a longsword or a rapier, you get a -2 instead of a -4 penalty while wielding the thinblade. If you have proficiency in both the rapier and the longsword, you dont take any penalty to attacks, but are still not proficient (for the purpose of qualifying for feats.

On the other-hand however, if you have feats like Weapon Focus (thinblade), their effects also apply whenever wielding a rapier or a longsword.

[Jeff the Green]

I'd say if you have Rapier and Longsword proficiencies, you get Thinblade proficiency as a bonus.

Why not just make it a martial weapon, then, and give it as a racial bonus to elves along with rapier and longsword? :smallconfused: The only difference will be corner cases like Exotic Weapon Master.

[Coidzor]

Why not just make it a martial weapon, then, and give it as a racial bonus to elves along with rapier and longsword? :smallconfused: The only difference will be corner cases like Exotic Weapon Master.

Single-classed Rogues are proficient with rapiers but not longswords as well, IIRC.

[SinsI]

Why not just make it a martial weapon, then, and give it as a racial bonus to elves along with rapier and longsword? :smallconfused: The only difference will be corner cases like Exotic Weapon Master.

It would make sense if it is given to elves instead of rapier and longsword. After all, it is a racial weapon - so at least some of that race are going to train with it instead of with the more common varieties.