Mutants and Masterminds 3rd Edition: Building a Balanced Character

[TekHed]

Greetings, and Merry Christmas for those who celebrate it!

I recently picked up the Hero's Handbook and Power Profiles for M&M 3rd edition.

I'm an old hat RPer so it's not hard to understand the system, but I'm hoping I can get some advice around building a particular character as my first attempt.

I've had this concept for awhile across a few systems but thought it would be great to try out here!

One issue I've already run into: Not enough power points. It's a rather complex concept and I've noticed that the example PL10/150 point characters are all rather basic and dare I say it generic, albeit strong in their niche. The Paragon for example is a nice baseline flying brick, but unlike a proper Superman pastiche lacks the laser eyes, super speed, etc.

I had the thought that if I were to request a PbP game for example, I might ask for a certain power level, but double the usual points to allow for more breadth and complexity of concept, though I'm not sure if that would grossly unbalance things.

For this idea, I'm thinking of a PL12, so a "Heavy Hitter" type game, along the lines of the X-Menat their "mature" power level.

The biggest thing that is tripping me up though is the tradeoff part. My concept is a cross between a powerhouse brick type, and an energy projector/manipulator type (hence thinking I probably need 2x power points but don't want to break the scale on PL).

What I have yet to understand is how to make an *effective* character...it seems like if I want to be super strong and tough...I won't be able to hit anything worth a damn. Likewise if I want a really powerful energy blast, it seems like I won't be able to ever hit with it!

I was hoping someone might help me find the sweet spot for effectiveness in this regards, and maybe help me get a first draft of my character worked out in this new system.

Anyone feeling like helping a brother out?

Thanks muchly,

- Tek :smallsmile:

[Sith_Happens]

Trade offs can definitely be concept-limiting sometimes, but they're the one hard balancing factor the game has so the best general advice I can give is to suck it up.

For attack trade-offs specifically, though, maneuvers are your friend. If you want to be damage-shifted (i.e.- have a higher effect rank than attack bonus) then go ahead, just don't shift too far and make sure to have the Accurate Attack and All-Out Attack advantages for when you do need more attack bonus.

As a side note, moderate damage and toughness shifts are actually statistically favorable due to the fact that resistance checks are graded and attack checks aren't (unless you have Multiattack). So your flying brick will actually have somewhat better odds in most fights than a fragile speedster would.

As for stretching the points you have to get the powers you want, that's what arrays are for. Any attacks you want that involve punching or kicking things should be alternate effects of your Strength score, while your various energy projection attacks can probably be in a single array together.

[TekHed]

First of all, thanks for replying!


Trade offs can definitely be concept-limiting sometimes, but they're the one hard balancing factor the game has so the best general advice I can give is to suck it up.

How does it work in actual play though? So far it seems the only downside I can see to what otherwise seems like one of the best superhero rpgs I've seen. HERO/Champions was similar in that there were preset caps meaning everyone was usually at the same power level. But really...it seems like someone who is really good at martial arts, say Batman is going to hit all of the time but might be able to damage a real brick, and the brick could cream batman but will never hit. I get that the comics are like that, but what fun is it in playing the super strong guy that never connects, or the guy that always hits but with no actual effectiveness?


For attack trade-offs specifically, though, maneuvers are your friend. If you want to be damage-shifted (i.e.- have a higher effect rank than attack bonus) then go ahead, just don't shift too far and make sure to have the Accurate Attack and All-Out Attack advantages for when you do need more attack bonus.


I haven't gotten into the advantages section yet so I will check that out, but are you saying that those advantages will let your total attack bonus+effect to exceed the PL limit?


As a side note, moderate damage and toughness shifts are actually statistically favorable due to the fact that resistance checks are graded and attack checks aren't (unless you have Multiattack). So your flying brick will actually have somewhat better odds in most fights than a fragile speedster would.


Could you please elaborate on this more? Remember I'm a total noob trying to figure this stuff out. By moderate damage and toughness shifts, you mean instead of 10/10 attack damage and 10/10 parry/toughness to be slightly shifted towards damage and toughness...like the example paragon/powerhouse at 8/12 and 6/14 respectively?

I don't understand what you mean by statistically favorable due to graded/not graded...? Why is that better for the brick than the speedster (who presumably will be able to hit but with puny damage)?


As for stretching the points you have to get the powers you want, that's what arrays are for. Any attacks you want that involve punching or kicking things should be alternate effects of your Strength score, while your various energy projection attacks can probably be in a single array together.

I get that, but it's still not enough for a lot of my ideas which tend to be conceptually complex. By arrays I'm assuming you mean alternate effects (which is similar to HERO power frameworks...in fact M&M feels a lot like Champions only with the math streamlined and simplified). That doesn't help you though if you want to be able to fly AND blast AND do something else at the same time. Arrays seem best for groups of attacks, or even Mages...which in a way seems like the most powerful thing to play because you can come up with pretty much any alternate effect or stunt and call it a new spell (Magic was also the most powerful/easiest to stunt in the old Marvel Super heroes RPG).

Maybe it would be best if I just share what I've come up with so far...

The concept is essentially a cross between a Colossus type of character and a Magneto type of character.

His body is permanently in a metal form, of a new fictional element that is like the ultimate room temperature superconductor. He also has the ability to generate electricity for lighting effects which also turns his body into a superhero level electromagnet with various effects.

In terms of the balance issue, if we take PL12, then an even split for attack/effect would be 12/12. So if I want a character who is a powerhouse, but still able to hit his target reasonably well, then would 8/16 be workable? Or is 10/14 the better choice?

Anyway, here's the breakdown I have so far:

First we start with being permanently transformed into metal...

- Density Increase: I'm thinking between 6 ranks (3 tons) and 8 ranks (12 tons) +1 Sustained and -1 Permanent cancel each other out, so that is 12-16 points.
(as an aside every 4 ranks gives a -1 to speed rank...is that ALL speed ranks, or just walking? If I have flight, do I have to buy 2 more ranks to cancel this penalty out?)

- Immunities: Fortitude effects, basically a construct, plus Immune to aging (if that isn't covered under Fortitude), and Critical Hits, for a total of 33 points. (From what I can tell, just buying this power means I can still heal normally yes?)

-The first aspect of his power is that in addition to being metal, he generates vast amounts of electricity. So add Immunity to Electricity for another 10 points. And the Meisner Effect makes him immune to magnetic effects as well...another 10.

- The electrified body power from Power Profiles costs 5 points per rank for AC current which we'll say this is. Since it is a reactive affliction that doesn't require an attack roll, then I'm capped at 12 ranks, so 60 points.

He can also toss direct lightning bolts: ranged damage...a lightning bolt is listed as 15 ranks, so that would be a 9/15 split... let's add penetrating for a total of 45 points.

Here's where it gets interesting...by channeling currents through his superconductor body he becomes a super superconducting electromagnet.

For starters he can levitate/fly (subtle), at about 1,000 mph, so that's 9 ranks + a flat +2 for a total of 20 points 24 if the density penalty applies to flight as well.

He also has an MRI like vision scan: 4 points

We can make his lightning power an array which will have for starters an EMP, Move Object (Precise, not limited to only ferrous things because of para and diamagnetic effects), Deflection, Storm, and Railgun...so another 5 points.

So far we have about 207 points of powers, and we haven't talked attributes, skills, or advantages yet.

Speaking of Attributes let's start with Strength...according to the book a rank of 7 is max human, but in strength terms that would be lifting 3 tons!!! So, max human strength is probably about 4, so we'll go with that. With 8 ranks of Density that puts him at Str 12...but for a PL12 powerhouse we can do better so we'll say that the transformation actually gives him another +4 with Enhanced Attribute. 16 points

Stamina We can set at 4+4 which with 8 ranks in Density gives us 16 toughness. 16 points

I probably don't want to go much lower than 8/16 for toughness/parry, which is where it gets wonky...ideally for the concept I'd want him to be densely armored AND project a force field...but I'm at my toughness limit...so can I just buy a sustained impervious for his aggregate toughness? And would that just be an extra 16 points?

Agility...probably not too Agile...2 ranks for 4 points

Dex can be 2 ranks too (can buy up to PL more cheaply using skills yes?) 4 points.

Fighting and Intellect at 8 each (his concept is he was a scientist), 32 points

Awareness 6 12 points

Presence 4 8 points.

That's an extra 108 points for a total so far of 315 points. If we are going for 2x normal points at PL12 that leaves 45 points for skills and advantages (not sure if that is a lot. Probably add a couple features like sense direction, and power devices).

I don't see how it would be possible to do such a character with such diverse abilities for less points at that PL...I'd have to nerd my effects lower than a more narrowly specialized example would and be ineffective. And of course, I don't want things like Flight, or the Shock Field to be part of the array.

But like I said, I'm a noob. Maybe there is a better way?

[Runeclaw]

There are a few things you can do, but yeah, fundamentally, your concept is too powerful for the average M&M campaign.

Basically you are wanting to play a character who is super strong, super tough, flies extremely fast, has a powerful ranged attack, is immune to a whole lot of stuff, and is, on top of it all, very intelligent. That may just be a bit much.

Some point savings things I can suggest:

Lose "Penetrating". In my opinion, it's a waste of points (as is its counterpart "Impervious"). If you have a rank 15 attack, an opponent would have to have 30 ranks of Impervious Protection for your Penetrating to make a difference. If your opponent has 30 ranks of Impervious Protection, you are in the wrong damn combat. And he will probably make his Toughness saves regardless.

Immunity Electricity and Immunity Magnetic are both situational. Do you need to be immune to them both at the same time? Put them into an array.

Put most of your Flight into the array with your lightning for a turbo boost effect. Leave just enough ranks of it outside the array as a separate power for reasonable degree of tactical movement. You're not going to be blasting people with lightning when you're flying 1,000 MPH. Probably.

Put the Enhanced Strength into the array too (and make all of his non-density strength enhanced). You don't need to be strong and blasty at the same time.

If you want to be good at everything, you simply MUST make use of arrays (alternate powers).

Also, if you're immune to Fortitude, you can consider dropping Stamina down to "Absent" and then buying ranks of Protection to bring your Toughness save back up. So instead of Stamina 8, have it be "Absent" with Protection 13. "Absent" gives you 10 points back (similar to having dropped it to negative 5), so this nets out at costing only 3 points. And one rank of Regeneration, though, or you'll be unable to heal normally. You'll lose the ability to Extra Effort, which is a painful loss, but you'll pick up free immunities to Fatigue/Exhaustion. Even if you don't want to do that, you could technically drop your Stamina to -5 and accomplish the same thing, without the need for Regeneration and without losing Extra Effort (this somehow strikes me as cheesier but whatever). Stamina is basically (exactly) equal to one rank of Protection and one rank of Fortitude, so if you don't need the Fortitude, you are wasting points by purchasing it. At the very very least, leave Stamina as 0 and purchases ranks of Protection instead.

As for trade-offs, having both stats at PL is, basically by definition, being good at both hitting and damaging (where good is a relative term based on your PL). Tradeoffs are only for concepts that really make more sense to have one higher than the other. Even then, though, they shouldn't trade off too far, as you've noted. Hurting someone else is an AND situation - you must hit them AND hurt them - so you want both percentages to be reasonably balanced. Power Attack and Accurate attack (as either maneuvers or Advantages) are for shifting a few points around. And All-Out Attack is great when you don't expect to be counter attacked or just don't care if you are. All-Out Attack and Power Attack are two great flavors that taste great together, allowing you to effectively shift 5 points from your Dodge/Parry scores to your Damage.

There are only a handful of ways to increase your total attack and damage states beyond the PL limits. These include: Improved Critical (reasonably cheap, each rank is effectively a .25 (.05*5) damage boost above cap) and Multiattack (if you can convince your GM on it - and it's expensive). Favored Terrain will give you an attack boost above PL ('urban' is nice and cheesy). 'Linked' (to Affliction or Weaken) is a good (if cheesy) way of increasing your overall combat effectiveness (again kind of expensive).

Defense, on the other hand, is an OR situation - you only need to avoid the attack OR resist it, so it makes better mathematical sense to shift more to one side or the other of the equation. This can leave you a bit high and dry in non-standard situations (i.e. shifting to Toughness instead of Dodge/Parry can screw you over a bit when someone comes at you with a targeted Will attack). There aren't a lot of ways to improve your defenses beyond PL caps (Immunities do, to an extent. Partial immunity to damage is effective, but expensive, for a real brick. Regeneration obviously lets you bounce back quickly when you do take hits. And there are a handful of defensive powers that make you untouchable except when they don't work (invisibility, incorporeal - but these don't apply for your concept). There is basically no point to being armored *and* having a force field, unless you split the ranks between them so that they still add up to PL.

M&M is a great system but, even more so than some other systems, it is highly reliant on working with your GM to craft your character, so there is a limit to how much abstract character creation you can really do without a GM's input.

[TekHed]

There are a few things you can do, but yeah, fundamentally, your concept is too powerful for the average M&M campaign.

Basically you are wanting to play a character who is super strong, super tough, flies extremely fast, has a powerful ranged attack, is immune to a whole lot of stuff, and is, on top of it all, very intelligent. That may just be a bit much.

:smallfrown:

That is disheartening to hear. But yeah like I said not meant for an "average" game but one on par with more experienced X-Men power levels. As I mentioned both a brick type and an energy projector/controller type, which is why I thought double points would work...if you look at the example characters they are all very narrowly defined, which to me is boring. I've played superhero RPGs long enough that straight speedster, or straight brick, or straight blaster just is too vanilla. And besides this whole concept is rooted in actual science which I love.




Lose "Penetrating". In my opinion, it's a waste of points (as is its counterpart "Impervious"). If you have a rank 15 attack, an opponent would have to have 30 ranks of Impervious Protection for your Penetrating to make a difference. If your opponent has 30 ranks of Impervious Protection, you are in the wrong damn combat. And he will probably make his Toughness saves regardless.


Huh, ok. So this is more like Aberrant's puny human rule.


Immunity Electricity and Immunity Magnetic are both situational. Do you need to be immune to them both at the same time? Put them into an array.


Here is where we start butting into concept though. Immune to electricity? yes. All the time. He is a metal giant who channels electricity. At no point should he get hit with electricity and it hurts him. By my understanding with an array it's either/or...so if I have the array set to blast and shoot a lightning bolt at someone who reflects it back at me, it should not then hurt me.

The immune to magnetic fields is an extrapolation of the mesiner effect...basically superconducting electromagnets negate magnetic fields inside of themselves, even as they project one outwards...so yeah at no point should another magnetic controller be able to mess with my metal man.


Put most of your Flight into the array with your lightning for a turbo boost effect. Leave just enough ranks of it outside the array as a separate power for reasonable degree of tactical movement. You're not going to be blasting people with lightning when you're flying 1,000 MPH. Probably.


I could kind of see this, but it would then negate the possibility of an ariel dogfight, flying and blasting with other flying blasting characters. Also, maybe its me but 1,000 mph isn't THAT fast compared to real flying brick types like Superman.


Put the Enhanced Strength into the array too (and make all of his non-density strength enhanced). You don't need to be strong and blasty at the same time.


This sounds like a horrible idea... maybe if it was a strength based attack...but what happens if I need to be holding up some heavy object from falling on people, and need to blast someone at the same time?


If you want to be good at everything, you simply MUST make use of arrays (alternate powers).


Except as I noted above, if you are a blaster type, you want to be able to move, have a defense, and shoot all at the same time. Since my concept is a cross between Colossus and Magneto, I shouldn't somehow get weak every time I want to use my magnetic powers.


Also, if you're immune to Fortitude, you can consider dropping Stamina down to "Absent" and then buying ranks of Protection to bring your Toughness save back up. So instead of Stamina 8, have it be "Absent" with Protection 13. "Absent" gives you 10 points back (similar to having dropped it to negative 5), so this nets out at costing only 3 points. And one rank of Regeneration, though, or you'll be unable to heal normally. You'll lose the ability to Extra Effort, which is a painful loss, but you'll pick up free immunities to Fatigue/Exhaustion. Even if you don't want to do that, you could technically drop your Stamina to -5 and accomplish the same thing, without the need for Regeneration and without losing Extra Effort (this somehow strikes me as cheesier but whatever). Stamina is basically (exactly) equal to one rank of Protection and one rank of Fortitude, so if you don't need the Fortitude, you are wasting points by purchasing it. At the very very least, leave Stamina as 0 and purchases ranks of Protection instead.



I considered this, but I found that the rules about what is and is not considered to be a fortitude effect to be rather not well organized... Seems like it would be only marginally cheaper to do it that way, no? And isn't immune to fatigue already included under Immune to Fortitude? Granted, this is a costly effect...but being made of solid metal it makes sense I wouldn't eat or breathe, or be able to be diseased/poisoned etc.




As for trade-offs, having both stats at PL is, basically by definition, being good at both hitting and damaging (where good is a relative term based on your PL). Tradeoffs are only for concepts that really make more sense to have one higher than the other. Even then, though, they shouldn't trade off too far, as you've noted. Hurting someone else is an AND situation - you must hit them AND hurt them - so you want both percentages to be reasonably balanced. Power Attack and Accurate attack (as either maneuvers or Advantages) are for shifting a few points around. And All-Out Attack is great when you don't expect to be counter attacked or just don't care if you are. All-Out Attack and Power Attack are two great flavors that taste great together, allowing you to effectively shift 5 points from your Dodge/Parry scores to your Damage.


This was helpful thanks! As a brick type who is meant to take and shrug off hits rather than dodge them out of the way it makes sense to shift this way.


There are only a handful of ways to increase your total attack and damage states beyond the PL limits. These include: Improved Critical (reasonably cheap, each rank is effectively a .25 (.05*5) damage boost above cap) and Multiattack (if you can convince your GM on it - and it's expensive). Favored Terrain will give you an attack boost above PL ('urban' is nice and cheesy). 'Linked' (to Affliction or Weaken) is a good (if cheesy) way of increasing your overall combat effectiveness (again kind of expensive).


It was my understanding that having the shock field weaken (from the power Profiles Book) is reactive to being touched, so this would be automatically linked to my physical attacks...


Defense, on the other hand, is an OR situation - you only need to avoid the attack OR resist it, so it makes better mathematical sense to shift more to one side or the other of the equation. This can leave you a bit high and dry in non-standard situations (i.e. shifting to Toughness instead of Dodge/Parry can screw you over a bit when someone comes at you with a targeted Will attack). There aren't a lot of ways to improve your defenses beyond PL caps (Immunities do, to an extent. Partial immunity to damage is effective, but expensive, for a real brick. Regeneration obviously lets you bounce back quickly when you do take hits. And there are a handful of defensive powers that make you untouchable except when they don't work (invisibility, incorporeal - but these don't apply for your concept). There is basically no point to being armored *and* having a force field, unless you split the ranks between them so that they still add up to PL.


Which is it seems the one place this otherwise awesome game seems to be breaking down for me. Iron Man has burly armor AND projects a force field. Yet there seems to be no way to show how that would be a worthy thing to have in this game since it seems that regardless of power level everyone is going to have maxed attacks and defenses (same as Champions). This ALSO seems to be why I'd need more points...sure upping the PL givers more points, but you spend more to have more ranks...as I've noted the example characters are very narrowly defined...in order to both increase power level/buy more ranks AND be able to buy a broader diversity of powers (that aren't limited to one-at-a-time arrays), you simply need more points to spread around...


M&M is a great system but, even more so than some other systems, it is highly reliant on working with your GM to craft your character, so there is a limit to how much abstract character creation you can really do without a GM's input.

Well my hope was that if I could find a way to build a character I like, I could then go about hunting for a GM willing to take on the necessary parameters....that's how I've gotten most of my PbP these days...

[TekHed]

*bump*...?

[Jlerpy]

You really don't think it's weird that it's too expensive to build someone who's Colossus AND Magneto (but without Magneto's limitations) on a reasonable number of points? I'd probably put Magneto himself at the PL 13-15 level.

It's only a small thing, but I'd only charge 2 points for Immunity to Magnetic effects, as it's far from common.

Looking up Density in the Heroes Handbook, I'm alarmed to see they treated it as weirdly altered Growth, which is ... odd. Anyway...
I'm not seeing the speed effect you're talking about.

I don't have any of the Power Profiles books, so I don't know the details of Electrified Body, but do you actually need it at full PL? That's an expensive power.

Do you really need Strength 16? Why assume that he was a very strong guy before his transformation? 1600 tonnes is a LOT. Strength 12 is still 100 tonnes, which is still loads (and already stronger than Colossus, last I heard).

[Jlerpy]

The power concept is pretty cool though.
I think you're just scaling it up too much for a game of that PL.

[Cirrylius]

I agree. Comparing yourself to Superman and Magneto isn't really feasible; they're both around PL 14, Magneto is a Controller's Controller, and Clark is a Paragon's Paragon- and they're both stupid versatile examples.

I'd second (third?) a variable array for flight,blasting, and electric body at least- just make sure you do the math ahead of time.

Drop your strength and intelligence, and put at least half the savings from intelligence back into technology and expertise (science). Alternately, alter his background to "unfortunate lab tech" or even "guinea pig" (I agree, it's not as empowering).

Consider a disadvantage for your magnetic immunity, tied to a contested roll or a fort save or something... and then beef it up as far as it'll go. That way your average gadgeteer w/ optional supermagnet won't be a threat, but someone like Magneto's gonna be able to go LOL NO NOW NOW UR MADE OF MONOPOLES the way he almost certainly would in a comic.

[TekHed]

You really don't think it's weird that it's too expensive to build someone who's Colossus AND Magneto (but without Magneto's limitations) on a reasonable number of points? I'd probably put Magneto himself at the PL 13-15 level.

I mean, define "reasonable." It seems to me that according to the example characters given, the points allotted are enough to have one very narrowly defined niche. Maybe 3-4 powers at most. That was why I figured one would need double to have a game with "dual-archetype" characters, i.e. my brick/blaster, or someone could be a controller/speedster, or a psychic/warrior, for some examples.

15 was defined as world-protectors, so I'd put a game at that level tom be similar to The Authority. I was hoping for something along the level of The Ultimates. I'd also point out that whatever limits you think Magneto has, he most assuredly does not. In fact I got the idea of Paramagnetism allowing manipulation of non-ferrous substances from Magneto's description in the old Marvel Super Heroes RPG.

Also check this (http://www.magnetowasright.com/pages/analysis/the-science-of-magneto.php) out.


It's only a small thing, but I'd only charge 2 points for Immunity to Magnetic effects, as it's far from common.


Hmm...so long as the GM agrees right? :smallsmile:


Looking up Density in the Heroes Handbook, I'm alarmed to see they treated it as weirdly altered Growth, which is ... odd. Anyway...
I'm not seeing the speed effect you're talking about.

In the power profiles book, size is still listed as giving extra mass but without the size...and says that for every 4 ranks your speed rank drops by 1...doesn't say if it applies only to pedestrian ambulation or all forms of locomotion.


I don't have any of the Power Profiles books, so I don't know the details of Electrified Body, but do you actually need it at full PL? That's an expensive power.


It was my understanding that, much like Champions, if you DON'T max out your powers to the limit cap, then you are going to be underpowered, and thus ineffective. In other words, any powers that aren't at that level aren't really going to be effective, and are therefore a waste of points. Please do correct me if I'm mistaken.

The Shock-Field power listed in Power Profiles is made as: Reaction Cumulative Affliction (Resisted and Overcome by Fortitude; Dazed, Stunned, Incapacitated). 5 points/rank. If you want it to be DC current, meaning it locks their muscles preventing them from pulling away and continuing to inflict the effect until they succeed in a resistance check it is created as a Reaction Progressive Affliction (Resisted and Overcome by Fortitude; Dazed, Stunned, Incapacitated). 6! points/rank.


Do you really need Strength 16? Why assume that he was a very strong guy before his transformation? 1600 tonnes is a LOT. Strength 12 is still 100 tonnes, which is still loads (and already stronger than Colossus, last I heard).

I based Str 16 off of the examples in the book actually. In a PL10 game, paragons are at Str 12, and true Powerhouses are at 14...so I figured that for a PL12 game, to be considered a relative powerhouse, one would need to have a Str and Toughness of at least 14, if not 16.

As for being strong beforehand...the idea was that his body got transformed directly into this other substance, just as Colossus does...meaning in order to have the buff look he had to be buff before hand. Mister Rasputin is purportedly at peak human strength able to deadlift about 700-800 pounds. I think the guy who plays the Mountain on Game of Thrones has lifted just shy of a thousand...

Which please explain to me how the attribute scale is listed with 7 being peak human but so far as I can tell for strength it is actually more like 4 at the very most...? It's making it damn hard for me to gauge how high my attributed should be! I mean how smart is "real damn smart" but not Superhuman? Seems inconstant if normal humans can have 7 in everything but only 4 in Strength... I wanted him to be "Tony Stark" smart (that is a genius in a very specialized area), rather than "Reed Richards smart (reinventing physics every morning before breafast).


The power concept is pretty cool though.
I think you're just scaling it up too much for a game of that PL.

Thanks! :smallbiggrin: And thanks for helping! As I said it's a concept I've had for awhile now. That of course is what I see the problem as...theoretically with the PL power limits, it's technically impossible to be *over*powered...the limits on effect are strict. The problem that I am having is not having enough points to have a suitable *breadth* of abilities...that are still at the proper power level.


I'd second (third?) a variable array for flight,blasting, and electric body at least- just make sure you do the math ahead of time.


I don't really see this as possible for the concept: first of all he flies by generating an EM field...which he generates by running current through his body. Ergo electrified body and flight have to be on at the same time. In fact being so dense he will be levitating pretty much all the time (bought at least partially continuous). And would it not suck to be able to fly but have to land to shoot a lightning blast? Yeah that would be lame.


Drop your strength and intelligence, and put at least half the savings from intelligence back into technology and expertise (science). Alternately, alter his background to "unfortunate lab tech" or even "guinea pig" (I agree, it's not as empowering).


The former isn't a bad idea...the concept is he was a materials scientist inventing nano-based ultra-dense liquid metals for next-gen superconductors...and in the prototypical lab accident ends up merging with stuff, his consciousness essentially becoming pure electromagnetic energy that holds this ultra-dense liquid body together magnetically, in the shape of his previous body. I like the idea of a hero who is smart AND strong...see versions of the Hulk, Doctor Manhattan, etc.


Consider a disadvantage for your magnetic immunity, tied to a contested roll or a fort save or something... and then beef it up as far as it'll go. That way your average gadgeteer w/ optional supermagnet won't be a threat, but someone like Magneto's gonna be able to go LOL NO NOW NOW UR MADE OF MONOPOLES the way he almost certainly would in a comic.


Except the Meisner effect expels ALL magnetic fields inside the Electromagnet...sounds like an immunity to me! And if I'm only paying 2 points for it I don't really need to shave any more do I?

Now that I've dug into it I feel less enamored of the system. It's set up so that you can have a team of Batmans and Supermans and have them both be effective like the comics...but just as with Champions I feel like it is artificially limiting both in the point buy aspect, but also the level playing field means that everyone is basically the same. Everyone is going to have the same total defense one way or another, and everyone is going to have the same level of offensive capability one way or another. And as we know when everyone is special then no one is. Contrast with the old Marvel RPG...it allows for the scale of street level heroes up to gods...but they are NOT equal. So you really can have one character who can mop the floor with another...not so much in this game. Everyone is equal no matter what.

Not sure how I feel about it now.

But really it's the lack of points for my concept that is irking me. Sure I could come up with less baroque ideas, but I bought this RPG on the recommendations of PbP friends and was stoked to make this favorite concept my first character... :smalleek:

[Cirrylius]

I don't really see this as possible for the concept: first of all he flies by generating an EM field...which he generates by running current through his body. Ergo electrified body and flight have to be on at the same time.
Your character's fluff is verging on electrokinetic in any case- just term it that to fly he has to use his current in a dedicated fashion w/o letting it escape via contact or PEW PEW.[/QUOTE]


And would it not suck to be able to fly but have to land to shoot a lightning blast? Yeah that would be lame.
VARIABLE array. It's slightly more expensive, but it lets you shuffle the points of all powers in the same set around however you want, so you can fly slow and blast hard, or vice versa, or ignore one altogether to lump your points into the others. So, math.

Also, keep in mind that you're complaining that your SuperColossitoHattan has to rely on melee when flying roughly Mach 1.5. Perspective.

[TekHed]

Hmmm...variable array. That might work. Also considering slowing him down. At least a couple ranks of flight need to be continuous or he is going to destroy whatever he stands on.

Any word on the seeming discrepancy around normal human maximums?

The big thing is to calibrate just *how* strong he should be and just *how* smart etc.

And am I right in that powers are expected to be all at the limit cap or else not effective at a given PL?

And attack+effect should ALWAYS=PL right?

I'm thinking for example he might not have much of a fighting score or dexterity score for example, but buy up the difference using skills, yes? So he doesn't have to have a Fighting Attribute of 7 (I'm going to call that the "Bruce Lee" rank btw) but still be able to hit with my attacks.

Really that is the thing that annoys me the most is that it SEEMS at least on first glance the playing field is always going to be more or less equal...

...but how is it in actual play?

[Sith_Happens]

Hope you don't mind if I arrange my quotes way out of chronological order, your posts all sort of blend together in terms of what you're saying.


I don't understand what you mean by statistically favorable due to graded/not graded...? Why is that better for the brick than the speedster (who presumably will be able to hit but with puny damage)?

Beating an opponent's defense by 6 does the same thing as beating it by 1 unless you have Multiattack. Beating an opponent's Toughness check by 6, on the other hand, deals more damage than beating it by 1. Therefore, on average it's better to hit somewhat harder somewhat less often.


But really...it seems like someone who is really good at martial arts, say Batman is going to hit all of the time but might be able to damage a real brick, and the brick could cream batman but will never hit. I get that the comics are like that, but what fun is it in playing the super strong guy that never connects, or the guy that always hits but with no actual effectiveness?

You're overestimating the effects of trading off. To use an extreme example, a PL 10 character attacking with a to-hit/rank of +5/15 will hit 75% as often as one attacking at +10/10 and deal one extra degree of effect on average. You're right that going the other way and attacking at +15/5 will be less effective than either of the former due to a fully-resisted attack being functionally the same as a missed one, but since you want to trade for damage you don't need to worry about that.


I haven't gotten into the advantages section yet so I will check that out, but are you saying that those advantages will let your total attack bonus+effect to exceed the PL limit?

Yes, you just can't increase any value by more than 100% or decrease any value into the negatives. All-Out Attack in particular is especially useful to a character like yours that's already traded some defense for Toughness (just watch out for enemies Power Attacking).

Also note that by default you can already use any maneuver, buying the corresponding advantages just increases the maximum number of ranks you can reallocate from 2 to 5.


I considered this, but I found that the rules about what is and is not considered to be a fortitude effect to be rather not well organized... Seems like it would be only marginally cheaper to do it that way, no? And isn't immune to fatigue already included under Immune to Fortitude? Granted, this is a costly effect...but being made of solid metal it makes sense I wouldn't eat or breathe, or be able to be diseased/poisoned etc.

A Fortitude effect is any effect requiring a Fortitude resistance check, hence why it's called that in the first place. This category includes:

* Most environmental effects.

* Many Affliction and Weaken powers (theoretically exactly half of all such that might exist).

* Some Damage and Nullify powers (requires the Alternate Resistance extra).

Based on your reasoning for this Immunity you should drop it from Fortitude to Life Support, which is 20 ranks cheaper and covers all descriptors based around disrupting one's metabolic functions as well as all environmental effects. Immunity: Fortitude would additionally protect you from things like being artificially rusted or magically turned into a frog, which probably isn't what you had in mind.


Which is it seems the one place this otherwise awesome game seems to be breaking down for me. Iron Man has burly armor AND projects a force field. Yet there seems to be no way to show how that would be a worthy thing to have in this game since it seems that regardless of power level everyone is going to have maxed attacks and defenses (same as Champions).

Armor is a Protection effect. Personal force-fields are also a Protection effect (usually with a modified duration). If you want both, then have two discrete Protection effects, which will stack with the caveat that their combined ranks can't put you above the Toughness/Dodge/Parry power level cap. If that's a problem for you, then tough cookies.


It was my understanding that, much like Champions, if you DON'T max out your powers to the limit cap, then you are going to be underpowered, and thus ineffective. In other words, any powers that aren't at that level aren't really going to be effective, and are therefore a waste of points. Please do correct me if I'm mistaken.

This is generally correct, yes. The one exception I can think of is if you want a special "finishing move" but need to save points on it, it might be okay to drop the rank a bit since some or many of your target's defenses will be heavily penalized by the time you attempt to use it.


Contrast with the old Marvel RPG...it allows for the scale of street level heroes up to gods...but they are NOT equal. So you really can have one character who can mop the floor with another...not so much in this game. Everyone is equal no matter what.

This is exactly what power level is a metric of. A god will have a higher PL than a street-level hero, which means both more points and bigger numbers, which means a fight between the two would be incredibly one-sided. Specifically, the rule of thumb seems to be that every two power levels makes you twice as effective in play.

Admittedly this greatly complicates things if you want to have a god and a street-level hero in the same party, but since when would the two really be fighting together on equal footing in the comics/movies in the first place? The answer is always "because the plot is contorting in whatever ways are necessary to make it happen, verisimilitude be damned." Which, if you want to replicate that in a uniform-PL M&M party, I would suggest doing by giving the street-level hero an assortment of Enhanced Trait powers with the "Plot armor" descriptor (and possibly more hero points).:smallwink:


Well my hope was that if I could find a way to build a character I like, I could then go about hunting for a GM willing to take on the necessary parameters....that's how I've gotten most of my PbP these days...

Since I have far too much time on my hands right now I'll go ahead and help with that right now. Let's assume a PL 10 game since those will be most common.


The concept is essentially a cross between a Colossus type of character and a Magneto type of character.

Yeah, this is going to be tricky to fit into 150 points. When you think about it though, having a more versatile power set correlates strongly in comics with being more powerful overall, so it kind of makes sense that building such would require a higher power level('s worth of points).

Your bubble's been burst more than enough already though, so let's see the extent to which we can get around that. I'll break down your proto-sheet item by item and see where you can scale down or otherwise save points:


- Density Increase: I'm thinking between 6 ranks (3 tons) and 8 ranks (12 tons) +1 Sustained and -1 Permanent cancel each other out, so that is 12-16 points.
(as an aside every 4 ranks gives a -1 to speed rank...is that ALL speed ranks, or just walking? If I have flight, do I have to buy 2 more ranks to cancel this penalty out?)

Assuming based on this description that Density is some weird mutation of Growth, I'd say just break it down into its parts instead. Namely, some combination of Enhanced Traits, Protection, and Feature: Increased Mass (you'll need to ask your prospective GM how many mass ranks you can get per Feature rank, but it should definitely be 1-to-1 at the very least).

I don't know if the above will save points, but it's definitely way more straightforward.


- Immunities: Fortitude effects, basically a construct, plus Immune to aging (if that isn't covered under Fortitude), and Critical Hits, for a total of 33 points. (From what I can tell, just buying this power means I can still heal normally yes?)

As I mentioned above, cut Immunity: Fortitude and get Life Support instead. 20 points saved.

I find the critical hit immunity questionable; based on your concept description this character still more or less has an anatomy, and at the very least he definitely still has kneecaps and a face. Plus I feel like critical hits in this particular system represent generally lucky shots at least as much as a hitting-them-where-it-hurts.


-The first aspect of his power is that in addition to being metal, he generates vast amounts of electricity. So add Immunity to Electricity for another 10 points. And the Meisner Effect makes him immune to magnetic effects as well...another 10.

As brought up already, magnetism powers are uncommon so Immunity to them is only worth 2 points.


- The electrified body power from Power Profiles costs 5 points per rank for AC current which we'll say this is. Since it is a reactive affliction that doesn't require an attack roll, then I'm capped at 10 ranks, so 50 points.


The Shock-Field power listed in Power Profiles is made as: Reaction Cumulative Affliction (Resisted and Overcome by Fortitude; Dazed, Stunned, Incapacitated). 5 points/rank. If you want it to be DC current, meaning it locks their muscles preventing them from pulling away and continuing to inflict the effect until they succeed in a resistance check it is created as a Reaction Progressive Affliction (Resisted and Overcome by Fortitude; Dazed, Stunned, Incapacitated). 6! points/rank.

Cut this entirely. For better or worse, Reaction powers are almost always prohibitively expensive, and this one doesn't even mesh mechanically with the rest of what you're doing. If you need to justify the loss, just say that the ambient current going through him isn't enough to cause much harm, it's only when he focuses the electricity (i.e.- by shooting it at people) that it can hurt you.


He can also toss direct lightning bolts: ranged damage...a lightning bolt is listed as 15 ranks, so that would be a 9/15 split... let's add penetrating for a total of 45 points.

15 ranks is a bit much, for PL 10 I'd say 12 at most. Penetrating is entirely unnecessary, so that comes out to 24 points.


He also has an MRI like vision scan: 4 points

I don't know how you built this, but to me MRI-vision is visual Detect Chemical Composition (Ranged, Acute, Analytical) which indeed costs 4 points, though you could drop it to 1 point with the Check Required flaw (which makes sense for this power, the check being an appropriate Expertise).

That covers the powers, traits are another issue entirely. At some point after I've slept I'll probably whip up a full build and see what it totals to.

[TekHed]

Heya Sith!

A lot of great stuff in there...some of it I want to take, and some I don't... For brevity's sake and because it's less I'll address the former:


Since I have far too much time on my hands right now I'll go ahead and help with that right now. Let's assume a PL 10 game since those will be most common.


I had thought since PL10 is considered moderately powerful but still green that it would fit better to be PL12 to be a heavy hitter Avengers/Ultimates level team. I'd prefer 12, but I'm open to what you might come up with. Are you saying you want to run a game though? Because when I said it would be cool to make a character and then find a willing GM, I figured that I could just request a game for PLwhatever with whatever points, and SOMEONE will probably be down.


Assuming based on this description that Density is some weird mutation of Growth, I'd say just break it down into its parts instead. Namely, some combination of Enhanced Traits, Protection, and Feature: Increased Mass (you'll need to ask your prospective GM how many mass ranks you can get per Feature rank, but it should definitely be 1-to-1 at the very least).

I don't know if the above will save points, but it's definitely way more straightforward.


Oh no, it's WAY better to do it with the canon Density Increase (from Power Profiles). Enhanced Traits are 2 PP per rank...so to buy up +1 Str and Sta would be 4 PP. Denisty Increase is 2 PP per rank and gives +1 to both Strength and Stamina. Even if you sub ranks of Protection instead of Enhanced Stamina, it's still 3PP to get the same effect plus you want to add a mass feature on top, so yeah...2 PP/rank for DI seems WAY better and more efficient and its in the book!


I find the critical hit immunity questionable; based on your concept description this character still more or less has an anatomy, and at the very least he definitely still has kneecaps and a face. Plus I feel like critical hits in this particular system represent generally lucky shots at least as much as a hitting-them-where-it-hurts.


Actually no...he is one consistent substance all the way through. He is actually a dense nano-liquid held in human shape via electromagnetism and his self-image. Besides Immunity to Critical Hits is only 2 points...


Cut this entirely. For better or worse, Reaction powers are almost always prohibitively expensive, and this one doesn't even mesh mechanically with the rest of what you're doing. If you need to justify the loss, just say that the ambient current going through him isn't enough to cause much harm, it's only when he focuses the electricity (i.e.- by shooting it at people) that it can hurt you.


I think you misunderstand. I WANT him to have a reactive body field. It makes sense that he is an electrified metal man. Saying the ambient current inside of him isn't enough to cause much harm is like saying it wouldn't be harmful to touch an active Tesla Coil.

That said it may be cheaper to just buy it as a normal damaging effect rather than trying to make it an affliction.


I don't know how you built this, but to me MRI-vision is visual Detect Chemical Composition (Ranged, Acute, Analytical) which indeed costs 4 points, though you could drop it to 1 point with the Check Required flaw (which makes sense for this power, the check being an appropriate Expertise).


It's from the Magnetic Powers section of Power Profiles (really it's a great value of a book!).

In this case Magnetic Scanning is just a clever way of saying "X-Ray" Vision. Not about Detecting Chemical Composition at all...think an MRI being able to see inside people. It's built as Vision Penetrates Concealment.

[JBPuffin]

So I have the most recent addition of M&M to my knowledge, and frankly? I don't think you're coming at this from the right angle. This character idea isn't bad - definitely some degree of originality - but you're trying too hard to pack too much on. Besides, he has to have SOME weakness - that'll give you some extra points right there. Also, you don't need Immunity to Electricity AND Magnets at the same time - no one but you is throwing those around at the same time, so you'll be okay. On top of that, but you'll probably have help help that can make you better, for sure.

I had a blast making a team of pre-teen heroes for a Cthulian Horrors vs Schoolkid Supers setting. They were PL 10 or less, so by no means intergalactic heroes, but I made several workable blasters/strikers and a paladin with that small portion. Truth is, you do have to get creative - optimizing is doable, and GitP has some fantastic M&M optimizers on board - but it's lighter than DnD and a more tightly-reined. Ergo, you may have to make one or two sacrifices on paper - but in practice, you'll get to play this same character, even if the stats aren't quite what you imagined. So you can ask for double points - but in all honesty, it'll make things harder later on, when the Gamemaster has to make things to challenge you and is left with the Hydras and Archliches of the superhero world.

[TekHed]

I feel you guys but concept is king for me. immunity to electricity goes hand in hand with the concept...it just wouldn't make sense otherwise. And the magnetic immunity is a very cool extrapolation of a very real world phenomenon which I love...and as pointed out it's only 2 points! So, I think we can lay that one to rest.

I'll take a second pass at the character shortly, after I've eaten...

[Sith_Happens]

I had thought since PL10 is considered moderately powerful but still green that it would fit better to be PL12 to be a heavy hitter Avengers/Ultimates level team. I'd prefer 12, but I'm open to what you might come up with. Are you saying you want to run a game though? Because when I said it would be cool to make a character and then find a willing GM, I figured that I could just request a game for PLwhatever with whatever points, and SOMEONE will probably be down.

Usually when you're looking for games to join the GM will already have a power level and point total in mind. Most of the time this will be PL 10 and 150 points due to that being the standard. Therefore, when building a character for an arbitrary game you should build to PL 10 and 150 points, and if you find a game to join with different values than that you can just scale up or down to them.


Oh no, it's WAY better to do it with the canon Density Increase (from Power Profiles). Enhanced Traits are 2 PP per rank...so to buy up +1 Str and Sta would be 4 PP. Denisty Increase is 2 PP per rank and gives +1 to both Strength and Stamina. Even if you sub ranks of Protection instead of Enhanced Stamina, it's still 3PP to get the same effect plus you want to add a mass feature on top, so yeah...2 PP/rank for DI seems WAY better and more efficient and its in the book!

In that case do you mind posting the Density Increase description so I know how the effects scale with rank?


I think you misunderstand. I WANT him to have a reactive body field. It makes sense that he is an electrified metal man. Saying the ambient current inside of him isn't enough to cause much harm is like saying it wouldn't be harmful to touch an active Tesla Coil.

That said it may be cheaper to just buy it as a normal damaging effect rather than trying to make it an affliction.

I understand completely, my point is that if you're trying to fit a broad power set into a standard point total then a Reaction anything is the last thing you want to have. If you think it doesn't make sense for such a power to be absent then in this particular case you're just going to have to make it make sense. Seriously, we're talking a human made entirely of superconducting gray goo, that sets a pretty low bar for justifiability (and just to prove that I'm going to turn your desire for "realism" back on you and point out that magnetic levitation would let him "fly" a few feet off the ground at most, and only over reasonably magnetic surfaces at that).

Who knows, it might end up being possible to fit this into the electric-powers array so you can be personally electrified when you're not shooting lightning at people. I wouldn't count on it though.


It's from the Magnetic Powers section of Power Profiles (really it's a great value of a book!).

In this case Magnetic Scanning is just a clever way of saying "X-Ray" Vision. Not about Detecting Chemical Composition at all...think an MRI being able to see inside people. It's built as Vision Penetrates Concealment.

In that case whoever wrote that power had no clue how different imaging techniques actually differ from each other, and if you want X-ray vision you should call it X-ray vision.:smalltongue:

[TekHed]

Usually when you're looking for games to join the GM will already have a power level and point total in mind. Most of the time this will be PL 10 and 150 points due to that being the standard. Therefore, when building a character for an arbitrary game you should build to PL 10 and 150 points, and if you find a game to join with different values than that you can just scale up or down to them.


As I said, I was considering *requesting* a game/GM with a specific setting and power level in mind and recruiting said GM and other players. About half of my current active PbP started this way.

However, I decided to take it on anyway, as a design challenge, and having done so now have a much better feel for and appreciation for the system...no wonder you guys were talking about shaving off a few points! It took me several hours of tweaking and number crunching to get it just right, but it really helps to see all the PL10 character examples they give to understand the benchmarks of balance... Limitations really do spur creativity don't they?


In that case do you mind posting the Density Increase description so I know how the effects scale with rank?


I don't feel like typing out the same thing, but it's exactly the same as growth only without the bonuses or penalties that come from size ranks. And rather than get a speed increase every 8 ranks you get a decrease every 4.


Seriously, we're talking a human made entirely of superconducting gray goo, that sets a pretty low bar for justifiability (and just to prove that I'm going to turn your desire for "realism" back on you and point out that magnetic levitation would let him "fly" a few feet off the ground at most, and only over reasonably magnetic surfaces at that).

Hey I never said it was supposed to be "realistic." We are talking about comic book science here...what I said was the concept was inspired by reading about real life superconducting electromagnets which are fascinating. In the comics Magneto's flight is described as using the magnetic fields of the Earth.

On the other hand, you inspired me. I decided to drop the flight altogether (I had considered an electrostatic version like the pods used in the Matrix movie's ships) in favor of maglev "skating" which I think present a very cool visual and makes for a much more distinct character.


Who knows, it might end up being possible to fit this into the electric-powers array so you can be personally electrified when you're not shooting lightning at people. I wouldn't count on it though.


Yeah I decided to go with the array. Now he can alternate between the base power of electrified body (I elected to go with simple reactive damage instead of the costly affliction effects, and went with the rationale that he can keep the current off the surface if he wants when using his other powers), shooting it all out in a focused bolt that he can maintain like Emperor Palpatine, or Magnetokinesis. And of course in time I can add more...perhaps adding the electrostatic flight back in, EMPs, railgun effects, area effect EM storms, etc.


In that case whoever wrote that power had no clue how different imaging techniques actually differ from each other, and if you want X-ray vision you should call it X-ray vision.


Again, comic book science. The book says that "magnetic waves penetrate through substances letting you see through people and walls. Also a very useful power to have that adds a further layer of versatility.

And so, with no further ado:


http://s28.postimg.org/bxw7k87d9/Lodestone_2.png

Lodestone

Abilities
Strength: -2/12
Stamina: 0/14
Agility: 2
Dexterity: 2
Fighting: 4
Intellect: 4
Awareness: 1
Presence: 0

Total Cost: 22 points

Powers

Metal Body (Linked, Innate) 1
- [Growth 1, Density Increase 13, (Permanent)] 28
- [Life Support] 10
- [Immunity: Electricity, Critical Hits] 12

Meisner Effect [Immunity: Magnetism] 2

High Energy EM Scan [Vision Penetrates Concealment] 4

Maglev Propulsion [Flight 7 (Continuous, Subtle 1, Limited 2: Must be within one foot of a horizontal or lightly-angled surface)] 8

Electromagnetic Array: 40+2 Points
1. Electrocute [Reactive Damage 10]
2. Tesla Bolt [Ranged Damage 12, Increased Duration: Concentration, Accurate 3, Extended Range 1]
3. Paramagnetokinesis [Move Object 10, (Perception, Subtle 1, Precise), Quickness 20, (Physical Actions Only, Affects Only Objects, Limiting to Disassembling Objects)]

Total Cost: 107 Points

Skills
Expertise [Materials Science, a combination of Applied Chemistry, Physics, and Nano-Engineering] +6 (+10)
Total Cost: 3 Points

Advantages
Close Combat 4
Fast Grab 1
Improved Grab 1
Improved Hold 1

Total Cost 7 Points

Offense
Initiative +2
Unarmed +8, Close Damage 12
Tesla Bolt +8, Ranged Damage 12

Defense
Dodge +4 (+6)
Parry +2 (+6)
Will +5 (+6)
Fortitude +14
Toughness +14

Total Cost: +11

Grand Total: 150

Not bad I'd say! Open to critique.

[Sith_Happens]

Looks good, told you you could pull it off.:smallsmile:

Just a few suggestions:


Strength: -2/12

The negative base Strength seems a little weird/out of place to me, but hey, maybe this guy had a muscle condition or something before the accident.


Metal Body [Growth 1, Density Increase 13]

What's the Growth for or supposed to offset? Also make sure to specify that this is permanent (rather than the default sustained).

Also, if you Link these effects and the Immunities together into a single power you can make the whole thing Innate for a single point (rather than a point per effect). I'm assuming the whole "made of metal" thing is supposed to be Innate.


High Energy EM Scan [Vision Penetrates Concealment]

Comic book science or not that description of the "MRI" power still makes me cringe, so good on you for renaming it to something more generic.:smallwink:


Maglev Skating [Movement 4 (Sure Footed 1, Trackless Step 1, Water Walking 2, Speed 10 (Counts as 7 with the -3 Speed from Density Increase)]

Rebuilding this as Flight 10 (Continuous, Subtle 1, Limited: Must be within one foot [distance rank -4] of a horizontal or lightly-angled surface) would save you three points assuming that the limitation counts double due to cutting the utility by closer to 3/4 than 1/2. If Density Increase only cuts land speed and not flight speed then you can save another three points by dropping the rank from 10 to 7 to match the effective speed you have with the Movement+Speed version.

Of course, I suggest using one of those points to make the stuff Innate that should be and the rest for more electric powers.:smallcool:


Electromagnetic Array: 40+2 Points
1. Electrocute [Reactive Damage 10]
2. Tesla Bolt [Ranged Damage 12, Increased Duration: Concentration]
3. Paramagnetokinesis [Move Object 9, Perception, Subtle, Precise, Quickness 12, Physical Actions Only, Affects Only Objects, Limiting to Disassembling Objects]

If there are any more flat extras that you think wouldn't be out of place on Tesla Bolt and/or Paramagnetokinesis then there's no reason not to add them.

As for adding to this array between sessions, I'll just repeat the advice from the relevant sidebar in case you missed it: Only pay for modes you plan on using regularly, for everything else there's Power Stunts. Matter of fact, the example given of a Power Stunt in the book is using an electricity power as a Magical Defibrillator (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagicalDefibrillator) (by, in game terms, turning it into a Healing effect). Probably not something Lodestone will find himself doing very often, but if you ever need to you're just a hero point or some fatigue away from being able to.

Lastly, don't forget about complications. You know better than me what sorts of roleplaying-related complications would be appropriate, for crunchier ones here are my ideas (notes are bolded and in parenthesis):

Overload: Lodestone continually builds up charge within himself and may exceed his safe storage capacity if he is for some reason unable to ground himself or otherwise offload energy (such as by using electrical Damage powers) for [X] [hours/days] (pick a time period based on how much electricity you imagine him being able to hold and how often you want this complication to actually be relevant, which will generally require being captured or such regardless). For each hour this period is exceeded, he must make a Fortitude resistance check against Damage [5 + 1 per previous check]. After the [X]th such check or if Lodestone becomes incapacitated while in this state, his Electromagnetic Array may become Uncontrolled as he becomes unable to contain the electricity he's accumulated.

Quenching: Sufficient exposure to extreme heat (if you want you can decide on a specific critical temperature), such as by taking large amounts of fire damage, may cause Lodestone's body to cease being superconductive. Until he can regain superconductivity by cooling himself to below his critical temperature, he loses all powers with the electricity and magnetism descriptors and is affected normally by magnetic effects.

[Beleriphon]

In that case whoever wrote that power had no clue how different imaging techniques actually differ from each other, and if you want X-ray vision you should call it X-ray vision.:smalltongue:

Right, and Superman should probably be killing people buy keeping his eyes open, but hey I'm going to tie your realism to a chair and shoot it with my eye lasers while I fly around lifting aircraft carriers by the prow.

[TekHed]

The negative base Strength seems a little weird/out of place to me, but hey, maybe this guy had a muscle condition or something before the accident.


No that's not it. Call it gaming the system or whatever, but I specifically wanted 14 ranks of Density Increase for the Stamina/Toughness but that also gives me 14 Str, and I felt that having a +6 Attack modifier was going to reduce his ability to hit too much. I figure if I want to tip the scales further later on I can use the maneuvers.

I looked at doing it the other way...buy his strength up to 2 (+8 Points), drop Density to 9 ranks (-8 Points), and add either Enhanced Stamina of +4 or Just Buy Enhanced Fortitude +4 and Protection +4 (either way +8 Points)...but that costs 8(!!!) more points than buying up Density and dropping down Str to get the ranks I needed. And now that you suggested innate it doesn't matter. He could have had Str 4 prior to his origin story.


What's the Growth for or supposed to offset? Also make sure to specify that this is permanent (rather than the default sustained).

Also, if you Link these effects and the Immunities together into a single power you can make the whole thing Innate for a single point (rather than a point per effect). I'm assuming the whole "made of metal" thing is supposed to be Innate.


I noticed it said per effect in the book so figured I'd have to do without...where is the part where it says you can just pay once for all effects in a power? I seem to have missed that text...

Technically humans in this system by default are -2 Height and can be no higher than 6 feet. So if I want to be an 8-10 foot tall juggernaut, it needs a rank of Growth. Ah, and yeah it was supposed to be marked as Permanent so thanks for reminding me!


Rebuilding this as Flight 10 (Continuous, Subtle 1, Limited: Must be within one foot [distance rank -4] of a horizontal or lightly-angled surface) would save you three points assuming that the limitation counts double due to cutting the utility by closer to 3/4 than 1/2. If Density Increase only cuts land speed and not flight speed then you can save another three points by dropping the rank from 10 to 7 to match the effective speed you have with the Movement+Speed version.

Of course, I suggest using one of those points to make the stuff Innate that should be and the rest for more electric powers. :smallcool:

Actually...not sure how you did your math but it saves me a lot more than that! Flight is 2 points/rank. Continuous is 1 point/rank and Subtle is a flat +1. If we are talking 2 ranks of Limitation then that is 1 point/rank so only 8 points for Flight...you just saved me 10 points!!!


If there are any more flat extras that you think wouldn't be out of place on Tesla Bolt and/or Paramagnetokinesis then there's no reason not to add them.

Holy Value Savings Batman!

I just realized that I did the Paramagnetokinesis wrong...I had thought Subtle was +1 point/rank but it's flat! That means I can bump him up to 10 (the limit for powers without attack rolls) and still have 8 points left over for god knows what...

ALSO, just figured out that I can add Accurate Attack to my Tesla Bolt and get back 3 more points I had spent on Ranged combat...


As for adding to this array between sessions, I'll just repeat the advice from the relevant sidebar in case you missed it: Only pay for modes you plan on using regularly, for everything else there's Power Stunts. Matter of fact, the example given of a Power Stunt in the book is using an electricity power as a Magical Defibrillator (by, in game terms, turning it into a Healing effect). Probably not something Lodestone will find himself doing very often, but if you ever need to you're just a hero point or some fatigue away from being able to.

Oh yeah totally. Things like EMP (to deal with pesky battlesuit pilots...) are so situational they might as well be stunts. I considered healing via the magical defibrillator notion (which was cool in the inFamous video games)...but that is slightly less grounded in terms of the tone/realisticish setting I'd hope to play this character in (which I have an idea for if you're interested).

I'm amazed I got the 3 main ones I wanted...the bolt, body charge, and magnetic kinesis were my big three. The only other ones I can think of adding off the bat are Electrostatic Thrusters for true faster flight, EMP, and stunting off of Magnetism like Storm, Railgun, Degauss etc.


Lastly, don't forget about complications. You know better than me what sorts of roleplaying-related complications would be appropriate, for crunchier ones here are my ideas (notes are bolded and in parenthesis):

<snip>

As I understand it there is no benefit in terms of character creation to having crunchy complications. Those are cool ones you came up with but no way would I want to deal with those! Of the two Overload seems more interesting but in practice I can just shoot a bolt into the sky whenever I'd need to offload and capturing wouldn't keep me from doing so either.

The book says pick at least two complications, at least one being a motivation. I figured taking Acceptance and Doing good for his motivations (seeing as how he has lost much of his human identity from his transformation. As a third complication, I wanted to have family problems...his wife is afraid of what he's become, his marriage is strained and is almost certainly heading to a divorce. His young daughter of course still sees him for who he is, but that won't matter because his wife is most likely going to die for full custody as he (inevitably) commits to a life in harm's way battling supervillains.


Anyhooooo...

:tweaks:tweaks:tweaksomemore:

Voila!

http://s28.postimg.org/bxw7k87d9/Lodestone_2.png

Lodestone

Abilities
Strength: -2/12
Stamina: 0/14
Agility: 2
Dexterity: 2
Fighting: 4
Intellect: 4
Awareness: 1
Presence: 0

Total Cost: 22 points

Powers

Metal Body (Linked, Innate) 1
- [Growth 1, Density Increase 13, (Permanent)] 28
- [Life Support] 10
- [Immunity: Electricity, Critical Hits] 12

Meisner Effect [Immunity: Magnetism] 2

High Energy EM Scan [Vision Penetrates Concealment] 4

Maglev Propulsion [Flight 7 (Continuous, Subtle 1, Limited 2: Must be within one foot of a horizontal or lightly-angled surface)] 8

Electromagnetic Array: 40+2 Points
1. Electrify [Reactive Damage 10]
2. Tesla Bolt [Ranged Damage 12, Increased Duration: Concentration, Accurate 3, Extended Range 1]
3. Paramagnetokinesis [Move Object 10, (Perception, Subtle 1, Precise, Increased Mass 3), Quickness 20, (Physical Actions Only, Affects Only Objects, Limiting to Disassembling Objects)]

Total Cost: 107 Points

Skills
Expertise [Materials Science, a combination of Applied Chemistry, Physics, and Nano-Engineering] +6 (+10)
Total Cost: 3 Points

Advantages
Close Combat 4
Fast Grab 1
Improved Grab 1
Improved Hold 1

Total Cost 7 Points

Offense
Initiative +2
Unarmed +8, Close Damage 12
Tesla Bolt +8, Ranged Damage 12

Defense
Dodge +4 (+6)
Parry +2 (+6)
Will +5 (+6)
Fortitude +14
Toughness +14

Total Cost: +11

Grand Total: 150

Wow, I saved a TON of points...which I then used to fill out his defenses, beef up his Expertise, exchange the close combat skill for the more useful advantage, and add some very handy grabbing advantage that are going to be brutal between his strength and his electrocution power.

The one thing I couldn't figure out how to fill out was the Kinesis...30 points for Perception Move Object 10, 1 point for Precise, 1 point for subtle...leaves me with 8 points. I thought it was pretty brilliant to take limited quickness with it...this was before I saw the Quickness sidebar that mentions taking apart a car in 1 second too! With 3 points of flaws it costs 1 point per 4 ranks...I bought it up to 20 for 5 points. So now he can kinetically disassemble anything up to 25 tons that would normally take 2 weeks to do as a free action...and something heavier/more complex in a single round...think tanks and airplanes and bombs...if you separate the whole thing at once it can't detonate! Not sure if I could do that to someone's battle suit, but in any case it's a highly useful capability and very Magneto-ish to do...

Even so I still have 3 points worth of extras I could buy but not sure what would apply.

All in all I'm pretty stoked with how he turned out! Let me know what you think of the revised version, and I'll work on putting together a few more ideas I have to practice using the system... :small cool:

P.S. Is it true what Runeclaw said about Penetrating and Impervious being useless??? Almost every example character in the book has Impervious Toughness/Protection. Why is this?

[Sith_Happens]

No that's not it. Call it gaming the system or whatever, but I specifically wanted 14 ranks of Density Increase for the Stamina/Toughness but that also gives me 14 Str, and I felt that having a +6 Attack modifier was going to reduce his ability to hit too much. I figure if I want to tip the scales further later on I can use the maneuvers.

I looked at doing it the other way...buy his strength up to 2 (+8 Points), drop Density to 9 ranks (-8 Points), and add either Enhanced Stamina of +4 or Just Buy Enhanced Fortitude +4 and Protection +4 (either way +8 Points)...but that costs 8(!!!) more points than buying up Density and dropping down Str to get the ranks I needed. And now that you suggested innate it doesn't matter. He could have had Str 4 prior to his origin story.

I knew what you were doing from a mechanical standpoint, many GMs are going to want a flavor/descriptor reason too though. Basically, why did your adult character have the Strength of a child or senior citizen back when he was made of flesh?


I noticed it said per effect in the book so figured I'd have to do without...where is the part where it says you can just pay once for all effects in a power? I seem to have missed that text...

It's not explicit, but since Linking effects turns them into a single power for all intents and purposes the logical assumption is that one of those purposes is not needing to double up on flat modifiers. A Damage Linked to Affliction has a single attack roll for both effects so it wouldn't make sense to have to apply (In)Accurate to them separately, to name one example.


Technically humans in this system by default are -2 Height and can be no higher than 6 feet. So if I want to be an 8-10 foot tall juggernaut, it needs a rank of Growth.

I'm pretty sure Growth specifically says that's unnecessary, but if doing it anyways helps you get the ability and other trait scores you want then more power to you.


I just realized that I did the Paramagnetokinesis wrong...I had thought Subtle was +1 point/rank but it's flat! That means I can bump him up to 10 (the limit for powers without attack rolls) and still have 8 points left over for god knows what...

There's nothing inherently wrong with having an alternate effect under its point maximum if there aren't any more extras to give it, so go ahead and call this one done.

...Actually, doesn't Move Object have an Increased Mass modifier? I'd check right now but ever since I updated iOS yesterday Safari's been constantly refreshing my inactive tabs. Though even if Increased Mass isn't listed under Move Object it is on the main modifiers list so I see no reason you couldn't add it.


As I understand it there is no benefit in terms of character creation to having crunchy complications. Those are cool ones you came up with but no way would I want to deal with those! Of the two Overload seems more interesting but in practice I can just shoot a bolt into the sky whenever I'd need to offload and capturing wouldn't keep me from doing so either.

The point of complications is that you get a hero point every time they become relevant, and you can never have enough hero points. Get captured by a villain and held in a rubber cell for two days? Taking damage from the lack of grounding means at least one extra hero point you'll have to use after your teammates break you out. A fire villain manages to quench you? Use the hero point you just got to reroll a Power Attack punch to their face.

It's up to you what if any sorts of penalties are worth a point, of course, so if you don't like the idea or power loss or similar then don't use it. Just remember, a complication can be anything you want as long as it has the potential to hinder you in some way and the GM approves it.


P.S. Is it true what Runeclaw said about Penetrating and Impervious being useless??? Almost every example character in the book has Impervious Toughness/Protection. Why is this?

Impervious Toughness makes you immune to any Damage with a rank equal to or lower than half your Toughness bonus (so if you made Lodestone's 14 Toughness Impervious he would be immune to Damage 7 and below). Keyword "half." To use an equipment example, it ensures that no amount of small arms fire will ever hurt you but does absolutely nothing against a tank shell. It's a nice flavor ability (hence all the sample characters that have it) if you have enough leftover points, but definitely not worth deliberately budgeting for.

Penetrating, meanwhile, only does anything against opponents with enough Impervious Toughness to matter to you, which will happen precisely never (barring Immunities with the Half Effect flaw). It would take at least 24 Impervious Toughness to negate your Tesla Bolt, for example, or 28 if you Power Attack.

[TekHed]

I knew what you were doing from a mechanical standpoint, many GMs are going to want a flavor/descriptor reason too though. Basically, why did your adult character have the Strength of a child or senior citizen back when he was made of flesh?


And what I'm saying is that he didn't! He had a strength of 0 like a normal human. If becoming a super can give Enhanced Traits it can surely also weaken them. In this case it didn't weaken him either. From a fluff perspective he had strength 0 before and has Str 12 now.

Though...

For fun I decided to see what it would be like to scale him up to PL 12 (+30 points). As I suspected, more points doesn't mostly just scales you up but does't really give you more breadth.

However, I feel like it did get me closer to the character I wanted.

You see to get all the powers and stats I wanted I had to for cost reasons take Density 14...which gives him Mass 16...basically he weighs a kiloton, or 2 million pounds!!! Frankly this is more than I had first conceived of when making him. I would prefer he weigh at most 100,000 pounds (50 tons) or mass rank 11. However to then buy back up his Str back to 3/12, and his Stamina and/or defenses back up to 8/14 it would cost me 10 points over 150.

However when I do this at PL12 I am able to have mass rank 11, Str 14 (2 over the PL), Stamina/Toughness of 16 (2 over PL) and raise his array to 48 points. The only thing that I can't raise up to the PL limit due to a shortage of points is his Will save which still lags by 2 (easy to buy up in a session or two).

So the character at PL12, while yes is overall stronger, is at a balanced level while being closer to my original vision.

But if I had to suck it up and go for PL10 I would just have to be ok with being an insane 2 million pounds in a roughly 7.5 foot tall human form...


It's not explicit, but since Linking effects turns them into a single power for all intents and purposes the logical assumption is that one of those purposes is not needing to double up on flat modifiers. A Damage Linked to Affliction has a single attack roll for both effects so it wouldn't make sense to have to apply (In)Accurate to them separately, to name one example.


Hmm ok...have you seen this as a common house rule? You think it would be easy for a GM to go for it?


I'm pretty sure Growth specifically says that's unnecessary, but if doing it anyways helps you get the ability and other trait scores you want then more power to you.


It does not...all it says is humans are rank -2 size between 3 and 6 feet tall. According to growth it takes 4 ranks to get to the next size rank...in this case 12 feet, so each rank would give a quarter...or 1.5 feet to height to 7.5 feet. However since we all know humans can be that tall normally I can see where a GM wouldn't strew it but in the end it doesn't matter because a single rank of growth is exactly the same as a single rank of density...it only starts to differ at 2 ranks.


...Actually, doesn't Move Object have an Increased Mass modifier? I'd check right now but ever since I updated iOS yesterday Safari's been constantly refreshing my inactive tabs. Though even if Increased Mass isn't listed under Move Object it is on the main modifiers list so I see no reason you couldn't add it.


Why yes it does indeed! Ok so Increased Mass 3 added...he now has functional strength of 13 (or 15 at PL 12) with his TK... :smallbiggrin:

Re: Impervious, yeah that is what Rune had said. Funny because I can see how many (myself included) might actually fall for thinking it was a good/necessary idea...


http://s7.postimg.org/ud7d3ggbv/Atrapitis.gif

Regarding small arms fire, with a Toughness of 14 *without* Impervious...how much will I *really* need to be concerned about it? Like I said pretty much every single example character in the book makes their Toughness Impervious, which seems like just a stupid waste of points.

In any case I'm totally sold on the system now! I'll be posting up a few other characters for critique in the coming days. I'm glad I was able to fit Lodestone into 150, even if he is way heavier than I really want him to be at that level (I don't see where I can realistically shave any more points from him).

However I can see at least one of my concepts is probably too much to do with 150. We will see...

And Happy New Year all!!! :smallcool:

[Sith_Happens]

Regarding small arms fire, with a Toughness of 14 *without* Impervious...how much will I *really* need to be concerned about it?

A heavy pistol deals Damage 4, which means a resistance DC of 19. At "full health" you can fail that by one degree at most and have a 20% chance of doing so. It takes a damage resistance penalty of -2 before you're dazed on a natural 1, a penalty of -7 before you're staggered on a natural 1, and a penalty of -12 before you're incapacitated on a natural 1 (-7 if you're already staggered). I'll leave someone better at probability and/or Excel to calculate the average number of heavy pistol hits from "full health" to incapacitation, but it's definitely somewhere in the dozens. Also note that I've been saying "hits," it will take some much larger number of actual shots depending on the shooter's attack bonus.

A sniper rifle deals Damage 5 with a critical threat range of 19-20, which will do the job slightly faster but only slightly. Automatic weapons are less predictable due to Multiattack (which greatly increases the importance of attack bonus) but still fall into the range of "would take minutes of you not fighting back to be brought down by any not-incredibly-large number of wielders."

TL;DR: If there's like fifty mooks shooting at you at once you might have a problem, otherwise you'd have to stand there and take it to not be functionally immune.

[TekHed]

Good to know. Also for that sniper rifle...it's good that I'm immune to crits right? :small cool:

Any thoughts on my insane level of mass???

Backstory fluff is the guy was doing cutting edge research on superconducting materials for energy generation. They were experimenting with artificially created nano-materials and found that at extreme densities they were able to achieve unprecedented superconductivity at room temperature, but the substance was so dense they were dealing with near-microscopic amounts. Fortunately the energy generated by the substance allowed it to suspend itself in it's own magnetic field. Cue lab accident when the whole thing blows up and the micro-pebble gets blasted into my character, triggering the self-defense mechanism of his latent mutant genes that activated an Absorbing Man Matter Chameleon like effect.

The result was that he transformed and melted into a sphere of this stuff that went inert and was so heavy it was embedded into the floor. While the clean-up crew were trying to figure out how to deal with extracting it, it finally "came alive" and morphed back into his shape...he being now functionally an electromagnetic consciousness inhabiting the material.

Still...a kiloton is a LOT. Not like 50 tons isn't a lot either but...50 vs a thousand.

[Kid Jake]

Re: Impervious, yeah that is what Rune had said. Funny because I can see how many (myself included) might actually fall for thinking it was a good/necessary idea...


http://s7.postimg.org/ud7d3ggbv/Atrapitis.gif



In 2e it was actually pretty awesome, rather than 1/2 Toughness it was the whole damned thing so you ran into situations where the fight pretty much looked like this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmvZy0xZ-pQ) if nobody brought a Penetrating power with them. It was of course unbalanced as hell, but oh so glorious...

[TekHed]

Also...related to an entirely different character concept: Can someone please explain to me how the math for the Duplication power is supposed to work? It's odd that it says your PP total minus the ranks in Duplication divided by 15 is the minimum number of ranks you have to buy...this creates some really circular and unstraightforward math.

And what if you want more than one dupe?

[Kid Jake]

It's basically a scaling power tax for the privilege of having a posse of yous following you around. So every time you get a new ability you've got to buy it for both you AND the duplicates. It's a little wonky, but I see why they do it.

Also, I think in its description is says that you can just apply the Multiple Minions extra to it.

[TekHed]

Yeah but can you break the math down for me?

[Sith_Happens]

Any thoughts on my insane level of mass???

Remind me again how much mass we're talking here?


basically he weighs a kiloton, or 2 million pounds!!!

...Yeah, that's going to be a problem. Like, if he ever stops levitating he'll break any wood, plastic, or unreinforced concrete he tries to stand or sit on (and depending on the type of wood I wouldn't count on lying down either), and any chair that's not a solid mass of material is right out (though that would probably still be true even as low as mass 4 or 5).:smalleek:

Would it be possible to free up a point for Feature: Decreased Weight 4 (Continuous) as an alternate effect of the maglev (the idea being that he turns it down so that it only partly negates his weight rather than completely)? I think most GMs would let you weigh two ranks less per Feature rank, putting you at rank 8 (six tons) which would at least let you use floors.

Either way, though, Lodestone currently has a density of about 15000 g/cm3.:smalleek::smalleek::smalleek:


Also...related to an entirely different character concept: Can someone please explain to me how the math for the Duplication power is supposed to work? It's odd that it says your PP total minus the ranks in Duplication divided by 15 is the minimum number of ranks you have to buy...this creates some really circular and unstraightforward math.

And what if you want more than one dupe?

Duplication is one of the sample powers, and is derived from Summon. Instead of worrying about the "circular" math from the Duplication description (which is actually just a linear equation but never mind that:smalltongue:), just decide how many Summon ranks you want and scale the rest of your character sheet appropriately to represent the minion/duplicate. Also, heads-up, if you want to be able to have more than one duplicate at once the power is going to get really expensive really fast unless you make the duplicates really wimpy, even more so if you want to be able to make more than one of them per turn. Alternatively you could stat the duplicate as a full-powered version of yourself including the Duplication power, but good luck getting that one past a sane GM.:smallwink:

[TekHed]

Yeah the idea is a perfect clone as per the base power. So again how does the math work? How does one go about figuring it out? Maybe it's just worded funny but assume I'm making a PL10/150 and want a clone or 3 with the same powers. How many ranks do I need to buy?

[Knaight]

...Yeah, that's going to be a problem. Like, if he ever stops levitating he'll break any wood, plastic, or unreinforced concrete he tries to stand or sit on (and depending on the type of wood I wouldn't count on lying down either), and any chair that's not a solid mass of material is right out (though that would probably still be true even as low as mass 4 or 5).:smalleek:

Would it be possible to free up a point for Feature: Decreased Weight 4 (Continuous) as an alternate effect of the maglev (the idea being that he turns it down so that it only partly negates his weight rather than completely)? I think most GMs would let you weigh two ranks less per Feature rank, putting you at rank 8 (six tons) which would at least let you use floors.

Either way, though, Lodestone currently has a density of about 15000 g/cm3.:smalleek::smalleek::smalleek:

It's far more than just that that would break. Reinforced concrete is still going to be hosed. The density is also outrageous even by superhero standards - even if super dense materials are assumed, 50 g/mL would more than cover it.

[TekHed]

*sigh* but I'm an American and we don't use the metric system. So that's 33 lbs/cubic cm...

[Volthawk]

Basically, for Duplication your duplicates have all your stats, except for Duplication. The maths is a bit awkard, since you need to buy ranks of Duplication to match the value of your dupe, which in turn reduces the dupe's value, messing with the values, but here's my way: to find the ranks needed you divide your points by 15+cost per rank, so for standard Duplication with no more extras, that's dividing by 18. So for standard 150pt character, it's 8.33, so you'd need nine ranks. If you want to double check, you can see how many points that gives you (9x15=135, and without the 27 points spent on Duplication you fit in that). If we go up to, say, 2 clones, that's 150/20, making 7.5 going up to 8 ranks (again, you'd have 110 points outside of duplicate, which fits within the amount 8 ranks allows.

[Beleriphon]

Yeah the idea is a perfect clone as per the base power. So again how does the math work? How does one go about figuring it out? Maybe it's just worded funny but assume I'm making a PL10/150 and want a clone or 3 with the same powers. How many ranks do I need to buy?

Three identical duplicates of a PL10/150 hero? Duplication is just fancy summon, so with that said: Basic cost is 3pp/rank so for a PL10 hero you need to spend at least 8 ranks for one duplicate (150 points - 3x10points for duplication=120; 120/15=8x3=24 points). To get three duplicates you then need to add Multiple Minions which is a +2/rank extra twice for a total +4 per rank. So as a basic power you're looking at 7pp/rank to summon three identical duplicates of yourself although you'd actually get up to four copies with Multiple Minions 2.

So for a final tally for aPL10/150pp character you'd be looking at 7 (7 x 15pp = 105 needed to buy the duplicates abilities) ranks of Duplication, but it only gives you 101 points to work with since you burned a third of your points on single power.

[TekHed]

So based on the last two posts if I want one dupe it's 27 points, 2 dupes is 40 points and 4 dupes is 49 points?

[Knaight]

*sigh* but I'm an American and we don't use the metric system. So that's 33 lbs/cubic cm...

Odd. I'm also American, and for densities I've pretty much only seen metric units used. I was under the impression that pounds per cubic foot was all but dead as a unit.

[Sith_Happens]

Reinforced concrete is still going to be hosed.

Are you sure? I looked this stuff up for the purpose of that post and rebar is pretty darn strong. Then again maybe my assumptions were faulty; I was comparing a guesstimate of the pressure from Lodestone standing on something to the tensile strengths of different materials that might have the misfortune of being stood on by him.


The density is also outrageous even by superhero standards - even if super dense materials are assumed, 50 g/mL would more than cover it.

For reference, the densest known substance in real life that's neither a star nor something the LHC spat out is osmium at 22.59 g/mL.


[Duplication Math]

HAVE NO FEAR, ALGEBRA IS HERE!

The base power costs 3 points/rank.

Each application of Multiple Minions costs +2 points/rank and doubles the number of duplicates.

[# of duplicates] = 2[Ranks of Multiple Minions]

[Ranks of Multiple Minions] = log2[# of duplicates]

Therefore, the Duplication power costs (3 + 2log2[# of duplicates]) points/rank.

The number of points needed for full-power duplicates is ([Your power point total] - [Total Duplication cost]), while the number of points the duplicates have is (15 * [Power rank]). Therefore, the number of ranks required for full-power duplicates is given by

T - (3 + 2log2N)*R = 15R

where T is your power point total, N is your maximum number of duplicates, and R is your Duplication rank. Solving for R gives

R = T / (18 + 2log2N)

which gives 8.33 for a 150 point character with one duplicate, as previously calculated. Of course, since you can't have a fractional rank you need to decide which way to round; down means the duplicate will be slightly weaker than you while up means it will be slightly stronger.

Also note that this is without Horde, meaning you have to summon the duplicates one at a time, which can be quite limiting at higher N any time you aren't able to make them in advance of needing them. For Duplication with Horde, just change the 18 to a 19.

[TekHed]

Well I think in the science and engineering communities then yes even in America it's the standard but for the average person...like saying to me 15000 g/cm cubed...I have no reference for what a gram weighs let alone 15000 of them but I can easily imagine the heft of a 33 pound weight in my hand and visualizing that in a tiny cubic cm let's me make sense of it.

[Knaight]

Well I think in the science and engineering communities then yes even in America it's the standard but for the average person...like saying to me 15000 g/cm cubed...I have no reference for what a gram weighs let alone 15000 of them but I can easily imagine the heft of a 33 pound weight in my hand and visualizing that in a tiny cubic cm let's me make sense of it.

In that case, how does 664 times as dense as the densest chemical material sound (neutronium and similar get denser). Or if going fully american, 541 pounds per cubic inch or 936,400 pounds per cubic foot.

[TekHed]

How many cubic cm in a cubic inch? Also, given the volume of an approximately 7 foot 6 inch buff male form, what would the equivalent rank of Osmium be per the Rank Table?

Also regarding duplication apparently I also need the heroic extra which will cost me another +2...This is making it prohibitively expensive for a concept like The Engineer from The Authority.

[Knaight]

How many cubic cm in a cubic inch? Also, given the volume of an approximately 7 foot 6 inch buff male form, what would the equivalent rank of Osmium be per the Rank Table?

16.4 cubic centimeters to cubic inches. As for the rank of osmium, I have 2e (and it's loaned out), but you can approximate a human at 1 g/mL, and osmium is 22.59 g/mL. Kick the mass up to about 23 times the original, and you're good. Maybe go for a bit more than that to get the exotic materials feel across.

[TekHed]

Would it be possible to free up a point for Feature: Decreased Weight 4 (Continuous) as an alternate effect of the maglev (the idea being that he turns it down so that it only partly negates his weight rather than completely)? I think most GMs would let you weigh two ranks less per Feature rank, putting you at rank 8 (six tons) which would at least let you use floors.

I don't see how that would help? He already has continuous flight meaning his maglev is always on and he is always hovering, effectively weightless. And since any condition that affects an array affects the whole thing, nullifying his flight would mean nullifying his feature.

But really...with what you guys have shown me that level of mass is ludicrous for this concept (though I have another one it is perfect for).

He really should top out at 50 tons (which is roughly 8 times as dense as osmium). But that would be 9 ranks of growth, and I can't afford to buy back his other traits at that level. It would put me exactly 10 points over at 160...

:small frown:

So...it seems this concept as is really does work best at PL12.


Edit: Is 23 times the mass just mean multiply the mass times 23? In which case a 250 lb Colossus would weigh 2.875 tons or only mass rank 7...

I also had another character concept that called for duplication...but in the end couldn't do it. I was able to create an alternate version without duplication but it would seem that many of my ideas are just too powerful/versatile, at least for the "standard" power level this game is played at.

[Sith_Happens]

If you could free up some points for permanent Feature: Decreased Mass (probably by cutting EM Scan and/or dropping your Maglev speed) then that would work. You're cheesing your abilities to the extreme at that point, but if a GM gets skeptical then explaining you needed such extreme cost-circumventing measures for breadth purposes rather than raw power might get you a pass.

The other option is to trim down the Electromagnetic Array, which means dropping Electrify.

[TekHed]

Permanent Feature would still take 4 points though yeah?

I don't want to give up the EM Scan, and his speed is as low as I'd want to go with it.

It seems silly to take a bunch of ranks in extra mass only to then spend another 4 points to have less mass. :small confused:

I think as is, this is a PL12 character concept...as many of mine seem to be the more I play with the numbers it takes to realize them and still be balanced. At PL12 I can hit the right power levels and balance. At PL10 the mass is just too obscene, at least for this concept (though I've been inspired by the notion for another one...).

I'm working on a couple other characters that I will post for critique sometime tomorrow night.

[TekHed]

Ok, as promised more characters for critique!

First though here is the final definitive version of a PL12 Lodestone:

http://s28.postimg.org/bxw7k87d9/Lodestone_2.png

Lodestone

Abilities
Strength: 0/14
Stamina: 0/16
Agility: 0
Dexterity: 0
Fighting: 4
Intellect: 4
Awareness: 0
Presence: 0

Total Cost: 16 points

Powers

Superconducting Metal Form (Linked, Innate) 1
- 7.5 feet tall, 25 tons (over 10 times the density of Osmium)[Growth 1, Density Increase 7, (Permanent)] 16
- [Enhanced Strength 6] 12
- [Enhanced Stamina 8] 16
- [Life Support] 10
- [Immunity: Electricity, Critical Hits] 12

Meisner Effect [Immunity: Magnetism] 2

High Energy EM Scan [Vision Penetrates Concealment] 4

Maglev Skating [Flight 7 (Continuous, Subtle 1, Limited 2: Must be within one foot of a horizontal or Angled surface)] 8

Electromagnetic Array: 48+3 Points
1. Electrify [Reactive Damage 12]
2. Tesla Bolt [Ranged Damage 14, Increased Duration: Concentration, Accurate 4, Extended Range 2]
3. Paramagnetokinesis [Move Object 12, (Damaging, Subtle 1, Precise, Accurate 5), Quickness 20, (Physical Actions Only, Affects Only Objects, Limiting to Disassembling Objects)]
4. Geomagnetic Propulsion [Flight 14, Subtle 1]

Total Cost: 132 Points

Skills
Expertise [Materials Science, a combination of Applied Chemistry, Physics, and Nano-Engineering] +6 (+10)
Total Cost: 3 Points

Advantages
Close Combat 6
Ranged Combat 2
Fast Grab 1
Improved Grab 1
Improved Hold 1

Total Cost 11 Points

Offense
Initiative +0
Unarmed +10, Close Damage 14
Tesla Bolt +10, Ranged Damage 14

Defense
Dodge +8 (+8)
Parry +4 (+8)
Will +6 (+6)
Fortitude +16
Toughness +16

Total Cost: 18 Points

Grand Total: 180

Next up is a PL10 concept...the original version from another game also had the ability to generate clones...up to 5 at once of equal power but that was just too prohibitively expensive for any PL's worth of points...

Mandala PL10

(No picture yet for this one)

Abilities
Strength: 2
Stamina: 10
Agility: 0
Dexterity: 0
Fighting: 5
Intellect: 0
Awareness: 4
Presence: 0

Total Cost: 42 points

Powers

Omniscience [Senses: Vision] 23 Points
- Radius 2
- Distance Sense 1
- Extended 3
- Counters All Concealment 5
- Counters Illusions 2
- Penetrates Concealment 4
- Low Light 1
- Infravision 1
- Ultravision 1
- Tracking 1
- Danger Sense 1
- Uncanny Dodge 1

Teleport Array: 47+3 Points
1. Translocate [Teleport 21, Change Direction, Change Velocity, Turnabout Subtle 2]
2. Banish [Attack Teleport 11, Change Direction, Change Velocity, Subtle 2, Accurate 2, Increased Mass 19]
3. Disintegrate [Lethal, Linked, Incurable, Accurate 2, Weaken Toughness 11 (Affects Objects), Damage 11 (Multiattack)]
4. Reintegrate [Healing 11 (Affects Objects, Restorative, Stabilize, Persistent)

Total Cost: 73 Points

Skills
Perception +10 (+14)
Stealth +10 (+10)

Total Cost: 10 Points

Advantages
Improved Critical (Disintegrate) 4

Total Cost 4 Points

Offense
Initiative +0
Unarmed +5, Close Damage 2
Disintegrate +9, Effect 11

Defense
Dodge +10 (+10)
Parry +5 (+10)
Will +6 (+10)
Fortitude +10
Toughness +10

Total Cost: +21

Grand Total: 150


Finally I wanted to try my hand at a PL15 character...this one was inspired by our discussion of obscene levels of mass and density...

Are you prepared for...

The Shrinking Superman!

The Pint-Sized Powerhouse!

The Tiny Titan!

The Mighty Neutron!

Abilities
Strength: 0/18
Stamina: 0/18
Agility: 0
Dexterity: 0
Fighting: 0
Intellect: 0
Awareness: 0
Presence: 0

Total Cost: 0 points

Powers

Hypercompression [Shrinking 24 (Full Strength, Quirk: Maximum Rank Only, Feature: Leverage), Linked Density 18, Life Support] 118

Dynamic Array (Gravitational): 49+3 Points
1. Massive Field Generation
2. Slingshot [Flight 24 (Subtle)]

Total Cost: 170 Points

Skills
None

Total Cost: 0 Points

Advantages
Close Combat 12
Fast Grab 1
Improved Grab 1
Improved Hold 1
Improved Trip 1
Move-by Action 1
Hide in Plain Sight 1
Startle 1

Total Cost 19 Points

Offense
Initiative +0
Unarmed +12, Close Damage 18

Defense
Dodge +12 (+12)
Parry +12 (+12)
Will +12 (+12)
Fortitude +18
Toughness +18

Total Cost: +36

[B]Grand Total: 225


I've found that past PL12, 15 points per level doesn't seem enough...it wasn't *quite* enough to scale up Lodestone completely. I had a PL12 version of Neutron who was at a good power level, with a few better attributes and some skills, but lacking in the gravity powers that really drive the concept home.

In the PL12 version to scale him up enough he has 0 points in attributes (stunningly average across the board) and 0 skills. Not sure how I would justify that concept-wise...


Anyway, critiques welcome!!!

[TekHed]

A PL12 version of Mandala enables me to combo short range ports and still attack...

Mandala

(No picture yet for this one)

Abilities
Strength: 2
Stamina: 12
Agility: 0
Dexterity: 0
Fighting: 4
Intellect: 0
Awareness: 6
Presence: 0

Total Cost: 48 points

Powers

Omniscience [Senses: Vision] 23 Points
- Radius 2
- Distance Sense 1
- Extended 3
- Counters All Concealment 5
- Counters Illusions 2
- Penetrates Concealment 4
- Low Light 1
- Infravision 1
- Ultravision 1
- Tracking 1
- Danger Sense 1
- Uncanny Dodge 1

Enlightenment [Life Support] 10

Combat Teleport [Teleport 3, Change Direction, Change Velocity, Turnabout, Subtle 2] 11

Teleport Array: 49+3 Points
1. Translocate [Teleport 22, Change Direction, Change Velocity, Turnabout, Subtle 2]
2. Banish [Attack Teleport 10, Change Direction, Change Velocity, Subtle 2, Accurate, Increased Mass 24]
3. Disintegrate [Lethal, Linked, Incurable, Weaken Toughness 12 (Affects Objects), Damage 12 (Multiattack)]
4. Reintegrate [Healing 11 (Affects Objects, Restorative, Stabilize, Persistent)]

Total Cost: 96 Points

Skills
Perception +4 (+10)
Close Combat (Touch Attacks) +8 (+12)

Total Cost: 6 Points

Advantages
Improved Critical (Disintegrate) 4

Total Cost 4 Points

Offense
Initiative +0
Unarmed +6, Close Damage 2
Disintegrate +10, Effects 14

Defense
Dodge +12 (+12)
Parry +8 (+12)
Will +6 (+12)
Fortitude +12
Toughness +12

Total Cost: +26

Grand Total: 180

[Runeclaw]

Re: Impervious, yeah that is what Rune had said. Funny because I can see how many (myself included) might actually fall for thinking it was a good/necessary idea...

Regarding small arms fire, with a Toughness of 14 *without* Impervious...how much will I *really* need to be concerned about it?


It's always nice to be agreed with, but I'll walk my line on Impervious back a little bit. There is some merit in having enough Impervious Toughness to be completely immune to small arms. Because while with a Toughness of 14 it's true you don't have to worry overly much about one dude with a mundane gun, dudes with guns sometimes come in packs. And if there's a big bunch of soldiers or cops all unloading at you, which is not such a very far-fetched scenario, then there is an advantage in being completely immune.

[TekHed]

It's so expensive though!

I haven't gotten into the combat rules too deeply yet, but wouldn't you get a separate Toughness save against each shot/bullet? Or does a hailstorm of gunfire merge into one greater ranked effect? I feel like if *every* hero in the main book is built with Impervious defenses...that it should just be a feature or even just a house rule that supers are immune to the small stuff. Since it only seems to be about being immune to minions and not other PL level foes.

Anyone have any thoughts on my other dudes???

[Pinnacle]

The GM might have them make a Team Attack instead of individual attacks.
But the problem here actually is when you make multiple rolls--you're going to roll low sometimes.

[Kid Jake]

But the problem here actually is when you make multiple rolls--you're going to roll low sometimes.

Definitely this.

I've got a villain in my M&M game that literally had to roll a 1 to roll low enough to be affected by small arms fire, yet due to a few unlucky rolls and the tenacity of a badass normal with a hoard of Hero Points he had a hurting laid on him with only a .45 and some everyday appliances. Without the Impervious extra even a +20 Toughness save will falter when confronted with enough punks with guns, which isn't a bad thing necessarily; I mean it keeps things interesting, but it is something to watch out for.

[TekHed]

I suppose it is really up to the flavor of the campaign then. To which I would reiterate if the main antagonists are supposed to be supers, that Impervious should be a freebie. It is used exactly the way the Puny Human rule in Aberrant was used, and that was an optional rule, not an expensive but oh so situational modifier that becomes mandatory with a certain flavor. I'd make impervious a free modifier like Lethal, in campaigns that warrant it.

[Pinnacle]

Not all superheroes are immune to minions with guns, though. Superman is, but Wonder Woman needs to be able to use her bracers and Batman still wants to avoid getting hit. Those are three characters that could be involved in the same fight.

Well, if all three of them are fighting together against common thugs it's probably not much of a fight.

[TekHed]

My point exactly. Even the way the system artificially levels the playing field by assuming your defenses will all tally up via tradeoffs makes all kinds of hand-waiving assumptions. Either mooks should be dangerous, or not. But imposing a tax in the form of Impervious just seems like too much to ask given how hard I've been finding it to realize my concepts as is...

[Kid Jake]

Impervious is a handy extra to have, but I certainly wouldn't consider it a necessity. The guy with Impervious built himself specifically to laugh at mooks, that's his super power. Not everybody needs his superpower. Someone else might accomplish the same goal with invisibility or super speed (the ability to smack a man in the face and then go back home and watch t.v. between attacks is not to be underestimated) or the ability to grow new bodies faster than you break them or even just enjoy playing a deadly game of cat and mouse where 10 guys sporting AKs is a legitimate threat. The beauty of Mutants and Masterminds is that all of those characters could easily be statted up and contribute to the same game.

It really sounds like your concepts are just trying to be too high powered out of the gate. Even Superman didn't start off with Flight and Super Ventriloquism, he accumulated them as he went along.

[TekHed]

High powered? No...the PL caps mean that no character is allowed to be overpowered...what I want...no what I need for many of my concepts is breadth.

But again, I'm saying every single example character has Impervious...and yeah my brick character in particular *should* by all rights be able to laugh at mooks. But I can't afford that AND all the concept-flavor-electromagnetic abilities.

Really though I think it's telling that ALL of the sample characters have impervious...if it is really THAT necessary I would say make it a house rule and not a point tax...

[Beleriphon]

Not all superheroes are immune to minions with guns, though. Superman is, but Wonder Woman needs to be able to use her bracers and Batman still wants to avoid getting hit. Those are three characters that could be involved in the same fight.

In fairness Superman is generally stated on the Atomic Think Tank at a minimum of PL 15 and is toughness shifted he as toughness resistance +20 and impervious so it really does take a bursting shell to hurt him (ie. the main gun on a tank is damage 10). I think the official DCA version has him with a +20 toughess and I know he's PL15. Mind you that's nothing compared to Darkseid's PL19 and Omega beams that have 12 ranks of Homing and a +19 to hit w reversible (I think they're a disintegrate effect as well).

[Runeclaw]

High powered? No...the PL caps mean that no character is allowed to be overpowered...what I want...no what I need for many of my concepts is breadth.

You can overpower around the PL system. It's just hard (and sometimes expensive).


But again, I'm saying every single example character has Impervious

They don't, though. Only the bricks do. If all you do is be strong and tough, then sure, it's worth putting a few points into Impervious. But you don't need to past about 8 ranks of it.


...and yeah my brick character in particular *should* by all rights be able to laugh at mooks.

And he can laugh at a mook or two, no problem. He just can't necessarily laugh at platoons of them.


But I can't afford that AND all the concept-flavor-electromagnetic abilities.

Yes - as established, your concept is really too powerful and too broad to be consistent with an average M&M starting character of PL 10 and 150 PP. With a bit of tweaking, you were able to get it very close, though.

Keep in mind that you will typically earn 1 PP per game. This is actually quite a high rate of advancement. You don't need to stat out your character in it full and final glory as you envision it to begin with. Just stat enough of it that the concept and mechanics will work - you can flesh it out as you play.


if it is really THAT necessary I would say make it a house rule and not a point tax...

It's not really that necessary. It's only occasionally useful. It depends on your GM's style. Most are probably not going to have you attacked by hordes of minions with mundane firearms. If they do, you might take a few hits as you mow them down. Those hits will heal quickly once combat is complete. I've been playing M&M since first edition and the only times I can recall really seeing PCs attacked by large numbers of mortals with mundane weapons was when they had pissed off the police or the army and the GM was wanting to remind them that they were not untouchable.

[TekHed]

Not just the bricks...the energy projectors too. Basically anyone with a "super" defense or force field. There are 15 templates...8 of them have impervious. The Mimic and Shapeshifter can also pick it up if need be. So that makes 2/3s...