Druid Companions- Grow or Upgrade?

[purepolarpanzer]

Which is statistically better- to start with one companion and grow it with levels, or switch to a bigger animal? For example, better to have an origional wolf, changed ape, or dire ape at level 10?

[storybookknight]

Combat-wise? Switch. Your companion will have better stats, and as many feats.

However, I'd go with keeping your companion, as it'll get bonus tricks which you can use to teach it to do fun things. See Complete Adventurer for details.

[Aximili]

I don't know statistically. But keeping the companion is much more meaningful in-game.

[Jack_Simth]

In terms of power?
You'll want something from the 4th level list, at a minimum (I'm fond of the Dire Bat for the fly 40 (good) and rideable size, or the Dire Badger for the useable tunnel).
You'll pretty much want one of the dire beasties for the good Will saves.
Beyond that, consider what you want most out of your animal companion (lots of damage? Survivability? A good mount? A scout? A specific ability?) and go through and compare the advanced version of critters you can get vs. the level adjusted critters you can get.

[WildBill]

I think the companion you start with or a companion from the level 4 group is statistically better, simply because you get to give them so many feats that are way better than what the high level companion has. For example, a Leopard (4th level animal companion) compared to a Dire Tiger (16th level companion). The leaopard would have gained 8 nat AC, +8HD, bringing 2 extra feats, say power attack and leap attack (why not use the leopards +8 jump racial mod), have a STR of 24, and a DEX of 27, an AC of 27 or so. It has a higher AC, somewhat lower attack bonus, and a less hitpoints. The use of power/leap attack with pounce (something the dire tiger will never get), more than equalizes the differenece in hitpoints. And you got to RP all those times spent with you companion.

[Leon]

It depends on what you plan on doing, im playing a Druid with a Kank as my companion - im going to keep that Kank till i get to level 10 and can upgrade to a Ixil as there are no other compainons along the way that i can ride.


And you got to RP all those times spent with you companion.


And that

[Stephen_E]

General Rules

You compare your base creature with advances, including any feats of choice you might get vs the potential upgrade.

Does the Upgrade have -
1) Better HD
2) Better NAC
3) Better Stats
4) A special ability you want/will use often (Fly, Improved Grab, Trip).

You want several of these to be positive to a greater or lesser degree to make it worth upgrading. Also look at synergies. Dire Wolves don't get extra abilities, but the Size increase coupled with the massive Str increase, turn Trip inot a rekiable ability. As a general Guideline, power peaks around -3 to -6 penalty companions. Beyond this point you're probably losing power by upgrading. Note This is just "Power" we're talking here. If you've always wanted a Dire Tiger, go for it. Take a Leopard and "Grow" it upto a Dire Tiger. Animal Companions are IMHO the Druid feature that is most about "coolness" rather than power. If you want to have a Megaraptor called Fluffy and tie a pink bow around its neck, power to you (My Dire Wolf is called "Death by Chocolate" by my Halfling Druid. Chocolate for short.)

In addition, look at the Size. If you want a mount, it has to be at least one size larger than you. On the otherhand if you take a Large Creature Dungeon crawling, keeping a Reduce Animal Wand around can be useful. Spider climb is also useful. Anything larger than "Large" is going to be a serious problem in anything other than the outdoors (non-cities).

General Notes: Natural Bond feat (Comp Advent) can, per RAW, be used topay for 3 levels of penalty.

A -3 penalty is almost always better than a standard creature (Exception - A Hv Warhorse, assuming it's suitable, works well for lomg term advancement).

Have your cake and eat it to - You want to roleplay the companion from the start AND have a upgraded as well. Simple, fudge. Example - I'm currently playing a Druid. I wanted a Dire Wold but didn't want to change at level 4 (the earlist I could get a Dire Wolf using Natural Bond). Answer: I started with a young Dire Wolf, use the stats of a Wolf and when I get to 4th level my "Young Dire Wolf" will grow up into an Adult Dire Wolf. Especially if you start with Natural Bond, allowing you to start with a -3 penalty alternative companion, there is very little that you can't start with a "young" animal and have him/her grow into an adult.

As others have mentioned, Dire animals have 3 good saves, so if possible always have one.

Animal Int. The MM says Animal have Int 1 or 2. On the otherhand the DMG says they're not a NPC until you have a Int of 5+. In DnD Int 3 means you can learn a language. In RL some animals can learn a language. In short Int 3-4 is a grey area. Talk to your GM. If they allow animals to have upro Int 4 then you should either apply your "4HD=+1 stat increase" to Int, or get a headband of Intellect. The extra Trick slot make the raft of tricks avialable actually useful.

Stephen

[Jack_Simth]

General Notes: Natural Bond feat (Comp Advent) can, per RAW, be used topay for 3 levels of penalty.

A -3 penalty is almost always better than a standard creature (Exception - A Hv Warhorse, assuming it's suitable, works well for lomg term advancement).

Have your cake and eat it to - You want to roleplay the companion from the start AND have a upgraded as well. Simple, fudge. Example - I'm currently playing a Druid. I wanted a Dire Wold but didn't want to change at level 4 (the earlist I could get a Dire Wolf using Natural Bond). Answer: I started with a young Dire Wolf, use the stats of a Wolf and when I get to 4th level my "Young Dire Wolf" will grow up into an Adult Dire Wolf. Especially if you start with Natural Bond, allowing you to start with a -3 penalty alternative companion, there is very little that you can't start with a "young" animal and have him/her grow into an adult.
Not quite - at least by my literalist reading.

A literal reading lets Natural Bond mitigate the higher-level animal companion's adjustment to your Druid level, but doesn't permit you to take them early (you still have to have a Druid level of X in order to take the advanced animal companions).

There's also a balance issue involved - an animal companion with the boost from Natural Bond can have better Attack, Armor Class, damage, and Hit Points than the DMG NPC barbarian (and occasionally the Fighter, too). Tack on the Druid's ability to buff the Animal Companion, and to put it in barding, and the Barbarian or Fighter-4 can be a little behind the curve. As an example, a halfling Druid-4 can ride a Leopard, and share spells. With the bonus from Natural Bond, that Leopard has 5d8+15 HP, AC 18, Bite +7 for 1d6+3 and two claws +2 for 1d3+1 and rake +7 for 1d6+1 - plus a bonus feat and some save increases, all before the Druid casts Magic Fang or Barkskin. Simple Leather Barding puts the AC up to 20 at a piddly cost of 20 gp. If one feat lets the Druid have a "vanilla" CR 2 Animal Companion at level 1, the Fighter is really hosed.

[Stephen_E]

Not quite - at least by my literalist reading.

A literal reading lets Natural Bond mitigate the higher-level animal companion's adjustment to your Druid level, but doesn't permit you to take them early (you still have to have a Druid level of X in order to take the advanced animal companions).

There's also a balance issue involved - an animal companion with the boost from Natural Bond can have better Attack, Armor Class, damage, and Hit Points than the DMG NPC barbarian (and occasionally the Fighter, too). Tack on the Druid's ability to buff the Animal Companion, and to put it in barding, and the Barbarian or Fighter-4 can be a little behind the curve. As an example, a halfling Druid-4 can ride a Leopard, and share spells. With the bonus from Natural Bond, that Leopard has 5d8+15 HP, AC 18, Bite +7 for 1d6+3 and two claws +2 for 1d3+1 and rake +7 for 1d6+1 - plus a bonus feat and some save increases, all before the Druid casts Magic Fang or Barkskin. Simple Leather Barding puts the AC up to 20 at a piddly cost of 20 gp. If one feat lets the Druid have a "vanilla" CR 2 Animal Companion at level 1, the Fighter is really hosed.

Literal reading of Natural Bond. It adds 3 to your effective Druid level. It can not make your effective Druid level exceed your character level. Your "effective" is your level after taking into account all bonuses and penalties. Thus if you're going for an alternative companion you must apply the penalty to get the "effective Druid level".

Re: Your Leopard example - It doesn't get a bonus feat (going from 3HD to 5HD doesn't give you a feat) and if you're putting barding on it your DM is probably going to require you to spend one of your precious Tricks on it (if you don't you'll shortly have a shredded hunk of leather after the Leopard removes it). Otherwise, yes, animals are strong at low levels. Of course once that Fighte type get to level 6 he gets iterative attacks, he also gets a bonus attack from Haste. Neither of these things are stuff that animals get. Also note that Natural Bond is one of those very few feats the Druid gets. Lets compare it to Natural Spell. Frankly in most melee circumstances even at 4th level a PC Barb or Fighter isn't getting hosed (I don't care about NPC's. I don't compare NPCs to PCs in general).

Stephen

[Jack_Simth]

Literal reading of Natural Bond. It adds 3 to your effective Druid level. It can not make your effective Druid level exceed your character level. Your "effective" is your level after taking into account all bonuses and penalties. Thus if you're going for an alternative companion you must apply the penalty to get the "effective Druid level".

Well, with the wording, it's a bonus to your effective druid level for purposes of X, Y, and Z - with the ability to grab level adjusted animal companions not in there. So while, as worded, it lets you have a Dire Bat at 4th with bonus HD, natural armor, strenght and Dex, bonus tricks, and Evasion, it doesn't let you take the Dire Bat at 1st; the list still requires you to be 4th level or higher before you can take the animal companion.


Re: Your Leopard example - It doesn't get a bonus feat (going from 3HD to 5HD doesn't give you a feat)

Ah, right - switched examples midway through, missed that one in the editing.

and if you're putting barding on it your DM is probably going to require you to spend one of your precious Tricks on it (if you don't you'll shortly have a shredded hunk of leather after the Leopard removes it).Being "Trained for War" gives them armor proficiency. While yes, it might require a trick, a Druid gets bonus tricks; grab an Int-2 animal, spend a bonus trick on training for War, training tricks for, oh, Combat Riding (possibly switching out Guard or Heel for Attack Anything). A minimal animal companion has the potential for seven tricks. Adding Natural Bond into the mix also adds a trick. There's only 12 base tricks (possibly 13, if you include War) many of them overlap in function (Guard and Stay, Defend and Heel, and so on), many aren't useful to the unstealthy animal companions (seek, for instance), and some you can more handily do yourself (usually).


Otherwise, yes, animals are strong at low levels. Of course once that Fighte type get to level 6 he gets iterative attacks, he also gets a bonus attack from Haste. Neither of these things are stuff that animals get.
It would get an extra attack from a Wizard casting Haste on it; just not from boots of haste. Okay, it doesn't get iterative attacks... unless it's a single-attack critter and your effective Druid level hits 9th. If it's not a single-attack critter, it improves significantly at that point anyway, and it probably has more attacks than the fighter does anyway - usually for as much, if not more, damage (although the AC does lose the ability to intelligently Power Attack).
Also note that Natural Bond is one of those very few feats the Druid gets. Lets compare it to Natural Spell.
Of course! Let's compare a feat often considered to put Druids over the top on the power spectrum with a feat that puts Druids over the top on the power spectrum!

It's cheddar vs. Swiss, there.... what happens when you compare the Adjustment Mitigating version of Natural Bond to, say, Extend Spell or Empower Spell for the Druid?

Frankly in most melee circumstances even at 4th level a PC Barb or Fighter isn't getting hosed (I don't care about NPC's. I don't compare NPCs to PCs in general).

Stephen
I pick the DMG NPC Barbarian and Fighter simply because then I can say "go look at this standard, commonly-available example; he has X, Y, and Z, at level B of optimization" just to cut down on the "well, the Fighter/barbarian can have a higher attack bonus if he cuts down on his AC/HP/Saves/Whatever" or "the Fighter/Barbarian can have a higher AC if he cuts down on his AB/HP/Saves/Whatever" or "but we use a 40 point buy" and so on type of comments. The DMG example makes for a particular "average". If, spending a single feat and a piddly sum of gold makes a class feature from a strong class stronger than the class specialist at his specialty (even an NPC), there's a balance issue.

[Stephen_E]

Well, with the wording, it's a bonus to your effective druid level for purposes of X, Y, and Z - with the ability to grab level adjusted animal companions not in there. So while, as worded, it lets you have a Dire Bat at 4th with bonus HD, natural armor, strenght and Dex, bonus tricks, and Evasion, it doesn't let you take the Dire Bat at 1st; the list still requires you to be 4th level or higher before you can take the animal companion..

Fair point. You can still take a Dire Bat or Leopard at 4th lev, and advance it for 3 levels, i.e. +2HD ecetre, instantly.


Ah, right - switched examples midway through, missed that one in the editing.
Being "Trained for War" gives them armor proficiency. While yes, it might require a trick, a Druid gets bonus tricks; grab an Int-2 animal, spend a bonus trick on training for War, training tricks for, oh, Combat Riding (possibly switching out Guard or Heel for Attack Anything). A minimal animal companion has the potential for seven tricks. Adding Natural Bond into the mix also adds a trick. There's only 12 base tricks (possibly 13, if you include War) many of them overlap in function (Guard and Stay, Defend and Heel, and so on), many aren't useful to the unstealthy animal companions (seek, for instance), and some you can more handily do yourself (usually). .

What specifically is "trained for war". I'm not aware of any Trick called "Trained for War".


It would get an extra attack from a Wizard casting Haste on it; just not from boots of haste. Okay, it doesn't get iterative attacks... unless it's a single-attack critter and your effective Druid level hits 9th. If it's not a single-attack critter, it improves significantly at that point anyway, and it probably has more attacks than the fighter does anyway - usually for as much, if not more, damage (although the AC does lose the ability to intelligently Power Attack).Of course! Let's compare a feat often considered to put Druids over the top on the power spectrum with a feat that puts Druids over the top on the power spectrum! .

Haste give the target creature an additional attack with any weapon it's holding when making a fullattack. Since animals don't use weapons they hold they don't get a bonus attack. The feats and weapons PC have, as a general rule make them significantly nastier.


I pick the DMG NPC Barbarian and Fighter simply because then I can say "go look at this standard, commonly-available example; he has X, Y, and Z, at level B of optimization" just to cut down on the "well, the Fighter/barbarian can have a higher attack bonus if he cuts down on his AC/HP/Saves/Whatever" or "the Fighter/Barbarian can have a higher AC if he cuts down on his AB/HP/Saves/Whatever" or "but we use a 40 point buy" and so on type of comments. The DMG example makes for a particular "average". If, spending a single feat and a piddly sum of gold makes a class feature from a strong class stronger than the class specialist at his specialty (even an NPC), there's a balance issue.

Arguing balance in DnD is a pretty pointless thing at the best of times. DnD isn't balanced. Nonetheless with your particular example.
Unless you're using Elite Array, which IME very few do, any Barbarian will have 16 Str at the absolute minimum. Any buffs on the AComp are no more guaranteed than magic items on the PC, so for simplicities sake we can skip both. So we have Raging Barb, Str 18 (17+1 for 4th lev) +4 Rage = 22
So with MW weapon that's +11 to hit for 2d6+9 dam. 44 hps (leaving the Con at 14) and AC15 vs the Leopard with 38 hps (asumming its HPs are done the same as a PC) with +8 att 1d6+3, 2x +3 (1d3+1) and AC18 (I've yet to see how you get armour on it).

I'll put my money on the Barb, even before we add in 2-3 feats (I'm ignoring Rake because I don't think the Leopards likely to win the grapple).

Anyway to get back to the core of the matter. Natural Bond as written (and has customer Serv views it last time I asked) can be used to offset the penalty from Alterv animal Companions. If you wish to house rule against this because you feel it is to powerful you're fully entitled to, as you are also entiteled to nix Natural spell or anything else you wish. Just don't forget that you are making a Houserule and not applying RAW.

Stephen

[Jack_Simth]

Fair point. You can still take a Dire Bat or Leopard at 4th lev, and advance it for 3 levels, i.e. +2HD ecetre, instantly.



What specifically is "trained for war". I'm not aware of any Trick called "Trained for War".

It's under the Animal Type description (although it's not called out as a trick). You were the one that said it was probably about worth a trick. I was just going with that. I chose leather simply because there's no associated Armor Check Penalty, so it doesn't matter if the critter is proficient with the armor or not, provided it accepts it.


Haste give the target creature an additional attack with any weapon it's holding when making a fullattack. Since animals don't use weapons they hold they don't get a bonus attack. The feats and weapons PC have, as a general rule make them significantly nastier.Hmm. Didn't notice that quirk of the reading. Guess Monks don't get a bonus from Haste unless they're using manufactured weapons, then. Oh well. Sucks to be them.


Arguing balance in DnD is a pretty pointless thing at the best of times. DnD isn't balanced. Nonetheless with your particular example.
Unless you're using Elite Array, which IME very few do,
It is, however, the way the NPC I stated for comparison (the one in the DMG) is written. At 4th, he's got 35 HP, AC 17, +2 Initiative, 30 foot speed, Greataxe +9 for 1d12+3. Raging, that's 43 HP, AC 15, +2 Initiative, 30 foot speed, Greataxe +11 for 1d12+6 - and he can only do this twice per day. The Leopard (not actually the Combat Monkey of the 4th level group - that goes to the Ape) has 38 HP (well, 32.5, working as an NPC; 37.5 if it gets the 4th level stat boost and puts it in Con; 38 is a good number for it), init + 5, AC 20, Bite +8 for 1d6+3, two Claws +3 for 1d3+1.

Standard DMG Raging Barbarian-4 hits on a 9 or better for 1d12+6 (average of 6.9 damage per round, ignoring crits for the moment; the Leopard is expected to go down in about 5.5 rounds). Leopard bites on a 7 for 1d6+3 and claws on a 12 for 1d3+1 (average damage 6.8 per round, ignoring both crits and rake for now; the Standard DMG Raging Barbarian-4 is expected to go down in about 6.3 rounds). So the Standard DMG Raging Barbarian-4 is expected to win.... barely, with a normal distribution of rolls, and is quite possibly dying when the Rage wears off. This is ignoring the Leopard's Hide check, better movement, better initiative, and so on.

any Barbarian will have 16 Str at the absolute minimum.
Not the one statted out in the DMG. Well, he does, after he puts his 4th level boost into his 15 strength base.

Any buffs on the AComp are no more guaranteed than magic items on the PC, so for simplicities sake we can skip both. So we have Raging Barb, Str 18 (17+1 for 4th lev) +4 Rage = 22
So with MW weapon that's +11 to hit for 2d6+9 dam. 44 hps (leaving the Con at 14) and AC15 vs the Leopard with 38 hps (asumming its HPs are done the same as a PC) with +8 att 1d6+3, 2x +3 (1d3+1) and AC18 (I've yet to see how you get armour on it).

I'll put my money on the Barb, even before we add in 2-3 feats (I'm ignoring Rake because I don't think the Leopards likely to win the grapple).

Yeah, the barbarian is probably going to win against the unbuffed Leopard. It's close enough that either could get lucky, though. And the Druid is still there. A class feature, plus 1 feat, some skill ranks, and a 20 gp mundane item is going to give the raging barbarian a run for his money.

Meanwhile, the Druid is not overly hindered by the loss of a feat, the 20 gp, and some skill ranks in Handle Animal. For that matter, the Druid isn't overly hindered by the loss of the Animal Companion (a 24 hour ritual and some weeks of training replace it, no problems). While the Animal Companion keeps the Barbarian occupied for some rounds, the Druid that comes with is free to do... whatever. Zap, heal, buff, or melee as needed.


Anyway to get back to the core of the matter. Natural Bond as written (and has customer Serv views it last time I asked) can be used to offset the penalty from Alterv animal Companions.
I didn't say it doesn't work that way, RAW.

If you wish to house rule against this because you feel it is to powerful you're fully entitled to, as you are also entiteled to nix Natural spell or anything else you wish. Just don't forget that you are making a Houserule and not applying RAW.

StephenWhere did I say I actually nixed it? Where did I say that the bonuses to the level-adjusted animal companions weren't RAW? I'm curious. I said there were balance issues with it. I said it didn't quite do what you thought it did when you brought it up (which you conceeded - my specific point of contention was that it doesn't let you get the level adjusted animal companions early). You don't appear to be responding to anything with this segment.

[Stephen_E]

Jack, Thanks for the pointer regarding "Trained for War".
Don't you just love Wizards for having this feature "Trained for War" without telling you how to get it, or what it does exactly (does it give you proficincy or merely allow you to gain proficincy. If it gives you proficincy does it give you all Armour proficincies or what).

With out guidelines I'd be inclined to treat "Trained for War" as one trick which allows you to pick up armour proficineies and wear armour without proficinies, but taking the penalty. as additional tricks You can pick up the armour proficines. Without the War Training the beast simply won't wear barding (i.e. they'll destroy it getting it off, injurying themselves if necessary.

I thought you were comparing the Leopard to the Party Barbarian or Fighter. In which case you're talking about a PC, which are generally tuned better than the NPCs (well some people argue differently, but that's another battle).

I think we agree that while either way the Barbarian is liekly to be the victor, but it'll be close. The truth is that Druids are a power class right from the beginning, unlike Wiz's that need to get up around 10th.

Apologies if I came off sounding too agressive regarding RAW and houserules. I may've misunderstood what you were saying. My point is that Druids are simply a uber powerful class. You can houserule stuff to try and balance them, or you can rely on players not making full use of there abilities so as to not overshadow the rest of the party (In my current DnD campaign I'm pumping my PC's Animal Companion but doing little with Wildshaping (I'm intending to use my 6th and 9th lev feats to take the Wild feats that boost your Spot nd give you LowLight vision and 1/2s range penalties. I'll have a Spot up the wazoo, 30+ by lev 9, butI'm not competing with any PC on that, and it removes the temtation to Wildshape/Natural spell combat machine)

Re: Monks/Haste: I supect the class ability that says Monks unarmed attacks are treated as manafactured weapons for spells where it would be advantageous, would count for the purpose of Haste. Sure it requires a bit of "Nudge, nudge, wink, wink, sure it is" but then that's required throughout the Monk class, indeed is pretty much written into the class. "This is a COMPLTELY illogical class, and makes Wizards look RL in comparison, but lets pretend otherwise because they're fun".

Stephen

[Jack_Simth]

Well, if I really wanted the AC to win, I'd be more inclined to use the Ape - same druid level adjustment; with Natural Bond and Leather Barding (40 gp - large nonhumanoid), it gets...:

6d8+15 HP (42), AC 19, 2 Claws +9 Melee for 1d6+6 and Bite +4 Melee 1d6+3 - and a loose feat.
Vs. the Raging Barbarian-4 (using your example) at
44 HP, AC 15, Greatsword +11 for 2d6+9.

Raging Barbarian hits on an 8, for an average of 10.4 damage per round (ignoring crits); ape is expected to go down in a little over 4 rounds. Power Attacking for 3 (tied with 2 for the ideal Power Attack level for DPR; hits on an 11 for 2d6+15), the Raging Barbarian deals an average of 11 damage per round (ignoring crits); Ape is expected to go down in a little under 4 rounds. Ape hits on a 6/6/11, for an average of 17.5 damage per round (ignoring crits); barbarian is expected to go down in about 2 and a half rounds. And the Ape has natural reach, as it is large. Makes a useful mount too (if ill-suited for it) due to the climb speed.

... and that's assuming that the accompanying Druid-4 doesn't use any of the many buff spells at it's disposal, doesn't act as a flanking buddy, and so on.

In another couple of levels, the Ape will fall behind the Barbarian. But in another couple of levels, the Druid will start hitting the full caster sweet zone.