Ability Damage on Saving Throws

[Zaninel]

I know that when you take ability damage to CON, DEX or WIS it lowers the modifier for the save but if you managed to damage the ability all the way to 0 (except CON because that means they're dead) would that deny them their saving throw? I ask only because there are some ability damaging spells out there without a saving throw that could make it so the target wouldn't be able to resist, or dodge other spells.

These are the effects of having your DEX and WIS damaged to 0:
Dexterity 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless.
Wisdom 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a deep sleep filled with nightmares, helpless.

The biggest part that I can see is that it says they are helpless. Am I right in thinking they're denied a saving throw?

[Andezzar]

Helpless is not just a word describing that they can't help themselves but a condition with specific effects (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#helpless). Being denied a saving throw is not one of them. So even helpless creatures get a save.

[KillianHawkeye]

Confirming what Andezzar said. The only effect would be the -5 ability modifier from having a 0 in the relevant ability score. There aren't many things in the game (if there are any at all) that can force a creature to forfeit their Saving Throws against their will.

[Ashtagon]

Even sleeping cvharacters get Reflex saves against fireballs.

[Necroticplague]

Nope, you still get a saving throw. If being helpless meant you didn't get a saving throw, Nightmare and similar wouldn't allow saves (since a sleeping target is helpless). Now, you have a massive -5 stat modifier, so you'll have a hard time making the save, but you can at least roll for it.

[Andezzar]

Being helpless only gives you DEX 0. So Fort and Wil Saves are unaffected unless the helpless condition is caused by WIL 0. Fort saves are not affected because CON 0 would cause death anyways.

[AlanBruce]

It still begs the question how you can illustrate a PC at Dex 0, standing on the battlefield, completely paralyzed, their muscles stiff. Fear clearly shown through their eyes as these dart back and fortrh and then the enemy mage tosses a fireball…

And then the PC's player rolls a natural 20.

I know the PC would get half damage, but how to explain it fluff wise? The guy can't move!

[Forrestfire]

Rolling over through sheer heroic effort? Incredible luck causing the blast to just barely miss him? If they're a mage, willing a short-lived barrier into existence? Powering through half the damage by being just that badass? I feel like it depends on the tone of the game, but is decently easy to come up with an explanation. After all, HP is an abstraction including stuff like luck, stamina, and the like, on top of actual wounds.

[Andezzar]

Some parts of the fireball are only half as hot as other parts, the helpless character still is damaged. It gets particularly silly if the helpless creature is a character with (improved) evasion....

[Mato]

Some parts of the fireball are only half as hot as other parts, the helpless character still is damaged. It gets particularly silly if the helpless creature is a character with (improved) evasion....

Improved Evasion (Ex)
This ability works like evasion, except that while the rogue still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks henceforth she takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.


Only willing targets are denied saving throws, if you want to force someone to be willing just knock the out with nonlethal damage. Then you can do what you want to them. :smallwink:

[Andezzar]

OK then. So no sleeping rogues completely dodging fireballs.

[atemu1234]

Rolling over through sheer heroic effort? Incredible luck causing the blast to just barely miss him? If they're a mage, willing a short-lived barrier into existence? Powering through half the damage by being just that badass? I feel like it depends on the tone of the game, but is decently easy to come up with an explanation. After all, HP is an abstraction including stuff like luck, stamina, and the like, on top of actual wounds.


OK then. So no sleeping rogues completely dodging fireballs.

Though it would be awesome.

[Andezzar]

One man's awesome is another man's silly.