Help: Paladin performs/directs a coup

[Iwasforger03]

I'm running a game where we're about to enter a very large war with the big bad. There's a city led by a very evil lord (he's a rapist, a racist against Half Elves, and a jerk). He's nominally part of the overall alliance we've got going, but he might be a traitor to it, and even if he's not, he's an idiot, and he's, as noted evil. However, he's leader of an independent city state, he's the lawful leader of that city according to its laws, and he's not technically subject to the laws of any of the other allied nations, unless he happens to be an actual traitor to the overall alliance.

I'm party leader, and I'm playing paladin. We passed through his city back at the start of the campaign. It's a long time later, and for both practical reasons and role playing reasons, my Paladin feels like he owes a debt to the people in that city, and the only way to repay it is to be rid of the guy. Arrest him, depose him, SOMETHING. But... I'm the paladin, and I want to remove a lawful leader from his position in a region where I don't have any actual authority.

How can I accomplish this without violating my paladin oath and alignment?

I had considered a popular uprising, but I'm uncertain it would be enough, as it would still be illegal. Should I hunt down all the city laws/codes and see if he's violated any? But would that actually remove him from office?

[sleepyphoenixx]

Alignment in D&D is a rather nebulous affair and a lot of it depends on DM interpretation, specifically in the case of paladins. So take the following as my interpretation and discuss it with your DM to be sure where he falls.

Being lawful doesn't mean you follow every law blindly. It just means you prefer to work within the rules and favor a ordered society.
Following a code of honor (such as the codex of a paladin order) is also lawful.
In the case you've outlined it's well within a paladins alignment to break laws and work against the tyrannical government, especially after official approaches have been exhausted.

Paladins are often in conflict between the lawful and good parts of their alignment. Which of the two you favor depends on the character.
Your groups opinions may differ, but i find that it is often more in keeping with the classical paladin image to go with good over law when the question comes up.

[Blackhawk748]

Alignment in D&D is a rather nebulous affair and a lot of it depends on DM interpretation, specifically in the case of paladins. So take the following as my interpretation and discuss it with your DM to be sure where he falls.

Being lawful doesn't mean you follow every law blindly. It just means you prefer to work within the rules and favor a ordered society.
Following a code of honor (such as the codex of a paladin order) is also lawful.
In the case you've outlined it's well within a paladins alignment to break laws and work against the tyrannical government, especially after official approaches have been exhausted.

Paladins are often in conflict between the lawful and good parts of their alignment. Which of the two you favor depends on the character.
Your groups opinions may differ, but i find that it is often more in keeping with the classical paladin image to go with good over law when the question comes up.

Seconding this, also if your going to have an uprising try to go with a Military Coup instead of a straight popular uprising, not only does this get the army on your side, but it will probably be over faster and cleaner because (this is assuming the army is competent) they can cut the head off (figuratively) of the tyrannical government in a rapid surgical strike. As a bonus the Military will maintain Law and Order until something more permanent comes up.

Or in a surprise turn of events maybe the people actually like living in a Militocracy.

[Krobar]

As said, talk to your DM. Personally, I wouldn't give you any grief over this. Someone has to bring proper law, order, and justice to this corrupt place.

Is there a temple you can consult with, or does your god ever respond to prayers for guidance? These are a couple ways you could get a feel for how your DM might handle it in character.

[PsyBomb]

Have you ever read the Marvel Civil War series? Captain America is basically that paladin through it.

[atemu1234]

Have you ever read the Marvel Civil War series? Captain America is basically that paladin through it.

He is most of the time, really.

[Sith_Happens]

This guy can be extremely easily rationalized as not-a-legitimate-authority. Don't sweat over it.

[malonkey1]

Look at it from a more modernized political theory: Power comes from a mandate from the masses. If the masses demand a change in regime, then one could argue that the current leader ceases to be rightfully in charge regardless of written laws, and it is in fact the Paladin's duty to overthrow him.

That's one possibility, at least.

[Ashtagon]

Look at it from a more modernized political theory: Power comes from a mandate from the masses. If the masses demand a change in regime, then one could argue that the current leader ceases to be rightfully in charge regardless of written laws, and it is in fact the Paladin's duty to overthrow him.

That's one possibility, at least.

No. Power and authority clearly comes from some watery tart handing the king a glowing sword. Since this has plainly not happened for the existing ruler, he is illegitimate and should be removed.

http://www.intriguing.com/mp/_scripts/peasant.php

[atemu1234]

No. Power and authority clearly comes from some watery tart handing the king a glowing sword. Since this has plainly not happened for the existing ruler, he is illegitimate and should be removed.

http://www.intriguing.com/mp/_scripts/peasant.php

Same difference.

[AkuArkaine]

It still comes down to DM fiat. Spend some time praying over your proposed actions then do what is needed. I personally wouldn't grief you over this either, but maybe divine right of kings is actually enforced by the gods in your world. In that case you're doomed.

[Blackhawk748]

It still comes down to DM fiat. Spend some time praying over your proposed actions then do what is needed. I personally wouldn't grief you over this either, but maybe divine right of kings is actually enforced by the gods in your world. In that case you're doomed.

Even if it is, some other gods may agree that he should be deposed, therefore your good to go again. As always this comes down to what your DM thinks.

[Sith_Happens]

Look at it from a more modernized political theory: Power comes from a mandate from the masses. If the masses demand a change in regime, then one could argue that the current leader ceases to be rightfully in charge regardless of written laws, and it is in fact the Paladin's duty to overthrow him.

That's one possibility, at least.

This is more of a Paladin of Freedom thing to me, but there's plenty enough situations where a vanilla Paladin could say the same thing and this is almost certainly one of them.

[Iwasforger03]

I and my paladin thank you all! I think thanks to your help I can persuade the DM (who can get really hardline about what constitutes "lawful good" and "paladin" sometimes) that I can legit overthrow this guy. I still want the popular support, but with a +40 to diplomacy, that shouldn't be hard!

Thanks everyone!


Ya know, Cap IS a paladin... so how come we couldn't get a Cap Archetype for Paladin? Just Brawler?

[malonkey1]

I and my paladin thank you all! I think thanks to your help I can persuade the DM (who can get really hardline about what constitutes "lawful good" and "paladin" sometimes) that I can legit overthrow this guy. I still want the popular support, but with a +40 to diplomacy, that shouldn't be hard!

Thanks everyone!


Ya know, Cap IS a paladin... so how come we couldn't get a Cap Archetype for Paladin? Just Brawler?

You know, maybe I'll make a Patriot archetype for the Paladin/Antipaladin (so we can include Red Skull).

[Coidzor]

I'm running a game where we're about to enter a very large war with the big bad. There's a city led by a very evil lord (he's a rapist, a racist against Half Elves, and a jerk). He's nominally part of the overall alliance we've got going, but he might be a traitor to it, and even if he's not, he's an idiot, and he's, as noted evil. However, he's leader of an independent city state, he's the lawful leader of that city according to its laws, and he's not technically subject to the laws of any of the other allied nations, unless he happens to be an actual traitor to the overall alliance.

I'm party leader, and I'm playing paladin. We passed through his city back at the start of the campaign. It's a long time later, and for both practical reasons and role playing reasons, my Paladin feels like he owes a debt to the people in that city, and the only way to repay it is to be rid of the guy. Arrest him, depose him, SOMETHING. But... I'm the paladin, and I want to remove a lawful leader from his position in a region where I don't have any actual authority.

How can I accomplish this without violating my paladin oath and alignment?

I had considered a popular uprising, but I'm uncertain it would be enough, as it would still be illegal. Should I hunt down all the city laws/codes and see if he's violated any? But would that actually remove him from office?

You're allowed to kill tyrants as a Paladin unless your DM has done something squirrely. Next question.

How best to go about breaking alliance with him to minimize the political repercussions of deposing the head of state of one of your allies is the better question.

This guy can be extremely easily rationalized as not-a-legitimate-authority. Don't sweat over it.

He's also Evil and harming the innocent. You have a mandate to smite evil and protect the innocent and punish those who harm the innocent. And probably something about those who pervert justice to their own ends. So, y'know, he needs smiting.

[Iwasforger03]

You know, maybe I'll make a Patriot archetype for the Paladin/Antipaladin (so we can include Red Skull).

Sounds fantastic!

[Callin]

Devils Advocate here

What is his Alignment, Lawful, Neutral, or Chaotic on the Spectrum? What are the Laws of his Independent City State? Me as a DM Evil does not equate a Death Sentence. That is Lawful Stupid. Only Supernatural Evil is, Demons and such. Is Rape legal in his City State? How does he execute his Racism towards Half Elves? Idiocy should be a crime punishable by death but isnt. All of this needs to be factored in or else yes to me you would fall but an easy atonement either by quest or spell would fix you up. Not even a hard quest, just something to reaffirm your faith.

[malonkey1]

Sounds fantastic!

Rough version:

Patriot Paladin/Antipaladin archetype:

Inspiration/Terror (Ex):
Your presence on the battlefield means salvation for allies or death for enemies. Paladins replace their spellcasting ability with a constant passive buffing effect, while Antipaladins debuff enemies. All creatures within 60 feet of the Paladin add the Paladin's Charisma bonus to attacks (excluding the Paladin). At level 5, he may apply the bonus to his allies' AC instead, switching between the bonuses as a swift action. At level 10, The Paladin can apply the bonus to his allies' saving throws. At level 20, the benefit applies to attack, AC, and saving throws simultaneously. Antipaladins instead impose their Charisma bonus as a penalty to all enemies within range.
This replaces spellcasting.

Bonus Feats:
A Patriot is even more focused on combat than other Paladins, and as a result, eschews the healing abilities of other Paladins for improved battle prowess. At levels 2, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, and 18, a patriot receives a bonus Combat feat whose prerequisites he meets.
This replaces Lay on Hands and Mercies for Paladins, and Touch of Corruption and Cruelties for Antipaladins.

Martial Flexibility (Ex):
Patriots are highly adaptable combatants, willing to wield any weapon in any way to protect their nation. At level 4, a Patriot may gain the benefits of a Combat Feat he doesn't have for 1 minute. At level 10, he can select 1 combat feat as a swift action, or 2 combat feats as a move action. At level 16, this improves to one combat feat as a free action, two as a swift action, or 3 as a move action. This is otherwise identical to the Brawler class feature of the same name, and may be used 3 + 1/2 Paladin/Antipaladin level times per day, and you can expend a use of your Smite ability to activiate this ability.
This replaces the ability to Channel Energy.

Divine Bond/Fiendish Boon:
A Patriot must select the weapon version of Divine Bond or Fiendish Boon.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Devils Advocate here

What is his Alignment, Lawful, Neutral, or Chaotic on the Spectrum? What are the Laws of his Independent City State? Me as a DM Evil does not equate a Death Sentence. That is Lawful Stupid. Only Supernatural Evil is, Demons and such. Is Rape legal in his City State? How does he execute his Racism towards Half Elves? Idiocy should be a crime punishable by death but isnt. All of this needs to be factored in or else yes to me you would fall but an easy atonement either by quest or spell would fix you up. Not even a hard quest, just something to reaffirm your faith.

It doesn't matter if rape, murder of half-elves or slavery are illegal or not in a specific state or city. A paladin is bound by the code of his order first, before the laws of the land.

Evil alignment does not equate a death sentence, that's true. The actions you take do though, and if you've fixed it so you're beyond the local law the paladin in question doesn't have a lot of options. He certainly won't go "oh, that's too bad. Sorry, assorted victims, the law says it's ok so there's nothing i can do here".

Still, if there's any doubt the solution in this case is simple. The situation is not time-critical. He can consult with clerics of his faith, pray for guidance or even appeal to a high ranking member of his order for a Commune or Planar Ally to get advice directly from his god or a celestial in his gods service.

Not that i think he needs it in this case, it seems pretty clear to me. Maybe not death but the tyrants removal from power should be a given. But the options are there.

[Coidzor]

What is his Alignment, Lawful, Neutral, or Chaotic on the Spectrum? What are the Laws of his Independent City State? Me as a DM Evil does not equate a Death Sentence. That is Lawful Stupid.

Did you miss the part where he was a rapist and tyrant? :smalltongue: He can make up whatever laws he damn well pleases. That should never be carte blanche defense against Paladins bringing him to JusticeTM.


Only Supernatural Evil is, Demons and such.

Well, yes, if he can be fixed then he should be fixed, but fixing him will probably involve at least some level of smiting first.


Is Rape legal in his City State?

That's not being a Devil's Advocate, that's just being silly. :smalltongue:

[Callin]

Yes the Rape part is a bit silly and really the only crime I see here that is punishable. From what has been said. I personally would need more info and yes consulting a higher power as well.

[Iwasforger03]

I think I can get it past the DM now. Probably. I'll let you know if it fails.

In the meantime, I need to start a new topic. I want to see if I can use diplomacy to unmake someone's name.

[Coidzor]

I think I can get it past the DM now. Probably. I'll let you know if it fails.

In the meantime, I need to start a new topic. I want to see if I can use diplomacy to unmake someone's name.

Sounds more like you want Truespeech for that. :smallamused:

[Iwasforger03]

Book(s)? Must know more.

[atemu1234]

Book(s)? Must know more.

Don't bother. True speech is a horridly underpowered subsystem.

[Talionis]

Did you miss the part where he was a rapist and tyrant? :smalltongue: He can make up whatever laws he damn well pleases. That should never be carte blanche defense against Paladins bringing him to JusticeTM.



Well, yes, if he can be fixed then he should be fixed, but fixing him will probably involve at least some level of smiting first.



That's not being a Devil's Advocate, that's just being silly. :smalltongue:

I've always played that a Paladin's oath is to his God and Lord. He will take with him those values.

I've never felt like a Paladin had a problem going into other lands and trying to tell them exactly what they were doing wrong. Most good Paladin's would go into conniption fits in places like Thay.

I've always played the Oath as to the base home and up bringings. I mean if a ruler he was sworn to was overthrown by force, by an evil tyrant, they don't go from being a sworn enemy to your boss because he puts a crown on his head.

Your DM will control ultimately what happens and a good conversation between you to on each other's expectations and concerns is a good idea.

The other thing is even if your DM says its against your Oath, some things are worth atonement and this would seem like an occasion for your character to break your Oath and then have to do atonement.

Me though, I wouldn't have a problem with a Paladin helping to depose a leader who was evil.

[Blackhawk748]

Don't bother. True speech is a horridly underpowered subsystem.

Very true, but Unname is freakin awesome.

[Larkas]

There's a rather easy way to rationalize this: Divine Laws are above Worldly Laws. That is to say: your god says that people should be treated fairly and with benevolence. If the tyrant isn't even trying to look like he's doing that, well, tough luck.

That doesn't mean you get to kick his manor's doors open, guns blazing. You'll probably want to publicly challenge him, saying that he should step down from his office and be tried for his crimes. Obviously, he won't, and he'll send his guards/personal army your way. You defeat those and keep moving on, always saying that he should repent and step down from his office. When you finally get to him, either on your own or backed by an army, you depose him and have him tried, and instate some Good leader in his place. Of course, this is just one way to do it.

What I'm trying to say is: it's fairly easy to rationalize the Lawful part of the paladin's alignment as him always looking up to the Perfect Laws of God first and to the Imperfect Laws of Men second. Paladins are idealists, and whereas they won't riot against every other rule that goes slightly against what their god preaches, or even rules that go directly against it but that aren't Evil at heart, they will certainly see as justified taking down a tyranny that is destroying their subjects' lives.

Of course, things can get grayer if that tyranny is a lesser of two evils... :smallamused:

[Iwasforger03]

I think I can justify this. Thanks to all of you, again. Also glad to see so many people want to help/talk about this. I'm sure many of you have dealt with paladin's falling in the past, haven't you?

[Blackhawk748]

I think I can justify this. Thanks to all of you, again. Also glad to see so many people want to help/talk about this. I'm sure many of you have dealt with paladin's falling in the past, haven't you?

Actually i never have, its just this weird thing about this forum that we seem to enjoy discussing paladins, probably because they come with the most fluff baggage.