Komatik
2014-12-25, 06:12 PM
Starting a new thread for personality type-related discussion because the topic is too interesting to let die and the old one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?342539-How-Accurately-Did-Personality-Tests-Describe-You-Scary-Accurate) had a bunch of people thinking in letters instead of functions, so it's perhaps better to start with a clean slate, a more useful viewpoint and give people some answers ^^
Basically, you know those internet personality type tests? That assign you a four-letter type like INTJ or ESFP and then tell you accurate-or-not stuff about yourself? Maybe they tell you that you're INxJ and don't really prefer either thinking or feeling with a fancy bar graph attached.
That kind of thinking is Badwrongthink :smalltongue:
Please, pleasepleaseplease don't use MBTI types "with the letters". What I mean to say with this is that the best part of Jungian typology are the functions and the function stacks - the four letter acronym is best used as a shorthand description, and little else.
What matters is the functions, because they are how a person perceives and evaluates the world. Those mechanisms are what can actually tell you about yourself (what kinds of work/hobbies you might find satisfying, what kinds of pitfalls your function stack represents that you might do well to keep an eye out for) and what can actually help you understand how other people perceive the world and just how utterly different from you they can be - understanding them instead of thinking they're idiots.
For a more concrete example of "by the letters" is the standard approach of "Do I favour introversion or extraversion? Do I favour sensing or intuition, thinking or feeling? Am I a judger or a perceiver?" This can lead to horrid, horrid confusion.
For example: INTP and INTJ are both introverted, intuitive and thinking type people? One just prefers watching things and the other evaluating things, no? Both types certainly come across as smart and logical, right? Nope. Let's go beyond the type code and look at what functions and in what order these people actually use - that is to say, what kinds of methods they actually use to take in and digest information.
An INTP code is to be interpreted as "Dominant function introverted, NT type dominant functions, the first extraverted function is a perceiving one". From this, their iNtuition is Extraverted, and must be auxiliary. Dominant introverted Thinking represses extraverted Feeling, for an overall stack of TiNe SiFe.
Compare this to an INTJ: They extravert their judgment, so Te. Primary function must be Introverted Intuition. Ending stack is NiTeFiSe.
INTP
INTJ
Dominant
Ti
Ni
Auxiliary
Ne
Te
Tertiary
Si
Fi
Inferior
Fe
Se
NOT ONE FUNCTION IN COMMON. An INTP's primary functions are in nature a deductive one that builds internal logical structures predicated on first principles (wishing to distill everything into a single principle or a small set of them from which the answers can be reasoned out), and it's observation is aimed directly at the outside world, with an eye towards the possibilities springing from any object of study. Their perception is, in a sense, a brainstorming one. When met with a problem, an INTP reasons out the solution based on logical deduction. They extravert themselves to the outside world with Ne, which in addition to figuring out a multitude of possibilities arising from their observation has a flighty character to it.
Compare to an INTJ: Introverted Intuition is a perceptive function that lives everywhere but the here and now. It does not see the world directly, but rather looks at the impressions observations leave in the Ni user's mind. In Ni's case, it's a function that finds patterns in multiple, maybe seemingly unconnected observations, draws parallels between things and all told tries to condense things into singular, holistic, large-scale visions about things.
Their Thinking function orients itself not to an inner world of principles, but to the outside world of facts. Te is a very grounded function that looks at the facts and what can be seen from them. If Ti is deductive, reasoning and perfecting, Te is inductive, heuristic and no-nonsense function that wants to see if things are up to snuff, optimize, order.
This means an INTJ is not a logical person in the common sense of the word - when you see an INTJ explain something at length, they are not actually reasoning out a problem to come to a conclusion. That job has been done unconsciously by Ni when they were alone, and what they are doing now is explaining that huge, multifaceted vision in precise language (for which he needs lots of words - see yours truly here) and rationalizing after the fact how they ended up with their conclusion. This can sometimes end up being shoddy or internally inconsistent in a way the principles-driven Ti user would never succumb to.
To quote economist Friedrich Hayek on economist Ludwig von Mises: "He was usually right in his conclusions, but I was [never] completely satisfied with his argument."
So forget the type codes, and concentrate on the functions. See what functions you seem to use, because that ends up being correct more than multiple choice tests with poor retesting reliability. Those tests are a nice starting point, but they're only that.
I'm either ISTJ or ISFJ. The third letter is contentious to me because I don't think I truly favor one approach over the other. I usually do both, if I'm understanding the distinction right, at least when when I'm aware enough of how I'm approaching a problem.
The contrast between ISTJ and ISFJ is not between thinking and feeling - the tertiary function can be quite developed especially later on in life, see people thinking TiSe NiFe user Steve Jobs is a primary Ni user - but rather between the Te-Fi and Fe-Ti function axes. ISTJ and ISFJ both have both Thinking and Feeling functions that are not repressed and consciously usable.
The Te-Fi axis means:
Extraverted Thinking - No-nonsense, organizing, expendient, dominating. Prefers to evaluate things based on whether they fit objective, measurable criteria
with
Introverted Feeling - Strong inner values, strong belief that people are distinct from one another, self-esteem and values derived from the inside, no concern or interest in what other people think or for making them comfortable. Fi users don't need to be told how others feel - they think they know anyway. Evaluates things based on whether they fit the person's inner valueset. Strong concern for authenticity, can fiercely champion a cause. Tends not to demonstrate feelings outwardly.
The Te-Fi axis tends to give rise to a frame of thinking where people are decidedly different, separate, themselves, not cut from the same cloth. In a good way, it drives people to strive and, to quote Paracelsus: "If you have been given a talent, exercise it freely and happily like the sun: give everyone from your splendour."
On the bad side, Te-Fi might decide the weak are unworthy to live and we end up in some very horrible place.
Fe-Ti axis means:
Extraverted Feeling - Accommodating, appropriate, harmony-seeking. Evaluates things based on whether they leave the group feeling happier or whether they sow discord. Fe derives its self-esteem from the approval of others and tends to absorb values from the outside. Fe users tend to radiate a certain warmth that Fi users just don't have. The good guy Fe user cares genuinely, the bad guy Fe user can appear the friendliest person in the world while not giving a **** about you inside. Unlike Fi users, Fe users do not typically have a strong sense of "who I really am" - jokingly, they wear masks and have no "soul".
Introverted Thinking: Logical in the classical sense, driven to formulate things into principles and sound logical systems that cut to the very heart of the matter. Often belabored, concerned with accuracy and integrity, unconcerned with real-world goals by itself.
It should also be noted that Si (which you have) and Se are very different functions.
Se is the opposite of Ni - Se is bar none the most concrete function, one that lives in the here and now. It is direct, photographic, unfiltered perception, the raw sensation of being in the here and now, acting quickly, living the moment. Se users tend to perceive themselves as "sunk into" the environment.
Si is a function that, like Ni, is directed inwardly. It also captures impressions of a person's observations, but instead of associating those impressions into huge "vision-blobs" which it seeks to maintain as small a number as possible, Si is cataloguing in nature. It's a historian of the person's experience and tends to form new frames of reference when approaching novel experiences. Si users are typically habitual, have good memory,quickly coming up with solutions that have worked previously.
Given the function's historical outlook, Si users tend to display a certain distrust of the future, looking at it as unpredictable and thus uncertain, maybe threatening. This outlook gives rise to preparation and diligence - Si wants to be ready come what may, while an Ni user may chronically underprepare because he thinks he knows how things will unfold.
An Si user friend described the Si experience of being in a space as playing a computer game - you are you, very much separate from the world and kind of looking at it through a screen.
MBTI tests consistently rate me as one of two types, ENTJ or INTJ, with the latter being slightly more common. "Intuitive, thinking, judging" do fit me well enough.
ENTJ and INTJ share the same functional stack - introverted Intuition, extraverted Thinking, introverted Feeling and Extraverted Sensing - or NiTe FiSe for short. They're very similar types, but there are some differences.
Do you find yourself needing time away from people lest you're just drained of all energy, thinking about systems a lot, maybe chronically indulging in / binging on sensual pleasures (food, drink, light drugs, sex)? Are you ok with having superiors as long as you think those superiors are competent?
Do you feel the need to be around people to energize yourself, order and organize things, have control over your environment to the point you can barely stand being ordered around (Caesar: "I would rather be first in a village than second in Rome.") and revel in leadership? Is your attitude towards problems to simply crush them to the point there will not be a problem again, period. Trouble expressing value judgments instead of objective evaluation of how the thing/person is?
If the first, INTJ. Second, ENTJ.
Myers Brigg tests are actually fairly legitimate - although, if you read descriptions of the other 15 types you'll almost certainly see yourself in some of them, for the simple reason that there are more than 16 personalities out there. Still, it manages decently. I personally am a --TJ, if I remember correctly, with the first two fluctuating, and those legitimately do show up more than the other personalities.
Do you see yourself in some of those function descriptions?
Basically, you know those internet personality type tests? That assign you a four-letter type like INTJ or ESFP and then tell you accurate-or-not stuff about yourself? Maybe they tell you that you're INxJ and don't really prefer either thinking or feeling with a fancy bar graph attached.
That kind of thinking is Badwrongthink :smalltongue:
Please, pleasepleaseplease don't use MBTI types "with the letters". What I mean to say with this is that the best part of Jungian typology are the functions and the function stacks - the four letter acronym is best used as a shorthand description, and little else.
What matters is the functions, because they are how a person perceives and evaluates the world. Those mechanisms are what can actually tell you about yourself (what kinds of work/hobbies you might find satisfying, what kinds of pitfalls your function stack represents that you might do well to keep an eye out for) and what can actually help you understand how other people perceive the world and just how utterly different from you they can be - understanding them instead of thinking they're idiots.
For a more concrete example of "by the letters" is the standard approach of "Do I favour introversion or extraversion? Do I favour sensing or intuition, thinking or feeling? Am I a judger or a perceiver?" This can lead to horrid, horrid confusion.
For example: INTP and INTJ are both introverted, intuitive and thinking type people? One just prefers watching things and the other evaluating things, no? Both types certainly come across as smart and logical, right? Nope. Let's go beyond the type code and look at what functions and in what order these people actually use - that is to say, what kinds of methods they actually use to take in and digest information.
An INTP code is to be interpreted as "Dominant function introverted, NT type dominant functions, the first extraverted function is a perceiving one". From this, their iNtuition is Extraverted, and must be auxiliary. Dominant introverted Thinking represses extraverted Feeling, for an overall stack of TiNe SiFe.
Compare this to an INTJ: They extravert their judgment, so Te. Primary function must be Introverted Intuition. Ending stack is NiTeFiSe.
INTP
INTJ
Dominant
Ti
Ni
Auxiliary
Ne
Te
Tertiary
Si
Fi
Inferior
Fe
Se
NOT ONE FUNCTION IN COMMON. An INTP's primary functions are in nature a deductive one that builds internal logical structures predicated on first principles (wishing to distill everything into a single principle or a small set of them from which the answers can be reasoned out), and it's observation is aimed directly at the outside world, with an eye towards the possibilities springing from any object of study. Their perception is, in a sense, a brainstorming one. When met with a problem, an INTP reasons out the solution based on logical deduction. They extravert themselves to the outside world with Ne, which in addition to figuring out a multitude of possibilities arising from their observation has a flighty character to it.
Compare to an INTJ: Introverted Intuition is a perceptive function that lives everywhere but the here and now. It does not see the world directly, but rather looks at the impressions observations leave in the Ni user's mind. In Ni's case, it's a function that finds patterns in multiple, maybe seemingly unconnected observations, draws parallels between things and all told tries to condense things into singular, holistic, large-scale visions about things.
Their Thinking function orients itself not to an inner world of principles, but to the outside world of facts. Te is a very grounded function that looks at the facts and what can be seen from them. If Ti is deductive, reasoning and perfecting, Te is inductive, heuristic and no-nonsense function that wants to see if things are up to snuff, optimize, order.
This means an INTJ is not a logical person in the common sense of the word - when you see an INTJ explain something at length, they are not actually reasoning out a problem to come to a conclusion. That job has been done unconsciously by Ni when they were alone, and what they are doing now is explaining that huge, multifaceted vision in precise language (for which he needs lots of words - see yours truly here) and rationalizing after the fact how they ended up with their conclusion. This can sometimes end up being shoddy or internally inconsistent in a way the principles-driven Ti user would never succumb to.
To quote economist Friedrich Hayek on economist Ludwig von Mises: "He was usually right in his conclusions, but I was [never] completely satisfied with his argument."
So forget the type codes, and concentrate on the functions. See what functions you seem to use, because that ends up being correct more than multiple choice tests with poor retesting reliability. Those tests are a nice starting point, but they're only that.
I'm either ISTJ or ISFJ. The third letter is contentious to me because I don't think I truly favor one approach over the other. I usually do both, if I'm understanding the distinction right, at least when when I'm aware enough of how I'm approaching a problem.
The contrast between ISTJ and ISFJ is not between thinking and feeling - the tertiary function can be quite developed especially later on in life, see people thinking TiSe NiFe user Steve Jobs is a primary Ni user - but rather between the Te-Fi and Fe-Ti function axes. ISTJ and ISFJ both have both Thinking and Feeling functions that are not repressed and consciously usable.
The Te-Fi axis means:
Extraverted Thinking - No-nonsense, organizing, expendient, dominating. Prefers to evaluate things based on whether they fit objective, measurable criteria
with
Introverted Feeling - Strong inner values, strong belief that people are distinct from one another, self-esteem and values derived from the inside, no concern or interest in what other people think or for making them comfortable. Fi users don't need to be told how others feel - they think they know anyway. Evaluates things based on whether they fit the person's inner valueset. Strong concern for authenticity, can fiercely champion a cause. Tends not to demonstrate feelings outwardly.
The Te-Fi axis tends to give rise to a frame of thinking where people are decidedly different, separate, themselves, not cut from the same cloth. In a good way, it drives people to strive and, to quote Paracelsus: "If you have been given a talent, exercise it freely and happily like the sun: give everyone from your splendour."
On the bad side, Te-Fi might decide the weak are unworthy to live and we end up in some very horrible place.
Fe-Ti axis means:
Extraverted Feeling - Accommodating, appropriate, harmony-seeking. Evaluates things based on whether they leave the group feeling happier or whether they sow discord. Fe derives its self-esteem from the approval of others and tends to absorb values from the outside. Fe users tend to radiate a certain warmth that Fi users just don't have. The good guy Fe user cares genuinely, the bad guy Fe user can appear the friendliest person in the world while not giving a **** about you inside. Unlike Fi users, Fe users do not typically have a strong sense of "who I really am" - jokingly, they wear masks and have no "soul".
Introverted Thinking: Logical in the classical sense, driven to formulate things into principles and sound logical systems that cut to the very heart of the matter. Often belabored, concerned with accuracy and integrity, unconcerned with real-world goals by itself.
It should also be noted that Si (which you have) and Se are very different functions.
Se is the opposite of Ni - Se is bar none the most concrete function, one that lives in the here and now. It is direct, photographic, unfiltered perception, the raw sensation of being in the here and now, acting quickly, living the moment. Se users tend to perceive themselves as "sunk into" the environment.
Si is a function that, like Ni, is directed inwardly. It also captures impressions of a person's observations, but instead of associating those impressions into huge "vision-blobs" which it seeks to maintain as small a number as possible, Si is cataloguing in nature. It's a historian of the person's experience and tends to form new frames of reference when approaching novel experiences. Si users are typically habitual, have good memory,quickly coming up with solutions that have worked previously.
Given the function's historical outlook, Si users tend to display a certain distrust of the future, looking at it as unpredictable and thus uncertain, maybe threatening. This outlook gives rise to preparation and diligence - Si wants to be ready come what may, while an Ni user may chronically underprepare because he thinks he knows how things will unfold.
An Si user friend described the Si experience of being in a space as playing a computer game - you are you, very much separate from the world and kind of looking at it through a screen.
MBTI tests consistently rate me as one of two types, ENTJ or INTJ, with the latter being slightly more common. "Intuitive, thinking, judging" do fit me well enough.
ENTJ and INTJ share the same functional stack - introverted Intuition, extraverted Thinking, introverted Feeling and Extraverted Sensing - or NiTe FiSe for short. They're very similar types, but there are some differences.
Do you find yourself needing time away from people lest you're just drained of all energy, thinking about systems a lot, maybe chronically indulging in / binging on sensual pleasures (food, drink, light drugs, sex)? Are you ok with having superiors as long as you think those superiors are competent?
Do you feel the need to be around people to energize yourself, order and organize things, have control over your environment to the point you can barely stand being ordered around (Caesar: "I would rather be first in a village than second in Rome.") and revel in leadership? Is your attitude towards problems to simply crush them to the point there will not be a problem again, period. Trouble expressing value judgments instead of objective evaluation of how the thing/person is?
If the first, INTJ. Second, ENTJ.
Myers Brigg tests are actually fairly legitimate - although, if you read descriptions of the other 15 types you'll almost certainly see yourself in some of them, for the simple reason that there are more than 16 personalities out there. Still, it manages decently. I personally am a --TJ, if I remember correctly, with the first two fluctuating, and those legitimately do show up more than the other personalities.
Do you see yourself in some of those function descriptions?