Can someone tell me how wizards defend themselves?

[magicalmagicman]

I'm still somewhat new to the game. Wizards, especially generalist wizards, have a very limited amount of spells per day. Can someone tell me how to defend yourself?

Mage Armor + shield for AC, maybe a spiderskin later
Mirror Image for %miss
Displacement for % miss
Protection from arrows for against arrows
Fly/levitate for immunity to melee attacks


and that's all I got. I considered invisibility but too many creatures have a high listen check.

Twilight mithral chain shirt seems to replace mage armor, but what other enchantments should I give it? Etherealness?

All levels are fine, but I'd like to know both low level defenses and high level defenses.

edit: added some additional stuff other people suggested

[Hamste]

Abrupt Jaunt conjuration specialist wizard is pretty good at defending themself.

[Jeraa]

I considered invisibility but too many creatures have a high listen check.

Invisibility is still useful - even if an enemy can detect which square the wizard is in, they still have a 50% miss chance trying to hit him.

Some means of flight - melee creatures don't even have a chance to hit you if they can't reach you.

Contingency spell, tied to a Teleport - with the right activation conditions, even if the enemy catches the wizard, his Teleport spell goes off and moves him to safety

Wind Wall will protect from archers. (Protection from Arrows only provides damage reduction - Wind Wall completely negates an archers attacks, in addition to having other effects.)

[eggynack]

That's a lot in terms of the stopping basic stuff style of defenses. Mirror image in particular is broader and more powerful than just about any mundane defense. Beyond that, things tend to be quite a bit more focused. You have stuff like heart of water to protect you from anything stopping your movement, or magic circle to stop summons and mental influence, or eventually mind blank to stop anything mind affecting along with divinations. There are a lot of spells like that, and notably, the best tend to be pretty long in duration. It doesn't matter that much if you have relatively few slots (which isn't entirely true) if they go a long way.

At higher levels, and higher levels of optimization, things become significantly more involved, generally using stacked crafted contingent spells, along with celerity, in order to act out of turn. You also use foresight to continue that theme, and when you get really into it, everything becomes astrally projected from a private fast time demi-plane. You can become nearly unkillable if you want, and if something's going to kill you, it's going to be an even more prepared caster.

So, basic answer is "a lot". Wizards have just about the most complicated, diverse, and powerful systems of defenses in the entire game. I haven't even broken the surface with this post, because there's just so much stuff. One thing to keep in mind, however, is the previously mentioned fact that you don't really have that few spells. Even at low levels, with a generalist, you could be running something like a gray elf with elf wizard substitution levels and domain wizard. A first level wizard under those conditions is working with five separate first level slots, and things go much higher from there.

[Svata]

(Greater) Luminous Armor - Like Mage Armor, but more AC, restricted to Good-only. (And its Abjuration, which makes it good with Abjurant Champion levels.)

(Greater) Blink- 50% miss chance, 30% of which should stack with Blur/Displacement/Invisibility

[bjoern]

I'm still somewhat new to the game. Wizards, especially generalist wizards, have a very limited amount of spells per day. Can someone tell me how to defend yourself?

Mage Armor + shield for AC, maybe a spiderskin later
Mirror Image for %miss
Displacement for % miss
Protection from arrows for against arrows
Fly/levitate for immunity to melee attacks


and that's all I got. I considered invisibility but too many creatures have a high listen check.

Twilight mithral chain shirt seems to replace mage armor, but what other enchantments should I give it? Etherealness?

All levels are fine, but I'd like to know both low level defenses and high level defenses.

edit: added some additional stuff other people suggested

I like putting a ghost ward crystal onto that twilight mithril chain shirt. That way the AC and enhancement bonus counts against touch attacks.

[Abd al-Azrad]

Really, your primary line of defense should be simple positioning. As long as your enemies cannot move to a space where they can hit you with a lethal attack, you can eventually win. You almost always have range and more dangerous uses for your Standard actions, so before worrying about layering dozens of spells to make yourself invincible, just focus on filling the 5' squares, breaking charge lines and locating cover between you and your foes.

You know, it's funny... more so at higher levels, but my wizards tend to be more than a little willing to absorb hits if needed. With a supernaturally boosted Constitution, False Life, Mirror Images, miss chance from various sources, flight, tactical teleportation, even mundane boosts to AC from basic spells and shapeshifting, I typically find myself more than protected enough to allow enemies to try their chances at taking me down.

This is, of course, because the best Wizard defense is their phenomenal offense. You don't really need to sit and tank an unending number of hits. You just need to make yourself tough enough to last a few seconds, long enough to get off a few kill shots of your own, or beat a hasty retreat.

This is primarily what I think of when I consider wizard defenses. Buying a few seconds while you eradicate your foes. Pick three or four types of attack that you are particularly worried about - gang-flanked by assassins, charged by a barbarian, grappled by something huge and hungry - and make specific counters to things like those. Layer a few types of decent time-wasting defenses against mundane assaults. DEFINITELY boost your saving throws. And then figure out how to kill people in various and hilarious ways.

[paperarmor]

Don' forget Summon monster X, Contingency, Craft Contingent spell, and various minonmancy tricks.

[Urpriest]

Ironguard is pretty awesome. There are lots of defenses like that: flat out "you are immune to X type of attack". Especially if you can Persist spells for cheap/free, there's a huge range to choose from. Friendly Fire is another great one, protecting you from basically any ranged attack.

[incarnate236]

I used to polymorph my familiar into a treant and ride around on it's back.

[Psyren]

At low levels your best friends are positioning, and spending some portion of your limited spells on proactive defenses (battlefield control), and avoiding combat altogether (illusions and/or enchantments do the best job of this.)

At mid-high levels you get so many spells that devoting a few to maximizing your defense won't even make a dent, thus positioning becomes less important (though it's still an okay idea not to be the first one into a room.

[Coidzor]

Mithril Dastana or (a) Mithril Buckler(s) if one is feeling like being less cheesy for any relevant shield/armor properties one wants, though they wouldn't be a primary source of AC or anything.

Thistledown Padding or Bondleaf Wraps or something similarly 0% ASF as a good base platform for putting on armor properties, unless they can just do so with a pair of bracers of armor or a "Robes of Armor" or what have you.

Meatshields, either minions or party members. Planar Binding, Animate Dead, Construct-making, Dominate Person/Monster, etc.

Battlefield Control spells such as Wall of X or Glitterdust blinding foes or banks of fog so they can't target others properly.

(Greater) Mirror Image is always good, as is (Greater) Invisibility.

Share Spells with a familiar for shapechanging magic into a pair of Hydras or something so that enemies are discouraged from getting close. Polymorph Any Object to turn one's familiar into something nasty with Reach permanently or close enough.

Abrupt Jaunt for immediate action interrupts of enemy attempts to harm the wizard.

[Max Caysey]

I have to say that at lover level, invisibility
and Fly makes it almost impossible or very difficult for anything to get you. At higher levels you are unkillable!

[Ashtagon]

I have to say that at lover level, invisibility
and Fly makes it almost impossible or very difficult for anything to get you. At higher levels you are unkillable!

If you're using fly at higher levels, you need to worry about suffocation.

[atemu1234]

Fly plus Summon Monster can sometimes end... badly, to say the least. Summon other things that can fly, too.

[True believer]

i usually go down this road:

Displacement : 50% miss chance to get hit by a melee/ranged attack or a spell
Conviction and spell shield for a boost in your saves against spells


in 2 rounds ( considering that in one of your rounds u will use celerity) you are ready to join almost any fight

[RoboEmperor]

I can't believe no one mentioned polymorph yet. The right form can speak and has hands or tentacles, so can cast spells. Like ogre magi, who has regen and higher con than you. If regen is not a factor pick the creature with the highest CON or AC.

[sideswipe]

I can't believe no one mentioned polymorph yet. The right form can speak and has hands or tentacles, so can cast spells. Like ogre magi, who has regen and higher con than you. If regen is not a factor pick the creature with the highest CON or AC.

polymorphing and changing your shape has been mentioned.



on top of that if you are talking level 1 generalists in low op,

grease, obscuring mist, silent image, sleep, charm person, hypnotism, colour spray, cause fear,

all of these spells either render a type of thing moot or will win/ avoid the battle in a single round. some require a failed save but at level 1 having more than a 5 in a save is pretty rare, especially as you will be attacking what you assume is their weak save. you would have say 1 or two of these prepared on an adventuring day, just in case, and you will probably go for things with the most utility,

you could always mage armour +shield, at cr1-3 nothing has more that a +5 to hit for the most part, and an ac of 20ish will keep you safe from most thing that get past your save or suck/ BFC

in slightly higher op level 1....

a specialist wizard will have 6 1st level slots, and a elven generalist domain wizard will have 5 and a lot more variety as he hasn't banned 3 schools. also knowing a lot more spells at creation.

unless a wizard is really really lazy, or really meets some bad luck or poor judgement then they wont really have a problem, they will have at least 1-2 spells at low levels with at least a 50% chance of insta win.


as the levels increase, you just need to plan more and be smarter, as the enemies can leave you no room for error. but the spells make it easier to plan and be immortal, even without shennanigans

[Mizr]

Create Undead and Greater Create Undead. Let your minions get in the way of those who would stand against you whilst you level drain your foes into oblivion.

[magicalmagicman]

I'm seeing a lot of suggestions of using minions as meat shields. I thought this was supposed to be avoided because it slows down combat.

How do you guys combat true seeing? They get rid of all your miss chances so you really only have fog spells and your AC for defense.

Blink is absolutely not an option as it gives spell failure.

[sideswipe]

I'm seeing a lot of suggestions of using minions as meat shields. I thought this was supposed to be avoided because it slows down combat.

How do you guys combat true seeing? They get rid of all your miss chances so you really only have fog spells and your AC for defense.

Blink is absolutely not an option as it gives spell failure.

trueseeing = spellcaster usually, so howabout flesh to stone? or a similar ranged save or die, as there fort will suck, or their reflex.

it its a brute then fly, or dominate, or a will save or die spell. you assess your target, and if you have the spell to kill him outright or render him useless prepared you use it. if not you use a combat avoiding spell and come back tomorrow. after being in your rope trick after dim dooring away.

all you have to do is think "whats this guys weakness, do i have it, can i avoid it?" the worst comes to worst you teleport,

[magicalmagicman]

trueseeing = spellcaster usually, so howabout flesh to stone? or a similar ranged save or die, as there fort will suck, or their reflex.

it its a brute then fly, or dominate, or a will save or die spell. you assess your target, and if you have the spell to kill him outright or render him useless prepared you use it. if not you use a combat avoiding spell and come back tomorrow. after being in your rope trick after dim dooring away.

all you have to do is think "whats this guys weakness, do i have it, can i avoid it?" the worst comes to worst you teleport,

Your suggestions are offensive not defensive. "Kill them first before they kill me." While I understand the power of this, this isn't the type of answers I'm looking for.

There are quite a lot of high CR creatures with true seeing, high saves, spellcasting ability, and melee ability I like to take down, so i need to stay alive long enough to try and do something because those creatures would most likely go for the wizard first.

[sideswipe]

Your suggestions are offensive not defensive. "Kill them first before they kill me." While I understand the power of this, this isn't the type of answers I'm looking for.

There are quite a lot of high CR creatures with true seeing, high saves, spellcasting ability, and melee ability I like to take down, so i need to stay alive long enough to try and do something because those creatures would most likely go for the wizard first.

ok, name a creature, it will have a pretty apparent weakness if logic is applied, and wizards are intelligent enough to warrent logic (not metagaming) its not a case of waiting it out, you will run out of spells, if you can do nothing then buff an ally who can.

if you are talking purely defensive then a lot of what i have already said and has been said is still true.

hiding/ miss chance / stupid AC / immunities/ out manoeuvring/ out thinking is the key. i could rattle on about how this spell does this and this spell does that, but they are blatantly obvious what they do. the trick is application. exploit a weakness. in that case a weakness in its offence. anything without fly = fly to avoid. the rest is just using the correct spell to debuff/buff you to what you guess its abilities are.

as for the whole trueseeing thing, what you are asking for is a blanket counter for the perfect counter to a powerful defensive move. that makes no logical sense.
if the creature has true seeing, then dont hide. avoid it with fly, if it can also fly then control it with real things like fog, fog is not negated by true seeing (some are not anyway) if it can trump that the it has specifically been designed to trump any defence you can use so you have a last resort avoid of flee by poofing. if it can stop your teleport then its a creature that was designed for you to death match against it. then all your scrambling for defences will be in vain. at that point your best defence is an offence.

just to clear it up, defences protect you and then exceptions are designed so that they are not i win buttons. that is why its so hard to get around true seeing, its designed that way. entirely. for the point of "your hiding is useless because it is not the answer to everything". thats the sole reason it exists. there is no counter counter except antimagic field and dispel magic. defences are set up and exceptions knock them down. there is no avoiding it. this is why you have layers, and multiple things all at once, and get out of jail free's for when they fail. and then a contingency for when your contingency fails. thats how you protect yourself. some things cannot be protected from, and at that point you kick it in its metaphorical balls AKA weak spot before it can kick you.

do you still have any questions?

[sleepyphoenixx]

BFC is your friend. Instead of trying to defend against anything (which is possible but quite resource intensive), focus on limiting your enemies ability to act.
Get defenses against one-hit kills and save or lose conditions. Death Ward, Mind Blank and Freedom of Movement are the big ones. Flight, immediate action teleports and high saves take care of most of the rest.

[Urpriest]

I'm seeing a lot of suggestions of using minions as meat shields. I thought this was supposed to be avoided because it slows down combat.

Depends on your group, really. Some can handle it pretty smoothly. Plus, just because it's not friendly doesn't mean it's not effective.



How do you guys combat true seeing? They get rid of all your miss chances so you really only have fog spells and your AC for defense.

Blink is absolutely not an option as it gives spell failure.

Greater Blink is a much better choice than Blink, yeah. If you're going to use Blink in combat, do it with spells that don't care what plane you're on.

For foes with True Seeing you've still got immunity-based defenses (Energy Immunity, Ghostform, the Ironguard line, Friendly Fire), as well as aforementioned BFC and the like. They're high level, but so's True Seeing.

[magicalmagicman]

I see.

Low level:
Positioning (includes teleporting)
Stack AC
Fly/levitate
Illusion Miss chances (invisibility, displacement, mirror image, etc.)
HP increases

Mid level+
Greater Blink
Minions as walls
Specific defenses (resist energy, energy immunity, etc.)

in addition to all this, BFC. A fog spell will delay the enemy a round or two, adding minions to make them stay in the fog increases this "safe" duration.

So use the above defenses to tank 1 round if you don't go first, throw a BFC, and win the fight. BFC will protect you too.

[Coidzor]

Now you're starting to think like a GOD (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1570.0) Wizard.

Battlefield Control is Love. Battlefield Control is Life.

[Madhava]

Agree with everyone who'd mentioned mirror image; it is truly a wonderous thing... especially the greater version. There's a mirror image armor enchant available also, to give you more uses per day.

Items are really helpful, depending on what's available to you. Pearls of power & (eternal or regular)wands are relatively cheap, and smart investments at nearly all levels.

Nerveskitter is also your friend at nearly all levels. Raise your defenses, or disable the bad guys, before they can take any action.

And you might find a reserve feat to be helpful during lower levels, toward conserving your limited number of spell slots.

[ericgrau]

Greater mirror image is ok. Mirror image drops immediately to one full attack from pitiful AC. And it eats your first round. In a game where a fight is often decided in 2-3 rounds, with the earlier ones being more critical. Most defenses that eat an action are much worse than offense, just how the game is. Abrupt jaunt is close to broken, but if your gaming group doesn't mind that much power then it is an automatic choice. Hour/level spells like [greater] mage/luminous armor and [empowered] false life can be kept up all day. As you get into higher levels there are the heart of X spells in spell compendium, especially heart of earth.

I likewise wouldn't use shield, displacement, protection from arrows nor fly in a party. Levitate is nice though because you can save others at range. Not as much for yourself unless you follow it up with levitating others who are in danger. A 25 gp scroll of shield or two is nice in case you get multiple buff rounds and run out of other buffs. Otherwise likewise not worth the turn.

For your standard actions many offensive spells are also defensive. Web, sleet storm, solid fog, evard's black tentacles, resilient sphere, wall of force. These will reduce damage to the whole party, often better than the spells that only help you. Agreed on nerveskitter before these or whatever spell you cast. Very strong. Nerveskitter and heart of X spells suffer a little from power creep but if your group doesn't mind some mild optimization they're great.

The thing with blocking summons is that they can't even hit many foes and do pitiful damage. Foes can often go around and eat the attack of opportunity without fear. The casting time is also a pain since when you're ambushed you'd really like that summon round 1 as you might not make it through part of round 2. Their slowness is the opposite of what you want which is immediates and hour/level buffs.

[sideswipe]

if you are going to be a defensive wizard instead of battle field control or "god" it is very possible.

just take war weaver PRC,
instead of 1 displacement all get displacement,
instead of just me fly the whole party gets fly,

though this works wonders for my current god wizard. i'm in a low OP group playing a mid OP character. and i'm not overshadowing anyone in combat (because i am turning everyone into killing machines and de-buffing the enemies so much that it is the party mopping up everyone).
using that tactic we were able to take down a cr 16 vampire encounter (that was pretty optimised) as a level 8 party.

[herrhauptmann]

I'm seeing a lot of suggestions of using minions as meat shields. I thought this was supposed to be avoided because it slows down combat.

How do you guys combat true seeing? They get rid of all your miss chances so you really only have fog spells and your AC for defense.

Blink is absolutely not an option as it gives spell failure.

Technically your spells don't fail, they just activate on a different plane.
Which is where Transdimensional Spell comes into play. Complete Mage (or Arcane).

[Abd al-Azrad]

I don't think "minionmancy slows down combat and should be avoided" is a fair takeaway from the general advice. It certainly CAN do so, but in small doses minions can be quite manageable.

- Pre-roll their attacks, miss chances and damage during the turns before yours
- Prioritize minions of which you know the stats
- Let your fellow players control or roll the minions
- Don't overdo it

The DM manages several creatures at once without slowing down combat too badly, due to prior preparation and delegation of tasks. My general thought is, "be aware that controlling more than one character can slow the game down, if managed poorly."

As a final thought: a good God wizard doesn't actually need to participate much in many fights. During low levels, you want to save your spells, and only invest enough in a given battle to swing things in your party's favour - then shoot crossbows or something. So having a few summons around is a good way to keep involved in the clean-up after you make the battle winnable.

EDIT: How to combat true seeing? Dispel magic, blinding effects, distance. The spell has a limited range, and your medium- and long-range spells exceed it.

[Malroth]

Invisible Spell on Obscuring Mist/fog cloud. True seeing Opponent Is blinded with no save everybody else is fine and dandy.

[Doxkid]

A solid offense is a good defense. An irresistible offense launched early is an amazing defense. A highly paranoid, slightly unreasonable defense is the best defense.

Wizards look at their situation (and the optimization of their gaming table) and pick one of the three.

Casting Hold Monster on the enemy Ogre is a good defense. It is also one of the most reasonable things you can do.

Charming the Ogre and convincing him to fight other ogres is a very good defense. It's a bit more questionable, but doing it every once in a while should be fine.

Stealing the ogre's soul before it even wakes up for the morning is an amazing defense. Most tables dont approve of that kind of thing, but...it works.

Removing the entire Ogre species from existence and then hiding in a sky castle that only exists in temporally paradoxical sub-dimension that even the gods have never heard of which is populated solely with fragments of your own consciousness who have all been mentally/spiritually/physically/emotionally/mechanically/chemically/statistically manipulated to ensure their absolute loyalty is truly absolute...is the best defense against an ogre attack. Don't do that. We joke, but that is basically never necessary and basically never appreciated, save forthreads discussing the best way to do that.

[RedMage125]

If the Twilight Mithril Chain Shirt is okay with your DM, then you can go one better:

Twlight Nimbleness Mithril Breastplate with a Thistledown Lining (Races of the Wild for info on Thistledown).

0 Armor Check Panalty
0% Arcane Spell Failure Chance

Then throw in that Ghost Touch armor gem.

[(Un)Inspired]

Your suggestions are offensive not defensive. "Kill them first before they kill me." While I understand the power of this, this isn't the type of answers I'm looking for.

There are quite a lot of high CR creatures with true seeing, high saves, spellcasting ability, and melee ability I like to take down, so i need to stay alive long enough to try and do something because those creatures would most likely go for the wizard first.

The key against those sorts of creatures is initiative. Wizards can snap to attention faster that anyone else with martial wizards improved initiative, hummingbird familiars, nerve skitter, contingency, and a general SADness that let's then pump dex easily.

There's essentially no reason you should have the first turn in every combat. Use divinations to prevent surprise rounds.

[sideswipe]

The key against those sorts of creatures is initiative. Wizards can snap to attention faster that anyone else with martial wizards improved initiative, hummingbird familiars, nerve skitter, contingency, and a general SADness that let's then pump dex easily.

There's essentially no reason you should have the first turn in every combat. Use divinations to prevent surprise rounds.

this is even better when you are playing my dancing wizard running off dex instead of int with lost tradition.

[Banjoman42]

Don't forget to line up defenses against other spell-casters.

My favorite way to prevent losing to charms/sleep/hold spells is to set up a contingency, triggered by my inability to cast spells, which dispels magic (to get rid of enchantments) or summons a creature to protect me.

To prevent other casters from hurting, antimagic field or dispel magic can be extremely useful. If you have exceptional physical ability scores, don't hesitate to use antimagic field and try to out melee another wizard or sorcerer.

[Barbarian Horde]

Conjuration focus, cut off your foes line of sight.
Feat:
Cloudy Conjuration: The first feat you should take. With the "Adjacent to caster" option you can place it between you and your enemy for full concealment until your next turn. It can also be used as minor battlefield control, and a small debuff. Is activated for free every time you cast a conjuration spell (even a cantrip)
http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1146876 For reference to building a wizard, might help.

Also get something to improve initiative so you can take your turn first and hide.

[Ermac]

Standing behind the fighter(s).
Or by casting Wall of Stone/Iron/Ice/Fire/Force.

[Faily]

A huge fan of the Heart of [element] spells, especially the added bonus of having them all active. Also love that they are 1hour/level duration, so it will last all day, just like your Mage Armor.

Stoneskin is decent too, Fireshield to make enemies reconsider attacking you... and convince your party's Paladin or Cleric to cast Shield Other with you as the target, so you will only take half damage. :smallamused: