Using Diplomacy to erase someone's name.

[Iwasforger03]

So, I've been looking at unusual ways to accomplish something. I've also been looking at ways to gain certain mostly story effect powers through unconventional means, or through mechanics or abilities I already possess, using characters who aren't supposed to have powers of that nature.

I have a paladin with a +40 diplomacy. This is 3.5 campaign converted to Pathfinder. I have 10 levels in the Kensei prestige class. I have a charisma of 18. I am level 18. max ranks in class skill gives me a 21. + 4 charisma, +10 kensai, magic ring +5=+40.

I want to figure out how theoretically high a diplomacy I would need to persuade Existence Itself to forget someone's name. Or at least persuade the ranking Deific figure (the overgod who created creation, etc.) to strip them of their name.

I figure there will be extra story conditions the DM might impose, but, if it were theoretically possible, what kind of diplomacy score would I need to achieve it?

[RedMage125]

If you're referring to Truename of a creature (assuming your DM is using that concept), I don't think Diplomacy itself can do that. I also don't think Diplomacy can affect an ephemeral concept such as Reality Itself.

The only time I've ever heard of "name-erasing" being done was in the Lady Penitent series of novels, and it took Elven High Magic (which, by the RAW is a form of Epic Magic), and was accomplished against a demigod. They used the Epic Spell to remove all knowledge of her name from every creature in existence, for about 5 minutes. Which was enough to kill the demigod in question, because for a moment, she had no worshippers.

[Forrestfire]

There's also a 9th-level spell that removes someone's truename from existence (and them with it).

[Iwasforger03]

Hmmmm We're expecting this campaign to go epic, so while I don't have epic casting myself, my compatriots and I might be able to finnagle something.

Now, what was the name of this spell? Pathfinder or 3.5?

[Troacctid]

Unname, from Tome of Magic. You must correctly speak the creature's truename to cast it. (This requires a truespeaking check with a scaling DC based on the target's HD.)

You certainly cannot use Diplomacy on "existence itself" as the skill only works on creatures.

[Iwasforger03]

Unname, from Tome of Magic. You must correctly speak the creature's truename to cast it. (This requires a truespeaking check with a scaling DC based on the target's HD.)

Thank you! That's exactly what I need!



You certainly cannot use Diplomacy on "existence itself" as the skill only works on creatures.

The DM is a creature. What If I use diplomacy on the DM to convince them I can use diplomacy to get rid of someone's name?

I joke. I see your point, but the DM is final arbitrator, and I might be able to convince him that an outrageously high Diplomacy check could have the same effect. Under the right circumstances.

Such as an epic level telepathy spell that puts me in contact with every living mind on the material plane or beyond, and lets me use diplomacy on all of them (which I will succeed at) to make them indifferent. I can make requests of those who are at least indifferent to me. I then ask them one tiny favor: Forget his names. All of them. Erase them from every book, and every document. Erase them from, well, EVERYTHING.

[Troacctid]

Thank you! That's exactly what I need!
Note that you also need to know their truename, which requires painstaking research as detailed on page 197 of Tome of Magic. You also need to be within a few hundred feet of the target, and they get a saving throw to negate it.

Another option is the Bereft prestige class, which lets you unname dead creatures, deleting their souls from the universe and preventing them from being resurrected (even by wish or miracle). You can do it as much as you like, even if you don't know their truename, but you need to be in touch range of their corpse, and it costs 100 xp.


Such as an epic level telepathy spell that puts me in contact with every living mind on the material plane or beyond, and lets me use diplomacy on all of them (which I will succeed at) to make them indifferent. I can make requests of those who are at least indifferent to me. I then ask them one tiny favor: Forget his names. All of them. Erase them from every book, and every document. Erase them from, well, EVERYTHING.
Wouldn't work. Immunity to mind-affecting is a thing. Protection from [your alignment] also stops you cold. Plus, many books and documents aren't in a position to be erased.

[Iwasforger03]

The significant reduction in the number of people who had heard of him might still cause a major reduction in his power, enough to make it so we CAN fight him in a more normal battle.

Also we have a true neutral wizard played by one of the best power gamers I have ever seen or heard of, and he's even less afraid of, as Uncle puts it, "RESEARCH!" than I am. He would cast the spell, so the spell's alignment should be Neutral, which means alignment protection does squat.

Epic magic can also ignore some immunities and other things. Also, the DM may allow it if he likes the idea, or he may forget about the common ways (as you mentioned immunity to mind affecting) that would block this idea.

I do appreciate you playing opposition, whether because you want to be devil's advocate or you genuine just don't think it should work. You raise good points I need to be aware if I WERE to attempt this, and that will be helpful down the road. Thankyou.

[Ashtagon]

You are to Reality as animals are to you. Just as you need a seaprate skill to do Diplomacy to an animal (Handle Animal), you need a separate skill to talk to Reality (Truespeak). Basically, Diplomacy can't do this.

[Heliomance]

As a ballpark comparison, one time I hit a DC 100 Perform (oratory) check, and the DM decided that my story was so good that reality itself was impressed and decided to shift so that the story was true.

[Marigu.goke00]

Okay. First off, this seems asinine. I love it.

Secondly, as has been mentioned, you cannot really convince a concept of something. Now, that being said, we are in a fantasy world. If that concept has an anthropomorphic manifestation, go for it.

Thirdly, you will succeed the diplomacy as RAW. I feel like The Universe would get some kind of bonus. Diplomacy should honestly be RAI at all times, in my opinion.

Fourth...ly? How would you convince it to forget about something. When you diplomance a guard into "forgetting" you were there, you are having him look the other way, not truly forget about you. If I tell you to forget about elephants, you will think about elephants. If you tell the universe to forget about XYZ, it will think about XYZ.

That is all. Carry on.

[Brookshw]

Outside of the truenamer crunch discussion their is Canon support in 2e for this being possible (Orcus) though it took a god to pull it off.

[Milodiah]

Outside of the truenamer crunch discussion their is Canon support in 2e for this being possible (Orcus) though it took a god to pull it off.

All things are possible through ORCUS!

If you wanted to be lame and anticlimactic about it, you can always just go and Diplomance some level-20 caster into waiving the fee for what should be an economy-breaker of a 9th-level NPC-cast spell.

[Extra Anchovies]

The DM is a creature.

That's as may be, but pointing it out to them will have some serious negative repercussions on your character :smalltongue:

PC: "You're a monster! And that's why I'm using Diplomacy on you!"
DM: "Rocks fall, your character dies. Get out of my house."

[Iwasforger03]

It helps that I'm usually his driver. Yes, this is utterly insane and while I'd love to do it with diplomacy, i'll use Truenaming if I have to. Mayhaps I can convince the DM to flavor it as diplomacy checks.

[Vaz]

The DM is not a creature.

The person themself may well be a monster, creature, troll, cretin, greater pockmarked outsider from the plane of the unwashed, but the DM is a metagame construct that is not in the game world.

The DM is the necessary architect who fulfils the random chance and sequence of events that lead to The Dragonborn being saved from the Imperials at Helgen Keep by Alduin, or Horus being converted to Chaos as a result of the events of Davin orchestrated in universe by Lorgar, Erebus and Kor Phaeron. Despite being 'not-pen and paper' or 'd&d' there is still someone making the decisions in the absence of an actual Intelligence.

In the event of an AI, there is still someone who has written the script for something to happen potentially, although 'in universe' a dragon attack on the road to Markarth has happened because the dragon, despite being zoned in happened, existed as a being before that event and made a decision to atttack you, rather than some dude sat in an air conditioned office writing collections of 1's and 0's 3 years before the event even theoretically happened because all the 1's and 0's are in the correct formation.

When playing that game, you cannot ask that coding person to change those 1's and 0's just use your own 1's and 0's to let you play on. But you are addressing the in game 1's and 0's, not the creator of those.

You are addressing a DM's screen, effectively.

[Extra Anchovies]

It helps that I'm usually his driver.

Wow, you are very dedicated to this idea :smalleek:

[Iwasforger03]

Wow, you are very dedicated to this idea :smalleek:


*dies laughing* Yes, but I fully believe it won't work, so I'm researching the True name stuff as a means to ultimately do what I want.

What I really want is to take his name. The diplomacy was something that amuses me to no end, since I have the ridiculously high mod to it.