What's the point of Divine Sense?

[odigity]

I can't find a reason to use it once a day, let alone four. (I'm a level 3 Paladin with Cha 16.)

The fact that total cover prevents detection makes it nearly useless in common situations. If you can already see the damn thing, you don't need Divine Sense. If it could sense through doors and walls in a 60' radius, then it would actually be useful.

[Durazno]

What if they're hiding in the brush or among the corpses on a battlefield? What if they've been made invisible or hidden in a pall of magical darkness? It's cover that stops it, not concealment.

[some guy]

There are also fiends, celestials and undead with disguise self, alter self, shapechanger or other abilities to appear as things other than themselves.

[Inevitability]

I am playing in a PbP game with a paladin, and my RL gaming group has one too.

The PbP paladin used it once, to confirm that there was a certain incorporeal undead lurking in the room. I can't remember the paladin in my game having ever used it.

[Edge of Dreams]

In addition to what others have said, it could be useful for telling the difference between a magical beast and a fiend, for example, especially if you have other abilities (Channel Divinity, certain spells) that work specifically on fiends and/or undead.

[Kyutaru]

The only point of Divine Sense is as a precheck for smites.

QUERY: Target == Demon/Undead?
- If yes, apply Smite

[odigity]

Yes, like with any ability there are rare cases where it is useful. Obviously.

But you KNOW what I'm saying. It's the only thing you get at first level besides the first 5hp of Lay on Hands, and you get a whole bunch of uses, but it's rarely useful (compared to Expertise/Sneak Attack, or Martial Arts, or SPELL SLOTS, or most things people get at first level).

Let's be honest. It way sucks compared to what it should be.

[some guy]

Well, in older editions Detect Evil was useful for Smite Evil, but not much more. Smite in 5th doesn't need the target to be evil, so that's no longer a concern. And if you know you're looking for imps or vampires masquerading as humans it's useful. Yes, it's rarely useful, but I don't think it should be really more than that.
Now, the ranger's Primeval Awareness, that's even more garbage than Divine Sense and gets worse when the ranger is in it's favored terrain.

[Knaight]

I can't find a reason to use it once a day, let alone four. (I'm a level 3 Paladin with Cha 16.)

The fact that total cover prevents detection makes it nearly useless in common situations. If you can already see the damn thing, you don't need Divine Sense. If it could sense through doors and walls in a 60' radius, then it would actually be useful.

What are the environments of the game? It seems like something that would be much, much more useful in a game that featured more outdoor environments and cities. People trying to escape through crowds, people trying to sneak around in the open, so on and so forth prevent useful opportunities. Dungeons seem like an area that is comparatively less useful.

[odigity]

What are the environments of the game? It seems like something that would be much, much more useful in a game that featured more outdoor environments and cities. People trying to escape through crowds, people trying to sneak around in the open, so on and so forth prevent useful opportunities. Dungeons seem like an area that is comparatively less useful.

Sure, it's more useful in a city. A Paladin can amuse himself by grabbing a table at a nice outdoor cafe and playing "spot the fiend" with his date. Maybe occasionally actually usefuil for something relevant to the game, even.

But where's the combat/pre-combat use? Where's the argument for how this will be useful more than 5% of the days this char is alive, which most of his other abilities are?

[Kyutaru]

What are the environments of the game? It seems like something that would be much, much more useful in a game that featured more outdoor environments and cities. People trying to escape through crowds, people trying to sneak around in the open, so on and so forth prevent useful opportunities. Dungeons seem like an area that is comparatively less useful.

Oh yes, Undead LOVE to hang out in taverns. Not in dank, dark crypts. This is a fact.

[RedMage125]

Oh yes, Undead LOVE to hang out in taverns. Not in dank, dark crypts. This is a fact.

That's not the point. The point is that evil can be anywhere, and paladins DO frequently end up in taverns.

Also, vampires. Vampires are undead and frequently pass as human, and could be anywhere in a town, including a tavern.

[Spriteless]

The point is to make undead scared because their might be a mortal around using the abiltiy right now. Boo!

[ad_hoc]

But where's the combat/pre-combat use? Where's the argument for how this will be useful more than 5% of the days this char is alive, which most of his other abilities are?

Only 1/3 of the game is combat.

I think it's nice to have some class abilities that apply to other parts of the game.

[odigity]

Only 1/3 of the game is combat.

I think it's nice to have some class abilities that apply to other parts of the game.

Never said it's not. I like skills. But I can come up with a use for Persuasion or Intimidation or Stealth or many ritual spells almost every day. I can't do the same for Divine Sense.

[odigity]

Here's my point: Divine Sense should not be limited by total cover. That would fix the problem. You can limit it just like the Wand of Enemy Detection (which has the same range without the total cover limit), which gives you direction but not distance. You just know there's a fiend that way within 60'. That makes it worth having. Otherwise, it doesn't compare to Expertise, or Sneak Attack, or a Fighting Style, or Second Wind...

[Gwendol]

Well, in older editions Detect Evil was useful for Smite Evil, but not much more. Smite in 5th doesn't need the target to be evil, so that's no longer a concern. And if you know you're looking for imps or vampires masquerading as humans it's useful. Yes, it's rarely useful, but I don't think it should be really more than that.
Now, the ranger's Primeval Awareness, that's even more garbage than Divine Sense and gets worse when the ranger is in it's favored terrain.

No, that's just not true. Detect evil in my games was most commonly used as "evildar", in a similar way as detect magic. Used to ping invisible enemies, or as close range divination.

[some guy]

No, that's just not true. Detect evil in my games was most commonly used as "evildar", in a similar way as detect magic. Used to ping invisible enemies, or as close range divination.

Yeah, you're right. I made the mistake of looking at it from my own dm-ways (which is to say, there are other ways to detect invisible creatures and knowing if something's evil doesn't say anything about it's hostility).

[Gwendol]

Yeah, you're right. I made the mistake of looking at it from my own dm-ways (which is to say, there are other ways to detect invisible creatures and knowing if something's evil doesn't say anything about it's hostility).

Very true, but for the paladin, this was nice ability that never lost usefulness.

[silveralen]

I've used it once, and honestly that had more to do with me forgetting the full cover restriction in the first place.

So far, I've had a single encounter where it even could have been useful, and no real way to know I should've used it.

If it was always on? Useful. If it penetrated cover? Useful. If it actually detected evil, threats to my party, or enemies, rather than a subset of creature types? Useful.

As is? Pretty forgettable, and I'm rather glad I didn't play my paladin at lvl 1, it's weird how weak he is at that level compared to a fighter, though smites and oath features catch up quickly.

[ad_hoc]

Here's my point: Divine Sense should not be limited by total cover. That would fix the problem. You can limit it just like the Wand of Enemy Detection (which has the same range without the total cover limit), which gives you direction but not distance. You just know there's a fiend that way within 60'. That makes it worth having. Otherwise, it doesn't compare to Expertise, or Sneak Attack, or a Fighting Style, or Second Wind...

I suppose the question then is whether it is supposed to be as powerful as those abilities. Thieves' Cant is pretty bad too in this light.

The thing I don't like about Divine Sense is that it has its own currency to keep track of.

I think it's great for intrigue encounters. I can see why it wouldn't get much use if those aren't in your game at all. Deception is a big part of what fiends do.

Just as a ranger isn't going to be as fun if a game takes place entirely within a city, a paladin won't be as fun if there are no outsiders or undead in the game.

[odigity]

I've used it once, and honestly that had more to do with me forgetting the full cover restriction in the first place.

So far, I've had a single encounter where it even could have been useful, and no real way to know I should've used it.

If it was always on? Useful. If it penetrated cover? Useful. If it actually detected evil, threats to my party, or enemies, rather than a subset of creature types? Useful.

As is? Pretty forgettable...

THANK YOU! That's all I wanted, for someone to confirm what I'm seeing. What you said is exactly right.


...and I'm rather glad I didn't play my paladin at lvl 1, it's weird how weak he is at that level compared to a fighter, though smites and oath features catch up quickly.

For sure, Paladin 2 rocks the casbah. I, too, got to skip level 1 (started at 2), which I did not mind at all. (Usually I prefer to start at level 1, but screw Paladin 1.)


I suppose the question then is whether it is supposed to be as powerful as those abilities. Thieves' Cant is pretty bad too in this light.

You get Thieve's Cant *in addition to* Expertise and Sneak Attack, which are both awesome. Whereas you get Divine Sense in addition to 5pts of Lay on Hands, which is nice, but hardly comparable.


The thing I don't like about Divine Sense is that it has its own currency to keep track of.

Agreed. I hated having to look up the rule for calculating uses every time I level up to see if I need to adjust it because I can't remember the formula, for an ability I don't actually care about. (I finally did memorize it: 1 + Cha)

[Knaight]

Oh yes, Undead LOVE to hang out in taverns. Not in dank, dark crypts. This is a fact.

The entire point of a lot of vampires is blending in. There are a handful of demons which are also about corrupting things and not just violence, which also benefit from blending in. So on and so forth.

[ad_hoc]

You get Thieve's Cant *in addition to* Expertise and Sneak Attack, which are both awesome. Whereas you get Divine Sense in addition to 5pts of Lay on Hands, which is nice, but hardly comparable.

Oh I see.

I think it is a little much to expect every class to be balanced at each individual level and have them do unique things.

I'm okay with classes being generally balanced overall.

Take the level 1 Sorcerer for a class that gets a ton at 1st level. I'm okay with this, especially at the first 2 levels. They go by much quicker than other levels.

[odigity]

I think it is a little much to expect every class to be balanced at each individual level and have them do unique things.

Across 20 levels, sure. But I'm talking about level 1. I'd say that's the most important one to get balanced.

Really, Paladin and Ranger should get their Fighting Style at level 1. I assume they put it at level 2 to not make it too easy to grab two fighting styles with two levels of dipping, but the result is that Paladin 1 just plain sucks, so your first play session of the campaign is going to be frustrating. (Ranger has even bigger problems.)

[ChristofRomuald]

I have used divine sense 3 times a day, every day in the campaign I'm in over the course of four levels (starting from level to 4).

I have detected 0 things. The one time I thought I could detect something, it turns out I couldn't.

It sucks.

[odigity]

I have used divine sense 3 times a day, every day in the campaign I'm in over the course of four levels (starting from level to 4).

I have detected 0 things. The one time I thought I could detect something, it turns out I couldn't.

It sucks.

Preach it, brother.

[Socko525]

I tried to use it once in the ongoing campaign I'm in...I found later when i used it the creature was fey...so i detected nothing.

I started my campaign at level 1, and i can vouch for what a lot of others are saying, level 1 Paladin sucks in comparison to a lot of other classes. Lay on Hands is great sure, but I did feel underpowered compared to the cleric, fighter, sorcerer, and wizard at level 1.

[MadGrady]

My paladin actually used it three times in a day during our last game.

We were playing the Encounter (or Expedition, I can't remember which)

Secrets of Sokol Keep


We had heard rumors that the keep was haunted, and that the nobleman who ran the lighthouse was missing. So we go into the nobleman's room to do some investigation, and I use it as a means of confirming that no spirits were in the room. We then go up into the lighthouse where the beacon had been turned off, and determine that something is keeping it from staying lit. I use it again, and this time detect the presence of a ghost - but since I neither heard a ringing song, or smelt something bad, determined that it was not evil (and not good either - so neutral). Using this information, we were able to follow it's prompts down into the crypt, where we came upon a flooded room in which a evil idol was placed. Paladin used ability for a third time to detect spirits here - only to find a band of undead baddies waiting for us.


Needless to say, I actually found it quite useful to have this ability, and it allowed us to detect the undead ambush and, instead, instigate our own surprise round.

[odigity]

My paladin actually used it three times in a day during our last game.
...snip...

So, you specifically used it to find undead within 60' that were invisible but not behind total cover in an area you had specific reason to expect them to be already.

Are you claiming this is a normal situation to expect every day?

[Durazno]

If you're in a campaign where you expect to fight a lot of undead? It's probably pretty common.

Likewise if you're playing an intrigue campaign in a kingdom that's under attack by demons. Or picking your way through ancient, skeleton-strewn ruins. Or hunting vampires in the city. Or you suspect that your quest-giver is an Outsider. Or you encounter a bone golem and suspect (but don't know) its nature.

It's situational, but there are a lot of situations you could use it for, particularly in dark fantasy settings. It's also a tool for the DM to reveal information to you, if it comes to that. But if you're going into a cavern full of goblins, then, yeah, I guess you'll have to be content with your plate armor and lay on hands. I don't think every single ability of every class should have to be useful in every kind of campaign.

[silveralen]

The thing is, you need hints and clues to even know to try the ability, making it basically a case of the DM just handing you the information. He just hands you a little less than he might normally so you can "find out" the rest yourself, using the ability. It isn't a real ability, it is a tool for the DM giving you information he already planned to give you. Which makes it pointless.

[Durazno]

In most of the situations I described, thinking to use it at the right time would, at the very least, let you avoid ambush.

[ad_hoc]

The thing is, you need hints and clues to even know to try the ability, making it basically a case of the DM just handing you the information. He just hands you a little less than he might normally so you can "find out" the rest yourself, using the ability. It isn't a real ability, it is a tool for the DM giving you information he already planned to give you. Which makes it pointless.

It is the difference between being duped by the important NPC or not.

Just use it whenever you meet someone new who is important.

Having Divine Sense could make a huge difference to an adventure right from the start.

Don't forget about being able to detect places and objects. You find those even if they are behind total cover. Makes it simple to find the evil MacGuffin as long as it is within 60ft of you or the evil lair. Or even the holy MacGuffin for that matter that you need to fight the evil whatever.

A lack of a positive hit is still information as well.

It is a narrow ability, but it can still be useful. It's just one of those things where it's either not useful at all in a situation or it is very useful.

[Totema]

Yeah, I guess it looks kinda bad when rogues get expertise and sneak attack. But what else do paladins get that rogues don't? A d10 hit die and proficiency with every weapon and armor type, that's what. At low levels, expertise and sneak attack are pretty much all rogues have going for them anyway (and there's not even that many ways to turn on sneak attack by that point) so as far as I'm concern it evens out.

Besides, the ability itself isn't even really all that bad IMO. It's free uses of (partial) detect good and evil, given at a level when you aren't even able to cast proper spells yet, alongside a decent melee chassis, and it even directly supports your divine smites, which you get at the very next level. Plus, as ad_hoc said, pinging nothing with the ability is useful as well. Did you just meet a suspicious NPC that might be a vampire or fiend in disguise? Divine sense will let you know, without having to waste a spell slot, whether or not they're legit.

[Durazno]

Unless they're fey or just evil humanoids, of course. Nevertheless, it gives you a shorter list to worry about.

[silveralen]

In most of the situations I described, thinking to use it at the right time would, at the very least, let you avoid ambush.

"I use divine sense"

"Everyone roll initiative, surprise round"

"But I detected them!"

"Yep, that was your action during the surprise round, you have a move left, plus your bonus action".

"But what about everyone else?"

"They didn't detect them."

It's like a perception check, except uses an action (which rely implies that the above should happen, as there isn't much reason to use it in an ongoing combat), is restricted by cover perception checks aren't limited by sight), and only useful a few times a day. In short, worthless.


It is the difference between being duped by the important NPC or not.

Just use it whenever you meet someone new who is important.

Having Divine Sense could make a huge difference to an adventure right from the start.

Don't forget about being able to detect places and objects. You find those even if they are behind total cover. Makes it simple to find the evil MacGuffin as long as it is within 60ft of you or the evil lair. Or even the holy MacGuffin for that matter that you need to fight the evil whatever.

A lack of a positive hit is still information as well.

It is a narrow ability, but it can still be useful. It's just one of those things where it's either not useful at all in a situation or it is very useful.

Oh yes, because the demon who can shapeshift into another form isn't going to bother backing it up with Nystrul's magic aura, truly he must have been the most of devious of foes.

Unless he is using disguise self as innate magic, in which case cool, my group didn't have to make skill checks. Though the DM could still give him additional spell casting levels, given that disguise self doesn't even seem to help half the monsters who have it (the heck is a barlgura going to disguise itself as? An actual giant ape?).

As for places, it literally only applies to the hallow spells according to the book, so far as I can tell. Would be nice if it did what you said though.


Unless they're fey or just evil humanoids, of course. Nevertheless, it gives you a shorter list to worry about.

Or a magic user of any skill. Or a variant version of a monster with a different innate spell list. Or they have a magic item. Or just a servant of the vampire/fiend.

Or really any situation that is at all likely to ever occur in a normal game, unless your DM specifically sets up the encounter for you to feel like your ability was useful.

[ad_hoc]

As for places, it literally only applies to the hallow spells according to the book, so far as I can tell. Would be nice if it did what you said though.


"Within the same radius, you also detect the presence of any place or object that has been consecrated or desecrated, as with the hallow spell."

It's a little confusing, I wish it said 'such as' not 'as with.' Still, 'as with' is not exclusionary. It could say that it "...has been consecrated or desecrated by the hallow spell" but it doesn't. Or even just drop the 'as' and say 'with the hallow spell.'

Hallow also affects an area, not an object, so why include the detection of objects when Hallow doesn't target them?

I think the intent is to use Hallow as an example of a consecrated or desecrated area.

There are issues with the ability.

I don't see why it had to be worse than Detect Evil and Good. That's essentially what it is. I think an easy house rule would be to just let it work that way.

Another note about the Hallow spell is that Detect Evil and Good does not mention it. Instead it says it must be magically consecrated or desecrated.

It feels like the ability and the spell started off the same and one was changed while the other wasn't.

[silveralen]

It's a little confusing, I wish it said 'such as' not 'as with.' Still, 'as with' is not exclusionary. It could say that it "...has been consecrated or desecrated by the hallow spell" but it doesn't. Or even just drop the 'as' and say 'with the hallow spell.'

I think the intent is to use Hallow as an example of a consecrated or desecrated area.

I don't see why it had to be worse than Detect Evil and Good. That's essentially what it is. I think an easy house rule would be to just let it work that way.

Could be, seems odd wording either way. Looking back at the section, I think I missed the "as" bit and dropped it in my head.

That's probably the simplest solution, gives the ability a bit more teeth.

[odigity]

Just use it whenever you meet someone new who is important.

Best suggestion I've seen so far. :)


Yeah, I guess it looks kinda bad when rogues get expertise and sneak attack. But what else do paladins get that rogues don't? A d10 hit die and proficiency with every weapon and armor type, that's what.

Fine, so compare it to a class that also gets d10 and all weapon/armor proficiencies. You know, like Fighter? What does Fighter get at 1st level? Only a FIGHTING STYLE and SECOND WIND, which both rock. The Fighting Style is better than the Second Wind, which is better than Lay on Hands (at 1st lvl), which is better (along with every other ability in the game) than Divine Sense. Either of the Fighter's 1st lvl abilities are better than both of the Paladin's 1st lvl abilities combined.

(Unless you really like whores. Paladins can cure disease at level 1.)

[Knaight]

The thing is, you need hints and clues to even know to try the ability, making it basically a case of the DM just handing you the information. He just hands you a little less than he might normally so you can "find out" the rest yourself, using the ability. It isn't a real ability, it is a tool for the DM giving you information he already planned to give you. Which makes it pointless.

This only follows if you're assuming that the DM is pushing a pre-existing plot, and that the prior knowledge was there entirely because of the DM. If the DM is running the game in another fashion, and the foes are there for some other reason, and the PC's have picked up some intel somehow, then it can be useful. The ability is still really niche, but I wouldn't consider what you've highlighted a flaw.

What I would consider a flaw is that it is niche in too many ways at the same time. It's limited to undead/demons; while simultaneously limited to hidden/invisible foes within line of sight, within 60 feet. Either of those alone is pretty restrictive, both is just punitive.

[Inevitability]

The evil DM part of me has always wanted to cast Animate Objects on some skulls, send them at the party, and watch the cleric blow all his Turning attempts at the skulls while getting increasingly 'OH GODS WHY ISN'T THIS WORKING'. I guess Divine Sense would work against that?

[Durazno]

Similar deal with Bone Golems, though wasting the turning attempt would probably tell them what they need to know in the first place.

Now, it'd work if they were watching from a hidden position and the players were metagaming. "Flying skulls? That doesn't sound like anything in the Monster Manual. Pally, take a look."

[odigity]

What I would consider a flaw is that it is niche in too many ways at the same time. It's limited to undead/demons; while simultaneously limited to hidden/invisible foes within line of sight, within 60 feet. Either of those alone is pretty restrictive, both is just punitive.

That's it exactly, I believe. So, would you say it makes sense to remove the "total cover" restriction?

[Inevitability]

Now, it'd work if they were watching from a hidden position and the players were metagaming. "Flying skulls? That doesn't sound like anything in the Monster Manual. Pally, take a look."

Flameskulls, maybe? And Demiliches, although when you encounter 7+ of those in a dungeon room you should realize something is wrong.

[Xetheral]

Flameskulls, maybe? And Demiliches, although when you encounter 7+ of those in a dungeon room you should realize something is wrong.

7 demiliches? What is it, a convention? Yeah, that's a roll to disbelieve... I'd also assume they're illusions even if I fail the roll to disbelieve, because if they ARE real it won't make any difference at all.

[Inevitability]

7 demiliches? What is it, a convention?

Sure! A bit of talking about what souls are tastiest to devour, a bit of showing plans for new deathtraps, and a bit of listening to Acererak boasting about how he got another adventurer to jump into his Sphere of Annihilation. :smallwink:

[Knaight]

That's it exactly, I believe. So, would you say it makes sense to remove the "total cover" restriction?

That sounds reasonable to me. Maybe the range could be kicked up a bit while at it. Alternately, those could be left in, and the creature types detected could be drastically extended - everything but humanoid and monstrous humanoid (and maybe giant) would do.

[Talderas]

The point of divine sense is to make rangers feel terrible over primeval awareness.

[Fwiffo86]

The point of divine sense is to make rangers feel terrible over primeval awareness.

Divine sense is what 60'?

Primeval Awareness is at least 1 mile, much more for favored terrain.

The use of a spell slot to cover such a large area that the ranger is easily going to be able to track down is perfectly balanced if you ask me.

How long would it take a paladin to scan a square mile in 60' spheres?

[Justin Sane]

Primeval Awareness is at least 1 mile, much more for favored terrain.
The use of a spell slot to cover such a large area that the ranger is easily going to be able to track down is perfectly balanced if you ask me.Primeval Awareness is *awful* for tracking. Yes, you know there's one (or more) dragon(s) *somewhere* within a mile (or six). That's all it tells you.
How long would it take a paladin to scan a square mile in 60' spheres?Considering Divine Sense lasts one turn, I'd say you'll run out of uses :smalltongue:

[Jeraa]

Divine sense is what 60'?

Primeval Awareness is at least 1 mile, much more for favored terrain.

The use of a spell slot to cover such a large area that the ranger is easily going to be able to track down is perfectly balanced if you ask me.

How long would it take a paladin to scan a square mile in 60' spheres?

1 square mile is 27,878,400 square feet. 1 use of Divine sense covers 11,310 square feet. That is a minimum of 2,465 uses. Actual number of uses will be higher, as the calculations assume no overlapped areas.

Assuming the paladins charisma is maxed at 20, he has 6 uses per day. It would take him a minimum of 411 days.

[Talderas]

Divine sense is what 60'?

Primeval Awareness is at least 1 mile, much more for favored terrain.

The use of a spell slot to cover such a large area that the ranger is easily going to be able to track down is perfectly balanced if you ask me.

How long would it take a paladin to scan a square mile in 60' spheres?

You get a binary response from primeval awareness that only tells you if one or more of the creature type is within one mile, six miles if it's favored terrain. It gives you no indication of quantity, location, or even if it's the creature you're attempting to track. If you've been tracking a creature you already have some evidence by which to follow it so at best if you're attempting to track a creature with no trail to follow it would tell you that you might find evidence for tracking a creature of the target's type somewhere in a one or six mile radius. Primeval awareness is essentially prone to providing false positives at a high rate.

[AstralFire]

The evil DM part of me has always wanted to cast Animate Objects on some skulls, send them at the party, and watch the cleric blow all his Turning attempts at the skulls while getting increasingly 'OH GODS WHY ISN'T THIS WORKING'. I guess Divine Sense would work against that?

This is awesome. I should do this at some point when it doesn't matter at all.

[Xetheral]

Sure! A bit of talking about what souls are tastiest to devour, a bit of showing plans for new deathtraps, and a bit of listening to Acererakthose vting about how he got another adventurer to jump into his Sphere of Annihilation. :smallwink:

I'm imagining it, and having a hard time figuring out where they stick their convention badge/name tags... on their forehead maybe? Or maybe on their fez?

I also am imagining encountering convention registration booths in the middle of the dungeon, and some very scared-looking temp staff from the local village....

[odigity]

Primeval Awareness is at least 1 mile, much more for favored terrain.

The use of a spell slot to cover such a large area that the ranger is easily going to be able to track down is perfectly balanced if you ask me.

Wow. I've ignored Ranger till now, so I hadn't looked at Primeval Awareness. It's almost as bad as Divine Sense in different ways. How horrid.

I mean, if it was an hour instead of one minute, *maybe* I could work with it. Steal a page from Computer Sciene and build a binary search on top of it:

Ranger: "Primeval Sense."
DM: "Your prey is within one mile."
Ranger: "I travel a 1/2 mile north and try again."
DM: "Your prey is no longer within one mile."
Ranger: "So, we've narrowed it down to the southern half of the circle. I then travel 1/2 mile east and 1/2 mile south."
DM: "Your prey is within one mile."
Ranger" "So we've narrowed it down to the south-east quarter of the original circle."

(and so on, assuming the target isn't moving, and you don't mind wasting three spell slots to narrow it to 1/4 of 3.14 sq miles)

These abilities are terrible.

[AstralFire]

My Primeval Awareness houserule:
This does not require expending a spell slot. If you expend a spell slot, you learn one of the following facts per level of the expended slot: rough number of creatures; whether their median challenge rating is higher, lower, or roughly equal to your level; approximate direction of the creatures; approximate distance of the creatures; and/or one arbitrary fact about them as determined by the GM.

[Justin Sane]

We just let the Ranger know approximate distance and direction.

[Fwiffo86]

Wow. I've ignored Ranger till now, so I hadn't looked at Primeval Awareness. It's almost as bad as Divine Sense in different ways. How horrid.

I mean, if it was an hour instead of one minute, *maybe* I could work with it. Steal a page from Computer Sciene and build a binary search on top of it:

Ranger: "Primeval Sense."
DM: "Your prey is within one mile."
Ranger: "I travel a 1/2 mile north and try again."
DM: "Your prey is no longer within one mile."
Ranger: "So, we've narrowed it down to the southern half of the circle. I then travel 1/2 mile east and 1/2 mile south."
DM: "Your prey is within one mile."
Ranger" "So we've narrowed it down to the south-east quarter of the original circle."

(and so on, assuming the target isn't moving, and you don't mind wasting three spell slots to narrow it to 1/4 of 3.14 sq miles)

These abilities are terrible.

*snickers*

I see I should have explained myself better. Activating Primeval Awareness gives you a workable range. Are the creatures there? Yes/No. If yes, the ranger should use their own tracking skills (which with high bonus and advantage) should ensure they locate the creatures in just a couple of minutes (especially if within 1 mile)

Any tool spending multiple spell slots to triangulate a position shouldn't be playing a ranger. They obviously are unaware of what the ranger is actually capable of.

[odigity]

Any tool spending multiple spell slots to triangulate a position...

I believe you just called me a tool.


*snickers*

Yeah, ok. That fits.


If yes, the ranger should use their own tracking skills (which with high bonus and advantage) should ensure they locate the creatures in just a couple of minutes (especially if within 1 mile)

Tracking is for tracks. First you have to find tracks. Are you suggesting that Survival will let you magically know which of the 360 degrees to head toward and how far to find the tracks to track?

[pwykersotz]

Tracking is for tracks. First you have to find tracks. Are you suggesting that Survival will let you magically know which of the 360 degrees to head toward and how far to find the tracks to track?

Yes. Looking for things like certain plants being absent or present, deer trails, what areas birds habitate/avoid, likely water sources...all these things and many more help you narrow down your search. If the quarry is being particularly tricky or misdirecting you, then your DC increases appropriately.

[odigity]

Yes. Looking for things like certain plants being absent or present, deer trails, what areas birds habitate/avoid, likely water sources...all these things and many more help you narrow down your search. If the quarry is being particularly tricky or misdirecting you, then your DC increases appropriately.

It could help a little, but is hardly reliable.

A creature doesn't effect a large area around it. If I'm walking in a straight line through a forest, you need to intersect my line to have any chance of finding my tracks. If you never get within at least a few hundred feet, you'll never find them, even by watching startled birds flying away or whatever. Survival isn't magical. It's hard work and involves lots of luck to find tracks to track if you haven't already picked up a trail (like starting at a location where the prey recently left).

[Talderas]

They obviously are unaware of what the ranger is actually capable of.

One of the lowest DPRs? A potentially poor spell list because they get the bard/sorcerer treatment for spells known instead of the cleric/druid/paladin? Plateauing at level 5 until they get level 17? Generating false positives like mad?

[Fwiffo86]

It could help a little, but is hardly reliable.

A creature doesn't effect a large area around it. If I'm walking in a straight line through a forest, you need to intersect my line to have any chance of finding my tracks. If you never get within at least a few hundred feet, you'll never find them, even by watching startled birds flying away or whatever. Survival isn't magical. It's hard work and involves lots of luck to find tracks to track if you haven't already picked up a trail (like starting at a location where the prey recently left).

The ranger does not have to intersect your line, only run into something that did. And I don't find it too difficult a stretch for the rangers tracking skills to pick up extremely subtle things of this nature when we are dealing with a world that has magic, dragons, and things from between.

Since the PA applies to the same creatures that DE does, I would easily conclude that those creatures leave more of a mark on the terrain than a simple bent plant. Sulfurous smells coming from upwind, char marks, terrified birds, plants decayed or changed in some weird way, like sprouting eyes, etc. These creatures are not native to the plane, much less the terrain. They are not necessarily bound to the same limitations, and leave their own distinct signs to track.

Undead on the otherhand... well I can't imagine a shambling corpse being too hard to locate. It doesn't attempt to counter-track. And it doesn't care what it runs into or spooks.

[pwykersotz]

It could help a little, but is hardly reliable.

A creature doesn't effect a large area around it. If I'm walking in a straight line through a forest, you need to intersect my line to have any chance of finding my tracks. If you never get within at least a few hundred feet, you'll never find them, even by watching startled birds flying away or whatever. Survival isn't magical. It's hard work and involves lots of luck to find tracks to track if you haven't already picked up a trail (like starting at a location where the prey recently left).

I guess it just depends on the table then.

[silveralen]

I guess it just depends on the table then.

5e's catch phrase "It really depends on the table."

[pwykersotz]

5e's catch phrase "It really depends on the table."

Yeah, it's also this forum's catchphrase since sometimes going into detail will ignite epic flamewars and cross-thread arguments that may include (but are not limited to): Simulacrum cheese, Martial/Caster use, Enfrogenation, and comparisons to 3.5 and 4e.

Since my detailed response would have just rehashed some info in another (very) active thread, I figure it's probably not productive.

[MaxWilson]

I have used divine sense 3 times a day, every day in the campaign I'm in over the course of four levels (starting from level to 4).

I have detected 0 things. The one time I thought I could detect something, it turns out I couldn't.

Negative results are valuable too. If you've got divine sense, you should use it every single time you meet someone new. It won't detect Intellect Devour-infested NPCs sadly, but at least it detects Rakshasas.

[Mandragola]

I like to consider the following scenario:

You are a level 1 paladin. You walk into an empty room in a dungeon, maybe decorated with arcane sigils, tombs or whatever. You get suspicious and let off divine sense. PING! Yes, there is actually an invisible demon or undead somewhere in the room. You then run away, because obviously you can't fight invisible fiends and undead at level one.

I'm building a paladin myself for an adventure starting next week, and it's true to say level one isn't that amazing. Level two is awesome though. I suppose I'll ping divine sense when I meet important people or if I walk into empty rooms in dungeons, and run away if I detect anything.

To me it feels like they wanted to leave this ability in for old time's sake but didn't want to still have people stand outside of rooms casting detect magic, poison and evil through the door as they once did. So they left it in but gutted it as an ability. I think this is kind of fine really, as one thing 5th has done is to put back in stuff like which previously got eclipsed by spells, like scouting "properly" by having a guy sneak about and look through keyholes.

[Kyutaru]

I guess it just depends on the table then.

Why? We have human beings capable of tracking other human beings through terrain without needing a line of footsteps to follow. You may find a single clue that points you in the direction of your quarry and the rest is educated guesswork. You spot a blood stain on a rock? The target is wounded and will head for water and shelter to tend to the wound. Identify the nearest water and shelter the target is likely to find.

Heck, the bounty hunters of reality used to track a man across entire countries. Without the internet.

[pwykersotz]

Why? We have human beings capable of tracking other human beings through terrain without needing a line of footsteps to follow. You may find a single clue that points you in the direction of your quarry and the rest is educated guesswork. You spot a blood stain on a rock? The target is wounded and will head for water and shelter to tend to the wound. Identify the nearest water and shelter the target is likely to find.

Heck, the bounty hunters of reality used to track a man across entire countries. Without the internet.

You and I are in agreement. But I don't really have much more to contribute than I did initially. Odigity disagrees with what I said, and it is tangential to the original topic. So I'm leaving it at that.

[Mandragola]

After playing my first session with my paladin last night, I actually used divine sense a number of times, successfully.

I:

- came across a weird formation of stones, which divine sense told me was under the effects of an unhallow spell.

- Detected a wizard's familiar (and the fact it was a fiend)

- Detected that a bunch of dead bodies were in fact zombies, allowing me to bash one to death with great weapon mastery and advantage, killing it in one hit!

- Should have, but didn't, detect the wizard's familiar again as he was hiding in a bush watching me bash the aforementioned zombie. The DM forgot I should have detected it, and we got ambushed! But it would have saved us a bunch of trouble otherwise.

So anyway, it strikes me that divine sense is useless most of the time, but sometimes it's extremely useful. It's not an always on ability, it's a situational bonus. I think I'm ok with that.

[Once a Fool]

To address both ongoing conversations:

Divine sense is always useful in situations where there is doubt about the supernatural nature of an NPC, corpse, or location as long as it works, because detecting nothing tells as much as detecting something.

Primal Awareness can be quite useful, but it really isn't for tracking. It's much better for knowing whether or not the party should press on for another hour before making camp.

[Angelalex242]

I'd fix it by having Divine Sense 'always on' instead something that must be activated. The Paladin can then walk down the street at night and casually pick out a vampire pinging on his radar.

[Kyutaru]

I'd fix it by having Divine Sense 'always on' instead something that must be activated. The Paladin can then walk down the street at night and casually pick out a vampire pinging on his radar.

But then that's unfair to vampires. It's not like they walk around with Detect Humans activated.

[odigity]

But then that's unfair to vampires. It's not like they walk around with Detect Humans activated.

They have an eternity to get over it.

[Angelalex242]

Actually, vampires kinda do have detect humans activated. It's called smelling the bloodsmell of a warm, yummy human. :P

Even in 5E, Paladins are kinda rare, so if the vampires and demons of the world have to run screaming from the sight of a holy warrior simply because they'll always be detected, well...that's just the hazard of being evil.

[Dalebert]

I'd fix it by having Divine Sense 'always on' instead something that must be activated.

I can picture a lot of DMs decreeing that just to shut the paladin up.

"I activate Divine Sense."

"I activate Divine Sense."

"I activate Divine Sense."

"Okay, geez! I'll just assume you're using it all the time."

This kind of happened with my character casting Shillelagh every time he had a bonus action free. My DM finally said "We're just going to assume you have Shillelagh going if you've had any unused bonus actions in the last minute since a combat has started!"

[NotALurker]

It is the difference between being duped by the important NPC or not.

Just use it whenever you meet someone new who is important.

Having Divine Sense could make a huge difference to an adventure right from the start.

Don't forget about being able to detect places and objects. You find those even if they are behind total cover. Makes it simple to find the evil MacGuffin as long as it is within 60ft of you or the evil lair. Or even the holy MacGuffin for that matter that you need to fight the evil whatever.

A lack of a positive hit is still information as well.

It is a narrow ability, but it can still be useful. It's just one of those things where it's either not useful at all in a situation or it is very useful.

the question is how easy is it to fool? if any creature that is above level 5 can be expected to be able to fool it then a negative result is near useless.

[odigity]

I can picture a lot of DMs decreeing that just to shut the paladin up.

Difference is I can only use DS 4/day right now. That's right, I can activate my nearly-useless power for 24 whole seconds every time I get a good night's sleep! Watch out...