Beserker Barbarian

[Celcey]

Greetings, Playgrounders! I have a character concept for a Beserker Barbarian, but I don't actually like the beserker path. I think Totem Warrior is much better. Beserker just fits theme wise. As of now my fix would be to just throw the exhaustion out the window for frenzy, and only make it a once-per-long rest ability. Maybe once-per-short rest at a higher level, but that might be too OP.

My questions for you are: a) Have you ever played a beserker? If so, how did you like it? What level did you get up to? Do you think anything needed to be changed? Did you change anything? If so, what, and how did that work for you?
b) Regardless of whether you've played one or not, what do you think of the beserker? Do you think it's fine as-is, or do you think it should be changed? If so, what would you change?

If I think of anything else, I'll add that in. Thanks in advance!

[Rebel7284]

Well real life berserkers venerated a bear as their totem animal. So perhaps just playing a bear-based totem warrior is actually better for your theme. :)

[NeoSeraphi]

You could just play a Berserker Barbarian and not use Frenzy. All of the Path of Berserker barbarian abilities other than Frenzy are great, especially Retaliation, and they all have a Berserker feel.

Frenzy is definitely balanced around it inflicting a penalty on your barbarian after you finish, so instead of simply dropping the penalty, if you want to change it here's how I would do it.

Frenzy: When a Path of the Berserker barbarian rages, he can also choose to enter a frenzy. If he does so, attacks made against him while he rages have advantage, but the bonus he gets to his damage rolls from Rage is doubled. Additionally, once per frenzy the barbarian may spend a bonus action to add his proficiency bonus to his damage rolls when he hits a creature that round (only applies to the first hit).

[SharkForce]

granting advantage on attacks is something the barbarian can already benefit from, and there's no extra bonus from double advantage... having a cost of granting advantage on attacks is essentially the same as no cost at all for one of their abilities.

[Alucard2099]

My questions for you are: a) Have you ever played a beserker? If so, how did you like it? What level did you get up to? Do you think anything needed to be changed? Did you change anything? If so, what, and how did that work for you?
b) Regardless of whether you've played one or not, what do you think of the beserker? Do you think it's fine as-is, or do you think it should be changed? If so, what would you change?!

So actually answering your questions... I am playing a berserker barbarian in a campaign now. I find it is well balanced and has some great abilities. I'm currently only level 5, but I am out damaging and out tanking everyone else in the party.

For me.. the class is great the way it is. If I remember to, I will update this when I hit level 15 or so.

[Demonic Spoon]

Frenzy is really powerful. Keep in mind you can combine it with reckless attack for a silly amount of damage. It's the kind of thing you use at the end of the dungeon to kill the BBEG, not in random encounters throughout the day.

[Amnoriath]

Well, to be honest the way Exhaustion is dealt with in 5e is utterly silly. They have 4 levels of it not including death and the only to alleviate 1 level is through a long rest? Not only is this not heroic it isn't even all that realistic. The first level of exhaustion is what we would call winded. At most a short rest should handle that. That would be the only thing I would change simply because it doesn't make sense but Frenzy is powerful and a Beserker can out damage a Fighter even to the end generally if they keep getting into the fray of battle.
Though if you really want to go with Totem Warrior going with Bear should about cover it. Though personally at the last ability either one of the other 2 evoke far better physical prowess which is part of what a Beserker is about.

[Demonic Spoon]

Well, to be honest the way Exhaustion is dealt with in 5e is utterly silly. They have 4 levels of it not including death and the only to alleviate 1 level is through a long rest? Not only is this not heroic it isn't even all that realistic. The first level of exhaustion is what we would call winded. At most a short rest should handle that. That would be the only thing I would change simply because it doesn't make sense but Frenzy is powerful and a Beserker can out damage a Fighter even to the end generally if they keep getting into the fray of battle.


It's really not. You get levels of exhaustion from things like going without food and certain spells. You can get levels of exhaustion from running for too long (per chase rules in DMG), but those are explicitly restored on a short rest.

[NeoSeraphi]

granting advantage on attacks is something the barbarian can already benefit from, and there's no extra bonus from double advantage... having a cost of granting advantage on attacks is essentially the same as no cost at all for one of their abilities.

Not true, considering this works even when you're not attacking. It grants advantage to archers attacking you from a distance, or the rogue sneaking up on you. And yes, you could say that you could use Reckless Attack cost free with this feature, but spamming Reckless Attack is likely to get you taking a lot more damage than using it carefully. Which is what the berserker barbarian should be all about.

[Amnoriath]

It's really not. You get levels of exhaustion from things like going without food and certain spells. You can get levels of exhaustion from running for too long (per chase rules in DMG), but those are explicitly restored on a short rest.

Exactly, they specify a short rest otherwise it is a long rest. It simply doesn't make sense that at most a minute of swinging one more time conduces far more exhaustion than chasing things for a much longer period of time.

[SharkForce]

Exactly, they specify a short rest otherwise it is a long rest. It simply doesn't make sense that at most a minute of swinging one more time conduces far more exhaustion than chasing things for a much longer period of time.

no, they're quite clear. it's a long rest unless it's specified to be a short rest.

yes, that does suck for the berserker. yes, that does make frenzy pretty awful, especially if feats are in the game (which i suspect they are in the vast majority of games) and bonus action attacks are comparatively easy to get.

[Mechaviking]

So it boils down to feats? If yes go Pole-arm Mastery don´t play berserker since that feat effectively gives you all zerker has to offer(at level 4 or 1 if human variant).

[Celcey]

It's a long rest unless it's specified to be a short rest.

You misunderstood him- that's exactly what he said.


Frenzy is really powerful.

It is really? It's just an extra attack, and it happens to eat up your bonus action. It's good, but it doesn't seem worth exhaustion. It's not as bad as I thought at first because the first level only gives you disadvantage on ability checks, but if you've already got that, you're screwed in battle as well as outside it. I don't think it's a fair penalty, and it makes zero in-game sense, considering any martial fighting two handed or a level 11+ fighter can do the exact same thing with no penalty at all.

[Demonic Spoon]

It is really? It's just an extra attack, and it happens to eat up your bonus action. It's good, but it doesn't seem worth exhaustion. It's not as bad as I thought at first because the first level only gives you disadvantage on ability checks, but if you've already got that, you're screwed in battle as well as outside it. I don't think it's a fair penalty, and it makes zero in-game sense, considering any martial fighting two handed or a level 11+ fighter can do the exact same thing with no penalty at all.

Prior to level 5, it literally doubles your damage output. After that, it's a 50% damage increase. A raging barbarian using Frenzy will be doing substantially more damage than a TWF fighter. A level 11 fighter gets 3 attacks with no penalty, but that's a level 11 class feature, and thus not fair to compare with.

If we want to compare it to a fighter, it's most comparable to action surge. A fighter can blow his action surge once per short rest

It makes plenty of ingame sense. A level 11 fighter has reached a level of mastery that a level 3 barbarian (the level that you get Frenzy) has not. A level 11 fighter just represents a mastery of martial combat that allows him to attack more often and better than someone who isn't a level 11 fighter. Frenzy represents an almost-supernatural rage wherein the barbarian pushes his body beyond what it's normally capable of. It's the same concept driving the idea that the barbarian gets physically stronger during his rage.

[Amnoriath]

So it boils down to feats? If yes go Pole-arm Mastery don´t play berserker since that feat effectively gives you all zerker has to offer(at level 4 or 1 if human variant).

Not really, the extra attack from Polearm Mastery is a d4 and can only deal bludgeoning damage which is a major step down from the good polearms. Is it reliable without backlash, sure, but it isn't all that comparable.

[Amnoriath]

Prior to level 5, it literally doubles your damage output. After that, it's a 50% damage increase. A raging barbarian using Frenzy will be doing substantially more damage than a TWF fighter. A level 11 fighter gets 3 attacks with no penalty, but that's a level 11 class feature, and thus not fair to compare with.

If we want to compare it to a fighter, it's most comparable to action surge. A fighter can blow his action surge once per short rest

It makes plenty of ingame sense. A level 11 fighter has reached a level of mastery that a level 3 barbarian (the level that you get Frenzy) has not. A level 11 fighter just represents a mastery of martial combat that allows him to attack more often and better than someone who isn't a level 11 fighter. Frenzy represents an almost-supernatural rage wherein the barbarian pushes his body beyond what it's normally capable of. It's the same concept driving the idea that the barbarian gets physically stronger during his rage.
While no one is denying that a payment ought to be made the fact is as of now when you would use it and situations or conditions arose to knock you out of your rage all your skills are now at disadvantage. What is the worse part it lasts through out the day unless someone coughs up Greater Restoration. A short rest is reasonable especially in the intended encounters through out the day.

[Demonic Spoon]

While no one is denying that a payment ought to be made the fact is as of now when you would use it and situations or conditions arose to knock you out of your rage all your skills are now at disadvantage. What is the worse part it lasts through out the day unless someone coughs up Greater Restoration. A short rest is reasonable especially in the intended encounters through out the day.

Then you might as well use it basically every time you rage, because you would be able to Frenzy pretty much as often as you could Rage.

By comparison, all of the totem barbarian abilities at the same level are just as situational. Wolf relies on having other meleers in your party beating on the same target. Eagle relies on fighting enough enemies that you would ever want to be darting between them. Bear relies on fighting enemies that do meaningful amounts of non-physical damage. And they all need to be done while raging, which isn't something you do every encounter.

Frenzy is useful in a few specific situations - where you're likely to rest soon and/or there's a big, important, or dangerous fight that you want to maximize your effectiveness in.

[Amnoriath]

Then you might as well use it basically every time you rage, because you would be able to Frenzy pretty much as often as you could Rage.

By comparison, all of the totem barbarian abilities at the same level are just as situational. Wolf relies on having other meleers in your party beating on the same target. Eagle relies on fighting enough enemies that you would ever want to be darting between them. Bear relies on fighting enemies that do meaningful amounts of non-physical damage. And they all need to be done while raging, which isn't something you do every encounter.

Frenzy is useful in a few specific situations - where you're likely to rest soon and/or there's a big, important, or dangerous fight that you want to maximize your effectiveness in.
1. How many short rests are you expecting them to make? Maybe when you first get it but the random encounter an hour on top of the intended ones will make them think twice before using it. Later on though no it won't keep pace with rages per day. In reality you can figure about 2 per day with travel..etc.
2. Assuming 5 ft is the standard with mobile combat and lack of OA's reach isn't all that important anymore. So, as long as you have a couple or melee characters it comes into play quite a bit. Also the Eagle can Dash as a bonus action making them very mobile and opens up options, not situational at all. As for the Bear having resistances to 8 more damage types is so solid that calling it situational is ludicrous.

[SharkForce]

Not really, the extra attack from Polearm Mastery is a d4 and can only deal bludgeoning damage which is a major step down from the good polearms. Is it reliable without backlash, sure, but it isn't all that comparable.

the difference between a d4 and a d10 is on average 3 damage. that will vary a bit depending on other factors (if you reroll 1s and 2s, that benefits the d4 more than the d10; if you get a critical on the attack, that will favour the d10 over the d4). but really, given a choice between taking exhaustion (which starts off at disadvantage on everything a barbarian cares about and then proceeds to go downhill from there at a rate comparable to jumping off a cliff) or dealing 3 fewer points of damage on 1 of your 2-3 attacks per round... you really shouldn't be choosing exhaustion too often.

not to mention that polearm mastery also makes it fairly likely for you to get an opportunity attack in, which is worth an extra attack every so often (precisely how often is a bit hard to define, as it will vary greatly from fight to fight).

then factor in if he takes great weapon master, he's looking at also getting a bonus action attack when he kills or crits an enemy... so some of those 1d4 hits will be regular hits. and since he can choose to gain advantage on attacks any time he feels like it, crits are even a bit more likely.

there's a *reason* totem warrior is greatly preferred by many.

[Mechaviking]

the difference between a d4 and a d10 is on average 3 damage. that will vary a bit depending on other factors (if you reroll 1s and 2s, that benefits the d4 more than the d10; if you get a critical on the attack, that will favour the d10 over the d4). but really, given a choice between taking exhaustion (which starts off at disadvantage on everything a barbarian cares about and then proceeds to go downhill from there at a rate comparable to jumping off a cliff) or dealing 3 fewer points of damage on 1 of your 2-3 attacks per round... you really shouldn't be choosing exhaustion too often.

not to mention that polearm mastery also makes it fairly likely for you to get an opportunity attack in, which is worth an extra attack every so often (precisely how often is a bit hard to define, as it will vary greatly from fight to fight).

then factor in if he takes great weapon master, he's looking at also getting a bonus action attack when he kills or crits an enemy... so some of those 1d4 hits will be regular hits. and since he can choose to gain advantage on attacks any time he feels like it, crits are even a bit more likely.

there's a *reason* totem warrior is greatly preferred by many.

/\ , Basically a beast of a feat added to a beast.

With human you can get str & con 20 and both of these(in point buy), kind of hard to time the GWM, probably at 12 when you have enhanced criticals and already have str 20, then go con oh and wear medium armor :D

[Demonic Spoon]

1. How many short rests are you expecting them to make? Maybe when you first get it but the random encounter an hour on top of the intended ones will make them think twice before using it. Later on though no it won't keep pace with rages per day. In reality you can figure about 2 per day with travel..etc.
2. Assuming 5 ft is the standard with mobile combat and lack of OA's reach isn't all that important anymore. So, as long as you have a couple or melee characters it comes into play quite a bit. Also the Eagle can Dash as a bonus action making them very mobile and opens up options, not situational at all. As for the Bear having resistances to 8 more damage types is so solid that calling it situational is ludicrous.


1. 2 short rests/day, so that's 3 uses per day assuming you rest after the last combat. You only get 3 rages per day until mid levels.

2. How many melee characters are you expecting you'll have, especially beating on the same target? More party-dependent than encounter-dependent.

Bonus action dash when raging is pretty good, but it depends on whether or not you actually need to move very far in a particular combat. You won't always. Sometimes the target will just be in front of you, such as if it's a melee opponent.

Of course Bear is situational. There are tons of monsters in the MM that primarily do physical damage, and Bear provides you no benefit towards those. Not all damage types are equal.

[Amnoriath]

1. 2 short rests/day, so that's 3 uses per day assuming you rest after the last combat. You only get 3 rages per day until mid levels.

2. How many melee characters are you expecting you'll have, especially beating on the same target? More party-dependent than encounter-dependent.

Bonus action dash when raging is pretty good, but it depends on whether or not you actually need to move very far in a particular combat. You won't always. Sometimes the target will just be in front of you, such as if it's a melee opponent.

Of course Bear is situational. There are tons of monsters in the MM that primarily do physical damage, and Bear provides you no benefit towards those. Not all damage types are equal.

1. And how many large battles can be figured for the day at that point? Random encounters at lower levels effectively bring a lot more potential for these to happen and as such disadvantage on all skills is a large hindrance. The real question is do you really want to curse them with this through out the day once they have had 1 of their major battles?
2. That point was merely just to give you a figure on how its usefulness can exponentially grow. Even if you only have 1 giving automatic advantage is very useful in this mobile combat because either they or you can move to give it. Also keep in mind only you have to be adjacent to the monsters.
3. And how many of them have some kind of energy damage attack and/or spells? You act as if somehow they lost the physical ones when of course they didn't.

[Amnoriath]

the difference between a d4 and a d10 is on average 3 damage. that will vary a bit depending on other factors (if you reroll 1s and 2s, that benefits the d4 more than the d10; if you get a critical on the attack, that will favour the d10 over the d4). but really, given a choice between taking exhaustion (which starts off at disadvantage on everything a barbarian cares about and then proceeds to go downhill from there at a rate comparable to jumping off a cliff) or dealing 3 fewer points of damage on 1 of your 2-3 attacks per round... you really shouldn't be choosing exhaustion too often.

not to mention that polearm mastery also makes it fairly likely for you to get an opportunity attack in, which is worth an extra attack every so often (precisely how often is a bit hard to define, as it will vary greatly from fight to fight).

then factor in if he takes great weapon master, he's looking at also getting a bonus action attack when he kills or crits an enemy... so some of those 1d4 hits will be regular hits. and since he can choose to gain advantage on attacks any time he feels like it, crits are even a bit more likely.

there's a *reason* totem warrior is greatly preferred by many.
1. Yes, the choice may be better because one is automatic while the other comes with a price but in this edition you take any little bits of damage you can get and since it is the same weapon it is strictly inferior in damage output. Also keep in mind it is Disadvantage to skills and Rage will supersede the Strength based one.
2. Yeah and at that point you have 2 feats that overlap and both only deal with battle. Only a variant human will still have decent stats.
PS: Keep in mind I am the one arguing over a short rest recovery.

[Celcey]

Of course Bear is situational. There are tons of monsters in the MM that primarily do physical damage, and Bear provides you no benefit towards those. Not all damage types are equal.

Bear gives you resistance to all damage except psychic. I'd say that's pretty darn good. (And even if it didn't include the physicals, you already have resistance to the them from your rage.)


It makes plenty of ingame sense. A level 11 fighter has reached a level of mastery that a level 3 barbarian (the level that you get Frenzy) has not. A level 11 fighter just represents a mastery of martial combat that allows him to attack more often and better than someone who isn't a level 11 fighter. Frenzy represents an almost-supernatural rage wherein the barbarian pushes his body beyond what it's normally capable of. It's the same concept driving the idea that the barbarian gets physically stronger during his rage.

Mm. I thought of that. Still doesn't seem like something you should get exhaustion over.

Maybe what I'll do is make it so I can get rid of the exhaustion per short rest (or shortened short rest) but they can only use frenzy once per long rest.

[Demonic Spoon]

1. And how many large battles can be figured for the day at that point? Random encounters at lower levels effectively bring a lot more potential for these to happen and as such disadvantage on all skills is a large hindrance. The real question is do you really want to curse them with this through out the day once they have had 1 of their major battles?
2. That point was merely just to give you a figure on how its usefulness can exponentially grow. Even if you only have 1 giving automatic advantage is very useful in this mobile combat because either they or you can move to give it. Also keep in mind only you have to be adjacent to the monsters.
3. And how many of them have some kind of energy damage attack and/or spells? You act as if somehow they lost the physical ones when of course they didn't.

1. Presumably you wouldn't use Frenzy during a random encounter in the beginning of the day.

2. Nope, Wolf only gives advantage on melee attack rolls made against the monster you're next to.

3. A good chunk, but not all.


Bear gives you resistance to all damage except psychic. I'd say that's pretty darn good. (And even if it didn't include the physicals, you already have resistance to the them from your rage.)


It's strong, but situational.


Mm. I thought of that. Still doesn't seem like something you should get exhaustion over.

Maybe what I'll do is make it so I can get rid of the exhaustion per short rest (or shortened short rest) but they can only use frenzy once per short rest.


That's going to be way too powerful. You only get a smallish number of rages anyway (close to 1/short rest anyway). I haven't math'd it out, but a frenzy'd great weapon barbarian probably outstrips everything else in raw damage except possibly a fighter in the single round that he gets to action surge. If you really want to get rid of the mechanic, I'd just use something like NeoSeraphi's change above.

[Amnoriath]

1. Presumably you wouldn't use Frenzy during a random encounter in the beginning of the day.

2. Nope, Wolf only gives advantage on melee attack rolls made against the monster you're next to.

3. A good chunk, but not all.

That's going to be way too powerful. You only get a smallish number of rages anyway (close to 1/short rest anyway). I haven't math'd it out, but a frenzy'd great weapon barbarian probably outstrips everything else in raw damage except possibly a fighter in the single round that he gets to action surge. If you really want to get rid of the mechanic, I'd just use something like NeoSeraphi's change above.

1. Who said they would? They could of just went through the large encounter and they needed the damage. All of a sudden those next few hours he is unquenchably crippled during them making him an easier target all that time during those encounter or even the next big one. The problem isn't the penalty. It is the fact that they have to take this all day without alleviation.
2. Yes, but only you have to be adjacent. They don't nor do they have to stay. All have a move action if not more in this game.
3. But if the potential to not have resistance is far more situational than when you do how is it situational?
4. They do that already. As of now technically he can go 2 encounters before a short rest doing this without any harm to offensive capability. The real question is can they do it safely? In a way this actually limits how much they can do this consecutively in exchange that they aren't cursed for the day when they really needed him to deal that damage. Does this spread it out over the day of course it does, but Action Surge scales in many ways and has far more options. This doesn't.

[Celcey]

It's strong, but situational.

How on earth is resistance to all damage except psychic situational? You take half-damage from literally everything unless you're fighting a mind flayer!


That's going to be way too powerful. You only get a smallish number of rages anyway (close to 1/short rest anyway). I haven't math'd it out, but a frenzy'd great weapon barbarian probably outstrips everything else in raw damage except possibly a fighter in the single round that he gets to action surge. If you really want to get rid of the mechanic, I'd just use something like NeoSeraphi's change above.

I made a typo. What I meant to say was that they could get rid of the exhaustion with a short rest, but frenzy would only be usable once per long rest. I typed short instead of long, but I fixed it now.

[Jeraa]

How on earth is resistance to all damage except psychic situational? You take half-damage from literally everything unless you're fighting a mind flayer!

He may mean its situational because you only get it while raging, which is a limited resource (until you get to 20th level).

Or he misread "psychic" as "physical", and thinks it only applies toward energy damage.

[Demonic Spoon]

How on earth is resistance to all damage except psychic situational? You take half-damage from literally everything unless you're fighting a mind flayer!


Because lots and lots of things do only or primarily physical damage, which you get resistance to out of the box, and the addition of elemental damage is only useful if you're fighting something that does meaningful amounts of elemental damage?


I made a typo. What I meant to say was that they could get rid of the exhaustion with a short rest, but frenzy would only be usable once per long rest. I typed short instead of long, but I fixed it now.


That's probably okay. I dunno, would need playtesting.

[NeoSeraphi]

I dunno. Bear totem may seem 'situational', but it gives you resistance to force damage, which is something that should never be uttered by any player ever. "Hey guys, I'm resistant to force!"

The casters can't even talk about that, since I don't believe there are any spells that grant resistance to force damage. Which is good, mundanes getting something that can't be replicated by a spell finally.

[SharkForce]

wish gives resistance to force.

i mean, there are potential drawbacks, but it does :P

[Xetheral]

So, would a character resistant to force weigh half as much? :)

[Particle_Man]

Well real life berserkers venerated a bear as their totem animal. So perhaps just playing a bear-based totem warrior is actually better for your theme. :)

+1 for the really angry Bear totem barbarian. :smallsmile:

[Particle_Man]

Oh, see if your DM will allow you to play a Skeleton. They are immune to exhaustion. Then you can frenzy whenever you rage. :smallbiggrin: :smallfurious: :smallcool:

[Celcey]

Because lots and lots of things do only or primarily physical damage, which you get resistance to out of the box, and the addition of elemental damage is only useful if you're fighting something that does meaningful amounts of elemental damage.

Oooooh, right. I was confused for a moment as to what you meant.



So, would a character resistant to force weigh half as much? :)

This is possibly the best answer ever. I'm showing this to my physics teacher.