What "Tier" are PF's Wildshape and Animal Companion?

[Coidzor]

(Inspired by the discussion here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?389650-Intended-Minor-Nerf-to-the-Druid-Am-I-going-too-far).)

So an old saw is that in 3.5 Wildshape alone would cause Druid to be Tier 3 and a lesser form of it does raise Ranger up from Tier 4 to Tier 3. While an Animal Companion, on the other hand, is basically a disposable T4 character that can be selected for specialized purposes as needs dictate (Going up against something where we need a good grappler? Sure, just give me a day to go find a big ol' croc...). That, or a character with only Animal Companion as a class feature and nothing else would be T4, but that might just be splitting hairs and/or semantics.

Pathfinder has codified the rules for both Wildshape and Animal Companions but also weakened both class features to some extent, such that for direct combat applications, wildshape is basically a choice between being a primary caster or being a melee character, and all Animal Companions basically have the same progression with some minor tradeoffs for ability scores, size, and minor special abilities rather than being able to get you a good grappler or pouncer or tripper.

I know Cavalier is Tier 4, though that's as least as much on the merits of the class itself as the limited companion selection and companion itself. Ranger receives a lower progression and has to spend a feat for full progression animal companion but is basically still Tier 4, though higher in its tier than 3.5's Ranger.

Synthesist has an infinitely more customizable, and IIRC ultimately more powerful, version of wildshape and is generally argued as either Tier 3 for either its casting or its Synthesisting or the combination thereof with occasional arguments that the casting is actually good enough to break into the bottom of Tier 2.

So the question then, is, how have these changes affected the Tier of these abilities?

Is a Druid that sets fire to their spellcasting Tier 3 from their Wildshaping abilities? Would granting Ranger full wildshape progression raise them to Tier 3?

[Ssalarn]

An animal companion alone generally won't change your tier, unless you're a Tier 5 class and the AnC is improving your combat capabilities enough to bump you to Tier 4.

As to Wildshape... If you had a druid that looks exactly like the current one but with its spellcasting removed, I'd say it's Tier 4, cusping into Tier 3 as the later wildshape options (like elemental) come online giving it access to unique abilities. A restricted Wildshape, like the Feral Hunter's, that doesn't gain the later progressions would never take you out of Tier 4 territory.

As a sidenote, I had always considered the Ranger, with his 6+INT skills, good proficiencies, full BAB, bonus feats, 1/2 progression spellcasting, and AnC that shares his Favored Enemy and Favored Terrain bonuses, to be Tier 3.

[Extra Anchovies]

How is a single animal companion a T4 character? An unarchetyped fighter is low T4/high T5 and will have (assuming a two-handed weapon):


higher to-hit (full BAB, weapon training)
higher damage per hit (1.5*Str to damage, +3 damage per -1 from power attack, weapon training)
more HP: D10 HD
better skill points, assuming Int 10+ or Int 8+ and human
their own WBL to spend on items (which will further boost their attack and damage)
significantly more feats (up to 2.5 times as many)

Add on, say, the Mutation Warrior archetype (which just so happens to replace or reduce none of the above features), and they get even better. A properly optimized Fighter (e.g. picking two-handed reach weapons, using power attack, choosing a strong archetype like Mutation Warrior) will beat a properly optimized animal companion (e.g. picking an Allosaurus, Big Cat, or Deinonychus instead of a Stingray, Baboon, or Dire Rat, and then choosing useful feats) every time.

The only advantage the Animal Companion class feature has over a Fighter is that you can change your animal companion, and thus can get a flying form one day, then switch to an aquatic form. Except a fighter can both fly and operate underwater through proper WBL use.

And compared to the other T4 options (Barbarian, Slayer, Martial Master Lore Warden Fighter, etc), an animal companion is nothing.

Combat-focused animal companions are at best T5 meatshields/grapplers/chargers. The class feature has some utility because you can switch out companions, but a fighter will be a better thing to have almost every time. The only downside of having another party member instead of an animal companion is that the party member receives a share of the XP.

[Sayt]

higher to-hit (full BAB, weapon training)
higher damage per hit (1.5*Str to damage, +3 damage per -1 from power attack, weapon training)
more HP: D10 HD
better skill points, assuming Int 10+ or Int 8+ and human
their own WBL to spend on items (which will further boost their attack and damage)
significantly more feats (up to 2.5 times as many)


Not only these, but more actual hit dice, meaning fewer HP and worse saves for the companion.

[Larkas]

Eh, the animal companion lets you break the action economy, so there's that.

[Extra Anchovies]

Eh, the animal companion lets you break the action economy, so there's that.

Adding another character to the party does the same thing :smalltongue:

[Coidzor]

How is a single animal companion a T4 character?

:smallconfused: In 3.5? I believe the disposability and ability to switch between them, though the grappling Animal Companions were generally going to be better at it than most characters built to be able to grapple without only being able to grapple.

:smallconfused: In PF? No idea, that's why I'm asking you. :smalltongue:


Adding another character to the party does the same thing :smalltongue:

There are logistical concerns with finding another player that aren't present with obtaining an animal companion or cohort, however. :smalltongue:

[deuxhero]

In PF you can boost your animal companion an incredible amount by just spending feats, and an Aasimar or (half-)Elf Oracle can get one at 1.5 times their level through favored class bonus.

After 4 (5+a language if you count what it costs to get back the extra spells you lost on the FCB) feats on a class that isn't particularlly feat heavy you can have a mutant cat with more HD than your own that can regenerate, slowly fly, ignore non-magical difficult terrain, an always on 20% miss chance, have extra strength or DR/adamantite (pick one at the start of the day) has 6 primary natural attacks (bite, 4 claws, stinger) with pounce, smite evil 1/day, with DR/evil and energy resistance WAY above what's "good" for your CR (and you are STILL a full caster after all that)

[Extra Anchovies]

After 4 (5+a language if you count what it costs to get back the extra spells you lost on the FCB) feats on a class that isn't particularlly feat heavy you can have a mutant cat with more HD than your own that can regenerate, slowly fly, ignore non-magical difficult terrain, an always on 20% miss chance, have extra strength or DR/adamantite (pick one at the start of the day) has 6 primary natural attacks (bite, 4 claws, stinger) with pounce, smite evil 1/day, with DR/evil and energy resistance WAY above what's "good" for your CR (and you are STILL a full caster after all that)

Which five? I'm curious.

[Sayt]

Celestial Companion, Evolved Companion and Spirits gift, I recognise.

[deuxhero]

Yep. Other is an additional instance of Evolved Companion. The possible 5th feat+language is Human Heritage alternate racial feature+fast learner to be able to take both the "Add one spell known from the oracle spell list. This spell must be at least one level below the highest spell level the oracle can cast." and "Add +½ to the oracle’s level for the purpose of determining the effects of one revelation" favored class bonuses.

[animewatcha]

In PF you can boost your animal companion an incredible amount by just spending feats, and an Aasimar or (half-)Elf Oracle can get one at 1.5 times their level through favored class bonus.

After 4 (5+a language if you count what it costs to get back the extra spells you lost on the FCB) feats on a class that isn't particularlly feat heavy you can have a mutant cat with more HD than your own that can regenerate, slowly fly, ignore non-magical difficult terrain, an always on 20% miss chance, have extra strength or DR/adamantite (pick one at the start of the day) has 6 primary natural attacks (bite, 4 claws, stinger) with pounce, smite evil 1/day, with DR/evil and energy resistance WAY above what's "good" for your CR (and you are STILL a full caster after all that)

Details on all this please.

[deuxhero]

Be an Aasimar Oracle. Take Lunar Mystery and Primal Companion. Apply the Aasimar alternate favored class bonus to Primal Companion. After that it's just a matter of taking Celestial Companion, Evolved Companion (Claws) Evolved Companion (Stinger) and Spirits Gift in whatever order you feel like.

If you want to go further, it's not hard to also stack Noble Scion: War+Prophetic Armor (Make everything dexterity based except skills, CMD and ranged attacks based on your charisma instead) and Spirit Guide (potentially being able to pick a bunch of Wizard spells each day depending on how the GM rules Arcane Enlightenment, but even if you can't the spirit bonus spells and floating hex are pretty good) onto the build

[Extra Anchovies]

Be an Aasimar Oracle. Take Lunar Mystery and Primal Companion. Apply the Aasimar alternate favored class bonus to Primal Companion. After that it's just a matter of taking Celestial Companion, Evolved Companion (Claws) Evolved Companion (Stinger) and Spirits Gift in whatever order you feel like.

If you want to go further, it's not hard to also stack Noble Scion: War+Prophetic Armor (Make everything dexterity based except skills, CMD and ranged attacks based on your charisma instead) and Spirit Guide (potentially being able to pick a bunch of Wizard spells each day depending on how the GM rules Arcane Enlightenment, but even if you can't the spirit bonus spells and floating hex are pretty good) onto the build

Hm. Interesting.

Regarding HD: Just did the math, and there is one occasion (level 12) where the companion will have three more HD than you, and at all other levels will have only one or two more HD than you. These are animal HD, so that doesn't mean too much.

Regeneration: Nope. Not regeneration, but fast healing (Life Spirit). Important difference.

Regarding the natural attacks: what you're describing doesn't work. Here's why.

Claws: An eidolon has a pair of vicious claws at the end of its limbs, giving it two claw attacks. These attacks are primary attacks. The claws deal 1d4 points of damage (1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). The eidolon must have the limbs evolution to take this evolution. This evolution can only be applied to the limbs (legs) evolution once. This evolution can be selected more than once, but the eidolon must possess an equal number of the limbs evolution.The Limbs evolution costs two points. Thus, no limbs evolution via Evolved Companion, and thus no extra claws.

Sting: An eidolon possesses a long, barbed stinger at the end of its tail, granting it a sting attack. This attack is a primary attack. The sting deals 1d4 points of damage (1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). The eidolon must possess the tail evolution to take this evolution. This evolution can be selected more than once, but the eidolon must possess an equal number of the tail evolution.Thankfully, Tail costs one point, so you can spend two feats to get a Tail evolution and then a Sting evolution. It doesn't matter if your companion already has non-claw limbs or a tail, you need the actual evolutions. Wooo, two feats for one more attack.

Regarding DR: the animal companion gets DR 5/evil when you're level 4, which is pretty darn solid, and gets 10/evil at level 11, which remains good. Doesn't keep scaling (and thus drops off at higher levels), but whatever.

Cold/acid/electricity resistance is 5 from levels 1-3, 10 from levels 4-8, and 15 from that point on. Again, not too bad. So Celestial Companion is a good feat.

Also, what you're saying about Fast Learner is completely false. It does not let you select two class-specific FCBs. The feat text:

When you gain a level in a favored class, you gain both +1 hit point and +1 skill rank instead of choosing either one or the other benefit or you can choose an alternate class reward.
The feat gives you two options:
1. Select one skill rank and one hit point
or
2. Select one alternate class reward

[Larkas]

Adding another character to the party does the same thing :smalltongue:


There are logistical concerns with finding another player that aren't present with obtaining an animal companion or cohort, however. :smalltongue:

Indeed :smallbiggrin: It won't help a character's action economy, however. And then there's share spells!

I think a better benchmark is the following: would you rather get an animal companion or a free Leadership-like fighter cohort (or any other low T4 class - remember, most [all?] classes got to at least low T4 levels of competence in PF)? What about an expert or warrior cohort?

[deuxhero]

Regarding the natural attacks: what you're describing doesn't work. Here's why.


You don't need the actual evolution, just the limbs. Otherwise you could never have the example "mount" evolution given as an example because you could never gain the base form. The Evolved Familiar feat, which also uses "must conform to any limitations of the evolution." says " familiars with wings can take the wing buffet evolution" (clearly meaning avian familiars, as wings are 2 evolution points).

If the feat actually did require the evolutions as named, it wouldn't be banned in PFS

[upho]

I think a better benchmark is the following: would you rather get an animal companion or a free Leadership-like fighter cohort (or any other low T4 class - remember, most [all?] classes got to at least low T4 levels of competence in PF)? What about an expert or warrior cohort?Well, yes, if you're looking to determine the tier of the AC by comparing its "tier-shifting influence" (i.e. how much it increases the usefulness of its "master's" class) to that of a PC class cohort, but I don't think that necessarily tells us much about the tier of the AC by itself. Conversely, knowing the tier of a PC-controlled creature on its own doesn't necessarily tell us much about it's "tier-shifting influence" on its master's class. So, assuming what the OP is ultimately trying to pin down is the AC's "tier-shifting influence", I believe the method of placing the AC in a tier by itself will give misleading results.

For example, as other posters have said, in most cases a fighter cohort is by itself likely at the very least equal to an AC in terms of where it's placed in the tiers, but I guess the fighter actually has less "tier-shifting influence" on most classes than an AC would. This is simply because most PC classes can already do what the fighter cohort does, while the AC may bring several otherwise more costly or inaccessible tools to improve its master's versatility (such as special attacks, share spells, movement modes, senses, inconspicuous physical form and various other spying/scouting abilities). In the classic three example scenarios described by JaronK (trap-filled dragon dungeon, undercover diplomacy and large scale battle), I'm pretty certain at least a more combat-oriented druid's performance would suffer if the AC was exchanged for a fighter cohort. And I think the same thing would be true for all Paizo classes of T4 or less - the martial classes - since they have both the most overlapping capabilities with the fighter cohort and the most difficulty to increase their versatility in other areas where the AC can excel. Though in the case of a more caster-focused druid and similar T1-3 classes like most sorcerers, bards, wizards and witches, I guess the fighter cohort may have a greater "tier-shifting influence".

Of course, my estimation is based on the AC's and cohort's optimization ceilings rather than floors, meaning the many unique options available only to a master of an AC, such as those showcased by deuxhero above, is a rather significant part of the reason why I think the AC typically has a greater influence than a fighter cohort.


You don't need the actual evolution, just the limbs. Otherwise you could never have the example "mount" evolution given as an example because you could never gain the base form. The Evolved Familiar feat, which also uses "must conform to any limitations of the evolution." says " familiars with wings can take the wing buffet evolution" (clearly meaning avian familiars, as wings are 2 evolution points).This. The evos were written for eidolons and haven't yet been adapted for other later additions (or errata/updates in the universal monster rules).

[Coidzor]

Well, yes, if you're looking to determine the tier of the AC by comparing its "tier-shifting influence" (i.e. how much it increases the usefulness of its "master's" class) to that of a PC class cohort, but I don't think that necessarily tells us much about the tier of the AC by itself. Conversely, knowing the tier of a PC-controlled creature on its own doesn't necessarily tell us much about it's "tier-shifting influence" on its master's class. So, assuming what the OP is ultimately trying to pin down is the AC's "tier-shifting influence", I believe the method of placing the AC in a tier by itself will give misleading results.

Ideally we'd know the tier of an Animal Companion in and of itself, the tier of Animal Companions based upon the quantum ability to switch between different ones, what influence an Animal Companion would have on the tier of a character with no other class features, and how the synergy of having class features and abiliites that work with the animal companion and that the animal companion complements would impact the tiers of various sorts of characters, as well as a rough idea of where the tier floors and ceilings are.


For example, as other posters have said, in most cases a fighter cohort is by itself likely at the very least equal to an AC in terms of where it's placed in the tiers, but I guess the fighter actually has less "tier-shifting influence" on most classes than an AC would. This is simply because most PC classes can already do what the fighter cohort does, while the AC may bring several otherwise more costly or inaccessible tools to improve its master's versatility (such as special attacks, share spells, movement modes, senses, inconspicuous physical form and various other spying/scouting abilities). In the classic three example scenarios described by JaronK (trap-filled dragon dungeon, undercover diplomacy and large scale battle), I'm pretty certain at least a more combat-oriented druid's performance would suffer if the AC was exchanged for a fighter cohort. And I think the same thing would be true for all Paizo classes of T4 or less - the martial classes - since they have both the most overlapping capabilities with the fighter cohort and the most difficulty to increase their versatility in other areas where the AC can excel. Though in the case of a more caster-focused druid and similar T1-3 classes like most sorcerers, bards, wizards and witches, I guess the fighter cohort may have a greater "tier-shifting influence".

Of course, my estimation is based on the AC's and cohort's optimization ceilings rather than floors, meaning the many unique options available only to a master of an AC, such as those showcased by deuxhero above, is a rather significant part of the reason why I think the AC typically has a greater influence than a fighter cohort.

Makes sense. Thank you. :smallsmile:


This. The evos were written for eidolons and haven't yet been adapted for other later additions (or errata/updates in the universal monster rules).

Those rules of applying evolutions to non-eidolons do seem a bit wonky, but neat and potentially quite good with a little bit of polish. :smallsmile:


Indeed :smallbiggrin: It won't help a character's action economy, however. And then there's share spells!

I think a better benchmark is the following: would you rather get an animal companion or a free Leadership-like fighter cohort (or any other low T4 class - remember, most [all?] classes got to at least low T4 levels of competence in PF)? What about an expert or warrior cohort?

Those are definitely points of comparison I'd be interested in as well, yes. I know that with PF's change in the skill system, having a loyal NPC, even if they're a Commoner means you have a fairly decent UMD platform if they have enough HD to not be completely irrelevant.

Huh, there's a thought.

...Can NPCs or NPC-classed characters even have traits?