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RMS Oceanic
2007-03-30, 05:16 AM
My brother usually runs our campaign, but he won't be available tomorrow, so he's suggesting I take over for him and run a simple side quest. What are people's thoughts of a DM also running a PC character? Is it too difficult to draw the line between God and PC?

Also, do you have any recommendations for a side quest? It's set in a city under siege by druids due to an undead-related prophecy coming to pass. I was thinking that we retrieve a shipment of Mithral for an armorsmith, and the reward is we get mithral armour for the cost of normal armour, since we provided the mithral. It's a quest for six level five characters (Fighter, Barbarian, Archer Ranger, Rogue, Warmage and Healbot Cleric), and I'd like to try and get us to level six if possible, so it can be rather challenging.

Foxer
2007-03-30, 06:56 AM
I've run and played games with multiple GMs, who also play PCs in those games when not GMing.

It isn't necessarily a bad idea. I've seen it done well, but I've also seen it done very badly, so care is needed. Personally, what I do when somebody else takes over one of my campaigns for a while is to create a disposable character who isn't especially meant to last longer than that session. It stops me from getting precious about my character and abusing my GM-knowledge to help him out. A personal favourite is to take a character who is brave but foolish so he can get killed in the big finale. I get my role-playing kick without having to have worry about the long-term effects.

If you're taking over someone else's campaign for the night remember two rules: one, it's not your game. Do nothing that will screw up the main GM's plans (so, your mithril armour scenario might not be appropriate if it gives the party an advantage the GM doesn't want them to have), and, two, keep it simple. You're only doing this until the main GM is back, so don't start anything you can't finish. Go for a comparatively lightweight scenario that doesn't impact the ongoing plot overmuch (so, here your mithril armour scenario would be fine).

As a side note, try to keep the tone of your sessions consistent with the normal GM's ones. Don't stick a comedy interlude in their dark-and-gritty scenario, for example.

As for what you do with your PC whilst you're the stand-in session GM, well, that's up to you. I wouldn't play them at the same time, personally. You avoid the temptation to "cheat" (and accusations of cheating, come to that) and it lets you concentrate on your job. Come up with a reason why they aren't around for a couple of days; food poisoning, a twisted ankle, sent to another location with a message or whatever.

SpiderBrigade
2007-03-30, 09:45 AM
So what it sounds like the situation is, is you're going to continue playing your normal character, and stand in as DM at the same time? That should really be ok, but you need to be prepared for your guy to sort of...fade into the background a little bit. Because if he's solving all the problems, it's going to be hard to not look like you're doing that on purpose. Definitely avoid any situations where the players have to "figure out" the right course of action, unless you're willing to just have your PC be very dumb that day, and not offer any help.

The topic of DMPCs when you're the regular DM is another story...it's usually very bad when you have NPCs accompanying the party, and those NPCs are stronger, better, faster etc. Or just have powerful items that the PCs envy. If I ever need to send an NPC along, he's going to be lower-level than the party, pretty gimped statwise, and generally not good for much except the one thing he's along for.

kamikasei
2007-03-30, 10:04 AM
Which of the characters is yours, and what's his role in the party? If he's the barbarian, say, and his usual M.O. is to charge into battle, rage, and hit things with his axe, you probably needn't worry about having privileged DM information. If he's the clever rogue whose job it is to scout and find traps, it may be a tad harder to walk the line between abusing your knowledge and being deliberately stupid. In that case it might be an idea to let another player you trust handle your character for the sidequest, or to somehow take him out of the frame.

RMS Oceanic
2007-03-30, 10:11 AM
I am the Fighter. My main role apart from run-in-and-blend is the moral compass and the arbitrer, as I'm Lawful Good while the rest are (chatoic) neutral. I've had to break up arguments because the rogue (unbeknownst to the party) robbed the elf ranger, while the dwarf barbarian got really agressive and drew the attention of the city guard threatening the ranger when he implied the dwarf did it, while the warmage doesn't like elves and shocking grasped the ranger once. Apart from that, I just fight, so it shouldn't be much of a problem from that perspective.

I also intend to get someone else to roll the treasure, telling me the results, so I can't be accused of rolling up a +5 keen corrosive flaming frost shock bastard sword for myself. :p

Kiero
2007-03-30, 11:22 AM
Pure lame. Just GM it, de-emphasise your character.

Clementx
2007-03-30, 11:23 AM
Replace your PC for the adventure with a cohort, or give him a cohort personality temporarily. Give your character sheet to the other PCs and let them order him, direct him in combat, and roll for him. Maintain veto power just like for any subservient NPC, but let them run your character. You have enough to worry about. Make it clear that the PCs are getting the XP for what your character does, because they are doing the work. That way, when your rogue sneaks all the way around the enemies and ambushes them, the PCs know that it is their victory, not yours.

Of course, your DM should reward you for taking over for the night, so you aren't losing anything.

Black Hand
2007-03-30, 05:25 PM
If DMing while using your own character is a concern to you, besides blending him into the background you could always set him aside but make it part of your story on why.

If you want to go with the Mithril Idea, perhaps the city garrison had a store of mithril armor & weapons that it was moving from the vaults to the garrisons where it is needed. But the moving of the precious cargo was set upon by the scheming druids and stolen. Your character perhaps on a side excursion from the party (doing mundane daily things) was at the wrong place at the wrong time, or even framed by an NPC turned traitor and he is arrested. It will be up to the other PC's to find out what happened and perhaps try find out who is responsible and where the cargo was taken.

Considering the city is under seige, the thief(s) couldn't carry that through the city gate, so it could be taken in transit through the sewers to be hidden or perhaps taken to wherever the sewers go. The clues to find your characters innocence will eventually lead them into the sewers to where they may encounter those keeping or moving the armor and their guardians...Shambling mounds would be a good druids tool for ensuring the sabotage to be successful.

If you really want to keep the Players in focus on overcoming your challenges you could set things up where your own character could be set to be executed for treason and is living on borrowed time...Mind you, you'd have to keep your fingers crossed that they succeed, especially if you make it challenging, it's a gambit but if they pull it off it would be a game they wouldn't forget.

JadedDM
2007-03-30, 05:55 PM
A DM running a PC is kind of like a boss who dates one of his employees. It can be done, sure. But for the most part, it's considered unethical and people will eventually talk about you behind your back and make veiled accusations, regardless of how on the level you are.

But, if it's just a one-time thing, you should be okay.

Matthew
2007-03-30, 06:01 PM
I probably would have your Player Character 'fade' into the background or else not use him at all.

OOTS_Rules.
2007-03-30, 06:21 PM
If you are a DMPC, always be the guy whose main purpose is to hit stuff with an axe. Casters and Rogues are needed for actual problem solving.

JadedDM
2007-03-30, 06:30 PM
If you are a DMPC, always be the guy whose main purpose is to hit stuff with an axe. Casters and Rogues are needed for actual problem solving.

Why do people always assume that fighters are idiots? Doesn't Roy break that stereotype? Just because your character specializes in hitting things with a sharp piece of metal doesn't mean that's all he is capable of.

RandomNPC
2007-03-30, 09:24 PM
i usually end up with a DMPC that everyone likes kinda like this:

DM: ok, you're a rogue, you're a fighter, and you're a sorc. ok, by the way there's a cleric following you around too.
Players: whats he do?
DM: he prepares a bunch of inflict wound spells and drops them for healing as needed. if you need something else, you need to ask him a day in advance to prepare something else, like protection from energy, or anything offensive outside of harm and inflict spells.
Players: ok, we have mage armor potions anyway.

and that's how i see a DMPC being usefull, you've got a healbot already, maybe my idea doesn't help out your group, but my group doesn't like playing cleric.

OOTS_Rules.
2007-03-30, 09:40 PM
Scouts: No. You can't snuff out your own traps for the PCs.

Casters: No. You know what spells to use for every occasion.

Healer: Possibly, but only as a healbot.

Warrior-type: Most likely, as main job is to kill. Not explicitly needed for healing, conjuring arcane spells, or scouting.

El Jaspero, the Pirate King
2007-03-30, 09:43 PM
Scouts: No. You can't snuff out your own traps for the PCs.

Check the Complete Adventurer errata; Disable Device is added to the Scout's class skill list.

ken-do-nim
2007-03-30, 09:50 PM
I've been running a bard as my DM PC in an online campaign and it is working out great.

OOTS_Rules.
2007-03-30, 10:23 PM
Check the Complete Adventurer errata; Disable Device is added to the Scout's class skill list.

What I mean is that you will end up revealling your own traps to the PCs. That is a terrible mistake.

Olethros
2007-03-31, 02:43 AM
From experience on the player side, take the night off as a player, and just DM. Get your normal GM to either run something for you to "catch up" or just slide you the xp/gold per encounter under the table for doing the work he can't that night. No matter how carefull you are or what your role in the party you run to big a risk of dismantalling a (hypothetically) working group dynamic. I've had more than one group strained by "unair DM practices," even when in reallity everything was being done to keep things fair.

Jannex
2007-03-31, 05:45 AM
As others have said, I think your best bet is either to hand your PC character sheet over to another player for the night (so that the party doesn't lose its tank) or having your character "conveniently" be somewhere else that day. I'll admit, I do like the idea that Black Hand suggested, of having your character be kidnapped or falsely imprisoned, and having the party need to rescue him (of course, only go that route if you trust the other players!), but otherwise, I'd advise against trying to DM and PC at the same time.

If you're concerned that the party will dissolve without your character there to act as their moral compass, contrive to have their side quest take place out in the wilderness somewhere, away from any sort of civilized area in which they might wreak havoc.

I've just had an idea for a wilderness adventure that amuses me terribly. I'm not sure how useful it would be to you, because I'm utterly terrible at calibrating combat encounters, but see what you think: The village where the PCs are staying currently (or a nearby village, if the current one isn't appropriate/the PCs are on the road) has been experiencing some trouble with predation on their livestock. They've lost several sheep/goats and a few cattle, some family pets, and the other day a child was frightened/attacked/dragged off/killed (depending on how dark and gritty you want to be) by a wolf. The villagers have had very little luck in tracking down these animals, and the mayor or local wealthy merchant (whose child was attacked) is willing to offer the PCs to put an end to these beasts. At this point, the PCs are probably thinking, "Pfff, a level-one quest," so be sure to make the reward tempting. Maybe he has a magic item they've been drooling over, or some such (does the party have a Bag of Holding yet?). So they go and investigate. They find, not your average pack of wolves, but an impressively large pack, led by an Awakened dire wolf with Druid levels. He hates humanoids, because of the clear-cutting that the villagers have been doing to expand their farmlands, and the fur-trapping that has claimed the lives of several of his pack, and he's trying to drive the humans away and take back their land. Third level Druid should be enough to make things interesting; gives him access to decent buffs, but doesn't shoot his CR through the roof. When you roll him up, don't forget his wolf animal companion, with +2 HD and Share Spells. Could make for a fun combat; lots and lots of trip attempts. For treasure, perhaps the wolves have stolen some "shiny things" from the humans, because their Alpha says taking them away from the humans makes them weak. Maybe the Alpha even wears a Periapt of Wisdom around his neck (because Fang needs his bonus spells).

If the dice fall right, one of the PCs might even develop a lingering fear of wolves. I'd be amused. :smallbiggrin:

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-03-31, 08:04 AM
I've been running a DMPC in my long, ongoing campaign. I made him an integral NPC, basically. He's a rogue-type that's technically working for the greater good, but has a horrible, horrible habit of putting the PC's in dangerous situations because of this and not telling them what his plans/foresight is. I ended up statting him well above the rest of the party to prevent retaliation, since his actions have nearly killed them all several times. And while I let them know later that he's actually a reformed devil, I have yet to clue them in on how he's also (since the game is gestalt) a psion that has extensively used precognitive powers to position everything correctly.

Thus, my DMPC is actually a story-based obstacle that the players have to constantly endure and has an ongoing habit of making the entire game harder. He's never fought beside them because it would wreck the balance of the game and lead to cheesy DM fiat victories.