PDA

View Full Version : singe use activated CODzilla item



elliott20
2007-03-30, 08:44 AM
My cleric in my friend's campaign has recently just managed to escape from the clutches of an ogre mage and has become sworn enemies against said ogre mage.

I've decided that the next time my cleric faces this ogre mage, he's going to be ready for him, and as such he's going to start preparing for that encounter.

Said Ogre Mage is actually quite the heroic character himself and he seems to enjoy the flashy display of force and I'm sure he would appreciate the challenge.

My current idea is go CODzilla on him but instead of doing all the casting before a fight, I would store all the spells in a seperate holy symbol that the cleric will keep inside his armor.

And when the time is right, he'll break the holy symbol, unleashing it's and go CODzilla. (This way, I save a couple rounds buffing myself) Since it's used activated, this also means all the spells will go off at the same time, which would be nice.

Spells i've picked out thus far
As a level 9 Cleric:
Divine Strenght lvl 4 x 9 x 50 x 0.75=1350
Righteous Might lvl 5 x 9 x 50 = 2250
Divine Favor lvl 2 x 9 x 50 x 0.5 = 450
Spiritual Weapon lvl 1 x 9 x 50 x 0.5 = 225

the total cost for the entire package comes to 4275 gp. if I make the item myself, I could bring it down to 2137.5 gp, but pay 171 xp for it.

I was thinking maybe I could put an alignment restriction on it to cut the cost down by another 30% but I'm not sure if the formula works that way. Also, would this effect my xp costs? hell, I'm not even sure if math is correct. In addition, I'm not sure if some of those spells choices are the most optimal choices.

Lapak
2007-03-30, 09:08 AM
I'm afraid I don't have time at the moment to double-check your figures or the mechanics, but I'd like to voice my approval of your methods. Nice sense of the dramatic, there, and I'd enjoy it if I was the DM involved, up to the point of stretching the rules if necessary to make it work.

henebry
2007-03-30, 09:19 AM
Ordinarily you can't activate more than one spell/effect with a single standard action. If I were to allow this at all, I'd give each spell/effect after the first a cost multiplier. (If you were just doing 2 spells/effects, you could do it by raw, I think, if one of the two were set as a quickened spell. But since you can only do one quickened spell per round, that can't be used to write up a 4-spell item.)

As for the alignment restriction, this strikes me as an advantage to your character, preventing the item from being usable by the bad guys if you get captured. Hence, I'd be inclined not to offer you a cost savings for giving it an alignment restriction.

ampcptlogic
2007-03-30, 09:22 AM
But how would the cleric's god view the destruction of a holy symbol? Would he allow it or require atonement afterwards?

EvilDave
2007-03-30, 10:25 AM
As soon as the PCs see it, they will want one. Are you going to allow them to craft such items as well?

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-30, 10:39 AM
Ordinarily you can't activate more than one spell/effect with a single standard action. If I were to allow this at all, I'd give each spell/effect after the first a cost multiplier. (If you were just doing 2 spells/effects, you could do it by raw, I think, if one of the two were set as a quickened spell. But since you can only do one quickened spell per round, that can't be used to write up a 4-spell item.)
Incorrect. Use activated items break those rules to all hell. Whenever the activation condition occurs X happens, where X is the effect. It doesn't matter what else happens or doesn't happen, as soon as the activation condition is met the effect goes off. And you can add multiple effects to an item and have them all have the condition "This holy symbol is broken in half".

Clementx
2007-03-30, 11:05 AM
COOL! So i just have to pour all my potions together into a big barrel and chug it all to get 10 standard actions in one! R0xr0r!111!!

That is not how pricing works. If you get more than one spell's worth of benefit, you are layering effects together, and that requires increasing the price of the additional effects.

elliott20
2007-03-30, 11:31 AM
that's why I'm posting. I'm not sure this makes a whole lot of sense and I want to know how can I go about achieving the desired effect I'm looking for. Since I'm custom making this item for my own character, which is why I want the costs to be as close to RAW as possible.

The problem is the SRD doesn't seem to cover my particular situation and so I'm not quite sure what to do with the pricing. (Just like the alignment restriction, which comes primarily from the SRD as well)

It doesn't have to be a crushed holy symbol. I could just as well make it something like "unleashes a fury white light" kind of thing. the visuals of it doesn't matter to me.

Clementx
2007-03-30, 11:44 AM
Since it is one-shot, it should have a price reduction. Take a look at an Elemental Gem (DMG p255) for an idea of what just items cost- about 1/50 of an enduring version.

The BIG THING I forgot to mention- you do not use the spell level formula!!!! That is a last resort. You instead have to price the actual effects of the spells, most of which are numerical bonuses comparable to other existing magic items. Then you get a break for it being one-shot.

At the moment, I can't find a good guideline for layering effects that apply to slotless use-activated items. So there is another modification to make here. So while I do that, look at other items like Elixirs that give you many benefits for an idea of what it should cost.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-30, 12:00 PM
COOL! So i just have to pour all my potions together into a big barrel and chug it all to get 10 standard actions in one! R0xr0r!111!!
No. It takes a standard action to drink a potion. You could make a potion like wondrous item that gave multiple effects when drunk and with the activation condition "When this liquid is drunk by someone" and all would activate at once.


That is not how pricing works. If you get more than one spell's worth of benefit, you are layering effects together, and that requires increasing the price of the additional effects.
Yes, you have to pay for additional affects but they still all activate at once at no other additional cost.


Since it is one-shot, it should have a price reduction. Take a look at an Elemental Gem (DMG p255) for an idea of what just items cost- about 1/50 of an enduring version.

There is a line in the table for 1 times use wondrous items. Its

Spell level1 caster level 50 gp
Since it is multiple similar abilities then he actually gets a price deduction. The second highest level ability is

(Spell level1 caster level 50 gp)x.75
All teh rest are as above except .5 instead of .75


The BIG THING I forgot to mention- you do not use the spell level formula!!!! That is a last resort. You instead have to price the actual effects of the spells, most of which are numerical bonuses comparable to other existing magic items. Then you get a break for it being one-shot.
Incorrect. This is a false assumption by many people. Well semi false. It depends on how you word something.

What he wants is a use activated single use item thats effect is casting a spell on him. The spells effects don't matter in the price. Now if he wants a single use item that has the same effect as the spell then he has to use the top table and pay for all the different parts.

Aren't teh item creation guidelines grand? :smallwink:


At the moment, I can't find a good guideline for layering effects that apply to slotless use-activated items. So there is another modification to make here. So while I do that, look at other items like Elixirs that give you many benefits for an idea of what it should cost.

Per the guidelines it uses the formulas I stated. Figure out the price and then post it here. Then its time to decided how much to raise or lower it by.

PinkysBrain
2007-03-30, 12:02 PM
If you are going to read use-activated as "activated as a free action linked to anything I please" then just use damage spells on a ranged weapon instead. Even allowing multiple spells to be cast with one actual action is a bad idea in general, if allowed at all it needs checks and balances and an investment of resources proportional to the benefit gained.

Using the custom item guidelines in this way is silly. You might as well go play pun-pun.

The guidelines don't work in ANY way ... they are guidelines for the DM, and the DM works however well he pleases in this instance. It's not a question of rules. Just like custom spells, custom magic items are completely and utterly by DM fiat. You might as well have said "to conquer this BBEG I am going to develop a first level long range targeted instant death spell which allows no save and no SR".

The guidelines just aren't clear enough or inspired enough to be useful as player usable rules.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-30, 12:05 PM
If you are going to read use-activated as "activated as a free action linked to anything I please" then just use damage spells on a ranged weapon instead. Even allowing multiple spells to be cast with one actual action is a bad idea in general, if allowed at all it needs checks and balances and an investment of resources proportional to the benefit gained.

Using the custom item guidelines in this way is silly. You might as well go play pun-pun.
Oh its entirely silly.

Its still what the guidelines say.

Its what allows the DD/WoB chain effect items that can kill every signal person on the planet in 6 seconds.


Why do you think most people modify those guidelines greatly if they even allow custom magic items?

elliott20
2007-03-30, 12:11 PM
it's wierd. I've been here for a while now, I've heard numerous references to the term Pun-pun, but I have never heard anyone actually say what a pun-pun is. still, the point is not so that I break the game. I'm really not trying to do that. I would like to get some method of getting my buffs in quickly in that one item for dramatic flare. but beyond that I don't care much about the pricing. I'm more than willing to pay extra GP if the GM think that would make it more balanced. (who has not yet gotten back to me about it)

Lord Iames Osari
2007-03-30, 12:22 PM
This is Pun-Pun (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=491801), the most powerful character ever.

PinkysBrain
2007-03-30, 12:24 PM
Why do you think most people modify those guidelines greatly if they even allow custom magic items?
It's not a question of allowing custom magic items, or a question of changing the guidelines ... if a DM allows them that still does not make them rules in the common sense, they are not authoritative in any way. They are what the term guidelines suggest they are. Custom magic items are completely and utterly by DM fiat, their existence, their pricing, their everything.

The DD/WoB chain effect items whatever they are are no different from a self developed spell which destroys everyone in the world in that respect ... it's all by DM fiat, not by the RAW.

Allowing players to use custom magic item guidelines as is, without the DM being the final one to set the price completely by his own standards ... now THAT is a houserule, and one of the most uninspired ones I know.

elliott20
2007-03-30, 12:24 PM
bah, of course it's on a site that I can't reach at work. figures.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-30, 12:33 PM
It's not a question of allowing custom magic items, or a question of changing the guidelines ... if a DM allows them that still does not make them rules in the common sense, they are not authoritative in any way. They are what the term guidelines suggest they are. Custom magic items are completely and utterly by DM fiat, their existence, their pricing, their everything.

The DD/WoB chain effect items whatever they are are no different from a self developed spell which destroys everyone in the world in that respect ... it's all by DM fiat, not by the RAW.

Allowing players to use custom magic item guidelines as is, without the DM being the final one to set the price completely by his own standards ... now THAT is a houserule, and one of the most uninspired ones I know.
Thats what I said. They are rarely allowed and even if allowed they rarely follow the guidelines and for good reason. I was responding to someone saying that the guidelines actually say something different.

PinkysBrain
2007-03-30, 12:46 PM
I would like to get some method of getting my buffs in quickly in that one item for dramatic flare.
Do you want to break the game to do it? Getting free actions cast spells for almost no resource investment does that.

Personally I don't like to allow very high level items to be used by low level characters, cause things get a little weird that way ... but how I would design this is by using temporal acceleration. Three standard action cast buffs is the most I would allow, if you want more use quicken.

First off single use use activated ML 19 temporal acceleration (maybe a 25%-40% discount on this one if you can only use it to activate the buffs and nothing else). I price it as a 10th level spell since IMO augmentation does the equivalent of increasing spell level ... so 10 x 19 x 50.

No multiple similar abilities discounts, that is for effects which partly overlap and which don't activate all at once.

Divine Power, 4 x 9 x 50
Righteous Might lvl 5 x 9 x 50
Divine Favor lvl 2 x 9 x 50
Spiritual Weapon lvl 5 x 9 x 50 (quickened)

Grand total, 16.7K gp. Oh, and you wouldn't be able to create it without the help of a very high level psion.

Gamebird
2007-03-30, 12:52 PM
it's wierd. I've been here for a while now, I've heard numerous references to the term Pun-pun, but I have never heard anyone actually say what a pun-pun is.

The link leads to the Wizards of the Coast character optimization boards. Pun-pun is a kobold sorcerer. Though abuse of the Polymorph chain of spells (and a viper familiar, I believe), you can take a reptilian type character (like a kobold, or a viper) and gain every power, feat, spell, etc. in the game, as well as raising your statistics, skills and saves as high as you wish. If you pick the right powers, then you can use Time Stop to do this, meaning that you achieve god-hood one action after starting.

It's pretty straight forward, but requires use of non-core stuff. But there's no deviation from the rules as written in that non-core stuff. The writers apparently never imagined someone would use the abilities to their logical limit.


still, the point is not so that I break the game. I'm really not trying to do that. I would like to get some method of getting my buffs in quickly in that one item for dramatic flare.

I think you are confusing "dramatic flare" with "unfair advantage" (also known as breaking the game). CODzilla, by its very nature, is game-breaking. The whole reason it is called CODzilla is because a well-built, core Cleric Or Druid will trample the DM's game world like godZILLA in Tokyo.

Just admit it. You want to trample this ogre-mage in an unfair way, activating all your best spells without having to bother casting them. Heck, if you're going to do that, why not incorporate a Fly, Haste and Stoneskin on yourself and some sort of Dispel Magic or Disjunction on the ogre-mage? You could make dozens of these little gems and give them to the party members (or just carry them yourself). Any time anyone threatens you, activate one and turn into CODzilla, as you mentioned.

I can just imagine the looks on the other player's faces when they realize that at any time, with a single action, you can gain the benefit of 4 or more of the buffest cleric spells out there. You really ought to add Greater Magic Weapon too.

elliott20
2007-03-30, 01:16 PM
Actually, I'm just after the whole visual of it. If this whole thing seems like that big of a deal and that it can't be done, I'll just drop all the other buffs and keep a righteous might spell alone. (since I'm assuming that's the one that will have the most dramatic visual difference.)

If I wanted strategies as to how to crush the ogre mage, I would have asked exactly for that. (though, you did just remind me of something fairly important... the ogre mage does have fly... I need to think of how to deal with that...)

Tack122
2007-03-30, 01:37 PM
If the mage is a significant enough enemy you could talk to your GM and convince him to allow you the item through divine intervention.
(Spend a week or three in meditation, donate a decent sum of money to the church ect.)

Clementx
2007-03-30, 02:05 PM
Ok, going over the rules again...

Use the single-use-activated line for the spell for each as a baseline. I was wrong about it EXCEPT that you don't get is discount. DMG p282- Multiple Different Abilities for an item that does not take up a slot- no discount. If you consider the effects similar, you get a discount. They are different spells granting you a wide variety of effects and bonuses- they are not similar. Now you are half-way done (or rather, you have calculated your last-resort price).

Now the real pricing begins. This is where you start looking at comparable items and the utility of the item, as per the DMG instructions. Multiple buffs at one time is certainly useful, in the same way the Invisibility at will is useful and jacks the price of its Ring up to 30k.

ReluctantDragon
2007-03-30, 02:50 PM
How about a 1 use activated time stop? You get 4 rounds to buff, which if you use a moderate amount of Quicken, should allow plenty of time for you to buff.

Maybe? Just struck me off the top of my head.

martyboy74
2007-03-30, 02:55 PM
A scroll of Time Stop only costs 3,825 gold, which is cheaper than the holy symbol potion thingy (although not by much). However, seeing as you could possibly only get 2 rounds to buff yourself, you'd want at least two, which would put above the price of the holy symbol thing.

\/ If he's fighting an Ogre Mage, he probably can't cast time stop. How else would he get it?

PinkysBrain
2007-03-30, 03:04 PM
Single use spell completion items are significantly cheaper than use activated items ... being a cleric he can probably not use the scroll though.

Jasdoif
2007-03-30, 03:46 PM
Hmm, you're allowing multiple spell effects from a single item...should definitely be more expensive. Also, I'm going to question some of your spell choices, as I don't have a Divine Strength listed (unless you mean divine power) and Spiritual Weapon I see as a second-level spell, not first-level; meanwhile Divine Favor is first, not second. Also, Spiritual Weapon isn't strictly a buff, it doesn't really seem to fit except that it's a cleric spell.

So personally, I'd calculate something like this, using a 150% multipler for each lower level ability:

Righteous Might: 5 * 9 * 50 * 100%: 2250
Divine Power: 4 * 9 * 50 * 150%: 2700
Owl's Wisdom: 2 * 9 * 50 * 225%: 2025
Divine Favor: 1 * 9 * 50 * 337.5%: 1518.75

Round up the total a tiny tad to get a clean number...8,500gp. To make, 4,250gp and 340XP.

This is just my opinion on how to do it somewhat fairly, though.

(As a point of interest, the 100%, 150%, 225% thing fits the price of staff of the woodlands (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/staffs.htm#woodlands) pretty closely, with its properties as a staff, a use-activated spell ability and a weapon.)

daggaz
2007-03-30, 03:48 PM
Flair is cool ideas/words/concepts that make the story more exciting and alive. Flair does not have immediate, primary mechanical effects on your character. If it has this, then it is no longer just flair.

Your item has an immediate, mechanical effect on your character, which must be construed as its primary purpose, as well. Not only this, but the effect is a HUGE advantage, as well, and if it were incorporated into the game to much extent, the system would just collapse.

I would slap such a huge price on an item like this, that it would never be worth it..... actually, I would just flat out ban this, because otherwise characters would be tempted to use it at the end of a campaign, when their final wealth doesnt really matter anymore anyways.

Wizard: I make rod, that when pointed at somebody and given the command InstaCheese, instantly releases every save or die/suck spell that I have in my spell list on that person.

elliott20
2007-03-30, 04:12 PM
Jasdoif, you're right about the spell name. I meant to put down Divine Power, not divine strength (which is a divine feat in CW). And yeah, I swapped the spiritual weapon and divine favor by accident.

the ogre mage in question has always been a rather flashy and showy type of villain. And one of the things that has really marred our interaction is the fact that up to this point, he has yet to take my character a very serious threat and would voluntarily handicap himself to make things fun for him. (Of course he would, I was only 3rd level when it happened.)

And so, in order for him to take my challenge seriously, I need some kind of visual sign that shows him how my cleric's powers now are rivalling his.

Hence all the buffing.

So from what you guys are saying, I have two possible ways of doing this:

1) do the 150% price rule.

or

2) just stick to buffing myself through the rounds one by one. Hold the Righteous Might spell until I actually challenge him, and use the spell to signal him that I'm ready for him. So depending upon how the encounter plays out, rightoues might could be my first spell or it could be my last spell.

I'm sensing most people here are going with option 2.

Jasdoif
2007-03-30, 05:14 PM
Yeah, casting them one at a time is probably the least controversial way to go.

Depending on how much time you have (and how amenable your DM is), you might consider doing some spell research, perhaps you could research a 5th or 6th level spell that has the effects of both divine power and divine favor at the same time.

In a slightly related note, what are your domains? If you've got Fire or Sun, fire shield (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireShield.htm) would be an excellent flashy display, particularly since the ogre mage's regeneration doesn't protect against fire and its cone of cold will be halved/negated if you use the warm version of the shield.

elliott20
2007-03-30, 05:18 PM
protection and healing were my chosen domains.

Yeah, not really a lot of flashy choices there.

PinkysBrain
2007-03-30, 09:23 PM
1) do the 150% price rule.
More like 1500%. Taking the discount wasn't the problem, creating extra actions out of thin air was the problem. Actions are the most valuable resource available to a D&D character ... yet you price them at 0 gp.

Gamebird
2007-04-01, 01:09 AM
Get a magic item that causes you to radiate flashy, glowy light (a variant of Faerie Fire or Dancing Lights) whenever you cast a spell, with the light being noticeably brighter the higher level the spell is.

That's flashy and doesn't give your character a mechanical advantage.