feycraft shadow silk hide armor

[NeoPhoenix0]

A while back i made a concept for a noctumancer (tome of magic) and made some armor for her. Feycraft shadowsilk hide armor. I like it cause this character has really high dex and this has just enough (maybe a little more than enough can't remember at the moment.) The character also has a rediculous hide check so i love the concept. they should also always be in shadowy illumination or have easy access to it unless things have gone horribly wrong so there would be 0% arcane spell failure. The issue comes the fact that this is like wearing tissue paper. a poke with a toothpick might be enough to break it as it has 1 hp and no hardness, so it should only be used if it is enchanted.

(TL;DR) I want to know, is there a way besides just basic armor bonus enchantment to increase the hp and/or hardness of feycraft shadowsilk hide armor without sacrificing bonus dex and spell failure?

[heavyfuel]

Crystal of Adamant Armor from MiC Pg 24. Just note that worn armor can't be sundered, so this shouldn't come up often, if ever

[sleepyphoenixx]

Matter Manipulation (Psion 8) can increase hardness by up to 5 and is instantaneous. It also increases HP.
Follow that up with Augment Object (Clr, Drd, Wiz 3) from the Stronghold Builders Guidebook to double hardness and HP for 1day/level

[Nevershutup]

Hardness is 5th or 6th level Sorc/Wiz spell, that increases an object's harndess by one. It is in the Spell Compendium.

[sideswipe]

Hardness is 5th or 6th level Sorc/Wiz spell, that increases an object's harndess by one. It is in the Spell Compendium.

is that permanent?

[Crake]

is that permanent?

i would hope so, for a 5/6th level spell and only 1 point

[Fenryr]

i would hope so, for a 5/6th level spell and only 1 point

It is. For every two caster levels add 1 to the Hardness. HP is the same, tho.

[atemu1234]

FYI, the Psion one stacks with itself (it's untyped), so with 5 consecutive castings, it could be tougher than Adamantine.

[SiuiS]

A while back i made a concept for a noctumancer (tome of magic) and made some armor for her. Feycraft shadowsilk hide armor. I like it cause this character has really high dex and this has just enough (maybe a little more than enough can't remember at the moment.) The character also has a rediculous hide check so i love the concept. they should also always be in shadowy illumination or have easy access to it unless things have gone horribly wrong so there would be 0% arcane spell failure. The issue comes the fact that this is like wearing tissue paper. a poke with a toothpick might be enough to break it as it has 1 hp and no hardness, so it should only be used if it is enchanted.

(TL;DR) I want to know, is there a way besides just basic armor bonus enchantment to increase the hp and/or hardness of feycraft shadowsilk hide armor without sacrificing bonus dex and spell failure?

There's a spell somewhere that bumps hardness and hp, but I think the spell compendium one overwrites it.


FYI, the Psion one stacks with itself (it's untyped), so with 5 consecutive castings, it could be tougher than Adamantine.

Mm. I believe getting an I typed bonus from the same source gets iffy. I don't have a book on me but this sounds like one of those things covered by the 'don't let your players bank on technicalities' rules.

[atemu1234]

There's a spell somewhere that bumps hardness and hp, but I think the spell compendium one overwrites it.



Mm. I believe getting an I typed bonus from the same source gets iffy. I don't have a book on me but this sounds like one of those things covered by the 'don't let your players bank on technicalities' rules.

Meh, it's not that bad a thing. Even applied to objects of importance, it's not that good, as a lot of things bypass hardness altogether.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Thanks everyone for the replies


Crystal of Adamant Armor from MiC Pg 24. Just note that worn armor can't be sundered, so this shouldn't come up often, if ever

I am a very cautious player about odd things at times. It is quite funny when my DM throws something completely unexpected at us that i can just ignore because i am totally prepared for it.

Also, i like the crystal. It is simple.


Hardness is 5th or 6th level Sorc/Wiz spell, that increases an object's harndess by one. It is in the Spell Compendium.

Might be a good spell to get a scroll for or pay a wizard to cast.


Matter Manipulation (Psion 8) can increase hardness by up to 5 and is instantaneous. It also increases HP.
Follow that up with Augment Object (Clr, Drd, Wiz 3) from the Stronghold Builders Guidebook to double hardness and HP for 1day/level

not likely to use matter manipulation because i generally don't like psionics but i will keep it in mind. The spell is something that i'm more likely to use, maybe get an eternal wand at a higher level.


FYI, the Psion one stacks with itself (it's untyped), so with 5 consecutive castings, it could be tougher than Adamantine.

The psion thing does not stack with itself. Since it is that same source it doesn't matter if the bonus is untyped you only benefit from the strongest version on the object.

[Darrin]

Dwarfcraft template (Races of Stone) can increase HP/hardness, but I don't recall if it can be combined with feycraft. A half-fey dwarf could probably do it.

[SiuiS]

Meh, it's not that bad a thing. Even applied to objects of importance, it's not that good, as a lot of things bypass hardness altogether.

It's a matter of verisimilitude. There's a reason things harder than Adamantine are rare. There's a reason making things harder than Adamantine magically is rare. If we get into this weird "everything past this point ignores hardness of everything below this point" generalizations then why is Adamantine a thing? It's less like some mythic metal and more like bronze weaponry. Hard and sharp and only inferior to steel due to ease of fabrication.


Dwarfcraft template (Races of Stone) can increase HP/hardness, but I don't recall if it can be combined with feycraft. A half-fey dwarf could probably do it.

A fey dwarf or a dwarf helping a fey can.

[tyckspoon]

The psion thing does not stack with itself. Since it is that same source it doesn't matter if the bonus is untyped you only benefit from the strongest version on the object.

I don't think it's a bonus in the sense the stacking limits care about, but that's a huge can of worms argument. It is unambiguously Instantaneous duration, however, so multiple effects never enters into consideration at all. There are never multiple Matter Manipulations operating on the item. You just change the objects' hardness and then you change it again.

Now, I personally think the intent of the power is to cap at +5 regardless, but I don't think an adequately compelling RAW argument can be made for that. (I would also make it lower level and remove the XP cost, because it's stupidly expensive for what it does.)

[SiuiS]

On the contrary, given that it's permanent and stackable, some measure of mitigation is good. Adamantine and obdurium have a clause saying that weapons made of them ignore the hardness of any material with lower hardness than their own.

After three six castings and and a minor enchantment, an Adamantine weapon can cut artifacts in half. You know, the lost ancient metal of the illithids? That's crazy. A literally unstoppable weapon is something that deserves a cost, even if it's so far not necessary to ever have more than adamantine' sown numbers.


*


Magic items gain one hardness and five hit points per plus of enchantment. That might also be helpful. +5 armor has +5 hardness and +25 hit points.

[DrMotives]

Dwarfcraft template (Races of Stone) can increase HP/hardness, but I don't recall if it can be combined with feycraft. A half-fey dwarf could probably do it.

Sure, a half-fey dwarf could use both templates, paid for individually, but the dwarfcraft template can only be added to metal or stone items, not shadow silk.

[NeoPhoenix0]

I don't think it's a bonus in the sense the stacking limits care about, but that's a huge can of worms argument. It is unambiguously Instantaneous duration, however, so multiple effects never enters into consideration at all. There are never multiple Matter Manipulations operating on the item. You just change the objects' hardness and then you change it again.

Now, I personally think the intent of the power is to cap at +5 regardless, but I don't think an adequately compelling RAW argument can be made for that. (I would also make it lower level and remove the XP cost, because it's stupidly expensive for what it does.)

i know it's been a few days since i last checked and the thread is pretty much over but i want to consider something. i didn't realize it was instantaneous, that definitely makes it more complicated. I think the RAW is ambiguous. it does not clearly define whether the original hardness is the hardness of the object right before manifestation or whether it is the base hardness of the object.

[Tarlek Flamehai]

From the SRD

"You can increase or decrease an object’s hardness by up to 5 from its original hardness"..."Even hardening adamantine to 25 is possible."

[SiuiS]

From the SRD

"You can increase or decrease an object’s hardness by up to 5 from its original hardness"..."Even hardening adamantine to 25 is possible."

The d20srd dot org website includes non system reference document material, though, doesn't it?

[Chronos]

Doesn't shadow silk self-repair when in shadowy areas?

[NeoPhoenix0]

Doesn't shadow silk self-repair when in shadowy areas?

It does repair but only if it wasn't reduced to 0 hp. The issue starts with mundane feycraft shadow silk hide as 1 hp and 0 hardness. thankfully making it +1 already helps a lot as each armor enhancement bonus point adds 2 hardness and 10 hp.

[Tarlek Flamehai]

The d20srd dot org website includes non system reference document material, though, doesn't it?

http://www.d20srd.org/faq.htm

"This site currently contains content from all sourcebooks published by Wizards of the Coast that contain open content. This includes open content from the following books published in the official d20 SRD:

Player's Handbook
Dungeon Master's Guide
Monster Manual
Epic Level Handbook
Deities and Demigods
Expanded Psionics Handbook
In addition, the following open game content has also been included:

Razor Boar and Scorpionfolk from Monster Manual II
"Variant Rules" from Unearthed Arcana"

While the website does not say it, it appears that most of the Errata for the above source material has been applied too.

Another "SRD" website, the D&D Wiki is a badly organized, IMO, compilation of OGL and homebrew material. Making it difficult to browse for RAW only information.

[geekintheground]

as for the "same source untyped bonus", it most certainly does stack. inherent bonuses from wish stack, so why wouldnt that?

[sleepyphoenixx]

as for the "same source untyped bonus", it most certainly does stack. inherent bonuses from wish stack, so why wouldnt that?

Inherent bonuses aren't untyped. Their inherent. They also explicitly mention that they stack up to +5, and specific trumps general.
That doesn't mean other bonuses act the same way, and it doesn't turn inherent bonuses into an argument why they should.

[geekintheground]

Inherent bonuses aren't untyped. Their inherent. They also explicitly mention that they stack up to +5, and specific trumps general.
That doesn't mean other bonuses act the same way, and it doesn't turn inherent bonuses into an argument why they should.

wow, major mis-remember on my part. sorry about that... i forgot wish specifically called out its stacking. my thoughts were "if these typed bonuses stack in this situation, certainly UNTYPED would stack in a similar situation". thatll teach me to post before double checking my memory XD

[SiuiS]

as for the "same source untyped bonus", it most certainly does stack. inherent bonuses from wish stack, so why wouldnt that?


wow, major mis-remember on my part. sorry about that... i forgot wish specifically called out its stacking. my thoughts were "if these typed bonuses stack in this situation, certainly UNTYPED would stack in a similar situation". thatll teach me to post before double checking my memory XD

All good.

I think it's something that should be decided game to game, myself.

[Coidzor]

Dwarfcraft, unlike githcraft or feycraft, doesn't require anything on the part of the creator, IIRC. Feycraft requires being fey or training from fey, IIRC, and the same goes for githcraft. So, y'know, a fey that was enslaved by the gith at one point or worked for them and then left their service would be able to do both, technically, possibly even on the same item

As mentioned though, dwarfcraft is limited in what items it can be applied to rather than who or what the creator may be..

[Chronos]

Inherent bonuses don't stack, anyway. They just have a special rule that allows you to get a single large inherent bonus, instead of a small one. That is to say, you're not using a Wish for a +1 bonus, and then using another Wish for another +1 bonus: You're using two Wishes to get a +2 bonus.

[DrMotives]

Double checking those numbers, this whole thread was in error. Feycrafted shadowsilk armor has 5 hp & a hardness of 1, not 1 hp & hardness 5. It's 10 hp hardness 1 for shadowsilk, and the template reduces hp by only 5, and while it lowers hardness by 1, it has a minimum 1, not 0. Still kinda fragile, but not about to be shredded by a stiff wind anymore.

[Curmudgeon]

Inherent bonuses don't stack, anyway. They just have a special rule that allows you to get a single large inherent bonus, instead of a small one. That is to say, you're not using a Wish for a +1 bonus, and then using another Wish for another +1 bonus: You're using two Wishes to get a +2 bonus.
Wish has that restriction, but Miracle does not: you can use Miracle to ask to have your inherent bonus increased from +1 to +2. These two spells are mostly (not exactly) equivalent in capabilities. Either one can be used to create a Manual or Tome which will grant inherent bonuses.

[Tarlek Flamehai]

Dwarfcraft can only be applied to metal and maybe stone. Hide is not eligible.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Double checking those numbers, this whole thread was in error. Feycrafted shadowsilk armor has 5 hp & a hardness of 1, not 1 hp & hardness 5. It's 10 hp hardness 1 for shadowsilk, and the template reduces hp by only 5, and while it lowers hardness by 1, it has a minimum 1, not 0. Still kinda fragile, but not about to be shredded by a stiff wind anymore.

you're right about the hp, just checked my book, however the book says it is minimum 0 for hardness. and i couldn't find any official errata for the DMG 2 so i guess the end result is 5 hp, 0 hardness. still glad it can't be destroyed by a toothpick, unless the toothpick is wielded by a fighter or something.

[Tarlek Flamehai]

Have you considered Shadowsilk Spidersilk armor? Figuring out the cost might be a pain, but you would have +3 Armor Bonus +10 Max DEX Bonus, 0 AC Penalty, 10% ACF (0% in shadow), +2 bonus to Hide and Move Silently, Hardness 1, 10 Hit Points, and armor regenerates in shadows.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Have you considered Shadowsilk Spidersilk armor? Figuring out the cost might be a pain, but you would have +3 Armor Bonus +10 Max DEX Bonus, 0 AC Penalty, 10% ACF (0% in shadow), +2 bonus to Hide and Move Silently, Hardness 1, 10 Hit Points, and armor regenerates in shadows.

... I like the way you think.

[Tarlek Flamehai]

... I like the way you think.

De nada. I have an NPC outfitted with it. :smallsmile: