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Talakeal
2014-12-27, 04:22 PM
Ok, so I am planning on advancing the timeline of my campaign world by a couple of centuries for my next game.

The world has a single continent spanning empire and a technology level equivalent to mid 19th century earth.

Obviously trains and telegraphs are going to be essential for keeping the empire running, and I am planning on having vast networks of both.

The problem is, the majority of the land is still wilderness inhabited by all sorts of monsters, savages, and outlaws.

How would one go about protecting and maintaining railroad tracks (and to a lesser extent telegraph lines) in such a setting? It seems like sabotaging train tracks would become an incredibly powerful tool for raiders, just crash a train and then go about looting freely, and it has the added perk of being hard to track down until well after the fact. If you somehow found out which trains were transporting important political figures, vital resources, large amounts of money (say from a tax collector), or even military forces you could really do some damage to the government without ever putting yourself in direct danger.

Calen
2014-12-27, 04:49 PM
I would suggest some research on trains during the American Civil War. Raiders on both sides did make aggressive use of blowing up train tracks, burning bridges and other forms of mayhem. They also targeted the telegraph wires that ran alongside the trains. The solution was armed trains. Putting your tech equivalent of a cannon, couple of gatling guns, or a platoon of soldiers will crimp any raiders style.

Radar
2014-12-27, 04:49 PM
The situation is quite similar to that of 19th century North America. I'm not that versed in history, but it seems as an obvious direction of research.

First of all, the trains themselves need to be well protected and have all the necessary equipment to repair tracks if they encounter some problems on the way.

Second of, you need some train depots once in a while. If there is no settlement in the area, you build one (even if it's just a fortified house for less then 10 people). All the depots are connected with telegraph lines going along the tracks, so the trains can send and recieve messeges as well.

You can't protect everything, but if you set up procedures for frequent checkups (basicaly neighbouring depots sending a coded ping to each other and trains on the way), you will know about any tamperings rather soon. Then the heavy cavalery does the talking.

GloatingSwine
2014-12-27, 07:39 PM
I would suggest some research on trains during the American Civil War. Raiders on both sides did make aggressive use of blowing up train tracks, burning bridges and other forms of mayhem. They also targeted the telegraph wires that ran alongside the trains. The solution was armed trains. Putting your tech equivalent of a cannon, couple of gatling guns, or a platoon of soldiers will crimp any raiders style.

Only if they attack the trains to try and get at what's in them, rather than just stopping or delaying them from going somewhere else (like they're cutting the resupply from one of your depots so they can attack it).

It's also worth reading about the Arab Revolt of 1916-1918 and particularly the attacks on the Hejaz Railroad, which was a significant deciding factor in the final fate of the Ottoman empire. Because your enemy can't protect everywhere, but a guerilla army can attack anywhere, your enemy is overstretched and effectively can protect nothing.


Granted mobility, security (in the form of denying targets to the enemy), time, and doctrine (the idea to convert every subject to friendliness), victory will rest with the insurgents, for the algebraical factors are in the end decisive, and against them perfections of means and spirit struggle quite in vain.

Solaris
2014-12-27, 08:47 PM
Make it in the inhabitants' best interest to not destroy train tracks - if they destroy 'em, they get to deal with a whole mess o' troops who come in and conduct what's euphemistically known as a 'punitive expedition'. If they don't destroy 'em, then they get to trade for a whole mess o' manufactured goods that make their lives a whole lot easier.

That won't eliminate the threat, but it will reduce it.

SiuiS
2014-12-28, 02:24 AM
Ok, so I am planning on advancing the timeline of my campaign world by a couple of centuries for my next game.

The world has a single continent spanning empire and a technology level equivalent to mid 19th century earth.

Obviously trains and telegraphs are going to be essential for keeping the empire running, and I am planning on having vast networks of both.

The problem is, the majority of the land is still wilderness inhabited by all sorts of monsters, savages, and outlaws.

How would one go about protecting and maintaining railroad tracks (and to a lesser extent telegraph lines) in such a setting? It seems like sabotaging train tracks would become an incredibly powerful tool for raiders, just crash a train and then go about looting freely, and it has the added perk of being hard to track down until well after the fact. If you somehow found out which trains were transporting important political figures, vital resources, large amounts of money (say from a tax collector), or even military forces you could really do some damage to the government without ever putting yourself in direct danger.

There's an entire game based around this context, called something like Ghostlines. Check that out.

Engines that are themselves golems, able to lift up on their feet when necessary for rough terrain?

Engines without singular steam drives and instead each car possessing a robotic horse, able to leap damaged track with ease?

Various levels of security starting with telegraphic tracks, signals sent down that, if not recieved properly, have trains delayed until the problem is sorted? This makes attacking the train/track as it arrives the only recourse instead of sabotaging the track and waiting, and the. You just have various levels of kick ass NPC on each really important train (and a random cart full of technicians, engineers and artificers to make repairs out in the wild).

Mr.Sandman
2014-12-28, 06:43 AM
What is the magic level of the setting? If a certain area of track is often subject to attack I could see the government shelling out for Force Tracks if available.

The Glyphstone
2014-12-28, 07:01 AM
I was not expecting this thread to be about literal train tracks...

Berenger
2014-12-28, 08:54 AM
Yeah, I'd rather have expected the Spanish Inquisition, too.

This old thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?315294-How-would-you-defend-this-building) discusses the defense of railroad stations in a similar setting. Fortified stations may be a sensible first step in defending the tracks themselves.

Talakeal
2014-12-28, 04:35 PM
It is a fairly low magic world, making flying trains, or self repairing tracks, or indistructable / intangible tracks is simply not feasible on a large scale.

Thanks for the link to the old thread, I will check it out.

The Glyphstone
2014-12-28, 07:35 PM
If the wilderness is infested with monsters and savages and bandits...why is the government going to such expense to build these train routes? If it's just territorial expansion, like how the American West was claimed on the back of the railroads, they should be bringing civilization with them - the only points of vulnerability against the monsters or bandits would be at the frontiers. If it's to connect two settlements/territories at A and B, how did they create those settlements pre-Trains, and what do trains offer over the alternative that's worth the apparently horrendous expense of building, protecting, and rebuilding them?

Trains for the sake of trains doesn't get you very far. Think about the Cause with trains as an Effect, and the Effect with trains as a Cause, and you'll answer a lot of your own questions.

Talakeal
2014-12-28, 07:59 PM
If the wilderness is infested with monsters and savages and bandits...why is the government going to such expense to build these train routes? If it's just territorial expansion, like how the American West was claimed on the back of the railroads, they should be bringing civilization with them - the only points of vulnerability against the monsters or bandits would be at the frontiers. If it's to connect two settlements/territories at A and B, how did they create those settlements pre-Trains, and what do trains offer over the alternative that's worth the apparently horrendous expense of building, protecting, and rebuilding them?

Trains for the sake of trains doesn't get you very far. Think about the Cause with trains as an Effect, and the Effect with trains as a Cause, and you'll answer a lot of your own questions.

The whole story is rather long and would probably kill the thread if I typed it all out.

The short answer is Primarily through conquest of existing kingdoms.

Jay R
2014-12-28, 08:01 PM
Once the technological level is high enough to create trains, you are clearly in an industrial age, and change is very rapid. The analogy to the American west is a perfect one. 200 years later, the land is completely settles and civilized, and we are deep into an electronic age, with cell phones, space flight, etc.

GloatingSwine
2014-12-28, 08:14 PM
Then definitely read about the construction and attacks on the Hejaz Railway, which was built in part to strengthen the occupation of Arab lands by the Ottoman empire. It's a more similar setting than the American west or civil war, (though it being first world war it's probably later in the industrial age than you're working on)

It's a really good object lesson on the things that have been tried to defend a railway against a determined attacker or saboteur, and how they failed, and on how to design and construct a guerilla campaign for use in a setting like that.

veti
2014-12-28, 08:19 PM
Which came first - the empire, or the railways?

If the empire, how did it build itself pre-railways? Whatever the answer to that is, will probably answer your question. It must have maintained earlier lines of communication, which would have been significantly harder to defend. By contrast, a train can carry as much weight as it needs to; if bandits are the threat you're worried about, it's a simple matter to bolt on another carriage and fill it with soldiers.

Conversely, if the railways are the means by which the empire built itself, then that probably answers your question in a different way. Railways spread influence wherever they go. People who live near them, learn to love them (i.e. use them for their business) - or move away, making room for those who do love them.

Telegraphs are vulnerable - easy to attack, basically impossible to toughen. But you can build redundancy into the network (indeed, the term "network" itself sort of implies that), such that most places can't be cut off with a single snip - it'd take a co-ordinated effort across quite a wide area to really isolate a major target. And even with 19th century technology, it's perfectly feasible to detect quickly when a line has been cut, and figure out, quite quickly, roughly where it's been cut.

Who are these "raiders" you're worried about? Are they just common bandits, or do they have some political motivation and central co-ordination?

Talakeal
2014-12-28, 08:44 PM
Which came first - the empire, or the railways?

If the empire, how did it build itself pre-railways? Whatever the answer to that is, will probably answer your question. It must have maintained earlier lines of communication, which would have been significantly harder to defend. By contrast, a train can carry as much weight as it needs to; if bandits are the threat you're worried about, it's a simple matter to bolt on another carriage and fill it with soldiers.

Conversely, if the railways are the means by which the empire built itself, then that probably answers your question in a different way. Railways spread influence wherever they go. People who live near them, learn to love them (i.e. use them for their business) - or move away, making room for those who do love them.

Telegraphs are vulnerable - easy to attack, basically impossible to toughen. But you can build redundancy into the network (indeed, the term "network" itself sort of implies that), such that most places can't be cut off with a single snip - it'd take a co-ordinated effort across quite a wide area to really isolate a major target. And even with 19th century technology, it's perfectly feasible to detect quickly when a line has been cut, and figure out, quite quickly, roughly where it's been cut.

Who are these "raiders" you're worried about? Are they just common bandits, or do they have some political motivation and central co-ordination?


The Empire came first. Basically the PCs spent the last campaign unifying various nations and city states into a single continent spanning Empire in the wake of a global Cataclysm.

The wilderness in question is more like Skull Island than the American West for the most part. It is home to all sorts of enemies and outlaws, including your typical "restless natives", Fey tricksters, demon cults, bandits, outlaws, giants and monstrous humanoids, and even dragons, tarrasques, and their ilk. Holding it all together is a monumental task, but protecting rail lines is key imho.

Mr Beer
2014-12-28, 09:45 PM
I second the poster who said read up on the Civil War, the respective armies ended up with gangs of soldiers who were effectively railway demolition experts. They would break up the rails, heat the girders red-hot with bonfires and then wrap them around posts to ruin them. Plus dig up embankments etc.

You should also read Railsea by China Mieville because it's specifically about a railroad in a nearly Victorian tech-level world and also because it's awesome. Any GM would find a whole bunch of ideas worth stealing to enrich any railway related adventure.

But yeah basically fortified depots and rapid response military units would be the solution to predation. I guess the railroad guys have a tech advantage? So a bunch of cavalry quickly turning up with rifles and good quality steel armour and weapons would be a big problem for iron age marauders. They might even have light cannon on wagons.

Blimps and telegraphs are both Victorian level tech and the advantages of such rapid communication should not be underestimated.

Low grade magic might be used to warn intruders against entering prohibited areas, communicate the threat to headquarters and maybe trigger trap defences.

Stellar_Magic
2014-12-28, 10:07 PM
In addition to protective detachments of soldiers along the rail line, fortified stations, and so forth... Arm the trains.

There's nothing stopping the train from having a couple cars with wrought iron plating and a couple cannons... perhaps even hand cranked gatling guns if we're going for the late 19th century technologically.

The Glyphstone
2014-12-28, 10:47 PM
...how do 'low magic world' and 'tarrasques, plural' intermesh successfully?:smallconfused:

Talakeal
2014-12-28, 11:59 PM
...how do 'low magic world' and 'tarrasques, plural' intermesh successfully?:smallconfused:

Lots of big monsters. Not so many people capable of handling them. They are more like forces of nature rather than monsters to be fought.


I am not necessarily worry about defending the trains from direct attack, that shouldn't be too hard unless it is a coordinated ambush out in the wilderness. I am more worried about sabotage to the tracks when no one is looking.

The best solution I have seen so far is probably sending smaller cars ahead to warn of breaks in the tracks, though that still leaves some communication problems.

Demidos
2014-12-29, 04:09 AM
If they have electricity, perhaps a sort of alarm system could be set up using wire loops -- the loops extend over varying areas of the tracks, and they feed into a bank of lightbulbs. If the line is unbroken, then the lightbulbs are on, everything is going well. If the line is broken, the lightbulb goes out in "Sector 4A" and the railroad now knows which lines are out of commission (and if they keep good records, possibly even what might have caused it that lives in that area).

That said, this system obviously only works if outsiders are not aware of how it functions, and so keeping it secret might become quite the priority for the train guilds. Who knows how far they might go to protect themselves.... :smallwink:

Storm_Of_Snow
2014-12-29, 04:28 AM
I'm assuming you've basically got the railroads linking major cities, with smaller settlements along their ways, so to an extent, each settlement will project an area of protection around the tracks.

And if there's an empire, then to an extent, there'll already be a level of security, and you're looking at small groups attacking trains - robbery, for example. Or if there's any rebellion forming, they'll attack the rail network to try and limit troop movements (see the actions of the French Resistance for examples).

The only reason a rail line would be put across dangerous ground is if it make economic sense. Now, that might be to shorten the time taken between two cities, where, say, the safer route is taking a week hopping from settlement to settlement around a desert, and cutting straight across it takes a day and a half, or to access bulk resources which have been discovered in the area (such as coal, iron ore etc - something like gold may not be high volume enough, and while there might be a huge influx of people that a line could serve with goods and transport, if the seam dries up, they could all be gone before the line even gets close).

But in that case, chances are you're going to be building forts every few miles to defend the workforce, which can generate their own plotlines for you - the ones closer to the original settlement might become settlements themselves, some may become abandoned, a branch line may be started, then stopped due to the terrain making it unfeasible or the need being removed, and the fort gets taken over by someone/something that the PCs have to go clear out when the people building the line decide to reactivate the branch and so on.

Marlowe
2014-12-29, 04:41 AM
Pay attention to the Boer War (the second one) as well. A railway line doesn't just have to be a target for raiders, it can also represent a fortification against them.

veti
2014-12-29, 03:13 PM
I am not necessarily worry about defending the trains from direct attack, that shouldn't be too hard unless it is a coordinated ambush out in the wilderness. I am more worried about sabotage to the tracks when no one is looking.

The best solution I have seen so far is probably sending smaller cars ahead to warn of breaks in the tracks, though that still leaves some communication problems.

That doesn't sound like that big of a problem. 19th-century level trains are going to be travelling at maybe 50, 60 m.p.h. at the most. The driver has plenty of time to see a major obstruction and apply the brakes.

Then it's just a matter of fixing the lines. The train itself can carry sufficient tools to do that within a couple of hours.

Really, the only reason to worry about a break in the tracks is that it might have been put there for the purpose of springing an ambush. Which brings us right back to the "direct attacks".

Sending smaller cars ahead - I don't see what that would accomplish, except maybe as a job creation scheme for train drivers.

Talakeal
2014-12-29, 03:34 PM
That doesn't sound like that big of a problem. 19th-century level trains are going to be travelling at maybe 50, 60 m.p.h. at the most. The driver has plenty of time to see a major obstruction and apply the brakes.

Then it's just a matter of fixing the lines. The train itself can carry sufficient tools to do that within a couple of hours.

Really, the only reason to worry about a break in the tracks is that it might have been put there for the purpose of springing an ambush. Which brings us right back to the "direct attacks".

Sending smaller cars ahead - I don't see what that would accomplish, except maybe as a job creation scheme for train drivers.

It was my understanding that the larger the train is the more time it takes to stop, and that if there is an obstruction or break a large train migt not be able to stop in time without warning while a smaller train would.

The Glyphstone
2014-12-29, 04:19 PM
It was my understanding that the larger the train is the more time it takes to stop, and that if there is an obstruction or break a large train migt not be able to stop in time without warning while a smaller train would.

Bigger trains do take longer to stop, yes, but so do smaller trains going faster - that's (F=MxA). But if you look at train routes and where engineers (the building kind) like to place tracks, it's efficient to have as many straightaways for as long as you can get away with, because the train can then go faster. Straightaways mean long sight lines, which means plenty of advance warning of a problem - and in an environment where sightlines are drastically reduced, such as switchbacks on a mountain or a curving valley, the train would slow down appropriately to where they can stop in time. Railway engineers are (presumably) professionals trained for safe driving, after all.

Talakeal
2014-12-29, 04:36 PM
Also, no one in the setting has learned how to reliably generate electricity or store a charge. This might just be chance, might be divine fiat, might be because physics just don't work exactly the same in the setting, but regardless electricity is not going to factor into this.

It is my understanding that most trains take over a mile to stop. I would imagine in the wilderness going a full mile with clear visibility is pretty rare. I know my dad has a story about his work when a guy was protesting a train's cargo and decided to lie in front of the tracks to stop it, but the train simply couldn't stop in time and had no choice but to run him over.

BRC
2014-12-29, 04:42 PM
Would the monsters in the wilderness be that interested in tearing up the tracks?

Railroad tracks are fairly easy for your average monster to just walk over. Generally most animals will just ignore the tracks. There is no incentive to damage them, so wild monsters won't be a problem unless Rust Monsters are wandering around..

Outlaws and savages destroying tracks to raid trains is another story. I suppose the best way is to just make sure that the trains are too well defended to bother attacking. have regular patrols and the like. Trains just need to move slowly enough to be aware of obstructions up ahead, which is what real trains did in the 19th century. Modern trains may take a mile to stop, but trains back then went considerably slower.


But that's boring, lets get a little more interesting.

Elemental Engines: The steam engine of a train is powered by one or more bound Fire elementals. The binding is relatively easy, since they don't need to do very much besides sit in the boiler and be hot. However, crashing the train will break the binding, making the Elementals go berserk. Raiders seeking easy loot will need to keep the train more or less intact, lest they want to deal with the Elementals.

Rail Rangers: The Empire has a special Cavalry unit called the Rail Rangers. It is their job to patrol the tracks, making notes about downed telegraph lines or damaged tracks and discouraging attack. When they find a damaged track, they send up flares and ride to the nearest town, leaving signs along the way to warn any engineers that the track is damaged ahead. As one might expect, the Rangers have a fearsome reputation in the wilderness. They will come down with a fury on any bandit that threatens the railroads.

Contractors: Just because you live in the Wilderness does not mean you don't want Imperial Coin. The Empire makes a habit of bribing powerful Wilderness tribes to protect their rail lines. A group of raiders trying to sabotage the rails might find themselves the target of a band of trolls in the Empire's pocket.
And now lets get crazy
GHOSTS: The construction of the great rail lines was the work of the Imperial Engineering Corps, and many brave soldiers and workers died constructing the lines.
And they jealously protect their work.
Anybody who destroys the tracks runs the risk of angering the spirits of the workers who died building them. Raiders have derailed trains and gotten away with their loot, only to meet a gruesome end at the ghostly hands of the vengeful spirits.

MAGIC TRAINS Mending is a fairly low-level spell. It is possible that the engines themselves are enchanted to constantly cast "meding", or some other low-level repair spell, on the tracks. Massive damage wouldn't be a problem, but it should be able to handle wear and tear, or random damage from a big monster walking over it.

Can't Fight the Railroad Company: Most railroad companies have at least one Dragon in a key leadership position. Mess with the Tracks at your peril.

Mr Beer
2014-12-29, 04:43 PM
It is my understanding that most trains take over a mile to stop. I would imagine in the wilderness going a full mile with clear visibility is pretty rare. I know my dad has a story about his work when a guy was protesting a train's cargo and decided to lie in front of the tracks to stop it, but the train simply couldn't stop in time and had no choice but to run him over.

Darwin Award, but traumatic for the poor driver.

Talakeal
2014-12-29, 04:54 PM
Darwin Award, but traumatic for the poor driver.

IIRC he actually survived, but he lost his legs.

Edit: Yeah, I think this was the guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Willson


Would the monsters in the wilderness be that interested in tearing up the tracks?

Railroad tracks are fairly easy for your average monster to just walk over. Generally most animals will just ignore the tracks. There is no incentive to damage them, so wild monsters won't be a problem unless Rust Monsters are wandering around..

Outlaws and savages destroying tracks to raid trains is another story. I suppose the best way is to just make sure that the trains are too well defended to bother attacking. have regular patrols and the like. Trains just need to move slowly enough to be aware of obstructions up ahead, which is what real trains did in the 19th century. Modern trains may take a mile to stop, but trains back then went considerably slower.


But that's boring, lets get a little more interesting.

Elemental Engines: The steam engine of a train is powered by one or more bound Fire elementals. The binding is relatively easy, since they don't need to do very much besides sit in the boiler and be hot. However, crashing the train will break the binding, making the Elementals go berserk. Raiders seeking easy loot will need to keep the train more or less intact, lest they want to deal with the Elementals.

Rail Rangers: The Empire has a special Cavalry unit called the Rail Rangers. It is their job to patrol the tracks, making notes about downed telegraph lines or damaged tracks and discouraging attack. When they find a damaged track, they send up flares and ride to the nearest town, leaving signs along the way to warn any engineers that the track is damaged ahead. As one might expect, the Rangers have a fearsome reputation in the wilderness. They will come down with a fury on any bandit that threatens the railroads.

Contractors: Just because you live in the Wilderness does not mean you don't want Imperial Coin. The Empire makes a habit of bribing powerful Wilderness tribes to protect their rail lines. A group of raiders trying to sabotage the rails might find themselves the target of a band of trolls in the Empire's pocket.
And now lets get crazy
GHOSTS: The construction of the great rail lines was the work of the Imperial Engineering Corps, and many brave soldiers and workers died constructing the lines.
And they jealously protect their work.
Anybody who destroys the tracks runs the risk of angering the spirits of the workers who died building them. Raiders have derailed trains and gotten away with their loot, only to meet a gruesome end at the ghostly hands of the vengeful spirits.

MAGIC TRAINS Mending is a fairly low-level spell. It is possible that the engines themselves are enchanted to constantly cast "meding", or some other low-level repair spell, on the tracks. Massive damage wouldn't be a problem, but it should be able to handle wear and tear, or random damage from a big monster walking over it.

Those are all great ideas. The bound elementals and magic trains are a bit out of the realm of possibility, but the ghosts are doable, especially if no one knows exactly how much truth is true and how much is legend.

cobaltstarfire
2014-12-29, 05:28 PM
It is my understanding that most trains take over a mile to stop..

A mile isn't actually that far in terms of how far a human can see, we can see a bit further ahead than that, and we have tools to see even further if we need. I have a feeling how long it takes to stop really depends on how heavy and fast the train in question is, and how much it is pulling. Steam Locomotives came in a lot of shapes and sizes to do different jobs.

Presumably "problem" area's will get outposts and trains will probably go slower so that they have more time to respond to destroyed tracks. There already have to be stops at certain intervals in order for trains to refuel on water, and possibly coal/wood for burning. I'd also presume that anywhere there are tracks the forest will have been cleared a certain distance away from each side to help with visibility and to aid in keeping the tracks clear of debris.

The Glyphstone
2014-12-29, 06:19 PM
Also, no one in the setting has learned how to reliably generate electricity or store a charge. This might just be chance, might be divine fiat, might be because physics just don't work exactly the same in the setting, but regardless electricity is not going to factor into this


Um. You said there will be telegraph networks. An electrical telegraph (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_telegraph) functions by means of sending pulsed electrical charges down a cable. So you need to pick one or the other - no electricity, or no telegraphs.



It is my understanding that most trains take over a mile to stop. I would imagine in the wilderness going a full mile with clear visibility is pretty rare. I know my dad has a story about his work when a guy was protesting a train's cargo and decided to lie in front of the tracks to stop it, but the train simply couldn't stop in time and had no choice but to run him over.

There are a lot of trains out there, and you're also thinking of modern trains in size and speed.
http://www.minnesotasafetycouncil.org/facts/factsheet.cfm?qs=858251BECECF1976F908D7D68B570E85

A fully loaded, 100+ car train moving at 55 miles an hour requires a little over a mile to stop. Your 19th century trains will be far smaller, and moving at roughly a similar speed on flat open terrain. You're probably looking at something closer to the 'light rail train' figure given - 1/9 of a mile, or 586 feet.

Talakeal
2014-12-29, 07:00 PM
Um. You said there will be telegraph networks. An electrical telegraph (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_telegraph) functions by means of sending pulsed electrical charges down a cable. So you need to pick one or the other - no electricity, or no telegraphs.



There are a lot of trains out there, and you're also thinking of modern trains in size and speed.
http://www.minnesotasafetycouncil.org/facts/factsheet.cfm?qs=858251BECECF1976F908D7D68B570E85

A fully loaded, 100+ car train moving at 55 miles an hour requires a little over a mile to stop. Your 19th century trains will be far smaller, and moving at roughly a similar speed on flat open terrain. You're probably looking at something closer to the 'light rail train' figure given - 1/9 of a mile, or 586 feet.

Wow, good point, I never knew they had power generation in the 1820s. I wonder why it took so long for electirc technologies to catch on?

The Glyphstone
2014-12-29, 07:22 PM
Because it was new and expensive, and they had other things that worked just as well for much cheaper. The electric telegraph did something current tech could not match - transmit information far faster than a mounted courier at a far lower risk - and so was worth the investment.

Consider, for example, the light bulb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incandescent_light_bulb#Early_pre-commercial_research) - invented as early as 1802, patented in 1841. Thomas Edison, contrary to popular belief, did not invent the incandescent light bulb in 1879. What he did was make it commercially profitable in the US.

Talakeal
2014-12-29, 08:04 PM
Anyway, I guess I need to go back to the shop about the hows and whys of technology.

Regardless, I am not going to introduce technologies not available in the nineteenth century because it eill require extensive rewriting of rules and a great amount of change to the feel of the setting.

sktarq
2014-12-29, 09:21 PM
Let me paint a picture andif I'm off with that then most of what follows can be ignored.

The empire is made up of various provinces. These are based on the old kingdoms and are economically mostly able to take care of themselves. Notice the mostly. Within each - and boarder sharing provinces trains are how we saw them in the 19th century. The lines are placed between pre-existing cities and towns etc. While many of these civilized zones are on various coastlines a few others (a river valley here-a mineral and defence rich hill zone there) are scattered inland. Linking these inland zones are the major train lines that cut through the frontier/wilderness zones.

If that is the case I may recommend a few things.
Firstly many of the above ideas can also be true. The imperial army always is happy to pay off a local tribe to help etc. Perhaps the trains even run on a different gauge track. Then comes the issue of useing them. And that can be problematic on a day to day basis. One of the major responses to dispersed raiding would be a convoy system. Which would good for direct raids. These convoys could be led by special trains that would be engineering builders. Actually if there is a low but extant magic system these trains used to open seasonal trade routes and lead convoys may well be where the imperials put that magic. Earth movers and no fuel special trains or what not. Not just to help open the rail lines each year but they have a second reason. . . To intimate the leaders of the various provinces into not rebelling. Most military response is with just engineering and artillery. Pretty normal battle trains etc. From a story point of view these opening trains could be set up as scary named dreadnaughts of the rails. Meanwhile the many normal trains handle the day to day things.

Also zeplins or blimps to scout the long tracks may be fun. Highly unsafe crazy loons flying them with horrid survival rates but a love of flight. May be fun. Why so dangerous-so that their economic impact is negligible and no body with two coins would be caught dead in one.

SiuiS
2014-12-29, 09:34 PM
I was not expecting this thread to be about literal train tracks...

Yeah.


It is a fairly low magic world, making flying trains, or self repairing tracks, or indistructable / intangible tracks is simply not feasible on a large scale.

Thanks for the link to the old thread, I will check it out.

Why trains?

Trains run on tracks because the tracks keep them going in the right direction, and because the wood struts keep the train from sinking into the earth as it passes by distributing force.

You can achieve similar results with multiple vehicle caravans like modern trucking and freight, and roads are much easier to maintain and much harder to generally sabotage (not that it's really a problem).

Trains for the sake of trains is cool though I suppose.


If the wilderness is infested with monsters and savages and bandits...why is the government going to such expense to build these train routes? If it's just territorial expansion, like how the American West was claimed on the back of the railroads, they should be bringing civilization with them - the only points of vulnerability against the monsters or bandits would be at the frontiers. If it's to connect two settlements/territories at A and B, how did they create those settlements pre-Trains, and what do trains offer over the alternative that's worth the apparently horrendous expense of building, protecting, and rebuilding them?

Trains for the sake of trains doesn't get you very far. Think about the Cause with trains as an Effect, and the Effect with trains as a Cause, and you'll answer a lot of your own questions.

This seems actually very direct to me. There are people all over, Charlemagne style. Creating high speed conduits which send both supplies to keep you happy and legal enforcers to keep you under thumb is the best possible step. Expansion has met it's limit. Now it's time to consolidate and build infrastructure. Makes perfect sense just from the "guys unified kingdoms and want to hold it together" concept.


The whole story is rather long and would probably kill the thread if I typed it all out.

The short answer is Primarily through conquest of existing kingdoms.

Heh.



I am not necessarily worry about defending the trains from direct attack, that shouldn't be too hard unless it is a coordinated ambush out in the wilderness. I am more worried about sabotage to the tracks when no one is looking.

The best solution I have seen so far is probably sending smaller cars ahead to warn of breaks in the tracks, though that still leaves some communication problems.

Sabotage of the tracks is actually the least likely scenario without middle level magic. Seriously, even minor magic can let a few studious union workers tap messages into the rails Knocker style, and a lack of response or interruption (to a message moving at the speed of sound through sense medium!) means send a car of soldiers and workers rather than goods. It's a system that can be operated by level three folks. If you can approximate message spells with miles of distance, you'll be okay.

veti
2014-12-29, 10:42 PM
There are quite a lot of ways of attacking a train track (as distinct from a train) if both sides have 19th century technology. Sling a slab of rock across the rails, shove a stick of dynamite under the rail, saw through the struts of a bridge... really, in a war zone it's amazing any train ever reaches its destination. But all of those things require malicious intent, they're not going to happen accidentally or casually.

I would assume that the empire limits the number of people who are likely to have that kind of intent, simply by allowing people who live near the railways to profit from them. If you send your goods to market on the train, then you've got a stake in keeping the railway running smoothly, and you are the de-facto enemy of anyone who would disrupt it. (Quite apart from any 'alignment' consideration.) So people who live near the railways - like them, and will actively support its defenders - if they see something dodgy, they'll waste no time in reporting it to the authorities.


Because it was new and expensive, and they had other things that worked just as well for much cheaper. The electric telegraph did something current tech could not match - transmit information far faster than a mounted courier at a far lower risk - and so was worth the investment.

Also, there wasn't what we'd recognise as "power generation" in the 1820s: I believe the telegraph was battery-powered.

Generators as we know them, and central power stations, didn't really start to appear until the 1870s.

Jay R
2014-12-29, 10:52 PM
The original telegraphs were not electric. They were semaphore towers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semaphore_line), using the cheapest of all technologies - peasant labor. Every few miles would be a station, and they would send semaphore signals down the line.

The Glyphstone
2014-12-29, 10:57 PM
The original telegraphs were not electric. They were semaphore towers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semaphore_line), using the cheapest of all technologies - peasant labor. Every few miles would be a station, and they would send semaphore signals down the line.

If you want to get pedantic, the original telegraphs were hunter-gatherers sending smoke signals by waving furs over a campfire. The OP was clearly discussing what we think of telegraphs, though, the electrical kind.

Radar
2014-12-30, 04:46 AM
Why trains?

Trains run on tracks because the tracks keep them going in the right direction, and because the wood struts keep the train from sinking into the earth as it passes by distributing force.

You can achieve similar results with multiple vehicle caravans like modern trucking and freight, and roads are much easier to maintain and much harder to generally sabotage (not that it's really a problem).

Trains for the sake of trains is cool though I suppose.
Building good tracks is still much cheaper then building a good road, when you consider bulk transport. Well paved roads are just as vulnerable to sabotage and road vehicles can't really by as long as trains, so they can't haul as much goods. Besides, without combustion engines you pretty much have no good alternative to trains for inland transport.

Storm_Of_Snow
2014-12-30, 04:52 AM
Sending smaller cars ahead - I don't see what that would accomplish, except maybe as a job creation scheme for train drivers.
There are crews that go out every so often to make sure the line's still usable, particularly on the least used and remote lines (such as those in Northern Scotland).

Maybe the party could be on such a crew (either as workers or guards for them).


GHOSTS: The construction of the great rail lines was the work of the Imperial Engineering Corps, and many brave soldiers and workers died constructing the lines.
And they jealously protect their work.
Anybody who destroys the tracks runs the risk of angering the spirits of the workers who died building them. Raiders have derailed trains and gotten away with their loot, only to meet a gruesome end at the ghostly hands of the vengeful spirits.

I really like that idea - railway construction in the early days was a dangerous job, even when not doing major works like tunnel or bridge construction. The spirits of those who've died may not take kindly to people destroying what they built with their lives.

Alternatively, depending on how unpleasant the rail company is, they could sacrifice the occasional worker when no one's looking, and ritually bind their spirit to the particular length of track. :smalleek:

Jay R
2014-12-30, 10:22 AM
If you want to get pedantic, the original telegraphs were hunter-gatherers sending smoke signals by waving furs over a campfire.

Only in retrospect. The word was coined in 1794 to refer to the semaphore telegraph. Later, it was applied to primitive methods.


The OP was clearly discussing what we think of telegraphs, though, the electrical kind.

He was asking about 19th century technology, and the specific question at hand was whether lack of electricity makes a telegraph impossible. So I offered him a way to do it with 19th century technology but without electricity.

Storm_Of_Snow
2014-12-30, 11:48 AM
He was asking about 19th century technology, and the specific question at hand was whether lack of electricity makes a telegraph impossible. So I offered him a way to do it with 19th century technology but without electricity.
Basically, you've given him the Clacks from Discworld. :smallwink:

As an alternative, depending on how far your repeater stations are apart, you could have something similar to old-fashioned mechanical railway signals - long rods that are moved by levers at one end, and thus move the signal arm at the other end. Some of those could potentially be miles long.

The Glyphstone
2014-12-30, 12:45 PM
Only in retrospect. The word was coined in 1794 to refer to the semaphore telegraph. Later, it was applied to primitive methods.



He was asking about 19th century technology, and the specific question at hand was whether lack of electricity makes a telegraph impossible. So I offered him a way to do it with 19th century technology but without electricity.

He also specifically mentioned laying telegraph lines as part of the network, though. So while the divergence into non-electric communication is a valid alternative in its own right, the OP was discussing the electrical version, but just somehow unaware that it used electricity.

That said, a semi-fantasy world where electricity simply doesn't function at all as a harnessed/captured energy source could be interesting. Though it'd do little to curtail typical player shenanigans, particularly the deranged lunatic squad Talakeal persists in playing with - they'll do far more damage to the campaign with gunpowder.

MesiDoomstalker
2014-12-30, 01:01 PM
A lot of attention has been paid to the tracks, and not much to telegraph lines. An easy way is to build the lines along train tracks. Makes it easy to keep tabs on the lines and most defensive measures for the tracks work just as well by proxy. However, even better would to be to bury the lines underneath the tracks. Then only burrowing critters can accidentally destroy them and only those dedicated enough to tear up the tracks can.

cobaltstarfire
2014-12-30, 01:15 PM
This is pretty interesting (Rainhill trials from 1829 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainhill_Trials)) you can glean a lot of information about trains in the early/mid 19th century from it I think. Just going from then to the 30's there was a pretty huge increase in ability from the trains though, so maybe not. Still a neat read either way.

Jay R
2014-12-30, 03:16 PM
A lot of attention has been paid to the tracks, and not much to telegraph lines. An easy way is to build the lines along train tracks. Makes it easy to keep tabs on the lines and most defensive measures for the tracks work just as well by proxy. However, even better would to be to bury the lines underneath the tracks. Then only burrowing critters can accidentally destroy them and only those dedicated enough to tear up the tracks can.

Evidently they tried this, but with 19th century technology, it didn't work well.

The cables were originally installed underground in a steel conduit. However, the cables soon began to fail as a result of deteriorating insulation and were replaced with uninsulated wires on poles. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_telegraph#Cooke_and_Wheatstone_system)

Talakeal
2014-12-30, 03:45 PM
He also specifically mentioned laying telegraph lines as part of the network, though. So while the divergence into non-electric communication is a valid alternative in its own right, the OP was discussing the electrical version, but just somehow unaware that it used electricity.
.

Not so much unaware, I knew they used electricity, I just created the setting many years ago with 19th century technology. Now that I am advancing the timeline I was trying to come up with an excuse for "medieval stasis" and didn't go back and think about how it would affect existing setting elements. More of a brain fart really, but I do legitimately thank you for pointing that out while I while still in the brainstorming phase as that would have been embarrassing to take to the table.

The Glyphstone
2014-12-30, 10:09 PM
Not so much unaware, I knew they used electricity, I just created the setting many years ago with 19th century technology. Now that I am advancing the timeline I was trying to come up with an excuse for "medieval stasis" and didn't go back and think about how it would affect existing setting elements. More of a brain fart really, but I do legitimately thank you for pointing that out while I while still in the brainstorming phase as that would have been embarrassing to take to the table.

I stand corrected. Though I also believe that your 'players' are more likely to try and build some sort of insane train-wrecking gunpowder bomb than to care about whether or not they get electricity.

SiuiS
2014-12-31, 03:23 PM
There are quite a lot of ways of attacking a train track (as distinct from a train) if both sides have 19th century technology. Sling a slab of rock across the rails, shove a stick of dynamite under the rail, saw through the struts of a bridge... really, in a war zone it's amazing any train ever reaches its destination. But all of those things require malicious intent, they're not going to happen accidentally or casually.

Well, yes. My statement was predicated on a dedicated corps of engineers being able to approximate second level spells. If there is a way to verify the integrity of the track beforehand the train won't go there if sabotaged. The easiest way is to use the tracks to conduct messages.

A bomb set to go off as the train beats is close enough to attacking the train for me because it requires the train to be near to attack.



Also, there wasn't what we'd recognise as "power generation" in the 1820s: I believe the telegraph was battery-powered.

Generators as we know them, and central power stations, didn't really start to appear until the 1870s.

Interesting.


Building good tracks is still much cheaper then building a good road, when you consider bulk transport. Well paved roads are just as vulnerable to sabotage and road vehicles can't really by as long as trains, so they can't haul as much goods. Besides, without combustion engines you pretty much have no good alternative to trains for inland transport.

I dunno. Why not make a bunch of smaller, steam freight tricks instead of one big steam freight train? This is D&D, the square-cube law doesn't fully apply.

Tyndmyr
2014-12-31, 03:51 PM
Lots of big monsters. Not so many people capable of handling them. They are more like forces of nature rather than monsters to be fought.


I am not necessarily worry about defending the trains from direct attack, that shouldn't be too hard unless it is a coordinated ambush out in the wilderness. I am more worried about sabotage to the tracks when no one is looking.

The best solution I have seen so far is probably sending smaller cars ahead to warn of breaks in the tracks, though that still leaves some communication problems.

For comms, use flares/flare guns. They're lowish tech, magical or not, and thus mass producable, not excessively combat effective, so they don't screw with other setting stuff, but they provide short line communication between scout cars and trains.

Also, small scouting engines, handcars, stuff like that is a barrel of fun for PCs.

Flag communication via towers is also an option.

Also, engines/cars laden with guns/equivalents are epic.

Also, some train tracks could be in tunnels. Go dwarves, etc.

Bonus points if there's multiple rail companies in competition, using all different methods and standards for everything. Craziness ensues!

Cazero
2014-12-31, 06:20 PM
I dunno. Why not make a bunch of smaller, steam freight tricks instead of one big steam freight train? This is D&D, the square-cube law doesn't fully apply.

The first problem would be to build the smaller engine of that smaller steam freight. Steam power has a tendency of high volume requirement, and making an engine smaller than cart-sized with a second cart carrying the wood/coal/whatever might be technically impossible for fuel (in)efficiency reasons.

The second problem is not crashing your vehicle while it moves at the speeds that steam power can achieve, wich are ludicrous compared to horse power (edit : not actual horses running, but horse pulled carts). The reason trains are on tracks in the first place is because they would crash on roads. Wheel technology was really primitive compared to nowadays cars (wich have elaborate suspension, cardan joint and whatnot), and roads were of much worse quality too.

SiuiS
2014-12-31, 07:13 PM
Steam in a pseudo magic setting can become much more efficient. A dynamic fluid that absorbs heat much faster when condensed and bleeds heat much faster when expanded, stuck into a piston tube and heated in addition to the standard steam system gives you more energy at smaller scale, for example.

But aye. Reading through my own response, I'm needlessly reducing. We don't have enough info for a lot of this conjecture.