Hierarchy of Fighter Archetypes

[Thealtruistorc]

so I've been looking over the wide variety of archetypes the fighter class posseses and have begun to wonder, which ones are the best to take? As such, I was thinking that we could try and come up with a suitable list of them based upon viability. For myself, Mutagen Fighter and Polearm Fighter sit at the top, followed by Trench Fighter. What are your thoughts?

[Extra Anchovies]

I've heard that Lore Warden and Martial Master are good, but am not entirely sure why.

Two-Handed Fighter is a solid one.

[Vhaidara]

I've heard that Lore Warden and Martial Master are good, but am not entirely sure why.

Two-Handed Fighter is a solid one.

I believe the LW MM reasons are
LW: Extra Skills
MM: Hey, you know how you can totally screw yourself by picking the wrong feats? Wanna change them? K.

[Bucky]

Lore Warden bypasses the painful minimum Int for Combat Expertise and, by extension, the Improved Combat Maneuver family of feats.

[Ssalarn]

Lore Warden bypasses the painful minimum Int for Combat Expertise and, by extension, the Improved Combat Maneuver family of feats.

It also gives ridiculous scaling bonuses to CMB in place of Armor Training, which generally doesn't scale terribly well unless you're really pumping DEX. And it improves your skills to 4+INT, which is a plus.

Mutagenic Warrior is probably one if the better ones just by virtue of giving the Fighter access to an array of traditionally magical options.

[grarrrg]

Lore Warden bypasses the painful minimum Int for Combat Expertise and, by extension, the Improved Combat Maneuver family of feats.

Not true.

Paizo has a "thing" where basically every feat 'down the chain' still has the prerequisites of its prerequisites.
So Improved Trip (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/feats.html#improved-trip) STILL has an "INT 13" requirement.
Improved Feint (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/feats.html#improved-feint) STILL has an "INT 13" requirement.
Etc...

This also leads to fairly stupid things like needing a Bab+_1_, and TWELVE levels (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/penetrating-strike-combat---final) of Fighter for the same feat.


It seems like a decent enough thing to houserule, to allow Combat Expertise to 'also' qualify for the INT 13, but strictly as written it does not.

[AvatarVecna]

I've found Lore Wardens to be pretty useful in the fight situation, especially when building a mundane gestalt; that skill improvement isn't actually an increase in the base number of skill points, but a class feature that increases the number of skill points your character gains at any level you took a level of Fighter (Lore Warden). While in a normal game, this means 4 skill points per level, when you can gestalt it with Rogue, it can get even more ridiculous...

[avr]

Mutation Warrior trades armor training for an Alchemists mutagen and a few discoveries modifying the same. This is both worthwhile and potentially interesting, and it can be combined with some other archetypes.

In the event that it is allowed - it's from a part of an adventure path where you could meet some WW1 soldiers, not Golarion - Trench Fighter is an effective gun wielder.

Cad is a dirty trick combat maneuver specialist, and is ... vulnerable to counterattack, but effective in that niche, with a little multiclassing.

Archer is possible for someone who wants to be an archer and who doesn't care about other class features.

Viking is a weak version of the barbarian, but some people like it.

Some of the racial archetypes have niche uses.

[kalasulmar]

Martial Master reads like some of the Fighter fixes posted on this board. Being able to exchange feats is like a wizard being able to prepare different spells everyday. Makes him generally more useful and less pigeon-holed into one specific role. The right build of Lore Warden can really shine if your party composition allows it.

[grarrrg]

Polearm Fighter sit at the top, followed by Trench Fighter. What are your thoughts?

Not sure that Polearm Fighter is all that awesome, unless I missed something.

And Trench Fighter doesn't "do" much of anything. Other than getting DEX to damage 2 levels sooner than a Gunslinger, I don't see much reason to go Fighter over Gunslinger. Fighter AND Gunslinger maybe, but even then the Gunslinger is the Main side and Fighter is just the Dip.


Would like to nominate the Dragoon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/dragoon), starts off slow with level 1 being 2 Mounted Feats (but you don't get a mount, and don't actually 'need' a Mount for most abilities).
Keeps Armor Training 1, so Medium does not hamper movement (loses all other Armor Training).
Level 5 is Double Damage weapon training w/Spears (most class features require a Lance).
Level 7 lets you Threaten at Reach AND Adjacent with the same weapon, and you only need _1_ set of enchantments on the weapon.

The higher abilities are more situational.

[Ssalarn]

The Dirty Fighter archetype combined with the Dirty Trick Master feat from Bastards of Golarion is probably one of the most potent Fighter archetypes out there.

Not a big fan of the Dragoon (or Roughrider) Fighter archetypes due to FAQs really taking the mess that already is mounted combat and throwing it in a blender. Classes without animal companions don't actually have the action economy to make a mounted charge.

[PsyBomb]

Lore Warden and Martial Master are on top by a VERY good bit, followed by Mutation Warrior. I think Polearm and Archer are right behind them.

[grarrrg]

Not a big fan of the Dragoon (or Roughrider) Fighter archetypes due to FAQs really taking the mess that already is mounted combat and throwing it in a blender. Classes without animal companions don't actually have the action economy to make a mounted charge.

Most of the Dragoon abilities don't care about you being mounted. Your two bonus feats at level 1 are both mounted. The next ability that cares comes at level _15_.

Aside from that, everything else is useable 'from the ground'.

[Pex]

Tower Shield Specialist is nice for allowing all the benefits of a tower shield plus a few extra stuff with eventually no penalty to hit at the cost of the weapon training line. You are trading some offensive power for defensive power, but you're not losing offensive power altogether, just the fiddly +#s that comes normally from the fighter class. Strength, magic weapon, feats are all still there.

Unbreakable is good too. You get to use the Heroic feats from Advanced Player's Guide more often per day and improve your Will save to mind-affecting instead of only fear. You lose weapon training and some armor training, and a tower shield you were never going to use. I think it's a good tradeoff. Works better if you can manage to have high Dex and not rely on heavy armor to mitigate the lack of armor training, but you're not screwed if you can't.

[Drelua]

I think Mobile Fighter deserves to be mentioned, even if it only gets anything unique at level 11. I played one at level 12 with Lunge and a reach weapon, and found the ability to always get at least most of a full attack to be extremely valuable. It gets the full weapon training bonus with any weapon as long as you at least take a 5-foot step, and it gets the 2 iterations of Armor Training, which are the most valuable two; enough to treat any armor as light. Most of the other abilities are fairly small, though the capstone's great if you ever get to use it.

[Extra Anchovies]

I think Mobile Fighter deserves to be mentioned, even if it only gets anything unique at level 11. I played one at level 12 with Lunge and a reach weapon, and found the ability to always get at least most of a full attack to be extremely valuable. It gets the full weapon training bonus with any weapon as long as you at least take a 5-foot step, and it gets the 2 iterations of Armor Training, which are the most valuable two; enough to treat any armor as light. Most of the other abilities are fairly small, though the capstone's great if you ever get to use it.

Seconding this. Also, it's a pretty solid choice for TWFers.

[Drelua]

Seconding this. Also, it's a pretty solid choice for TWFers.

Right, that too. Giving up your first attack is a much smaller loss when TWFing.

[T.G. Oskar]

I think the proper question here is "which Fighter archetype you find out to be pointless"

As far as I reckon just from reading, it seems you can make an impromptu Tier System, but without the baggage of the existing one. Rather than define them by effectiveness alone, define them by their main trait:

Inconditional Tier: The one that people claim to be good no matter what, because every build is good with it.
Examples: Lore Warden, Martial Master, Mutation Warrior

Conditional Tier: The one that's good for certain builds, but not for all. These include the "specialist" builds>
Examples: Cad (for Dirty Trick), Polearm Master (for Polearms), Shielded Warrior (for Sword & Board), Trench Fighter (for firearms, esp. modern ones), Two-Handed Fighter (for two-handed weapons)

Rejected Tier: The ones that aren't good no matter what.
Examples: No idea, to be honest.

I presume there's a tier in the middle of Conditional and Rejected, which includes those that might be good in very specific builds but otherwise wouldn't be a choice.

It doesn't necessarily has to be a "Tier" system (it could be a Category system, for all it's worth), but since it measures them in terms of effectiveness in general, chances are it'll be taken as such.

Regarding Viking: it's a pretty effective archetype overall, but for some reason it favors light shields (fluff?) even though Barbarians favor two-handed weapons. Getting Rage + Rage Powers on top of a bunch of feats (by sacrificing a few of them, though) and Weapon Training is pretty cool, even though you lose Armor Mastery on top. It has one of the best exchanges of Bravery, IMO. The right build could make good use of Rage + Rage powers; any build that relies on Strength could use Rage (and they get Rage as if a Barbarian, so that means Greater Rage), and the right Rage Powers can complement the build's weaknesses one way or another. Of course it's a "weaker" version of the Barbarian since it doesn't get Mighty Rage or Tireless Rage, but consider it as losing 2 skill points per level and dross like Trap Sense and Damage Reduction for extra Fighter Bonus Feats and a better form of demoralize (even though it's no longer as powerful as it was on 3.5). Looking at it that way, it's certainly a viable competitor for the Barbarian.

[Sayt]

Well, the old Viking berserks were famous for literally gnawing on their shields as they waited for combat.

[Ssalarn]

Go ahead and add Crossbowman to "Rejected"; that archetype is awful.