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ocato
2007-03-30, 10:21 AM
I don't have the books on hand and this always messes me up. I believe the rules for 'expanding' a crit range are how many numbers, for example, critting on 20 is 1 number, so 1 x 2 = 2. Two numbers, ie 19 and 20, now crit. But if that's so, taking Improved critical with my Elven Rapier (18-20) or a similar weapon... 18, 19, 20 is 3 numbers, 3 x 2 = 6, so that's what... 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, and 20 are crits? I know that other than natural 20 you still have to hit to qualify for a possible crit but still, 15-20 crit range seems a bit... excessive. I realize why improved critical doesn't stack with other crit range improving effects, such as keen. I'm just checking for clarification/correction on these rules. Granted 2 feats [Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Elven Rapier) and Improved Critical (Rapier)]for that crit range is a bit of a lot as well, so I guess spending 2 feats for a 15-20 crit range isn't nearly as excessive. Actually... that leads to a second question, is there a Rapier subtype? That is to say, could you get a feat for rapiers and it would effect elven rapiers? That seems to make sense. The arms and equipment book alludes to the whip-dagger and mighty whip both using and applying feats for the regular whip, so that if you finesse or exotic weapon proficiency a whip, you get said feats on every whip, including the differentish weapon, the whip-dagger. It seems wasteful and unnecessary that I'd have to reaquire weapon finesse for the elven rapier as well as get exotic weapon proficiency for it as well as reaquire improved critical.

Backstory: We rescued an elven princess and hit L15 in the same night, so I (Bard) have access to a +3 Elven Rapier. I already have imprived crit and weapon finesse with my rapier (I swashbuckle when needed) and was wondering, since I wasn't exactly jonesin' for any other feats, if these feats worked with the new weapon and it was worth taking (no one else wants it). My character likes to sword fight (took Combat Expertise to sort of represent the parry/dodging of a fencer type swordsman) so a new and interesting type of rapier would appeal to him on that level, but if it would be grossly ineffective, it's sort of silly. Thanks.

Sampi
2007-03-30, 10:23 AM
Yes, Improved Critical works exactly that way. With threat range 19-20 weapons, it goes up to 17-20, with 18-20 weapons to 15-20.

And you have to confirm a crit always, even on a natural 20.

ocato
2007-03-30, 10:28 AM
Right, on natural 20 you automatically hit and roll your confirmation for a critical.

If you get a 15+ 9 (BaB) + 4(dex) = 28 and his AC is 29, you didn't hit and you certainly aren't eligible for a possible critical. I understand that much, and thanks for confirming the crit information.

brian c
2007-03-30, 11:09 AM
Rapiers are pretty good weapons because of the insane threat range. There's a feat, I think Overwhelming Critical, that gives a +4 bonus to your critical confirm rolls. Normally that doesn't come up much, but if you've got a rapier that crits 1/4th of the time, it can be a helpful feat to pick up.

AtomicKitKat
2007-03-30, 11:14 AM
There's precedence for treating a "similar" weapon as "the same" weapon for the purposes of (G)WF/(G)WS. Broadblade Shortsword, Long Axe, Long Staff, all let you use the WF/WS feats for the similar base weapons(Shortsword, Greataxe, Quarterstaff). Note that it's up to DM fiat if this also applies to class abilities involving specific weapons.

Edit: Overwhelming Critical is the Epic Feat that gives bonus d6s for each multiplier-1(1d6 for *2, 2d6 for *3, etc.). Power Critical is the one that gives bonuses to the confirmation.

Sampi
2007-03-30, 11:15 AM
However, the whole thing sucks badly if you happen to go agains oozes, undead, constructs and other monsters immune to critical hits.

It does, however, stack well with sneak attacking.

As to your problem with the rapier feat expenditure, I personally think this would be a valid case for feat retraining. I think the rules are in PHBII.

Tweekinator
2007-03-30, 11:19 AM
The feat is Power Critical. It grants a +4 bonus to critical confirmation rolls with a specific weapon.

ocato
2007-03-30, 11:33 AM
I'll talk to my DM, he's pretty good about that stuff so I may be swashing and buckling by tomorrow night. Granted the DM often mocks my melee attempts, even describing using Tarsha's Hideous Laughter then attacking my prone enemy in two successive rounds as "You draw your rapier to fight and the goblin looks at you, asks if you are serious, then falls over laughing. You proceed to poke him in the tummy while he shouts that it tickles."

brian c
2007-03-30, 11:42 AM
Edit: Overwhelming Critical is the Epic Feat that gives bonus d6s for each multiplier-1(1d6 for *2, 2d6 for *3, etc.). Power Critical is the one that gives bonuses to the confirmation.

I got it wrong, but I'm happy that Overwhelming Critical is at least a real feat and not something that I made up. :smallsmile:

Person_Man
2007-03-30, 11:52 AM
I'm a statistician, and I've run the numbers on this a bunch of times. Improved Critical doesn't help your damage very much, and is usually a waste of a feat compared to numerous other feats (Power Attack, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, Combat Brute, Headlong Rush, Knock-Down, Knockback, Elusive Target, Snap Kick, Deformity (Tall), Deformity (teeth), Deepspawn, Inhuman Reach, Extended Reach, etc, etc..)

The exception is when you want to play a Psionic Weapon Master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20020927a) (who can get a 20% threat range with a *4 crit weapon), or if you don't have enough feats to invest in a more useful feat chain but still use a powerful magic rapier or scythe or whatever on a regular basis.

Rad
2007-03-30, 12:17 PM
I realize why improved critical doesn't stack with other crit range improving effects, such as keen.

actually, improved critical and keen do stack.

Krellen
2007-03-30, 12:20 PM
actually, improved critical and keen do stack.
It did in 3.0, but they revised it in 3.5. Check it out. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedCritical)


This effect doesn’t stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon.

NotCC
2007-03-30, 12:28 PM
actually, improved critical and keen do stack.

No they don't.

The best weapon in the game statistically is Great Falcion/Schimitar(Dont have my book) from Sandstorm. Great Sword damage 2d6 with a 18-20 crit range. Totally retarded.

Add to that the "balanced" enchantment to let you weild a huge GF, improved critical, the Exotic weapon master's ability, and the epic feat mentioned above
and you have a 5d6 15-20x2 crit cheese slicer.

I'm sure there are even more ways to amp this up like righteous might which makes you and your equipment 1 step larger so 6d6 15-20x2 ect.

Tyrael
2007-03-30, 01:06 PM
There's precedence for treating a "similar" weapon as "the same" weapon for the purposes of (G)WF/(G)WS. Broadblade Shortsword, Long Axe, Long Staff, all let you use the WF/WS feats for the similar base weapons(Shortsword, Greataxe, Quarterstaff). Note that it's up to DM fiat if this also applies to class abilities involving specific weapons.

Edit: Overwhelming Critical is the Epic Feat that gives bonus d6s for each multiplier-1(1d6 for *2, 2d6 for *3, etc.). Power Critical is the one that gives bonuses to the confirmation.

There's a swashbuckler in our party who's really keen on the broadblade but the DM gives him a hard time since it's an exotic. You say Weapon Focus/Specialization would count for both shortsword and Broadblade, but does that extend to proficiency, too?

TRM
2007-03-30, 01:55 PM
Not that this applies to your case BUT...

Talenta Sharassh.
1d10 19-20/x4 critical. You could do some serious damage witha keen one of those.

**On Topic**
There is a good case for you to be able to use feats that apply to the rapier for the elven rapier.

Edit: It appears that I was a bit late with my post.

Latronis
2007-03-30, 02:53 PM
Not that this applies to your case BUT...

Talenta Sharassh.
1d10 19-20/x4 critical. You could do some serious damage witha keen one of those.

**On Topic**
There is a good case for you to be able to use feats that apply to the rapier for the elven rapier.

Edit: It appears that I was a bit late with my post.

That had better not be a one-handed weapon.....

If i were DM i'd allow it, i think most would.

Rigeld2
2007-03-30, 04:41 PM
Its a two handed exotic weapon.

Dhavaer
2007-03-30, 05:08 PM
It's also been errata'd, but I don't know what to.

Innis Cabal
2007-03-30, 05:12 PM
i house rule that improved crit stacks with keen and other crit lowering feats/abilities..anything the PC's have the NPC's can have to

Rad
2007-03-30, 05:12 PM
It did in 3.0, but they revised it in 3.5. Check it out. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedCritical)

Ooooooops... sorry; in my group we're still playing a weird hybrid version of the rules.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-30, 05:13 PM
To 19-20 x2.

ocato
2007-03-30, 05:32 PM
There's a swashbuckler in our party who's really keen on the broadblade but the DM gives him a hard time since it's an exotic. You say Weapon Focus/Specialization would count for both shortsword and Broadblade, but does that extend to proficiency, too?

You still have to take a feat to gain proficiency with these weapons, because you still wield them differently. An elven rapier, for example, probably has a significantly lighter blade that'd be hard to use precisely (to get that extra crit number) unless you practiced with it. But once you got that down, it'd be very much like wielding a regular rapier in regards to your extensive (weapon finesse and improved critical) training on the weapon. So the idea (DM's discretion of course) is that if you gain exotic weapon proficiency with a "modified version" of a weapon, feats that improve use of the original weapon type are applicable to the new 'modified' weapon.

So in short your friend needs to pick up exotic weapon proficiency (Broadblade shortsword) but his weapon finesse or weapon focus or whatever with normal shortswords can be argued to apply based on your DM's opinion of the arguement.

Reinboom
2007-03-30, 05:40 PM
May I also emphasize people look at the, seemingly, rarely looked at rule of multiplying?
Page 304, glossary of the PHB (3.5)
More or less, 2x and 2x = 3x, not 4x. So even if you could expand the crit range arbitrarily...

Nerd-o-rama
2007-03-30, 05:47 PM
In 3.0, it was still possible to get a 2-20 Crit range using official sources, or close enough as makes no difference. I believe this was done through Keen enhancement, Improved Critical, a couple of class features, and the 3.0 Spikes spell. The spell Keen Edge might have also stacked.

Matthew
2007-03-30, 05:59 PM
May I also emphasize people look at the, seemingly, rarely looked at rule of multiplying?
Page 304, glossary of the PHB (3.5)
More or less, 2x and 2x = 3x, not 4x. So even if you could expand the crit range arbitrarily...

Yes, but not in this case.

The Valiant Turtle
2007-03-31, 09:00 AM
I still allow keen + Improved crit to stack. Melee fighters need all the help they can get.

I once played an Epic Psionic Weapon master that I believe critted on a 14-20. On one full attack sequence I took an ancient half-demon dragon down to something like 1/4 of its HP. 3.0 Psi Warriors with mind-feeder weapons could really stack the cheese. Of course, that DM actually told us to overpower our characters as much as possible.

Latronis
2007-03-31, 03:03 PM
I rule everything that affects critical ranges as either

Skill based (such as the improved critical feat)
or Weapon based (such as the keen property)

the same type of Critical threat ranges don't stack, so you get at most a x3 threat range. (12-20 since i've yet to allow something better then 18-20 at base)

martyboy74
2007-03-31, 03:17 PM
I rule everything that affects critical ranges as either

Skill based (such as the improved critical feat)
or Weapon based (such as the keen property)

the same type of Critical threat ranges don't stack, so you get at most a x3 threat range. (12-20 since i've yet to allow something better then 18-20 at base)

What about the pick? Y'know, the one in the PHB with a x4 critical modifier.

\/ Oops...:smallredface:

Rigeld2
2007-03-31, 03:19 PM
He means you can only multiply the range 3 times.

Latronis
2007-03-31, 03:47 PM
uh yeah i guess i coulda been clearer on that

but since a doubled double counts as a triple you can end up with a maximum critical threat range of triple the base weapon. In the case of the scimitar for a simple example is 18-20\x2 (threatens on highest 3 rolls) a keen scimitar is 15-20\x2(threatens on highest 6 rolls) and with improved critical is 12-20\x2(threatens on highest 9 rolls) throw in a keen edge spell and that overlaps with the keen property so it's still 12-20\x2 throw in exotic weapon master and its increasing critical range through skill so it overlaps not stacks with improved critical.

ocato
2007-03-31, 03:52 PM
I'm a statistician, and I've run the numbers on this a bunch of times. Improved Critical doesn't help your damage very much, and is usually a waste of a feat compared to numerous other feats


That's very interesting to hear. I'm gonna keep it though because it isn't really about optimised characterization as much as the general feel of the character.

Singy song song cast a spell to help my friend, oh noes a thing wants to bite my toes, I'll use my super combat expertise to dodge and parry like a swashbucklin' errol flynn, then make precise (critical) strikes in betwixt my dodgum parriness. Then I'll buff the barbarian, oh Sannix cleave his face for me (please).

In my head that was a ridiculously arrhythmic song.

Update: The DM agreed so I am all up ons with the weapon finessed improved critical'd elven rapier of +3. Fear my Foppish Sword Fighting.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-31, 03:59 PM
...how is "Improved Critical" related to the general feel of the character? If you want "precise strikes", you'll want that to actuall be reflected in play, i.e. you hitting more often or harder. Improved Critical doesn't actually help with that.

ocato
2007-03-31, 04:01 PM
If I would've hit anyway with that 15 and now it's a crit, instead of a rapier jab to the arm it's a rapier jab to the neck. Seems more precise to me.

Latronis
2007-03-31, 04:03 PM
Because when he hits it hurts?

Improved Critical can easily represent trying to hit that one sweet spot as opposed to just trying to cleave something in half

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-31, 04:06 PM
It's now a critical threat, which you need to confirm. You'll be getting to try to confirm 15% more often. You confirm on, what, a 15+? That adds your regular damage 30% of 15% of the time. 30% of 15% is 4.5%. If you just took Weapon Focus (not a very good feat), you'd hit 5% more often, adding your regular damage 5% of the time... against everything, not just crittable enemies. Hitting more often is also "precision".
Besides, you can just get a Keen rapier if you really want the extra crits.

You'd be better off dipping a level of rogue for Sneak Attack if you really want "precise strikes". Or you could, you know, describe your strikes as being precise. The numbers are just damage numbers, you can describe them however you want.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-03-31, 04:08 PM
I roleplay my players' criticals, but I don't really think the stats themselves add much anything to the flavor. As a general rule, I make the criticals sound like they hurt and (determined by an invisible dice roll) possibly disable the victim in some way. But this stuff isn't in any book ever written when dealing with criticals. There is effectively no fluff for it.

ocato
2007-03-31, 04:11 PM
Well, the DM does that in our game. So if you hit, he'll describe it fairly mundanely. If you crit, you get a more flavorful description about precise swordplay and all that jazz.

Fawsto
2007-04-01, 12:05 AM
Since I and my Groups think that the keen + ICritical doesn't staking is nerfing (again) the fighting classes in comparisson with the casters, but the possibility of a 9-20/x2 crit range for a keen rapier is way too much, we decided the following:

.Improved Critical: Doubles the weapon NATURAL crit range. Ex: Longsword 19-20 becomes 17-20.

.Keen: Increase the Crit range by 1 number, but it isn't multiplied by the Improved Critical feat.. Ex1: Longsword 19-20 becomes 18-20 crit range. Ex2: Keen Longwsord + Improved Critical has a crit range of 16-20. 17-20 from the Improved Critical Feat and 16 from the Keen spell.

Making it a halfway between the 2 rules.

Why keen just increase by 1 while the Feat doubles the weapons natural crit range? Beacuse it takes a bunch of feats (ok, 2 feats) to get improved critical, while you just have to pay for a Keen weapon. Feats are much more valuable than money, in my point of view.

Also Power Critical is better for those "once in a lifetime" crit weapons, such Picks, Scythes, Axes and Spears, 'cause it helps confirming the critical hit that you waited for so long. It would also be a good feat for a bigger crit range weapon, but it is unecessary, since you will be scoring crits almost all the time.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-01, 12:11 AM
Umm, a Keen Rapier with Imp. Crit Would go from 17-20 to 15-20 to 12-20. Two doubles is a triple. 12, not 9.

Power Critical is, mechanically, one of the worst feats around.

brian c
2007-04-01, 12:43 AM
Power Critical is, mechanically, one of the worst feats around.

Yeah, I kinda wish that was just part of improved critical. that would kinda make sense, if you're better at hitting opponents in their weak spots then you should be... uh... better at definitely hitting opponents in their weak spots, as opposed to the "critical! oh wait just kidding" that happens when you fail to confirm (happened in my game today, the fighter rolled 19 to hit but then a nat 1 for confirm). Plus, as Person_Man said, Improved Critical isn't really that strong. I don't think that adding another minor benefit, +4 to confirm (or maybe only +2) would make it overpowered in any way.

argentsaber
2007-04-01, 06:26 AM
Makes sense to me that you should see if your DM would allow you the Craven feat. From a theme, you could reason that it's not really you being, well, CRAVEN, but more reckless. Anyhow, the extra damage is a "plus" not a "die" so it should get multiplied on a crit unless i am mistaken.

Zincorium
2007-04-01, 06:43 AM
Makes sense to me that you should see if your DM would allow you the Craven feat. From a theme, you could reason that it's not really you being, well, CRAVEN, but more reckless. Anyhow, the extra damage is a "plus" not a "die" so it should get multiplied on a crit unless i am mistaken.

Personally, a -2 penalty on fear effects does not seem 'reckless', it seems down right cowardly, and sneak attacking is distinctly underhanded and, well, sneaky. Cowardly and underhanded...now, do we know of a word that fits those characteristics? Yep, craven.

And yes, the bonus damage would be multiplied on a crit. Seriously, that rule of bonus damage vs. bonus dice is far too general to always make sense, so while it is fodder for rule 0, it stands for now.

Also, while it's not all that setting specific, most non-FR groups (and many that do play that setting) will not have Champions of Ruin, so I hesitate to recommend it.