Low optimization party, DM Problems.

[Gwachitallemall]

Alright, I'm a DM for a two man party, a sorcerer and a wizard. You'd think I'd have problems with them being too high op, but no. Both of them are really bad/new at playing wizards and sorcerers.

The main problem I've had, is that the wizard is refusing/ just not wanting to pick her 2 free spells at level up. She's level 5, 18 int, and has a total of 10 spells, 9 of them level 1. Oh, also generalist.

How would you, people of this forum, deal with this problem? It's one I haven't had before.

They've been able to get through most problems that have come up, but mostly through the sorcerer's abilities, and their two cohorts/hirelings (Warforged fighters, we're in Eberron, wanted to make the party 4 man without really having too much issue, I built the fighters and they mostly outperform the party members just with regular attacks, although sometimes the sorcerer or wizard surprise me, very rarely though.)

I don't really want to up the difficulty or start making the skeletons/zombies that they've been fighting for right now more intelligent. (In the Shadow's of the Last war adventure module, about to jump to the next adventure module, grasp of the emerald claw. Going back to Rhukaan Dral now.)

Any suggestions? Thanks for your help. We play at 10 AM central this morning, so I'll probably post an after session note on here.

[Vhaidara]

The main problem I've had, is that the wizard is refusing/ just not wanting to pick her 2 free spells at level up. She's level 5, 18 int, and has a total of 10 spells, 9 of them level 1. Oh, also generalist.

Generalist isn't actually a problem.

Have they told you why they don't want to get their only lass feature? Do they realize that they are basically playing 4 levels behind?

[ahenobarbi]

The main problem I've had, is that the wizard is refusing/ just not wanting to pick her 2 free spells at level up. She's level 5, 18 int, and has a total of 10 spells, 9 of them level 1. Oh, also generalist.

You probably should talk o the player why they chose to play a Wizard if they don't want to use spells and try to work with player on improving the character when you know their reason (if it's too complex you could try lowering level or using a cleric. If they want to be clever with lower power spells you might suggest a Factotum...).

[RoboEmperor]

Give them a magic item that teleports them home if they die, and resurrect them at no penalty.

Then you can make them fail again and again and again and again.

Eventually, they'll stop failing.

[Gwachitallemall]

Wasn't saying the Generalist was actually a problem, was just specifying on how many spell slots she had open. I've been working on convincing her to get her spell slots, but generally, she's just so overwhelmed with all her options, and doesn't have much time outside of campaign time to work on it, where I generally say campaign time is for actual campaign, not levelling characters. (Options are Eberron spells, all open, Spell Compendium, and PHB, are the splatbooks I've allowed for spells. Also, all the completes (except Psionic, neither of them want to try Psionic), as soon as we get them all, are allowed for feat diving and class feature diving.)

I didn't note this, but they're both actually level 6. The Sorcerer is going 6 Sorc, 2 Paladin, Abjurant Champion, while the Wizard went 1 Rogue, 5 Wizard, into either Arcane Trickster or Unseen Seer, haven't exactly found out her plans yet.

I don't think I want to use a magic item like that, especially in the Eberron campaign setting, where getting revived is rare to never happens.

[RoboEmperor]

Well, make failure an option somehow then. Have one of the NPCs "rescue them" or something when they hit negative hp.

If they can't fail, and they're not good enough to succeed, you either make encounters a joke to match their level, or make them try harder by not letting them proceed through the game. Seems like they want to play their own way than an optimized or better way.

[JoshuaZ]

Wasn't saying the Generalist was actually a problem, was just specifying on how many spell slots she had open. I've been working on convincing her to get her spell slots, but generally, she's just so overwhelmed with all her options, and doesn't have much time outside of campaign time to work on it, where I generally say campaign time is for actual campaign, not levelling characters. (Options are Eberron spells, all open, Spell Compendium, and PHB, are the splatbooks I've allowed for spells. Also, all the completes (except Psionic, neither of them want to try Psionic), as soon as we get them all, are allowed for feat diving and class feature diving.)

I didn't note this, but they're both actually level 6. The Sorcerer is going 6 Sorc, 2 Paladin, Abjurant Champion, while the Wizard went 1 Rogue, 5 Wizard, into either Arcane Trickster or Unseen Seer, haven't exactly found out her plans yet.

I don't think I want to use a magic item like that, especially in the Eberron campaign setting, where getting revived is rare to never happens.

This sounds like wizard may not have been a good choice. It may make sense for them to play a sorcerer instead.

Another option is for them to discover a set of scrolls with some spells not on the wizard's current spells. That will give them a free but narrow set of options.

[Threadnaught]

Spend a non-campaign session with the two and help the Wizard player to choose what she puts in the Spellbook. Then help her to decide on a bunch of Spell selections out of what's in her Spellbook, up to her Spell slot total, this should help to prepare her for Wizard.

The Sorcerer could be a more serious issue, but you haven't mentioned the issue there.
Occasionally reminding both players that their Characters can cast Spells shouldn't hurt.

Personally, I link to a guide of the Class they're playing, force them to use all resources levelling up gives and give the occasional reminder of their Class Abilities until I'm sure they know what their Characters are capable of.

[Dgrin]

How about suggesting her some spells and printing spell cards so that it was easier for her to see her options? For example, here (http://i.imgur.com/dnfsfXf.png) is one of the cards I made for my campaign. They're for Pathfinder but the same principle applies. You don't have remember the details on spells while player can simply flip the card when she used the spell and call it a day

[Gwachitallemall]

Sorcerer hasn't been much of an issue so far, he's picking standard low-op spells, (Let's see if I can remember his spell list off hand)

Fireball, Whirling blade, Mage Armor, Shield (Some of these aren't low-op, or are but also lend themselves to high-op) Glitterdust, Flaming Sphere, That's the main ones he's used.

The wizard is actually sitting next to me redoing her spells now, she was trying to be a more defensive caster, and she said she never found a lot of defensive spells.

So far I've noted Web, Shield, and Mage Armor being on her list, as well as Expedient something, maybe retreat? She just walked away because the laptop she was using to choose her spells is dieing.

We have all the books I've noted so she can look through them, and she took the time about 3-4 weeks ago to take all of the spells and write them into a list with their simple descriptions.

The Wizard player is actually my wife, which is why she's here now. It's just taken a while to get her to actually sit down and build her character.

I believe this is the 2nd character for the Sorcerer ever, the first one was an artificer which he mainly used to build items, not really use the infusions. He's been more of a "Oh, that option you're using looks nice, how do you use it?" Player, meaning I've been able to influence him by choosing options for the enemies.

[Sam K]

Offer to pick some good spells, and let the wizard (and probably the sorc, since poor spell picks can mess them up so badly) have some leeway with getting new spells, or changing spells if they find something really didn't work out the way they thought it would.

Both wiz and sorc can be hard for new/low op players, wiz because of the sheer amount of choices available, and sorc because one bad choice can really hold you back for several levels. This can lead to decision anxiety, so try to take the edge off of the choices.

[HyperDunkBarkly]

grease is always a fun low-level spell to dump on enemies.

[Gwachitallemall]

I'll definitely take these suggestions into consideration, the campaign will begin in about an hour so I'm going to check and see what spells they have listed, then get back with those spells.

Any spell suggestions I should consider?

1st, 2nd, 3rd level, from Spell Compendium, PHB, and any Eberron Splatbook.

[Andezzar]

How about suggesting her some spells and printing spell cards so that it was easier for her to see her options? For example, here (http://i.imgur.com/dnfsfXf.png) is one of the cards I made for my campaign. They're for Pathfinder but the same principle applies. You don't have remember the details on spells while player can simply flip the card when she used the spell and call it a dayThat is a nice card. Do you have a template for it?

If it is not too late:
2nd level: Glitterdust, Rope Trick!, Web
3rd level: Dispel Magic, Stinking Cloud!, Haste, Slow, Fly

[Tohsaka Rin]

Changing to a Warlock might be easier than playing Wizard, if shuffling through spells is an issue.

EDIT - Not a quick-fix before your game, I know, but something to consider if running a Wizard just isn't doing it for your player.

[Dgrin]

That is a nice card. Do you have a template for it?

Sure, I can pm you an *.svg file I used for it. You only have to write your own spell text.

Actually, I'm thinking about doing all the spells but I don't have enough time for it right now. If I do, they'll be here, on forums.

EDIT: Sent you the link, I'm not going to derail this thread even more, so feel free to pm me if you have any questions

[Gwachitallemall]

Everything worked out. She picked her spells, did alright, spells I noticed- Mage Armor Mass, Targeting Ray, as well as ones I had already noted.

The Sorcerer had a little more trouble in the fight this time, it's more a player style. He rushed a direape and got demolished, reduced to -9 but had a brooch of stability on him. There was only one physical encounter this session (Session is 4 hours long) Most of the session was diplomacy and story advancing without fighting.

Let's see what their spells are. Note if anything seems strange on spell counts, Sorcerer 6, Wizard 5.

Sorcerer:
Mage Armor, Shield, Color Spray, Magic Missile. Whirling Blade, Flaming Sphere. Fireball.

Wizard:
Dragonmarked Shield, Ectoplasmic Armor, Endure Elements, Feather Fall, Nightshield, Shield, Targeting Ray, Tenser's Floating Disk, Mage Armor.
Expose the Dead, Daggerspell Stance, Fortify Dragonmark, Phantom Foe.
Mage Armor Mass, Mage Armor Greater.

[Fallenreality]

Just a question based on that Wizard list. I know you said the Wizard wanted to play mostly defensively, but what are they doing in combat?

You mentioned Arcane Trickster, so are they mainly using daggers?
Also speaking of Arcane Trickster, possibly an image spell or two would be flavorful/useful. Illusions can have rather handy defensive uses as well.

You might like to consider tossing them a wand of magic missile just in case.

[Gwachitallemall]

The party have 2 wands of magic missile. I think they're a -little- under WBL, 39,000 for them two and their 2 cohorts.

Yeah, they haven't picked up mirror image yet.

If I remember for gear, the Sorcerer just picked up gloves of dex (Over something for Charisma) And spent pretty much everything he had on hand. While the wizard picked up some thieves tools, an eternal wand, and some other minor items.

They both use a form of crossbows, while the wizard secondaries in dagger, and the sorcerer has a bludgeoning weapon.

Wizard has been using a crossbow in combat, and casting defensive spells to help both of them.

[Fallenreality]

Mmk, that works. I was referring to silent and major image as well as mirror. You can do a lot with a well placed illusion of a wall or pit.

[Tohsaka Rin]

If they're favoring crossbows, I suggest getting wandchambers installed.

Nothing like having access to a wand while your hands are still full, in a pinch.

[atemu1234]

Teach the wizard a lesson. I, for one, have my group update their character sheets between games. They don't? Have them do it before games, go Zimbardo on them. I don't tolerate people intentionally shirking this, especially with spells.

[Fallenreality]

Teach the wizard a lesson. I, for one, have my group update their character sheets between games. They don't? Have them do it before games, go Zimbardo on them. I don't tolerate people intentionally shirking this, especially with spells.

Teach the wizard a lesson seems a bit harsh for new players. xD

It seems that they got everything figured out. I agree on the wandchamber bit. It also gives the fun of launching magic missiles from the crossbow which is cool flavor wise.

[Gwachitallemall]

I'll look into the wandchambers. Where are those located? My players are of a style of lately if I don't provide the information, they don't find it.

And I agree with the other person who said it's harsh on new players to teach them a lesson, I already taught them a lesson last session about keeping all of their worldly possessions in a wagon. I don't think they learned it, however. Have to teach it to them again.

[Mystral]

Alright, I'm a DM for a two man party, a sorcerer and a wizard. You'd think I'd have problems with them being too high op, but no. Both of them are really bad/new at playing wizards and sorcerers.

The main problem I've had, is that the wizard is refusing/ just not wanting to pick her 2 free spells at level up. She's level 5, 18 int, and has a total of 10 spells, 9 of them level 1. Oh, also generalist.

Any reason for that? Role playing reasons? Is she just trying to spite you?

[Fallenreality]

Wand Chambers are found in Dungeonscape. It also has Wand Bracers which let you store 5 wands and shoot the one you want into your hand instantly.

The book also contains some fairly useful things for dungeon design so it's worth taking a look just from a DM standpoint.

[Gwachitallemall]

Mystral, she just forgets to. She's finally picked them, one day it was the laptop was dead, next day it was the 2 year old toddler of ours was demanding too much attention, it continued until Sunday at 6 AM I woke her up and told her to do it. Listed lower in the thread she has 15 spells now, for a 5th level, +4 int mod, that's correct, I believe.

Dungeonscape huh.. Have to get that book then.

Our next session has been delayed until the 25th of January, so I should have plenty of time to get anything I need ready. Normally we play every week but there are some delays this next month.

[atemu1234]

Mystral, she just forgets to. She's finally picked them, one day it was the laptop was dead, next day it was the 2 year old toddler of ours was demanding too much attention, it continued until Sunday at 6 AM I woke her up and told her to do it. Listed lower in the thread she has 15 spells now, for a 5th level, +4 int mod, that's correct, I believe.

Dungeonscape huh.. Have to get that book then.

Our next session has been delayed until the 25th of January, so I should have plenty of time to get anything I need ready. Normally we play every week but there are some delays this next month.

Ah, toddlers. Or, as I call them, post-birth fetuses from hell.

[Gwachitallemall]

Well, she's a cute post-birth fetus from hell, if she is that.

Anyways, beside that note, I didn't really have much else to say, I'll be looking over their wealth and everything over the next week, I believe their current wealth totals around 34,000. 2 PC's, 2 Cohorts.

[Fallenreality]

Party wealth intake is generally one of the easier things for a DM to change if the players are not as strong as they should be.

It makes the players happy because loot, and you happy because they're closer to where you want them for your campaign.

[atemu1234]

Well, she's a cute post-birth fetus from hell, if she is that.

Anyways, beside that note, I didn't really have much else to say, I'll be looking over their wealth and everything over the next week, I believe their current wealth totals around 34,000. 2 PC's, 2 Cohorts.

If they weren't adorable, then the human race would long be extinct.

[Threadnaught]

What are your wife's Character's stats?

Post up her Attributes and the exact variant of Wizard she's playing, Feat choices and levels. Then her Spellbook, then we'll be able to suggest a few Spell selections for her to cycle between until she's more comfortable with making those choices herself.

Also you should definitely get some cards for her to cycle between. I'm getting a bunch just to play the Trickster Wizard, random Spell choices all round.

Edit: Which is something that'll probably take away some of the stress playing as a Wizard seems to be causing her.

[Fallenreality]

What are your wife's Character's stats?

Post up her Attributes and the exact variant of Wizard she's playing, Feat choices and levels. Then her Spellbook, then we'll be able to suggest a few Spell selections for her to cycle between until she's more comfortable with making those choices herself.

Also you should definitely get some cards for her to cycle between. I'm getting a bunch just to play the Trickster Wizard, random Spell choices all round.

Edit: Which is something that'll probably take away some of the stress playing as a Wizard seems to be causing her.

Randomness is the exact reason I love wild magic sorcerers.

[Gwachitallemall]

Wizard:
1st Dragonmarked Shield, Ectoplasmic Armor, Endure Elements, Feather Fall, Nightshield, Shield, Targeting Ray, Tenser's Floating Disk, Mage Armor.
2nd Expose the Dead, Daggerspell Stance, Fortify Dragonmark, Phantom Foe.
3rd Mage Armor Mass, Mage Armor Greater.

Generalist Wizard 5, Rogue 1, Race Human.

Feats: Combat Casting, Rapid Reload, Least Dragonmark of Finding, Lesser Dragonmark of Finding, Protective Mark, Silent Spell.

Ability Scores: Str 12, Dex 13, Con 15, Int 18, Wis 15, Cha 15.

Knowing this was a low-op campaign from the beginning, I was very lenient on stats.

Gear is:
Hand of the Mgae
Darkweave Cloak
Gloves of Agile Striking
Ring of Sustenance
Healing Belt
Chrono Charm of the Laughing Rogue
Eternal Wand of Mage Armor
110 PP, 273 GP, 290 SP.

Skills are.. whew this is a doozy. Let's just go with basics. +12 Perception, +6 UMD, +6 Know Arcana, +6 Know Arch&Eng, +12 Sneak, +7 Concentration, +13 Disable Device

I use Perception and Sneak as combined skills instead of separate, but this is 3.5 not PF. I know I hadn't really said anything to that affect yet, but wanted to clarify that.

[Threadnaught]

Okay, thanks for including her whole character sheet, but it's really not necessary for us to have her Skills.


Generalist Wizard 5, Rogue 1, Race Human.

Okay so Spell Slots without any boosts should be.
0th:4
1st:3
2nd:2
3rd:1

Though in order to be able to cast 2nd or 3rd level Spells, grants the +1, 1st level Spell anyway.


Ability Scores: Str 12, Dex 13, Con 15, Int 18, Wis 15, Cha 15.

Okay, now the slots should be.
0th:4
1st:4
2nd:3
3rd:2


1st Dragonmarked Shield, Ectoplasmic Armor, Endure Elements, Feather Fall, Nightshield, Shield, Targeting Ray, Tenser's Floating Disk, Mage Armor.
2nd Expose the Dead, Daggerspell Stance, Fortify Dragonmark, Phantom Foe.
3rd Mage Armor Mass, Mage Armor Greater.

Get her to learn Grease, Enlarge/Reduce Person and Silent Image (1st), Mirror Image, Protection from Arrows, Rope Trick and Web (2nd), and Dispel Magic, Fly, Haste, Phantom Steed, Protection from Energy, Shrink Item and Tongues (3rd).

If she's going to be casting Mass Mage Armour, then she doesn't really need Greater Mage Armour filling up her only available slot, any Spell from the list of 3rd level Spells is a good enough replacement, except Shrink Item, that's a 1/week utility Spell for these levels. Fly is a nice defensive Spell, useful for getting around too. Protection from Energy is a good one for when you're fighting Elementals, Dragons and Evokers. Haste is decent for casting on the Fighters to end combat quickly. Phantom Steed is quick and can eventually Fly at higher levels, though it requires ranks in Ride to use well. Dispel Magic, Greater Dispel Magic and Disjunction are always useful for dealing with Magic, though Disjunction is kind of nuclear and destroys loot. Tongues is good to have ready when in a foreign land, where nobody speaks Common.

Daggerspell Dance isn't much good for pure Wizard, but seeing as she has a level in Rogue, that may help a lot. Phantom Foe is useful when there's someone to attack enemies as it causes Flanking, even better when Sneak Attack is in play with no immunities to block it.

All the Spells should cost 3300gp and fill up 33 pages of her Spellbook, which brings to mind something missing from your post.


Gear is:
Hand of the Mgae
Darkweave Cloak
Gloves of Agile Striking
Ring of Sustenance
Healing Belt
Chrono Charm of the Laughing Rogue
Eternal Wand of Mage Armor
110 PP, 273 GP, 290 SP.

No Spellbook anywhere.
The Spellbook has 100 pages to put Spells in at 1 page per Spell level/Cantrip. I'm guessing that the only Cantrips she has in her Spellbook are the Core ones viewable on the SRD? So 19 pages for Cantrips and 23 pages for the Spells she currently has access to, she has 58 pages remaining and if she learns all the Spells I've suggested, that'd leave here with 25 pages. She'd benefit from a spare Spellbook and shortly after a Blessed Book as soon as possible. Just in case she sees anything she finds interesting.


Feats: Combat Casting, Rapid Reload, Least Dragonmark of Finding, Lesser Dragonmark of Finding, Protective Mark, Silent Spell.

Combat Casting isn't the best Feat she could've chosen and until she's more comfortable with playing Wizard, she should avoid Metamagic, though she's leaning toward Arcane Trickster from her Spell selection and Class choice, so whatever, it'll be useful to the PrC.


Overall, she needs to pick up a few extremely useful Spells for each level, get something to write them into and then she should be set. I won't be able to help further with what she should prepare each day, but others might and it's also something she should get onto herself.
I've also listed defensive, buff and utility Spells, mostly for combat purposes. There are Spells to augment her stealth, like Invisibility and it's upgraded versions, Pass without a trace and Nondetection.

[Gwachitallemall]

Okay, thanks for including her whole character sheet, but it's really not necessary for us to have her Skills.



Okay so Spell Slots without any boosts should be.
0th:4
1st:3
2nd:2
3rd:1

Though in order to be able to cast 2nd or 3rd level Spells, grants the +1, 1st level Spell anyway.



Okay, now the slots should be.
0th:4
1st:4
2nd:3
3rd:2



Get her to learn Grease, Enlarge/Reduce Person and Silent Image (1st), Mirror Image, Protection from Arrows, Rope Trick and Web (2nd), and Dispel Magic, Fly, Haste, Phantom Steed, Protection from Energy, Shrink Item and Tongues (3rd).

If she's going to be casting Mass Mage Armour, then she doesn't really need Greater Mage Armour filling up her only available slot, any Spell from the list of 3rd level Spells is a good enough replacement, except Shrink Item, that's a 1/week utility Spell for these levels. Fly is a nice defensive Spell, useful for getting around too. Protection from Energy is a good one for when you're fighting Elementals, Dragons and Evokers. Haste is decent for casting on the Fighters to end combat quickly. Phantom Steed is quick and can eventually Fly at higher levels, though it requires ranks in Ride to use well. Dispel Magic, Greater Dispel Magic and Disjunction are always useful for dealing with Magic, though Disjunction is kind of nuclear and destroys loot. Tongues is good to have ready when in a foreign land, where nobody speaks Common.

Daggerspell Dance isn't much good for pure Wizard, but seeing as she has a level in Rogue, that may help a lot. Phantom Foe is useful when there's someone to attack enemies as it causes Flanking, even better when Sneak Attack is in play with no immunities to block it.

All the Spells should cost 3300gp and fill up 33 pages of her Spellbook, which brings to mind something missing from your post.



No Spellbook anywhere.
The Spellbook has 100 pages to put Spells in at 1 page per Spell level/Cantrip. I'm guessing that the only Cantrips she has in her Spellbook are the Core ones viewable on the SRD? So 19 pages for Cantrips and 23 pages for the Spells she currently has access to, she has 58 pages remaining and if she learns all the Spells I've suggested, that'd leave here with 25 pages. She'd benefit from a spare Spellbook and shortly after a Blessed Book as soon as possible. Just in case she sees anything she finds interesting.



Combat Casting isn't the best Feat she could've chosen and until she's more comfortable with playing Wizard, she should avoid Metamagic, though she's leaning toward Arcane Trickster from her Spell selection and Class choice, so whatever, it'll be useful to the PrC.


Overall, she needs to pick up a few extremely useful Spells for each level, get something to write them into and then she should be set. I won't be able to help further with what she should prepare each day, but others might and it's also something she should get onto herself.
I've also listed defensive, buff and utility Spells, mostly for combat purposes. There are Spells to augment her stealth, like Invisibility and it's upgraded versions, Pass without a trace and Nondetection.

Sorry, I was just looking at the magical items. There's a spell book, spell component pouch, a couple of thieves tools, some masterwork, a healers kit and a repair kit. I think I covered everything there.

She could also use an Aureon Spellshard instead of a spellbook, as we're running in Eberron. Those run.. hmm, I don't have the price listed, but I believe they run in the 4-10K range.

She also already knows the mass majority of all of the languages, having invested 9 skillpoints into languages and her +4 int covering another 4. At least any of the languages that she's likely to come across. So tongues isn't needed.

The metamagic feat she has is a bonus feat, so that in and of itself is fine.

She also has any 0 level spells that are in the Spell Compendium, if that changes anything.

[Threadnaught]

Sorry, I was just looking at the magical items. There's a spell book, spell component pouch, a couple of thieves tools, some masterwork, a healers kit and a repair kit. I think I covered everything there.


She also has any 0 level spells that are in the Spell Compendium, if that changes anything.

Okay then, Spellbook has 50 pages remaining then. She should seek a new book as she attempts to find and learn new Spells.
I forgot to mention on the subject of Magic Items, for her to find the other Chronocharms as they can all be equipped at once and are rather useful.


She could also use an Aureon Spellshard instead of a spellbook, as we're running in Eberron. Those run.. hmm, I don't have the price listed, but I believe they run in the 4-10K range.

Eberron Campaign Setting, I've checked it and it holds up to 500 Spell levels for the price of 6250gp, a Blessed Book holds 1000 Spell levels for the price of 12500gp. Neither item has a Scribing cost.
Two Aureon Spellshards have the exact same cost and function of a single Blessed Book, though it may be more beneficial to go for multiple storage units for Spells just in case the DM decides to be a jerk and break a Spellbook. :smalltongue:


She also already knows the mass majority of all of the languages, having invested 9 skillpoints into languages and her +4 int covering another 4. At least any of the languages that she's likely to come across. So tongues isn't needed.

Yeah I see that, 14/20 from the SRD, she could know every Core Language and have a Skill Point to spare the next level, she's certainly well prepared for Diplomacy. Perhaps she should put points into Bluff and Diplomacy, if this isn't something she's willing to do, perhaps the Sorcerer should and she should still pick up Tongues as it is a Touch Spell, and would help the other player by granting resources they wouldn't otherwise have.


The metamagic feat she has is a bonus feat, so that in and of itself is fine.

Of course, it's either that, an Item Crafting Feat, or a Variant. If you have Races of Destiny, the Chameleon PrC is pretty cool, it gets a Bonus Feat at 2nd level which can be used for any Feat the Character qualifies for at the beginning of each day. Yes, a swappable Feat.


Your wife won't be playing at Tippy level, but if she takes these suggestions and works them into her character, she'll be able to outperform everyone else in the party, without overshadowing them.

[Gwachitallemall]

No I don't have races of destiny, the books I have so far, at least in print instead of computer, which I'm trying to discourage computers at the playing table, are-

PHB1 x2, New edition.
MM1, New edition
SPC, New Edition
DMG, New Edition
MIC, New edition (Was cheaper than buying an old copy. And cooler looking.)
Complete Warrior, Mage, Arcane, Psionic.
Expanded Psionic Handbook
Every single Eberron book, even the Adventurer's guide which is pure fluff, and all 5 of the adventure modules.

Next in line are the other 4 completes, and dungeonscape, in no particular order.

Forgot to add in I own Unearthed Arcana, too. Not that it really matters. Was needed to allow the Chaotic Neutral going either Chaotic good or Chaotic Evil sorcerer access to Paladin for Abjurant champion.

[Threadnaught]

No I don't have races of destiny, the books I have so far, at least in print instead of computer, which I'm trying to discourage computers at the playing table, are-

PHB1 x2, New edition.
MM1, New edition
SPC, New Edition
DMG, New Edition
MIC, New edition (Was cheaper than buying an old copy. And cooler looking.)
Complete Warrior, Mage, Arcane, Psionic.
Expanded Psionic Handbook
Every single Eberron book, even the Adventurer's guide which is pure fluff, and all 5 of the adventure modules.

Next in line are the other 4 completes, and dungeonscape, in no particular order.

I suggest PHB2 for the Celerity line and a few other nice Spells. Also for Rebuilding to give each player the opportunity to fix any mistakes they feel they may have made. Even stuff that isn't a mistake, but they want to improve at a later level, like how I'll be with Elven Generalist (Races of the Wild) Bonus Feats.

[Andezzar]

I suggest PHB2 for the Celerity line and a few other nice Spells.Celerity (especially with daze immunity) is pretty close to the other end of the optimization spectrum, I'm not sure if the DM is up for that.

Also for Rebuilding to give each player the opportunity to fix any mistakes they feel they may have made. Even stuff that isn't a mistake, but they want to improve at a later level, like how I'll be with Elven Generalist (Races of the Wild) Bonus Feats.One different bonus feat is hardly a big step. I find the first substitution level of the Elf Wizard is all I'll ever want.

[Gwachitallemall]

PHB2 will be at the lower end of my purchase list, currently trying to convince myself to fork over 60$(!) for Complete Champion. It hasn't happened yet that I've convinced myself. Celerity with daze immunity isn't too bad, it's when you get celerity and timestop with the dragonmark feat mark of the dauntless that it starts to get silly.

[Doxkid]

Has the Wizard played Pen&Paper 3.5 before? If so what did she play as? It seems odd that she is playing one of the difficult/powerful classes without familiarity with spells/magic.

I would expect history as a low level Bard or possibly a Warlock or some kind of multiclass character, if not as a 'mundane' character. An alternative that I would also expect would be her reading D&D novels/books; those have some weird advice/examples in them, but that ould explain where Combat Casting came from.

[Gwachitallemall]

Previous player experience, she's the one that is not the new player, was as a rogue mostly.

The other player who is the sorcerer, and the new player, has only played as an artificer.

I myself am the DM, and have played mostly divine casting classes, I've never touched an arcane casting class, which is why I had to come looking for help for her. Druid or cleric advice, not a problem. Sorcerer and wizard advice, I have to look it up.

[Threadnaught]

PHB2 will be at the lower end of my purchase list, currently trying to convince myself to fork over 60$(!) for Complete Champion.

Ouch, it may help to have an upper limit. In addition having multiple sources to purchase through helps to find the best possible prices.

I think I could purchase Complete Champion as well as a second Tome of Battle for £10 each from a nearby shop. Both in excellent condition.

[Gwachitallemall]

Ouch, it may help to have an upper limit. In addition having multiple sources to purchase through helps to find the best possible prices.

I think I could purchase Complete Champion as well as a second Tome of Battle for £10 each from a nearby shop. Both in excellent condition.

Hmm. Both of those online are running in the 50-60$ range. The two places I look at tend to keep their prices fairly near to each other, Half Price books and Amazon. I've had two other places I can look at, but one of them no longer exists (Was demolished this year sometime) and the other one is about a 4 hour drive away. 10 Euros is about 20$, is it not? So a 1/3rd of the price of what I can find. My upper limit has sat right around 35$, being 5$ more than when they came out. So until those two books, Complete Champion and Complete Scoundrel, drop back to that range, I won't purchase them.

[Solaris]

You can sometimes find 'em for lower prices on eBay. That's where I got a lot of my books.

[Threadnaught]

Hmm. Both of those online are running in the 50-60$ range. The two places I look at tend to keep their prices fairly near to each other, Half Price books and Amazon. I've had two other places I can look at, but one of them no longer exists (Was demolished this year sometime) and the other one is about a 4 hour drive away. 10 Euros is about 20$, is it not? So a 1/3rd of the price of what I can find. My upper limit has sat right around 35$, being 5$ more than when they came out. So until those two books, Complete Champion and Complete Scoundrel, drop back to that range, I won't purchase them.

I don't know much about Euros, but I do know that they're worthless* than the Pound.
Google tells me that £10 is worth €12.84 or $15.58 so I wouldn't have been far off with my original guess.

I try to stick to a maximum of £30, which only Tome of Battle has currently exceeded, it's taken me three years to amass a collection of 20 books.

If you have someone who could order them for you, that could potentially save you a decent amount of money. I have my main supplier, two shops a short bus ride away and I use the well known websites that let people buy stuff.
Cheap enough to fall under my price limit, near perfect condition for all but one. Magic Item Compendium premium edition, that one was in mint condition. Used now, somehow has a scratch over the dragon potion thing.


*That's not a mistake, I meant that.

[Gwachitallemall]

I Misread the pound, thought it was a euro, I don't deal with those enough, I should've known better, heh. So, 10 Pounds, is 15 dollars.. yeah, I've avoided going over 40$, I'll definitely check evil bay, although I don't like using it.

I think we've kind of went past the thread intentions though, so let's get back to the original premise. Helping with these two characters, I think the two cohorts are alright, they're both fighter 5's, warforged, one with an offensive focus the other with a defensive focus.

[Threadnaught]

I think we've kind of went past the thread intentions though, so let's get back to the original premise. Helping with these two characters, I think the two cohorts are alright, they're both fighter 5's, warforged, one with an offensive focus the other with a defensive focus.

You have the problem that your players' characters are low on the scale of optimization. Having access to certain books gives more varied content that is both flavourful and powerful.
We're suggesting cheaper (and legal) ways to get access to said content, which in the case of PHB2, is a massive benefit to both players as it provides them with a way to tweak their characters and experiment with stuff using Retraining and Rebuilding.

I don't have many ideas of how to help them out beyond what I've already mentioned and finding additional books.

I think this thread is done with me. :smallbiggrin:

[Gwachitallemall]

Yeah, they are really low.. let's see, I have the fighters which are right now out optimizing the party around here somewhere.

Notice, there's a few things that'll seem weird, but that's because some house rules have been implemented for scaling AC/DR/Natural Armor, as well as attack/damage bonuses.

Those follow-

Assume all feats that grant a skill bonus grant +2 at 1 HD, +3 at 5, with an additional +1 every 5 HD later.
Toughness now does what Improved Toughness does, 5 HP +1 per level.
Improved Toughness now grants a +1 natural armor and DR, +1 per 5 HD.
Dodge now does Dodge now grants a constant +1 Dodge bonus to AC, which increases by 1 at every 5 HD. This bonus doubles when moving through threatened areas.

Weapon Focus gives +1 Attack at 1 HD, increases by 1 at 5, 10, 15, 20. (Everything else should have these same numbers)
Weapon Specialization gives 2 damage at 1 HD, increasing by 2 at 5, 10 15 20.
Greater of both of these doubles the bonus.

That's the main ones, although this one also comes to mind.
Defensive casting is just something that happens.
Combat casting now gives a +4 Concentration all the time, and makes it if you fail at defensive casting you don't lose the spell.

These were all borrowed from extensive playtesting from other areas, so they do work.

Here's their stats, should be able to tell which is offensive and which is defensive.

Striker, Level 5 Warforged, Warforged Substitution level 1,2,4. Features: Battle Hardenend, Adamantine Body, Overload Metabolism, Weapon Focus Armblade, Body as Weapon, Dodge.
16 Str, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 11, Wis 8, Cha 6.
+1 Armblade. 53 HP, +4 Initative, 21 AC, +10 Attack 1d10 +6.

Tank, Level 5 Warforged, Warforged Substitution Level 1 only. Features: Adamantine Body, Battle Hardened, Toughness, Shocking Slam, Heavy Armor Optimization (Another item that stacks AC bonuses and armor check penalty decreases), Improved Toughness.
14 Str, 10 Dex, 18 Con, 9 Wis, 13 Int, 6 Cha.
+1 Battlefist. 66 HP, +3 Initiative, 21 AC, +8 Attack, 1d8+3.

And now I do realize what everyone was trying with the books, I was just worried it wasn't on track and I see it is, thanks for that.