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View Full Version : Feat Help with my Warblade Please



Thrawn183
2007-03-30, 11:53 AM
I have currently finished endeavoring to build a warblade "tank." My intention was to concentrate on AC and HP, while keeping just enough damage potential to force enemies to actually pay attention to him. I wanted to make a halfling or gnome grizzled veteran to counterpoint the halflings and gnomes that seem to always get portrayed in the games I play in. My build, which follows, is (outside of Book of 9 Swords) almost 100% core.
I'm writing to all of you for help with non-core feats (for a version compatable with DM's that will allow more non-core material): I don't really know what feats to give a sword and board melee'r that uses weapon finesse. I don't really know what could mesh with this character and really seem logical.

Gnome Warblade 12 (28 pt. buy), After items and boosts from level.
Str 8 (8)
Dex 16 (22)
Con 18 (23)
Int 14 (16)
Wis 8 (8)
Cha 8 (8)
Maneuvers Known: Moment of Perfect Mind, Stone Bones, Steel Wind, Action Before Thought, Leading the Charge, Insightful Strike, Iron Heart Surge, Lightning Recovery, Bonesplitting Strike, Dancing Blade Form, Greater Insightful Strike, Iron Heart Endurance
Equipment: +3 Mithral Chain Shirt, +1 Diamond Mind, Iron Heart Adamantine Rapier, +3 Large Mithral Shield, +1 Amulet of Natural Armor, +1 Ring of Protection, +4 Gloves of Dexterity, +4 Vest of Health, +2 Headband of Intellect, Brooch of Shielding, Hero's Handy Haversack, Tunic of Steady Spellcasting.
Feats: Improved Toughness, Weapon Focus (Rapier), Weapon Finesse, Improved Critical, Improved Initiative, Blade Meditation

I know that when people usually start threads like this they always ask for the accompanying stats and equipment, hopefully I've provided sufficient information. If I haven't, just ask me for what you'd like to know and I'll post it.

If you would like to see the build in its entirety (all stats, damage etc. calculated) just PM me with an e-mail address and I'll send it to you as an attached word document. After all, I might as well give something back to the community that has given me so much help and assistance of late.

Fax Celestis
2007-03-30, 11:55 AM
I would have gone Dwarf instead of Gnome, and gone into the Deepstone Sentinel PrC.

Thrawn183
2007-03-30, 12:01 PM
As far as races are concerned.
Mechanically anything that gives a boost to Dexterity or Constitution at the cost of Strength, Wisdom or Charisma works well.
Fluff-wise, I needed an annoying rogue race like halflings or the humanoid cannonball gnomes.

I readilly accept that the Deepstone Sentinel may have been the most optimal way of doing this but I needed something that used only a single base class (and I don't know nearly as much about the Bo9S prestige classes :smalltongue: )

Though if you would like to work with me towards making a different version of the build that goes into Deepstone Sentinel I'd be honored to take you up on the challenge.

storybookknight
2007-03-30, 12:32 PM
Just curious... this is a tank build, yes? Where is the damage coming from, if you only have a strength of 8? I can see a low-strength swordsage, using maneuvers for damage...

Thrawn183
2007-03-30, 01:09 PM
Insightful Strike replaces your damage roll with a concentration check. Greater Insightful Strike replaces your damage roll with 2x concentration check. So this character averages about 77 damage on his first standard action in combat. Maxed Ranks (15) + Con (6) + tunic (5) +d20 (10.5) +Blade Meditation (2) = 38.5

This allowed me to make a build that doesn't rely on strength for damage or to-hit: allowing me to concentrate all my stats on hp, ac, etc. (Constitution and Dexterity). It's kind of the whole bit where THF is better than TWF unless you find some additional source of damage like sneak attack. In this case its just relying on the Insightful Strikes.

When I realized this was possible, I looked around a bit but didn't see any builds that had taken advantage of it, so I took on the duty myself :smallcool:

Jimp
2007-03-30, 01:21 PM
Won't your attacks be limited by your Maneuvers/combat? Unless you invest in the Adaptive Style feat, that is.

Thrawn183
2007-03-30, 01:30 PM
Warblades can recover maneuvers with a swift action followed by a standard action (which is wasted with this build). It ends up being around 100 damage done through the insightful strikes every three rounds. Nothing to beat my chest over, but then again, I never claimed that this build deals out impressive damage, only enough to get a monster's attention and hold it on him.

So no, there is no need for a warblade to take adaptive style.

But what feats will actually make this guy/gal more effective? I don't particularly need feats to increase damage, I'm really drawing a blank here.

Fax Celestis
2007-03-30, 01:30 PM
Warblades have swift action recovery of all maneuvers, so no, not really.

martyboy74
2007-03-30, 01:43 PM
Warblades have swift action recovery of all maneuvers, so no, not really.
Actually, it's a swift action followed by either a melee attack or a standard action used to do nothing. So, techinically, although you can't memorize a maneuver multiple times, you can still use your attack with Insightful Strike to get it back. Of course, you can only regenerate it once per round.

Fako
2007-03-30, 02:14 PM
I don't have the book on me at the moment, but there is a feat that allows you to swap BAB for temporary hit points (I think it's Stone Power or the like...). You might want to look at that if you plan on being the one attacked every round.

Thrawn183
2007-03-30, 02:16 PM
Actually, I'm pretty sure you can't use that standard action to use a maneuver. I'm not certain, but from reading the forums on WoTC (I actually read all 44 pages of of the tome of battle tricks compendium, yeah I'm that cool :cool: ) that's the impression I've come away with. Kinda sad, but I'm willing to roll with it.

Edit: From the phrasing of Stone Power, I'm not sure it works with a Diamond Mind Maneuver. Which, again, is kinda sad because this character actually has the attack bonus to play around with a bit. I'd probably look at combat expertise at 15th level if I ever actually get a chance to play this character but I'm not a fan of it, at least not right now.

Fako
2007-03-30, 02:27 PM
Just grabbed the book (go, go laziness!), and you're right, it won't work with the maneuver. However, you can use it when you recover your maneuver.

It works with an attack action, which can be part of the recovery method for Warblades. You could use it to gain a bit of extra time when you're waiting to strike...

You could use White Raven Defense to add a little more AC to your build.

Person_Man
2007-03-30, 02:35 PM
Gnomes are a really weak race. If you want to play one for fluff reasons, at least use a Whisper Gnome (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=3).

Be sure you can carry your armor and equipment without a move penalty. If you can't, then Str 8 isn't enough.

If you're your character's offense is built around Insightful Strike, I suggest 1 level of the Exemplar PrC from Comp Adventurer. It will give you +4 to any one Skill, and the ability to Take 10 under any circumstances on Int bonus +1 Skills. Combined with Skill Focus, which is required for entry into the class, it should push your Insightful Strike damage up considerably.

I think your feat selection is quite bad. Since your Dex is so high, you may wish to focus on AoOs. I suggest:


Skill Focus (Concentration): If you're using Exemplar as well, this will give you a total of +7 to your Concentration checks, and the ability to Take 10. Note that there are also Maneuvers which allow you to replace Saves with Concentration checks.

Combat Reflexes: More AoOs

Hold the Line (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/divineFeats.html) (CWar): Free AoO whenever an enemy charges you, resolved before they attack.

Dodge: Required for...

Karmic Strike (PHBII): If your enemy hits you, you get a free AoO. Perfect when combined with...

Evasive Reflexes (ToB): 5' step instead of taking an AoO


So, your enemy charges you're armed with a reach weapon. You get 2 AoO, one from him moving through your threatened area, and one from Hold the Line. You use Evasive Reflexes with both AoO, and take two 5' steps to the left or right, foiling your enemy's charge.

Or let's say your enemy is standing next to you and is about to make a full attack. Well then, you activate Karmic Strike. The first time he hits you, he provokes an AoO (sadly resolved after he hits you). But you take a 5' step, thus foiling most full attacks.

Congratulations, you're now obscenely difficult to charge and attack, and it all happens automatically.

Fax Celestis
2007-03-30, 02:38 PM
Gnomes are a really weak race. If you want to play one for fluff reasons, at least use a Whisper Gnome (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=3).

Be sure you can carry your armor and equipment without a move penalty. If you can't, then Str 8 isn't enough.

If you're your character's offense is built around Insightful Strike, I suggest 1 level of the Exemplar PrC from Comp Adventurer. It will give you +4 to any one Skill, and the ability to Take 10 under any circumstances on Int bonus +1 Skills. Combined with Skill Focus, which is required for entry into the class, it should push your Insightful Strike damage up considerably.

I think your feat selection is quite bad. Since your Dex is so high, you may wish to focus on AoOs. I suggest:


Skill Focus (Concentration): If you're using Exemplar as well, this will give you a total of +7 to your Concentration checks, and the ability to Take 10. Note that there are also Maneuvers which allow you to replace Saves with Concentration checks.

Combat Reflexes: More AoOs

Hold the Line (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/divineFeats.html) (CWar): Free AoO whenever an enemy charges you, resolved before they attack.

Dodge: Required for...

Karmic Strike (PHBII): If your enemy hits you, you get a free AoO. Perfect when combined with...

Evasive Reflexes (ToB): 5' step instead of taking an AoO


So, your enemy charges you're armed with a reach weapon. You get 2 AoO, one from him moving through your threatened area, and one from Hold the Line. You use Evasive Reflexes with both AoO, and take two 5' steps to the left or right, foiling your enemy's charge.

Or let's say your enemy is standing next to you and is about to make a full attack. Well then, you activate Karmic Strike. The first time he hits you, he provokes an AoO (sadly resolved after he hits you). But you take a 5' step, thus foiling most full attacks.

Congratulations, you're now obscenely difficult to charge and attack, and it all happens automatically.

Going that route, I'd grab more maneuvers from Setting Sun than from Stone Dragon, myself, and would go Swordsage.

Thrawn183
2007-03-30, 02:53 PM
Gnomes are a really weak race. If you want to play one for fluff reasons, at least use a Whisper Gnome (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=3).

Be sure you can carry your armor and equipment without a move penalty. If you can't, then Str 8 isn't enough.
<snip>
I think your feat selection is quite bad. Since your Dex is so high, you may wish to focus on AoOs. I suggest:


Skill Focus (Concentration): If you're using Exemplar as well, this will give you a total of +7 to your Concentration checks, and the ability to Take 10. Note that there are also Maneuvers which allow you to replace Saves with Concentration checks.

Combat Reflexes: More AoOs

Hold the Line (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/divineFeats.html) (CWar): Free AoO whenever an enemy charges you, resolved before they attack.

Dodge: Required for...

Karmic Strike (PHBII): If your enemy hits you, you get a free AoO. Perfect when combined with...

Evasive Reflexes (ToB): 5' step instead of taking an AoO


I specifically checked the weight of all items carried and having so much mithral equipment keeps it within the light load limit.

Unfortunately, this build manages to do an amazing d4 damage per hit. That is an unfortunate side effect of using a small sized rapier w/out power attacking and having a strength penalty. This also makes it kind of pointless to spend feats on getting those attacks of opportunity.

Evasive reflexes is very interesting. Unfortunately I need this guy to actually stand between things and the squishies, not just jump out of the way and let them get slaughtered.

Person_Man
2007-03-30, 05:03 PM
Unfortunately, this build manages to do an amazing d4 damage per hit. That is an unfortunate side effect of using a small sized rapier w/out power attacking and having a strength penalty. This also makes it kind of pointless to spend feats on getting those attacks of opportunity.

Evasive reflexes is very interesting. Unfortunately I need this guy to actually stand between things and the squishies, not just jump out of the way and let them get slaughtered.

Well, with this build you'll never actually take an AoO, you'll just constantly frustrate your enemies using Evasive Reflexes, which requires Combat Reflexes so that you can do it many times per turn. Then you hit them back with Greater Insightful Strike.

But if you need to stop your enemies, and not just tie up all their attacks, then playing a Small race is a phenomenally bad idea. Using a Dwarf as Fax suggested would be a good idea, as would a Human with the right Trip combo.

Annarrkkii
2007-03-30, 07:21 PM
Actually, I'm pretty sure you can't use that standard action to use a maneuver. I'm not certain, but from reading the forums on WoTC (I actually read all 44 pages of of the tome of battle tricks compendium, yeah I'm that cool :cool: ) that's the impression I've come away with. Kinda sad, but I'm willing to roll with it.


You would be correct. "You cannot initiate a maneuver or a change your stance while you are recovering your maneuvers..." (ToB 22).

That said, a Warblade with 8 Str and manuevers like Bonesplitting Strike is foolish. Maneuvers like that, with unusual, non-damage effects, allow saves, and for Tiger Claw, Stone Dragon, and Iron Heart, those DCs are in the area of 14+Str. Modifier. You're grabbing abilities at high level that have DC 13 saves...

ImperiousLeader
2007-03-30, 08:21 PM
IMHO, A High DEX Warblade should be going for TWF and getting damage from Stormguard Warrior. Focus on Diamond Mind and Tiger Claw maneuvers. Avalanche of Blades, for example, is really good for Combat Rhythm. Also look at White Raven for AoO stopping strikes and the like. There's very little in Stone Dragon that will help you, and only a handful of Iron Heart maneuvers.

Another option that will at least enhance damage is to get Shadow Blade, so you can use DEX for damage, though that requires some two feats and limits you to a Shadow Hand Stance.

Must you play gnome? A Dwarven Deepstone Sentinel is a much better tank, as he can make the terrain around him difficult, making him harder to ignore.

I really don't think the damage potential of Greater Insightful Strike is gonna be enough.

Fax Celestis
2007-03-30, 08:40 PM
Warblade 5/Knight 3/Deepstone Sentinel 5/Dwarven Defender 7: the Ultimate In Immobile Destruction.

Annarrkkii
2007-03-30, 09:54 PM
Quite. However, still doesn't help him engineer this gnome. As he seems bent on it's gnomehood remaining, despite the fact that it is a less-than-prudent decision. He also seems to plan on staying straight Warblade—a likewise underachieving tank—but that's his character. As such, I think it's better if you put your immense gaming knowledge to use in optimizing what he's going for, as opposed to proposing alternatives.

That said. Higher strength is a must. Honestly, it's either that or switch to Swordsage. Warblade's rely on straight tanking too heavily to be undercut by low strength, and some of their most kickass high-level powers have Strength-based DCs. You're really hamstringing yourself by trying to tank with 8 strength.

Now. Gnomes make better Swordsages than Warblades. However, as you seem hellbent on Warblade, I suggest you do as you have done, to a degree, and grab more than a few Diamond Mind abilities, and look into Two-Weapon Fighting with the help of Tiger Claw. Stone Dragon will help you only as far as stances—as too many abilities rely on Strength-based DCs. Giant's Stance and others help you hold your ground when other smallfolk would be overrun (Swordsages have access too Stone Dragon, too, you know).

Iron Heart has some stances that will help you with reach issues, and offers a few strikes that have no DCs and instead allow some serious ownage through slightly circuitous tactics.

My recommendations? TWF with the strongest weapon pairing you can find for few or no feats—I'd suggest battleaxe and light hammer, or perhaps bastard sword and kukri. If you think you want to compensate for pathetic strength via Finesse, as you suggested, then I'd choose the Spiked Chain (despite its controversial design and, in fact, existence), and optimize your reach with Dancing Blade Form. Lacking Setting Sun, that size penalty is going to be hard to compensate for, so your best bet is to grab a few Stone Dragon stances. Others to watch out for include Pearl of Black Doubt (for the AC monger) and Leaping Dragon Stance (which can allow for an alternative form of mobility for the vertically challenged). Avoid anything with Strength-based DCs, which means most Stone Dragon strikes and several Tiger Claw and Iron Heart strikes.

Or you could just take a lot of weight of your Intelligence score, and pack it instead onto your strength score...

ImperiousLeader
2007-03-31, 12:05 AM
Okay, a Gnome Warblade 12, not changing stats. I'm not working out a full Maneuver progression, I'm simply listing a few must-haves. [] - Bracketed feats are Warblade Bonus feats.

Option 1: TWFer
Feats: Weapon Finesse, Two-Weapon Fighting, [Ironheat Aura], Stormguard Warrior, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, [Combat Reflexes], Robilar's Gambit
Maneuvers: Dancing Mongoose, Pouncing Charge, Blood in the Water.
Notes: This is a fair Damage dealer. You have five attacks, convert 1 full attack into touch attacks, and you'll get +25 damage on each attack next round. Aside from Dancing Mongoose and Pouncing Charge, you won't need many strikes, you'll be using full attacks, so the rest of your readied maneuvers will be Diamond Mind counters and Iron Heart Surge. Use a set of Keen Kukris as weapons, their large crit range will help power Blood in the Water.

Option 2: Area Control
Feats: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain), Weapon Finesse, [Combat Reflexes], Martial Study (Crusader's Strike), Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades), [Ironheart Aura], Stormguard Warrior
Maneuvers: Greater Insightful Strike, Covering Strike
Notes: This option grabs a few choice options from the Devoted Spirit Discipline, giving you a healing strike, and a stance that allows you to take AoOs against foes that make 5ft. steps within your reach. Stormguard isn't as impressive, but you can still trade out your lower iterative attacks for a small damage boost, and you can generate a lot of AoOs given the area you control.

Annarrkkii
2007-03-31, 06:46 AM
Sorry, ImperiousLeader, but it specifically says that not even feats or items can grant maneuvers of other disciplines to Initiators who don't have access to them. So Warblades can't take Martial Study or Martial Stance for Devoted Spirit, Shadow Hand, Setting Sun, Desert Wind, and the like.

ImperiousLeader
2007-03-31, 08:03 AM
You'll have to quote the passage that says that, because the feats specifically say what happens when a Martial Adept selects them, and make no mention that they must be from their own disciplines.