Honey Badger?

[Joe Eskimo]

Is there an official sourcebook where I can find a honey badger? If not, what's the closest thing to one? Standard badger? Dire Badger? Wolverine? I kinda want one as an animal companion or wild cohort.

[Palanan]

I've been meaning to work up one of these after seeing a Nature documentary a year or so ago. They're pretty amazing creatures.

In the meantime the standard 3.5 badger would probably do in a pinch, although it falls far short of all their most interesting qualities. The Pathfinder badger, oddly enough, is a little weak by comparison. You'd want to amp up the Will save in either case, to reflect their mad persistence to Get What They Want.

.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Honey badger don't need no stats. Honey badger don't care!

More seriously, I'd slap something like magebred and other templates onto a standard badger to get something close. Worst case scenario, dire badger should do.

[Seerow]

There's nothing official that I'm aware of. I made a Dire Honey Badger for a campaign a while back though. Basically took a Dire Badger, advanced its HD to max (9), and along the way it gained a size category (up to large). Then I gave it a custom template for something like DR10/-, Fast Healing 15, and a bunch of immunities (specifically I remember Poison, Paralysis, Stun, Fear, and Energy Drain). I think I may have slapped a climb speed onto it as well, because I seem to remember a honey badger chasing stuff up trees in some documentary or another. I pegged it at around CR 7, but your mileage may vary.

[Mystral]

Is there an official sourcebook where I can find a honey badger? If not, what's the closest thing to one? Standard badger? Dire Badger? Wolverine? I kinda want one as an animal companion or wild cohort.

Just scale down the Tarrasque to small.

[Spider_Jerusalem]

Dude, just refluff Pun Pun. Your players will never notice the difference.

Edit: Ninja'd. Kinda.
(And damn, my avatar's gone. Time for a new one, I guess)

[Jeff the Green]

Uh, no. Honey badgers are tough and smart, but they're not so much tougher than regular badgers that they deserve immunities or DR. In fact I think the only think I'd give them is maybe a slight upgrade to natural armor and a bonus to Intimidate. (Lions and such leave them alone not so much because they don't think they can't kill and eat the things, but because they know it will put up a fight and you don't want to fight anything as a predator.) While they mostly don't have to worry about snake venom, neither do a lot of animals that eat snakes (like American badgers). Llikewise American badgers have been known to fight ridiculously one-sided fights and win (and for my money successfully fighting off a grizzly bear (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RqJFza3sbE) is more impressive than fighting off a lion).

Really, don't mess with any mustelid.

[Seerow]

Uh, no. Honey badgers are tough and smart, but they're not so much tougher than regular badgers that they deserve immunities or DR. In fact I think the only think I'd give them is maybe a slight upgrade to natural armor and a bonus to Intimidate. (Lions and such leave them alone not so much because they don't think they can't kill and eat the things, but because they know it will put up a fight and you don't want to fight anything as a predator.) While they mostly don't have to worry about snake venom, neither do a lot of animals that eat snakes (like American badgers). Llikewise American badgers have been known to fight ridiculously one-sided fights and win (and for my money successfully fighting off a grizzly bear (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RqJFza3sbE) is more impressive than fighting off a lion).

Really, don't mess with any mustelid.

honey badger don't care about your logic and reason

[Jeff the Green]

honey badger don't care about your logic and reason

Well, yes, but only because honey badger are meme that shouldn't be statted since it are supposed to be indestructible. Honey badgers are real creatures that are all too capable of being slain by mostly-naked monkeys (http://www.honeybadger.com/conservation.html), and their conservation hasn't exactly been helped by the attention they've had over the last few years.

[Spider_Jerusalem]

Well, if you actually want to stat a real honey badger and not the meme one, I think you can use the standard badger, maybe give it one or two extra HD, some extra strength and poison resistance? If you want to portray the thing as especially vicious, you could give it the boar's ferocity or whatever.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Jeff the Green
Well, yes, but only because honey badger are meme that shouldn't be statted since it are supposed to be indestructible.

Is the grammar part of the meme somehow?


Originally Posted by Jeff the Green
Honey badgers are real creatures that are all too capable of being slain by mostly-naked monkeys....

The first sentence of the linked page is outdated and incorrect. Honey badgers are on the IUCN Red List as Least Concern (http://www.iucnredlist.org/details/41629/0).

[Jeff the Green]

Is the grammar part of the meme somehow?

Well, yes. "Honey badger don't care."


The first sentence of the linked page is outdated and incorrect. Honey badgers are on the IUCN Red List as Least Concern (http://www.iucnredlist.org/details/41629/0).
Same thing. When a species is said to be "listed" it usually means it's somewhere between Extinct and Near Threatened, though it can also mean between Critically Endangered and Threatened. For something to be truly unlisted it'd need to be so new to science they hadn't even put it in Not Evaluated yet.

[Zanos]

Well, yes, but only because honey badger are meme that shouldn't be statted since it are supposed to be indestructible. Honey badgers are real creatures that are all too capable of being slain by mostly-naked monkeys (http://www.honeybadger.com/conservation.html), and their conservation hasn't exactly been helped by the attention they've had over the last few years.
http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/279/147/b60.jpg


Dire badger is probably fine if you want to make it irritating. Ferocity goes a long way.

[Jeff the Green]

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/279/147/b60.jpg

Look on the bright side: I'm not subjecting you to a tirade about the gross misuse of the adjective "dire" when used to describe animals. :smallbiggrin:


Dire badger is probably fine if you want to make it irritating. Ferocity goes a long way.

If you go this route, please shrink it back down to small. They really never break three feet in length or one foot in height.

[Joe Eskimo]

Thanks for all the replies. What's your take on the wolverine? They have a climb speed and are bigger than a standard badger, problem is the lower AC: 14 compared to the badger's 15 or the dire badger's 16.

[Mystral]

Thanks for all the replies. What's your take on the wolverine? They have a climb speed and are bigger than a standard badger, problem is the lower AC: 14 compared to the badger's 15 or the dire badger's 16.

In all seriousness: Scale down the wolverine to small, give it a bit more natural armor and you should be good to go.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Joe Eskimo
What's your take on the wolverine?


Originally Posted by Mystral
Scale down the wolverine to small, give it a bit more natural armor and you should be good to go.

Probably the best solution in a pinch, although I'd still ratchet up the Will save somehow--maybe give it Iron Will as a bonus feat.




Originally Posted by Jeff the Green
Same thing.

In fact it's not remotely the same thing. The linked page stated they weren't listed at all, which is incorrect; they were evaluated during the 2008 GMA and assessed as Least Concern. That's a distinct category.


Originally Posted by Jeff the Green
When a species is said to be "listed"….

When a species is listed that means it's been assessed by experts in the field according to an extremely detailed protocol. That's the opposite of "not listed."


Originally Posted by Jeff the Green
For something to be truly unlisted it'd need to be so new to science…

…like some of the species I've done fieldwork on. When all you have is the holotype and a vague location, "new to science" can be a real hassle.

[Chronos]

Given that a dire badger is almost identical to a wolverine, I expect that a "wolverine scaled down to small" would just be a badger.

[Jeff the Green]

In fact it's not remotely the same thing. The linked page stated they weren't listed at all, which is incorrect; they were evaluated during the 2008 GMA and assessed as Least Concern. That's a distinct category.

I misread the article (I didn't notice it specifies the 2001 IUCN Red List); however, it is fairly common to colloquially describe something that's Least Concern as "unlisted", terminology borrowed from how we talk about the Endangered Species Act. (E.g. a friend of mine describes American crows, the subject of his research, as "unlisted" when he's not actually writing a paper, even though they're in the IUCN as Least Concern.) The other information is still accurate; it's still Appendix III of CITES, it's still protected in parts of South Africa, and it's still killed frequently enough that its survival in parts of its range is questionable even if it doesn't meet any of the higher risk IUCN categories.

[Tarlek Flamehai]

You should check this out: http://www.slate.com/blogs/quora/2013/10/24/animal_fights_can_a_honey_badger_win_a_fight_with_ a_wolverine.html

It's quite the interesting read.

[Jeff the Green]

You should check this out: http://www.slate.com/blogs/quora/2013/10/24/animal_fights_can_a_honey_badger_win_a_fight_with_ a_wolverine.html

It's quite the interesting read.

This line causes me to discount it, though:

In my opinion, honey badger would either rip off the wolverines genitalia, thus causing it to bleed to death, or both would die via prolonged mutual mutilation.

There isn't any actual evidence that they do this. It hasn't been filmed, it hasn't been photographed, and it hasn't been reported in the literature by a scientist who's seen it. If the author isn't aware of this fact, I don't trust his ability to accurately know about the rest of the honey badger's behavior and biology, much less the behavior and biology of a predator living on continents he doesn't work in.

[Flickerdart]

Consider adding Fiendish or Celestial to your badger, not because of any real-life stuff but because then it becomes eligible for class levels as a creature of Int 3, and you can give it Barbarian for Ferocity or Whirling Frenzy.

[Tarlek Flamehai]

This line causes me to discount it, though:


There isn't any actual evidence that they do this. It hasn't been filmed, it hasn't been photographed, and it hasn't been reported in the literature by a scientist who's seen it. If the author isn't aware of this fact, I don't trust his ability to accurately know about the rest of the honey badger's behavior and biology, much less the behavior and biology of a predator living on continents he doesn't work in.

I did some digging, seems the genitalia attack has been an urban legend about the species since the forties. From a behavioral view it does appear to be inaccurate, but from a game play view it makes a distinctive addition to the monster.

[Jeff the Green]

I did some digging, seems the genitalia attack has been an urban legend about the species since the forties. From a behavioral view it does appear to be inaccurate, but from a game play view it makes a distinctive addition to the monster.

1947, I believe, and it's been circulating among people living in southern Africa for considerably longer (I can't tell whether it's a native idea or something colonizing Europeans came up with, but either seems plausible); that's just when it made it into the literature. But yeah, giving it something like sneak attack would fit the stories, though if we're going by urban legends or the meme version of the honey badger it shouldn't be statted at all since if it has stats you can kill it.

[Mystral]

Given that a dire badger is almost identical to a wolverine, I expect that a "wolverine scaled down to small" would just be a badger.

You scale a creature from medium to small by adding +2 Dex, taking -2 Str and adjusting AC, Attack Bonus, Damage Dice and so on according to small size. Nothing more to that. Still 3 HD, but harder to hit, but less hard hitting.

[Seharvepernfan]

Dire Badger would work fine. Dire Badger and wolverine are basically the same, but for some reason dire animals have good will saves.

Funnily enough, honey badgers aren't badgers at all, they're more like weasels.

[Jeff the Green]

Dire Badger would work fine. Dire Badger and wolverine are basically the same, but for some reason dire animals have good will saves.

They're nowhere near big enough to be dire badgers, though.


Funnily enough, honey badgers aren't badgers at all, they're more like weasels.

Actually, it appears that they're equally closely related to both (http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7007/6/10). Specifically, American badgers branched off first, then honey badgers, and then the rest of the mustelids (including Eurasian badgers and weasels/ferrets/wolverines/etc.).

[zergling.exe]

(including Eurasian badgers and weasels/ferrets/wolverines/etc.).

I read this like 3 times, and kept getting weasels/ferrets/werewolves/etc. Does that mean that werewolves are mustelids in my head?

[atemu1234]

I read this like 3 times, and kept getting weasels/ferrets/werewolves/etc. Does that mean that werewolves are mustelids in my head?

That'd be awesome.

[Chronos]

Of course, there's no reason you couldn't have a were-wolverine.

[hamishspence]

Actually, it appears that they're equally closely related to both (http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7007/6/10). Specifically, American badgers branched off first, then honey badgers, and then the rest of the mustelids (including Eurasian badgers and weasels/ferrets/wolverines/etc.).
For some reason, Wikipedia's article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honey_badger

says they're "much more closely related to martens than to badgers"

Maybe it's outdated?

[Hiro]

My suggestion? Wolverine + DM'ed improvments to Natural armor.

That's what makes Honey badgers not give a ****.

Their hide is so tough it deflects pretty anything other than machetes and bullets. and even then you have to use a lot of force with a sharp machete and be close range (and aiming as soft points) to do much with a gun.

[Jeff the Green]

For some reason, Wikipedia's article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honey_badger

says they're "much more closely related to martens than to badgers"

Maybe it's outdated?

The most recent common ancestor of the American badger and the honey badger was 19-23 MYA (http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7007/6/10), and the MRCA or the honey badger and the marten was 10-14 MYA. (Also the time since the MRCA of the honey badger and the Eurasian badgers.)

Actually, the taxonomy section of the article is messed up five ways to Sunday. Unless you're going by the old, non-evolutionary taxonomy (and you shouldn't be) martens aren't in Mustelinae; they're more closely related to Eurasian badgers than to weasels (who are the type species for Mustelinae). Wolverines are martens, so don't go in Mustelinae either. There isn't a badger subfamily; there are two—New World and Old World.


My suggestion? Wolverine + DM'ed improvments to Natural armor.

That's what makes Honey badgers not give a ****.

Their hide is so tough it deflects pretty anything other than machetes and bullets. and even then you have to use a lot of force with a sharp machete and be close range (and aiming as soft points) to do much with a gun.

Again, they're not that big and their skin isn't a lot thicker than that of American badgers.

[hamishspence]

Actually, the taxonomy section of the article is messed up five ways to Sunday. Unless you're going by the old, non-evolutionary taxonomy (and you shouldn't be) martens aren't in Mustelinae; they're more closely related to Eurasian badgers than to weasels (who are the type species for Mustelinae). Wolverines are martens, so don't go in Mustelinae either. There isn't a badger subfamily; there are two—New World and Old World.


The Mustelidae article does mention the "old version" (in which there's only two major families, Mustelinae and Lutrinae) as well as the "new version".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustelidae

Under the "new version" - "American badgers" should be thought of as basal to the rest of the group - so maybe shouldn't be called badgers at all.

I would guess that the most recent common ancestor of the whole group looked more like a marten than a badger - with the similarities between the American and Eurasian badgers being due to convergent evolution - and the similarities of the Ratel ("honey badger") to martens being due to it not being as derived.

[Jeff the Green]

Under the "new version" - "American badgers" should be thought of as basal to the rest of the group - so maybe shouldn't be called badgers at all.

Common names rarely have much to do with phylogeny anyway. The American robin, for example, isn't particularly closely related to the European robin.


I would guess that the most recent common ancestor of the whole group looked more like a marten than a badger - with the similarities between the American and Eurasian badgers being due to convergent evolution - and the similarities of the Ratel ("honey badger") to martens being due to it not being as derived.

Based on their closest relatives (racoons and allies, red pandas, and skunks and stink badgers), though, I'd guess they actually looked more like honey badgers than either martens or badgers. I suppose this makes sense since both the badger and the weasel form are fairly specialized and one would expect, given their relatives them to be more generalists. I can only find reconstructions of one ancient mustelid (Megalictis ferox (http://www.quazoo.com/q/Megalictis)), which somewhat resembles a wolverine. It lived around the time of the split between American badgers and the rest of the mustelids, though, so it's not a great candidate for MRCA or even being very similar to it.

[Deaxsa]

Why is rveryone intent on making them "what's already out there, but better"? I mean... Could you not just refluff a badger or wolverine?ts not like honey badgers are "tye ultimate. OF weaselkind" or anything. They're just another animal.

[Jeff the Green]

Why is rveryone intent on making them "what's already out there, but better"? I mean... Could you not just refluff a badger or wolverine?ts not like honey badgers are "tye ultimate. OF weaselkind" or anything. They're just another animal.

I... I just spent like ten posts suggesting that.

Also, could we please stop with the wolverine comparison? Some of the very largest male honey badgers are as big as some of the very smallest female wolverines, but the average wolverine is solidly in medium and even the largest honey badger is in small.

(Oh, something random I just learned: the scientific name of the wolverine means "glutton". Rather suits it, actually.)

[Deaxsa]

I... I just spent like ten posts suggesting that.

Also, could we please stop with the wolverine comparison? Some of the very largest male honey badgers are as big as some of the very smallest female wolverines, but the average wolverine is solidly in medium and even the largest honey badger is in small.

(Oh, something random I just learned: the scientific name of the wolverine means "glutton". Rather suits it, actually.)

Sorry, didn't mean to insinuate other people are not playing it straight, just that there seems to be an overwhelming quantity of love for the honey badger on this thread. And as far as the wolverine comparisons, well, it's the only other option that's even mildly applicable. Beyond that, what else is gonna be used? Dog? It's not that wolverine is a good choice, it's that it's really only one of two possible choices, and sometimes a little bit of decision making can be a good thing. Although yea, it needs to be small.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Jeff the Green
Oh, something random I just learned: the scientific name of the wolverine means "glutton".

Actually it means "double glutton," since gulo is used twice.


Originally Posted by Jeff the Green
...but the average wolverine is solidly in medium and even the largest honey badger is in small.

I'm not sure why you think wolverines would be Medium, apart from their listing in the Monster Manual, which is hardly an accurate representation.

According to the listing in Mammalian Species, mean mass for wolverines is 15 kg for males and 11 kg for females, and 1.0/0.9 m total body length respectively. That's very close to the height and weight of a typical halfling (PHB, p. 19) and nowhere near the mass of a dwarf, given as "almost as heavy as humans" (PHB, p. 14).

[Jeff the Green]

Actually it means "double glutton," since gulo is used twice.

Well, strictly speaking it means "glutton glutton" because Latin isn't one of those languages where reduplication is an intensifier. Like Gorilla gorilla. It's kind of disappointing that Linnaeus didn't give a more interesting specific name like Gulo omnivorax ("all-consuming glutton", referring to its extremely wide definition of 'food') or Gulo rixator ("bullying glutton", referring to its preference to steal kills rather than make its own).


I'm not sure why you think wolverines would be Medium, apart from their listing in the Monster Manual, which is hardly an accurate representation.

According to the listing in Mammalian Species, mean mass for wolverines is 15 kg for males and 11 kg for females, and 1.0/0.9 m total body length respectively. That's very close to the height and weight of a typical halfling (PHB, p. 19) and nowhere near the mass of a dwarf, given as "almost as heavy as humans" (PHB, p. 14).

I should have checked the definitions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#bigandLittleCreatu resInCombat) before I said that. (I was also going off the ranges given by Wikipedia, which I should have guessed are right-skewed.) Wolverines are an edge case, with smaller individuals solidly small and larger individuals solidly medium. Were I designing them from scratch I'd make them small with powerful build, but I don't think making them medium is unreasonable.

In any case, the MM wolverine absolutely does not fit the honey badger.

(Also, statistics rant, why the heck would a general information website give mean mass/length? It's looking to describe the typical wolverine, which would be the median. I mean, it's probably derived from some primary source that only listed the mean, but that's profoundly stupid reporting of statistics. If Tim Cook, CEO of Apple, moved to my neighborhood, the mean income would increase 360%, but just reporting that would give a horribly inaccurate picture of it. It's things like this that make Mark Twain right when he could easily be made dead wrong.)

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Jeff the Green
Wolverines are an edge case, with smaller individuals solidly small and larger individuals solidly medium.

Male mass is rarely greater than 18 kg, which is barely 40 pounds, a slightly chunkier halfling. That's not even one-third the weight of the lower end of the human weight range, as given by the PHB on p. 12.

The heaviest male listed in Mammalian Species is 32 kg, about 70 pounds, and an obvious outlier. Even that value is nowhere near the lower end of the PHB's human weight range--barely half as much.

Quibbling about mean versus median is irrelevant here. Wolverines are Small, almost exactly halfling dimensions, and the 70-lb. outlier is obviously Bandobras Took. :smalltongue:

[Jeff the Green]

Male mass is rarely greater than 18 kg, which is barely 40 pounds, a slightly chunkier halfling. That's not even one-third the weight of the lower end of the human weight range, as given by the PHB on p. 12.

The heaviest male listed in Mammalian Species is 32 kg, about 70 pounds, and an obvious outlier. Even that value is nowhere near the lower end of the PHB's human weight range--barely half as much.

Quibbling about mean versus median is irrelevant here. Wolverines are Small, almost exactly halfling dimensions, and the 70-lb. outlier is obviously Bandobras Took. :smalltongue:

Don't look at human height/weight. Look at the definitions, and remember that they're guidelines and things like apparent size from coats can bump them up. I mean I can cite medium animals that are that range too—baboons are 15 kg average and border collies are 12-20 (rough collies somewhat more, but they still overlap with wolverines.

The rant wasn't meant to support any argument. It's just a peeve I have about scientists/science popularizers that don't understand statistics.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Jeff the Green
Look at the definitions….

The SRD definitions are for typical creatures of their kind, and while you can argue means and medians all you like, the typical male wolverine fits between 11.3 and 16.2 kg, as recorded by Banfield 1987 and summarized in MS 499. The rare heavier cases, as noted, are outliers, and barely tip over the lower end of the Medium category. That's not much of an argument to call the entire species Medium when the great majority are obviously Small.


Originally Posted by Jeff the Green
I mean I can cite medium animals that are that range too….

Which only means the people writing the Monster Manual weren't too careful with sizes and definitions.

[Jeff the Green]

**Reads what he wrote yesterday**

:smalleek::smallredface::smallsigh:

Well, that was stupid of me. I'm still trying to figure out what was going through my mind to make me cling to that idea.

I really need some sort of breathalyzer on my computer that detects sleep deprivation, I suppose.

[hamishspence]

Which only means the people writing the Monster Manual weren't too careful with sizes and definitions.

Makes sense.

Regarding collies - given that Small dogs are 20lb-50lb:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dog.htm

I figure that most collie breeds will be Small rather than Medium - and that the riding dog:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dogRiding.htm

represents fairly large breeds of dog.

As for baboons - given that the Mandrill used to be considered a species of baboon:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandrill

I figure that's probably closer to the D&D baboon.

[Chronos]

In any event, high-weight outliers of a species are best represented by the Advancement line in the monster listing. So a "proper" listing for a wolverine might be something like 2 HD (small), advancement 3-4 HD (small), 5 HD (medium). That way, most of them are small, but you can still have the occasional brute of a wolverine who reaches medium.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Joe Eskimo
Is there an official sourcebook where I can find a honey badger? If not, what's the closest thing to one?

Here you go. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?391230-The-Honey-Badger-WIP-PEACH)

That's a little homebrewed honey badger for you. Comments and constructive criticism welcome.




Originally Posted by Chronos
...a "proper" listing for a wolverine might be something like 2 HD (small), advancement 3-4 HD (small), 5 HD (medium). That way, most of them are small, but you can still have the occasional brute of a wolverine who reaches medium.

That's a good idea, and worth keeping in mind.

[VincentTakeda]

It's not important who honeybadger's parents and grandparents were...

Honeybadger Don't Care!