Golem armies- How to fix this...

[splashing.cat]

Help! I have this player who designed a crafting wizard. This character was really not terribly useful during the adventuring bits of the game, but now the character is level 30 something and can create super golems in days. This has resulted in the players having access to a really powerful golem army, which, being a golem army, is immune to magic and has massive DR and can pretty much kill everything. I'd like to challenge this army, and if possible I'd like to do it within the rules without talking to the player and asking him to tone it down. I don't want to outright squash his army because it is kind of what his character is built about. Antimagic fields do not affect golems, and the only other thing I could think of is disjunction. Can anyone here think of another way to stop the army of metal and stone marching through my campaign and killing everything?

Thanks for any help or ideas.

[jedipotter]

First off, don't just say ''golems are immune to magic'' and just walk away. That is not how it works. A golem is immune to any magic that allows for spell resistance and any magic that allows a fortitude save(unless it effects objects), and they are immune to things like sleep. Ok...still leaves plenty of spells.

A good chunk of the conjuration/summoning spells still effect a golem. Incendiary Cloud for example, works just fine. So does Acid Fog. And Fire Seeds.

And plenty of other attack spells too, like :Snare, Evard's Black Tentacles, Forcecage and Reverse Gravity.

Remember a golem has no special senses like Radar....so it's fully effected by spells like Fog Cloud and Darkness.

A golem is also effect by illusions like figments. You can fool a golem into thinking a bridge or pit is real the same way you can an orc.

All buff spells on an attacker ''effect'' a golem. Bull's Strength for example.

Some spells even have special effects on golems, like Rusting Grasp

And some spells like Eathquake and Control Weather always work.

And that is just Core Spells.

The DR for most golems is not that high...not for the enemies of a 30th level character. A dragon, for example, can take out a golem. A cloud giant does plenty of damage. Or a huge elemental. Or a hydra.

Note a golem is only immune to spells and spell-like abilities....but not supernatural abilities. So a pack of winter wolves can still do damage.

[Andezzar]

Remember, golems are not immune to magic, they have arbitrarily high Spell Resistance. So any spell with SR:No will work normally. Or are you talking about adamantine or mithral golems? I can't think of a way to affect them by spells at the moment.

Opposition appropriate to a group of level 30 characters should not have a problem with acquiring metalline or transmuting weapons. Only the latter would work with adamantine/mithral golems though.

Golems still can't fly. Golems are still mindless. How are the defenses of the creator? If you can't get the army, take out the general.

[splashing.cat]

First off, don't just say ''golems are immune to magic'' and just walk away. That is not how it works. A golem is immune to any magic that allows for spell resistance and any magic that allows a fortitude save(unless it effects objects), and they are immune to things like sleep. Ok...still leaves plenty of spells.

A good chunk of the conjuration/summoning spells still effect a golem. Incendiary Cloud for example, works just fine. So does Acid Fog. And Fire Seeds.

And plenty of other attack spells too, like :Snare, Evard's Black Tentacles, Forcecage and Reverse Gravity.

Remember a golem has no special senses like Radar....so it's fully effected by spells like Fog Cloud and Darkness.

A golem is also effect by illusions like figments. You can fool a golem into thinking a bridge or pit is real the same way you can an orc.

All buff spells on an attacker ''effect'' a golem. Bull's Strength for example.

Some spells even have special effects on golems, like Rusting Grasp

And some spells like Eathquake and Control Weather always work.

And that is just Core Spells.

The DR for most golems is not that high...not for the enemies of a 30th level character. A dragon, for example, can take out a golem. A cloud giant does plenty of damage. Or a huge elemental. Or a hydra.

Note a golem is only immune to spells and spell-like abilities....but not supernatural abilities. So a pack of winter wolves can still do damage.

Fabulous, thank you. I guess an opposing army might hire a dragon or something.

I thought golems were immune to mind-effecting, so would illusion work? The other construct traits can be a pain: immune to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, and necromancy effects (which is super vague, I think), critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability damage, ability drain, fatigue, exhaustion, or energy drain, and most annoying, anything that requires a fort save. At any rate, I take your point about the SR, it seems there are enough spells to at least help. The mithral golems will still be a problem because they are immune to all magical and supernatural effects, except slow, but blessedly the GP requirement for crafting them is pretty limiting.
Earthquake sounds good too. Any opinions on disjunction's effect on golems? In particular, my little crafter has a great many awakened golems, would they still be affected as a magic item would be?
Since experience costs only bring the character down to the beginning of the same level, the character has just stopped leveling up (which has been fine because she has armies of golems).

Anyway, thank you for the advice so far. I'm going to use a bunch of Incendiary Cloud.

[RoboEmperor]

Golem armies are a joke. I know because I tried it before. Throw an epic monster or two at it. Hecatoncheries will shred the entire army solo. He also can summon an additional Hecatoncheries. Each one does 100 attacks on the golems. Unless your talking about hundreds of max HD iron colossi, those epic monsters will annihilate any golem army. And even if it's the max HD iron colossi army, each epic monster can destroy a couple of em before death.

[Renen]

Lol. Your wizard is lvl 30. Praise all the gods of DnD that golems are what you have to deal with. Because really... it can be much worse.

At that level enemies can just
1) Go around them, and kill the party, while golems blunder about
2) Drop em in a big magically created hole. Golems might be immune to magic, but not holes that appear beneath them. Holes that are say... gates to the plane of air.
3) Heck... have an enemy caster open a gate to plane of quintessence, and flood them with the stuff. They are now frozen in time until its removed.

[RoboEmperor]

Oh I also forgot to mention rod of construct control.

[jedipotter]

I thought golems were immune to mind-effecting, so would illusion work?

Golems are immune to mind-effecting things, but not all illusions are mind-effecting. Figments are not mind-effecting, so silent image and major image and on up effect golems the same way they effect any other creature. A golem would not just walk through an illusion any more then it would something real. Mirage Arcana can fool a golem. A golem might follow a shifting path(SC) A golem can even 'think' it fell in an Illusionary Pit



The other construct traits can be a pain: immune to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, and necromancy effects (which is super vague, I think), critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability damage, ability drain, fatigue, exhaustion, or energy drain, and most annoying, anything that requires a fort save.


It's really only ''alive'' stuff. And it's only 1/4th the spells, you still have wil, ref and no saves. Cometfall(SC) is a 6th level spell with a reflex save and no SR and do 15D6 damage, for example.



At any rate, I take your point about the SR, it seems there are enough spells to at least help. The mithral golems will still be a problem because they are immune to all magical and supernatural effects, except slow, but blessedly the GP requirement for crafting them is pretty limiting.

They can still be effected by indirect attacks. Like Earthquake.

And they can always be attacked physically. A balor can do plenty of damage, so can a dragon or hydra.....and then there are epic monsters too.



Earthquake sounds good too. Any opinions on disjunction's effect on golems? In particular, my little crafter has a great many awakened golems, would they still be affected as a magic item would be?
Since experience costs only bring the character down to the beginning of the same level, the character has just stopped leveling up (which has been fine because she has armies of golems).
.

Disjunction only effects magic and objects, it does not effect creatures.

And note you can't cast Awaken Construct on a mithril golem.

Bonus: Don't forget the Mace of Smiting, it's an anti golem weapon. It's a dirt cheep weapon for an epic game....

[Coidzor]

Be glad he's not running around with Ice Assassin clones of every deity and major NPC in the setting instead.

Or a bunch of Shadesteel Golems with copious amounts of Tippy tweaking.

But, yeah, 30th level characters can do some crazy crap. Granted, they also could do some crazy crap at 20 and Wizards start even earlier than that if they've a mind.

An enemy army isn't really a challenge for 30th level characters, though. Whoever is *behind* that army might be, though.

Unless it's like, an Army of Dragons who are getting on in years or an army of Solars or Outsiders with a boatload of levels on top of their outsiderness.

It's annoying to transport more than a portion of a golem army with the party to go fight foes that are on another plane or on the moon or otherwise beyond the reach of a Teleportation Circle.


Fabulous, thank you. I guess an opposing army might hire a dragon or something.

I thought golems were immune to mind-effecting, so would illusion work? The other construct traits can be a pain: immune to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, and necromancy effects (which is super vague, I think), critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability damage, ability drain, fatigue, exhaustion, or energy drain, and most annoying, anything that requires a fort save. At any rate, I take your point about the SR, it seems there are enough spells to at least help. The mithral golems will still be a problem because they are immune to all magical and supernatural effects, except slow, but blessedly the GP requirement for crafting them is pretty limiting.
Earthquake sounds good too. Any opinions on disjunction's effect on golems? In particular, my little crafter has a great many awakened golems, would they still be affected as a magic item would be?
Since experience costs only bring the character down to the beginning of the same level, the character has just stopped leveling up (which has been fine because she has armies of golems).

Anyway, thank you for the advice so far. I'm going to use a bunch of Incendiary Cloud.

An illusion of a wall isn't really mind-effecting as the rules would have it. So a golem, being mindless, would interpret an illusionary wall as... a wall. Unless he spent the feat and money on giving his golem army Rudimentary Intelligence up to half his caster level, but that's a Dragon Magazine feat anyway.

SR: No spells should definitely be favored by any casters that a Level 30 party would be running into.

[Sith_Happens]

The mithral golems will still be a problem because they are immune to all magical and supernatural effects, except slow

The ELH is a 3.0 book, Magic Immunity in 3.0 worked against everything but was changed in 3.5 to only work against SR:Yes stuff. Just because the SRD forgot to make that change on the epic golems doesn't mean that you as the DM can't or shouldn't.

[RoboEmperor]

The ELH is a 3.0 book, Magic Immunity in 3.0 worked against everything but was changed in 3.5 to only work against SR:Yes stuff. Just because the SRD forgot to make that change on the epic golems doesn't mean that you as the DM can't or shouldn't.

I disagree. It's an epic golem, so it gets epic stuff. Golems are weak enough as it is, you wanna make them even weaker in the epic setting? D:

For some peoples, golems are their lives!

[Doxkid]

What quests are they doing that makes a golem army useful? What is the rest of the party? What was this character doing up until he got his army?

[ace rooster]

Trolls. Sure they will spend most of their time getting pummeled, but they don't care. Even if they only do damage one attack in a thousand they will still win eventually.

This relys on the golems being mindless, which is by far the largest weakness golems have. They do not learn, and so do not modify their tactics even if they consistantly fail. Once an anti golem tactic has been perfected it will never need to be changed until new golems are created, which will have similar quirks in their programming that can be exploited. Think robocop, where the droid says "you have 5 seconds to comply", while robocop is casually preparing an anti tank gun to fire at it in about 4 seconds. The capabilities of those droids are comparable to a golem, though a golem probably has a better perception of "threat" (based on wis), and the droid has the capacity to save information (giving it an int of 1). Both make cats look like geniuses, and so are more easily countered than their numbers would suggest. Even in a straight fight there are creatures that they cannot harm (in part due to limited tactics) but can harm them, which are a straight up fail for the army. Even an army of level 1 orc commoners would look for some new tactic to win, where mindless constructs would not, meaning that in some encounters (against the trolls for example, where oil flasks might be used) the commoners would have more success!

[jedipotter]

This relys on the golems being mindless,

Oh...oh.....golems as mindless as the A.I. of Star Wars Commander.......

[Jack_Simth]

Help! I have this player who designed a crafting wizard. This character was really not terribly useful during the adventuring bits of the game, but now the character is level 30 something and can create super golems in days. This has resulted in the players having access to a really powerful golem army, which, being a golem army, is immune to magic and has massive DR and can pretty much kill everything. I'd like to challenge this army, and if possible I'd like to do it within the rules without talking to the player and asking him to tone it down. I don't want to outright squash his army because it is kind of what his character is built about. Antimagic fields do not affect golems, and the only other thing I could think of is disjunction. Can anyone here think of another way to stop the army of metal and stone marching through my campaign and killing everything?

Thanks for any help or ideas.

As many, many others have said: Stock Golems - even with max HD advancement - are rather easy to handle when you know what you're up against and they're not being ordered about by someone clever. They've got negligible senses (mindless, so no skills or feats; usually wis-10, so +0 Listen/Spot; Darkvision and low-light vision only). Golembane Scarabs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#scarabGolembane) are only 2.5k, and if you give one of those to, say, a CR 4 Pixie (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/sprite.htm#pixie), the golem is dead, no two-ways about it. Sure, it'll take a while with the pixie only averaging 1.25 damage per round with it's shortsword (2 with it's longbow), but the pixie can melee it forever (Greater Invisibility, constantly, while flying: Round 1: Hover over the beast; golem can't detect the pixie, so it does nothing. Round 2: Pixie hits the golem, then moves five feet or more to another square that threatens the golem; golem picks up which square it was attacked from (which no longer contains the pixie) and attacks that square - to no effect on the pixie. Round 3+: Repeat round 2. Golem, being mindless, can't predict simple patterns, and so will always attack the wrong square. Easy-peasy. Oh yes, and while using arrows, the Golem can't even figure out which square). Summon Nature's Ally VI. Could also do the same with an Invisible Stalker, Summon Monster/Nature's Ally VII, Planar Binding, or Planar Ally.

A CR 2 Lantern Archon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/archon.htm#lanternArchon) can kill them too. Fly 60 (Perfect), 30-foot Ex light-ray that ignores DR for 1d6 2/round. Archon hovers above the golem, zapping it for no-sr, no-save, no-DR damage. Takes a while at an average of about 7 hp per round, but there's very little any golem can do about it. Summon Monster IV, Lesser Planar Ally, or Lesser Planar Binding. A few spells in Spell Compendium, too.

A Collossus is marginally harder to deal with due to the AMF, but not by much. Get anything that flys, drop stuff from a great height.

Basically, as long as the golems are not being actively ordered around by something with a brain, they're little more than cannon fodder.

[atemu1234]

Ranged is your friend, as most golems are melee-only.

[RoboEmperor]

Ranged is your friend, as most golems are melee-only.

That's not true. Some golems can hurl rocks.

[Jack_Simth]

That's not true. Some golems can hurl rocks.
Generally speaking, that requires someone to command it to do so, however: "They follow instructions explicitly and are incapable of any strategy or tactics." (from the Combat section of the golem header)

[Flickerdart]

Obviously what you do is get a Colossus to chuck golems at your enemies.

[RoboEmperor]

Generally speaking, that requires someone to command it to do so, however: "They follow instructions explicitly and are incapable of any strategy or tactics." (from the Combat section of the golem header)


Club +79 melee (4d6+18) or 2 slams +79 melee (4d6+12) or thrown object (weighing 10 tons or less) +65 ranged (4d6+12)

Flesh colossus only. Colossi actually has intelligence o_O. Didn't notice that before.

If his golem army is in fact a golem army and doesn't have any colossi in it, I guess ranged only could work.

[Telok]

Epic golem army?

Epic Grease spell.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

My usual answers to mild PC shenanigans is the Phrenic Advanced Elemental CR 20.



1) At CR 20, the elemental is of the Elder variety, with 52 HD.
2) Due to its HD it has very good saves, awesome BAB and 600+ HP. It also has a Spell Resistance of 62.
3) Due to its large number of feats, it has DR 41/- and fast healing 3 due to feats.
4) Given sufficient ability enhancement (inherents, leveling), it can get infinite exceptional deflection. The casters can kiss their rays, orbs and ranged touch spells goodbye.
5) Having a mobility advantage if of the Earth or Air varieties, it could easily kill a huge army given time.




My usual answer to heavy PC shenanigans is Rovagug. He's a 98 HD DvR 20 abomination that can kill any TO build of 20th level or less, no exceptions, in a single action, 20 weeks before they roll initiative. :smalltongue:

[Vizzerdrix]

A Collossus is marginally harder to deal with due to the AMF, but not by much. Get anything that flys, drop stuff from a great height.


Oh gods I can see it now. A city surrenders to the golem army and throws a parade to ease the transition, but all the confetti they drop on it turns out to be boulders and vats of acid under the effect of shrink item! :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: This threat reminds me of a build I wanted to try. Effigy Armadillos/pangolins/turtles being hurled by an orc shotput weapon master. I wonder, If I make the orc dumb enough, and the constructs smart enough, can they convince the orc they are shotputs for the purpose of feats?:smallconfused:

[JustIgnoreMe]

My usual answer to heavy PC shenanigans is Rovagug. He's a 98 HD DvR 20 abomination that can kill any TO build of 20th level or less, no exceptions, in a single action, 20 weeks before they roll initiative. :smalltongue:

Hey, is that the build from this thread? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?382053-If-it-has-stats-%28Challenge-to-the-playground%29) If so, can you come back and reveal the stats? A lot of us are still interested in knowing how you pulled off some of those moves.

[Jack_Simth]

Oh gods I can see it now. A city surrenders to the golem army and throws a parade to ease the transition, but all the confetti they drop on it turns out to be boulders and vats of acid under the effect of shrink item! :smallbiggrin:Polymorph Any Object is better, at least for colossus - due to the duration. Turning boulders into small pebbles is permanent - same kingdom (Mineral), same class (Stone), same Int (-) is +9 and permanent easily - so while Shrink Item is only a 2nd level spell and thus you can arrange a lot more per day, Polymorph Any Object is Permanent and so you can get a bigger backlog.

Step 1: Wall of Stone to make a pillar of stone (ideally with one end pointy and the other end slightly feathered, so it will always fall point-down - assume 1,000 pounds and less than 1,000 cubic feet, because stone is dense).
Step 2: Stone shape to cut the pillar off from the base and make it a separate object.
Step 3: Polymorph Any Object to turn the pillar into a small round pebble (assume one ounce in weight).
Step 4: Put the pebble in a bag of holding.
Step 5: Repeat steps 1-4 until the bag is full. This can be done over the course of months/years as needed (With a type-1 bag of holding and a 250 pound capacity, you can put 4,000 such one-ounce pebbles in here).
Step 6: Fly well above stupid AMF person (or colossus).
Step 7: Invert bag of holding over stupid AMF person (or colossus). All the pebbles revert to 1,000 pound pointy objects, falling point-first, when they hit the AMF. With 4,000 of them, that 4,000,000 pounds of stone is expected to kill anything that will exist in an AMF (or at least bury it pretty good).
Step 8: Wait for the AMF to expire (dead colossus or just the spell duration runs out). You can tell because the stone pillars all turn back into pebbles - which you can then recover (another advantage of PaO over Shrink Item)
Step 9: Loot the body.
Step 10: ??? (optional)
Step 11: Profit!

[Coidzor]

Can anyone here think of another way to stop the army of metal and stone marching through my campaign and killing everything?

Of course, failing any means of dealing with a 30th level party in play, there's always ending the game and starting a new one. :smallwink:

DM: "So your army of metal and stone just marched through the kingdom, killing every living thing they encountered within it. End Scene, End Story."

DM: "Now that this game is over, it's time to start making characters for our next game."

DM: "OK, so you're all survivors of a brutal genocide enacted by a mad Wizard for reasons unknown that have been dwelling in a hidden valley that his golem army was unable to detect and he was too lazy to care about or notice himself. Your people have started to repopulate, but the land can only support so many people on it, so the elders have selected you as scouts to go forth and find out what state the outside world is in and find your people a place in it or make one if you have to..."

[splashing.cat]

Thanks for the help everyone. I should be clearer: I've been looking for something other than just epic creatures that can beat up a golem army, because I know that there are tons of those, but instead resources that a nation could use against them like spells or magic items and stuff. I got a lot of great ideas from this thread, thanks. I'd rather not just end the campaign :smallsmile: it's been going on for almost 6 years now, with 3 different parties. Listening to the player collude though, they really want to (of course) be unstoppable, so they were going to build a golem army and failing that, one of the group is a Dread Necromancer and could make an undead army. I just hope I'm not back here in a few months asking for help against undead!

[Sith_Happens]

Thanks for the help everyone. I should be clearer: I've been looking for something other than just epic creatures that can beat up a golem army, because I know that there are tons of those, but instead resources that a nation could use against them like spells or magic items and stuff. I got a lot of great ideas from this thread, thanks. I'd rather not just end the campaign :smallsmile: it's been going on for almost 6 years now, with 3 different parties. Listening to the player collude though, they really want to (of course) be unstoppable, so they were going to build a golem army and failing that, one of the group is a Dread Necromancer and could make an undead army. I just hope I'm not back here in a few months asking for help against undead!

I'm pretty sure a golem army is worth far more than the amount of resources any typical nation could bring to bear against it. Golems are expensive.

In a more general sense, your party is level 30. That's well past the point that anything non-epic can so much as inconvenience them.

[(Un)Inspired]

Thanks for the help everyone. I should be clearer: I've been looking for something other than just epic creatures that can beat up a golem army, because I know that there are tons of those, but instead resources that a nation could use against them like spells or magic items and stuff. I got a lot of great ideas from this thread, thanks. I'd rather not just end the campaign :smallsmile: it's been going on for almost 6 years now, with 3 different parties. Listening to the player collude though, they really want to (of course) be unstoppable, so they were going to build a golem army and failing that, one of the group is a Dread Necromancer and could make an undead army. I just hope I'm not back here in a few months asking for help against undead!

Your players want to be unstoppable, to achieve this end they built the weakest possible army and have a backup plan that is to build the second weakest possible army?

Pardon my bluntness but I'm looking at the epic level golems on the SRD right now and they're defeated by the 2nd level spell levitate. There DR is only 15 and they have no ability to deal meaningful damage.

A fighter, a MID LEVEL, fighter could take out there whole bloody army with a two handed weapon and power attack. Just have a cleric airwalk above him with a wand of CLW to touch him up every few rounds when something crits and hits him.

If your players want to be unstoppable why don't they planar bind/simulacrum an army like a normal person?

[Sith_Happens]

A fighter, a MID LEVEL, fighter could take out there whole bloody army with a two handed weapon and power attack. Just have a cleric airwalk above him with a wand of CLW to touch him up every few rounds when something crits and hits him.

Um, both epic golems have an attack bonus of "It hits" and deal an average of 36 (mithral) or 53 (adamantine) damage per attack.

[(Un)Inspired]

Um, both epic golems have an attack bonus of "It hits" and deal an average of 36 (mithral) or 53 (adamantine) damage per attack.

I'm looking at +39 and +58, both easy to out AC and no way to piece most miss chances.

36 and 53 damage is basically nothing by mid level.

[Flickerdart]

36 and 53 damage is basically nothing by mid level.
Really? Because a level 10 fighter who's rolled max on every HD and has 30 CON somehow is still only swinging 200HP, so 53 damage is 1/4 of your entire health. A more typical fighter with say 20 CON is going to be hovering just north of 100 and dies in 3 hits.

[Jack_Simth]

Really? Because a level 10 fighter who's rolled max on every HD and has 30 CON somehow is still only swinging 200HP, so 53 damage is 1/4 of your entire health. A more typical fighter with say 20 CON is going to be hovering just north of 100 and dies in 3 hits.

Don't forget the AC... for the AC to be in a range where a +39 attack bonus requires a crit (forget the +58) pretty much requires an AC of 20 points higher than that so 59. Assuming a medium human (10 base), that'd be, what, ... +5 Mountain Plate (15 armor), a +5 (animated) Tower Shield (+9 Shield), +5 Ring of Deflection, +5 Amulet of Natural Armor, ... still only 44, need another 15 points. Hmm. Custom items? +5 Luck, +5 Sacred, +5 Profane? To get the +58 into a similar range needs another 19 points, that's four more such off-type items (or miss chances stacked to a similar degree).

I'm slightly curious what sort of optimization goes on at (Un)Inspired's gaming table that such an equipment loadout is considered normal-ish for a mid-level fighter.

[(Un)Inspired]

Don't forget the AC... for the AC to be in a range where a +39 attack bonus requires a crit (forget the +58) pretty much requires an AC of 20 points higher than that so 59. Assuming a medium human (10 base), that'd be, what, ... +5 Mountain Plate (15 armor), a +5 (animated) Tower Shield (+9 Shield), +5 Ring of Deflection, +5 Amulet of Natural Armor, ... still only 44, need another 15 points. Hmm. Custom items? +5 Luck, +5 Sacred, +5 Profane? To get the +58 into a similar range needs another 19 points, that's four more such off-type items (or miss chances stacked to a similar degree).

I'm slightly curious what sort of optimization goes on at (Un)Inspired's gaming table that such an equipment loadout is considered normal-ish for a mid-level fighter.

I wouldn't say it's normal for my tables, merely easily possible... Although I might be overestimating the fighters possible AC.

As far as damage goes, it's either all or nothing in DnD. Just dealing part of someone's hp in damage doesn't hinder them in any way.

[Qwertystop]

I wouldn't say it's normal for my tables, merely easily possible... Although I might be overestimating the fighters possible AC.

As far as damage goes, it's either all or nothing in DnD. Just dealing part of someone's hp in damage doesn't hinder them in any way.

It's only all-or-nothing if, given that you fail to eliminate the target, they can eliminate you. If no combatant is playing rocket tag, the amount of damage dealt (relative to recipient's max HP) does matter, because it becomes an endurance match. If the golem takes out 1/4 of the fighter's HP in an attack, sure, the fighter's still going, but unless the fighter can do more than that to the golem or gets some big heals, he's still going down before the golem does.

[Jack_Simth]

I wouldn't say it's normal for my tables, merely easily possible... Although I might be overestimating the fighters possible AC.

As far as damage goes, it's either all or nothing in DnD. Just dealing part of someone's hp in damage doesn't hinder them in any way.
To quote:
A fighter, a MID LEVEL, fighter could take out there whole bloody army with a two handed weapon and power attack. Just have a cleric airwalk above him with a wand of CLW to touch him up every few rounds when something crits and hits him.
You're correct that partial HP damage doesn't kill... but a 20 con Fighter-10 is look at about 110 HP (give or take a little) on average. but if one of those mithral golems gets one full attack in (which is actually three attacks, by the way, due to Alarcity), that 20 Con Fighter-10 who rolled average HP is looking at three +39 attacks at an average of 36 damage each - about 1/3rd of the Fighter's HP per hit - and it gets three hits on a full attack (plus a possible AoO). The Adamantine Golem only gets two attacks (plus a possible AoO), but they're more likely to hit and average 53 damage - about half the fighter's HP each.

The fighter doesn't need touch up every few rounds. The fighter will most likely need a mostly-full heal every round of melee range. The fighter is going to need to pile on multiple miss chances, zip in, fight *just one* golem until the golem gets a hit in, then retreat and stay retreated until fully healed before resuming.

This is possible with enough optimization, don't get me wrong... but it's hardly "Just have a cleric airwalk above him with a wand of CLW to touch him up every few rounds".

[Belial_the_Leveler]

The fighter is using a bow... and he's half-dragon. :smallbiggrin:




Seriously, golems can't do anything vs attackers that can attack them from beyond thrown weapon range (i.e. 50 feet). A sufficiently fortified city equipped with heavy siege like Minas Tirith from LOTR could take them; it's 60-feet-high, 20-feet-wide hardened and magically treated walls will laugh at the damage even colossi could deal and its trebuchets can launch ten-ton ammunition loads.

[Coidzor]

I wouldn't say it's normal for my tables, merely easily possible... Although I might be overestimating the fighters possible AC.

Please then, if it's so easy, elaborate. My understanding was that the conventional wisdom is that AC is hard to keep up beyond a "make sure they can't power attack you for full" level past mid-low levels, without basically dedicating one's build to having a high AC above all else.

[(Un)Inspired]

Please then, if it's so easy, elaborate. My understanding was that the conventional wisdom is that AC is hard to keep up beyond a "make sure they can't power attack you for full" level past mid-low levels, without basically dedicating one's build to having a high AC above all else.

Well as I said I'm probably giving the fighter more AC credit than it's due. The easiest way to get that high of AC is probably polymorph into high natural AC form, monks belt, owls insight, greater luminous armor, shield, custom item of sacred bonus to AC.

I'm away from my books at the moment but I can give some more exact figures later.

[slade88green]

Have the next adventures take place on the Astral plane. To move there you have to think the direction you want to move. Golems with their int of 0 cant do that, it limits their movement to 10' a round.

[atemu1234]

Have the next adventures take place on the Astral plane. To move there you have to think the direction you want to move. Golems with their int of 0 cant do that, it limits their movement to 10' a round.

Then send in a homebrewed metal-eating monster that loves the taste of iron.

[Sith_Happens]

Then send in a homebrewed metal-eating monster that loves the taste of iron.

Why homebrew when Rust Monsters already exist?:smallamused:

[atemu1234]

Why homebrew when Rust Monsters already exist?:smallamused:

Because serpentine metal-eaters who traverse the Astral Sea for snacks are much more awesome?

[Vizzerdrix]

It has been a while since I opened a 3.x book, but I remember a spell that gives golems life. Make a resetting trap of it and surround it with black sand.

[splashing.cat]

I wouldn't say it's normal for my tables, merely easily possible... Although I might be overestimating the fighters possible AC.

As far as damage goes, it's either all or nothing in DnD. Just dealing part of someone's hp in damage doesn't hinder them in any way.

I think you might be forgetting that there are a lot of the golems- it's an army. Even if one hit doesn't take the fighter out, then there are more golems.

Also, most of the golems aren't that powerful, it's just that I wanted a way that a rival nation could easily and conceivably squish the golems, having just a fairly regular standing army of regular soldiers with relatively cheap equipment. So powerful adventurers, Chichimecs and incredibly expensive AC boosting equipment that has been mentioned here haven't been really viable options for me. The Earthquake spell is the best option I've found so far. I know you said that golem armies are the weakest possible armies but the fact is there are so many varieties of them that the army is versatile and other than being prohibitively expensive, it's getting a little intimidating. My player is saying a lot of things like "I could take out any nation out there har har har." So while I know I can destroy the army, I wanted to do it using things that would be readily available.

[ace rooster]

I think you might be forgetting that there are a lot of the golems- it's an army. Even if one hit doesn't take the fighter out, then there are more golems.

Also, most of the golems aren't that powerful, it's just that I wanted a way that a rival nation could easily and conceivably squish the golems, having just a fairly regular standing army of regular soldiers with relatively cheap equipment. So powerful adventurers, Chichimecs and incredibly expensive AC boosting equipment that has been mentioned here haven't been really viable options for me. The Earthquake spell is the best option I've found so far. I know you said that golem armies are the weakest possible armies but the fact is there are so many varieties of them that the army is versatile and other than being prohibitively expensive, it's getting a little intimidating. My player is saying a lot of things like "I could take out any nation out there har har har." So while I know I can destroy the army, I wanted to do it using things that would be readily available.

Barrels of oil fired from catapaults. Even an iron colossus doesn't actually have any resistance to fire, and it would only take about 70 thrown pints of oil (14gp worth) to do enough damage to destroy a max hd iron golem. Use mages casting launch item if you don't want to get too close.

Catapults do not use attack rolls. They hit a square and then require a reflex save for half damage. Do they have evasion? While standard heavy catapaults would not do enough damage to get through the DR of the golems on a successful save reliably, more suitably sized ones could presumably be be built. There are very few things immune to having buildings thrown at them.

Once indoors collapsing ceiling traps (and walls, and furniture, and the rest of the building) might be enough to trap one. What you do next I haven't worked out, but it's a start.

Don't think of them as an army to start. Think of how the little people would kill one, and then repeat. Remember that this army is going to be outnumbered somewhere in the region of 1000 to one, so don't worry about a few losses. At that level doing 1hp of damage is worth a life, and if you can call doing 1hp damage a win then winning is not very hard.

[Coidzor]

I think you might be forgetting that there are a lot of the golems- it's an army. Even if one hit doesn't take the fighter out, then there are more golems.

Also, most of the golems aren't that powerful, it's just that I wanted a way that a rival nation could easily and conceivably squish the golems, having just a fairly regular standing army of regular soldiers with relatively cheap equipment. So powerful adventurers, Chichimecs and incredibly expensive AC boosting equipment that has been mentioned here haven't been really viable options for me. The Earthquake spell is the best option I've found so far. I know you said that golem armies are the weakest possible armies but the fact is there are so many varieties of them that the army is versatile and other than being prohibitively expensive, it's getting a little intimidating. My player is saying a lot of things like "I could take out any nation out there har har har." So while I know I can destroy the army, I wanted to do it using things that would be readily available.

In case you didn't get it from my earlier statement, your wizard player has basically started acting like a BBEG Model No 7-Aiii with his mad wizard rampaging an army of golems across the place for no reason.

Adventurers are going to be created by his actions and attracted to the cause of taking him and his army out.

And unless he's being cocky and leaving his army unled and unsupervised, there's basically jack all you can do to defeat him without putting up something that's of sufficient power to challenge him or of sufficient power to annoy him in sufficient quantities and spread off over a sufficient area that he's not able to swat them down in time to preserve his forces from taking some attrition each time.

But, at the end of the day, a level 10 Wizard doesn't need an army to destroy a standard medieval-fantasy kingdom, let alone a 30th level Wizard who can easily have an endlessly growing army of Ice Assassin Solars, who all cast spells as 17th level Clerics, and Black Ethergaunts, who all cast spells as 17th level Wizards.

[Tarvus]

Away from my books at so I don't have access to the stats of the Epic golems ATM, but what about Slaying Arrows (DMG pg. 228)? Against living creatures they're meh, but against con - and the regular golems they are pretty brutal.

They:

Explicitly affect constructs
Only are considered a death effect when typed for LIVING creatures, so not even death immunity can save them
Force a fort save on a creature with Con -.
Are save-or-die.

Expensive, but if I'm reading it correctly, fire enough of them and you should be able to kill even Tippy's Advanced Shadow Golems.

[Jack_Simth]

Expensive, but if I'm reading it correctly, fire enough of them and you should be able to kill even Tippy's Advanced Shadow Golems.While Tippy's Advanced Shadow Golems are nasty, the big thing about them is that they're mass-produced.... but yes, that's also a decent method.

[Tarvus]

While Tippy's Advanced Shadow Golems are nasty, the big thing about them is that they're mass-produced.... but yes, that's also a decent method.

Oh absolutely. It was more just an idea for solving the OP's problem.

If you are facing Tippyverse level numbers, maybe it would be time to consider forking the 100k GP for the Bow of Solars from BoED?
Though then comes the Windwalls and Control Weathers, and then the counter for that, and the counters for the counters ad nauseum.

[Emperor Tippy]

Who makes stupid Golems? You should always spend the extra 8,000 GP to give them an Int score equal to half your CL. It more than triples the combat effectiveness of your Golems for a cut rate price.

[Tarvus]

Who makes stupid Golems? You should always spend the extra 8,000 GP to give them an Int score equal to half your CL. It more than triples the combat effectiveness of your Golems for a cut rate price.

So it is true - say his name 3 times and he does appear! :smallbiggrin:

Having an int score doesn't really invalidate the tactics above, but you've piqued my curiosity. How do you give a golem an Int score? Awaken makes them independent (and only 3d6, not 0.5*CL anyway) and I don't remember anything about it in the rules in MM1. Then again golem creation isn't my forte.

EDIT: Nvm, Rudimentary Intelligence from Dragon #327.

[Jack_Simth]

Who makes stupid Golems?Anyone who doesn't have access to Dragon #327 in-game, obviously, and many people who aren't using much optimization. The OP didn't specify available sources, the implications of how things were stated suggested the apparently problematic player wasn't using much optimization, and Dragon Magazine is a commonly rejected source at many tables, so most of those replying went with "mindless golems" as the default.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Wouldn't a maximized, empowered Awaken give a golem an INT score of 27?

[Andezzar]

Wouldn't a maximized, empowered Awaken give a golem an INT score of 27?Nope. 18+d6


An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus one-half the normally rolled result.

[Nibbens]

Unfortunately, I went the other way and told my Golem-Master that he could only bring his favorite personalized golem into the fights and not all 100 of the bastards. I'm sorry, but it's an offence to everyone else at the table when they only get one move and one standard action, and the one character get's 20-25 individualized turns.

It presents a problem on the DM side (how do I create a challenging enough combat scenario for my players to equally challenge everyone) and it creates a Player side problem (They get bored waiting for him to finish and feel like they don't matter - making them only sticking around the table because they all know each other when they'd rather be doing something else.)

I'm sorry, I'd just tell the golemancer to pull back some, but that's my baggage.

[genubath]

At the risk of posting on a dead thread,

Why not counter with another army? Undead, Construct, Demon, Devil, Angel, whatever.
A villain finds/makes/steals a magical MacGuffin that allows him to seize control of the player's hard earned golem army. Suddenly the players are on the back foot, and now they not only have to contend with their adversaries and an army of their own making, but also they no longer can hide behind their own army.
Historically, powerful armies were nullified by powerful navies. Their army is useless if they need to transport their army across an ocean that is plagued by sea monsters, bad weather, and an opposing Navy.