Goodberry questions

[Dalebert]

Does a goodberry also prevent dehydration? In other words, would you consider your body's fluid needs as "nourishment"?

Can you cram one between an unconscious character's molars and squeeze his jaw shut to stabilize and wake him up? I realize this is DM fiat territory so I'm curious of how you would handle it. Help me make the case to my DM... or not.

[SharkForce]

i would count water as part of nourishment.

i would allow you to feed them to an unconscious person (otherwise how could you bring people back from being mostly dead all day with a miracle pill?).

[hymer]

Does a goodberry also prevent dehydration? In other words, would you consider your body's fluid needs as "nourishment"?

Can you cram one between an unconscious character's molars and squeeze his jaw shut to stabilize and wake him up? I realize this is DM fiat territory so I'm curious of how you would handle it. Help me make the case to my DM... or not.

I'd DM 'no' on both counts. The first one I'd go against, because Goodberry already makes Create Food and Water nearly obsolete (and Goodberry is lower level to boot). No need to go further, and start in on Create or Destroy Water, too.
No to the second bit, because this is one of the few disadvantages of Goodberry compared to other healing spells. People have to spend actions to use them. I might fluff it to mean that the action of eating the berry has spiritual significance. It's not just the berry's pulp and flesh that's good for you.

That said, as player I'd be okay with the DM going any old way with this.

Edit: I don't think unconscious people are so easy to feed, by the way. I usually allow PCs to pour potions into unconscious characters, but always make sure to warn against trying this at home. Drowning in a healing potions is pretty ironic. Drowning in a potion of water breathing is worse.

[Demonic Spoon]

Goodberry is available to druids and create food and water is clerics, right? That alone can justify the difference. Also, I don't think Goodberry is a ritual.

OP, I'd say yes to both counts.

[Dalebert]

No to the second bit, because this is one of the few disadvantages of Goodberry compared to other healing spells. People have to spend actions to use them.

How is cramming a berry into someone's mouth not an action? It's also zero range, and fewer HP than CW (specifically 1). In fact, as a DM, I'd probably rule it's distracting enough that you open up to AoOs and are considered prone for the turn. There are enough downsides that it seems like it should be allowed without breaking the game. They're then one hit away from going down again if they don't get further healing immediately.


Edit: I don't think unconscious people are so easy to feed, by the way. I usually allow PCs to pour potions into unconscious characters, but always make sure to warn against trying this at home. Drowning in a healing potions is pretty ironic. Drowning in a potion of water breathing is worse.

But we're talking a tiny berry carefully placed to be bitten down on. The juice from that is not going to choke anyone by comparison to a potion. If you let people feed potions to someone, this seems even less problematic and easier to buy.

[SharkForce]

funny, i consider not needing to track food ever again to be a feature, not a bug.

i mean, in rare situations i suppose tracking food and water could be a key element of the game - i probably wouldn't let it just replace water needs in a dark sun game, for example.

but for normal settings? no thanks. so far as i'm concerned, being able to completely abstract that out of existence is something that was probably going to happen anyways, more or less.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

You don't need goodberry to remove food/water tracking. That's an easy agreement to make with the DM, like mundane ammo tracking. And if the DM is insistent on tracking such things, they'll likely resist you on trying to use a spell to take it out anyway.

[SharkForce]

You don't need goodberry to remove food/water tracking. That's an easy agreement to make with the DM, like mundane ammo tracking. And if the DM is insistent on tracking such things, they'll likely resist you on trying to use a spell to take it out anyway.

i don't need it, but it is a very easy justification for removing it.

[hymer]

@ Demonic Spoon: You're right, that is a noteworthy difference in most cases. Druids can get Create Food and Water, though (via Desert Land druid IIRC), and it's pretty much a waste for them, especially since Goodberry will let them do the feeding thing on top of being a useful way to regain hit points for a lower level slot. C F&W does just the one thing.
And you're right that Goodberry isn't a ritual. It would be pretty extreme if it was. :smallsmile: But neither is any Create X spell as far as I know. So I'm not sure what you're getting at there.


How is cramming a berry into someone's mouth not an action?

I guess I wasn't perfectly clear. Goodberry (also) costs actions for the one to be healed, with all that it entails.


It's also zero range, and fewer HP than CW (specifically 1). In fact, as a DM, I'd probably rule it's distracting enough that you open up to AoOs and are considered prone for the turn. There are enough downsides that it seems like it should be allowed without breaking the game. They're then one hit away from going down again if they don't get further healing immediately.

Goodberry does its healing best where healing is best done - between fights. It also never risks overhealing, and it can be split out among as many targets as you like. And for a first level slot, it has perefectly dependable and high output - the highest on average. In many (most? guess that depends on how you count) ways it is the superior healing spell in addition to its nutritious qualities, and it needs no buffing at all. It is both powerful and versatile.
I'd not let someone feed a berry to someone unconscious as an action in a six second round. Even if the DM were to allow it, I would only do it as a player to save a campaign or something of that magnitude. It's well beyond my suspension of disbelief. It's already impossible given that people can't swallow when unconscious, but it would also take longer than better-part-of-six-seconds. Chewing a berry with someone else's teeth... I mean, try it, if you're so inclined. How do you keep the berry in position and close the jaw? You'd have to mash the berry against the teeth with your fingers, at which point you just have a mashed berry in an unconscious person's mouth, and gunk on your hands. Or balance it carefully on one molar, and then shut the mouth without the berry leaving its perch. Worse is the image of someone taking time out of a fight to pop a berry into someone else's mouth and make chewing motions.
Don't get me wrong, your opinion may vary, and you should do what you like. I wouldn't like such a ruling of yours, though.


But we're talking a tiny berry carefully placed to be bitten down on. The juice from that is not going to choke anyone by comparison to a potion. If you let people feed potions to someone, this seems even less problematic and easier to buy.

From a believability standpoint, yes, if you already allow potions on the unconscious. It doesn't overcome the rules problems, though. If a player argued like that to my ruling, I'd suggest we could take away potion feeding too to remain consistent, and have it up for a vote at table.

[odigity]

I guess I wasn't perfectly clear. Goodberry (also) costs actions for the one to be healed, with all that it entails.

Goodberry does its healing best where healing is best done - between fights...

I unfortunately have to agree with this. It goes:

* Cure Wounds: HYBRID (and usually SUBOPTIMAL except for Warlocks) -- in combat (sometimes via familiar) if you have nothing more effective to do with your action (support role); otherwise merely a great way to blow the rest of your Warlock spells before short rest
* Healing Word: COMBAT -- the spell of choice for in-combat when a char's at 0
* Goodberry: NON-COMBAT -- the spell of choice for post-combat fill up

[Dalebert]

That's all fine. I would not argue with a DM over these points. I just don't think it's that big a deal one way or the other. I do agree it's the ideal spell for non-combat heals but feeding a berry to someone seemed to have enough downsides* versus the other methods to not be game-breaking at all. *shrug*

* As I said, as a DM, I would make them prone for the turn and give AoOs to enemies.

[Felvion]

I unfortunately have to agree with this. It goes:

* Cure Wounds: HYBRID (and usually SUBOPTIMAL except for Warlocks) -- in combat (sometimes via familiar) if you have nothing more effective to do with your action (support role); otherwise merely a great way to blow the rest of your Warlock spells before short rest
* Healing Word: COMBAT -- the spell of choice for in-combat when a char's at 0
* Goodberry: NON-COMBAT -- the spell of choice for post-combat fill up

Are you reffering to multiclass warlocks? Maybe i've missed something but what does healing have to do with the warlock class?

[Dalebert]

Are you reffering to multiclass warlocks? Maybe i've missed something but what does healing have to do with the warlock class?

He is. My warlock took it as a 1st level bard for exactly the reasons given.

[SharkForce]

Are you reffering to multiclass warlocks? Maybe i've missed something but what does healing have to do with the warlock class?

magic initiate or tome pact.

and i imagine it's related to the automatic scaling spell slots that recharge on a short rest that makes cure wounds a bit better. when you're forced to use a level 5 slot, cure wounds scales better (though still poorly) than goodberry or healing word.

[Segev]

Goodberry absolutely provides your water as well as food needs.

It also can be used to stabilize unconscious people; it provides 1 hp of healing. It's like a potion in that respect.

This has been true in every edition, and with 5e's more colloquial wording than 3e, there's absolutely no reason to assume that it would have changed these things without it spelling out these (new) limitations.

[Dalebert]

magic initiate or tome pact.

Magic initiate--yes. There's no way to get it via tome pact. That only gets you 3 cantrips and possibly rituals.


This has been true in every edition, and with 5e's more colloquial wording than 3e, there's absolutely no reason to assume that it would have changed these things without it spelling out these (new) limitations.

I don't think that carries much water. It's pretty clear that nothing is assumed to carryover from previous additions. Also, more is left up to DM fiat. So it pretty much comes down to whether the DM wants to allow it or not.

I was pleased to discover my DM is allowing it. He hardly gave it a thought. I even mentioned to him the issues brought up in this thread, potentially shooting myself in the foot :) , but he maintained his position. I really do not feel strongly about it. It just doesn't seem like a big enough deal either way.

Funny enough, we had the cleric go down in a fight last night and then take yet another hit before anyone had a chance to do anything. I ended up using Healing Word even with the Goodberry option being there. I just couldn't afford to fart around with this tactic. It just doesn't feel like a hugely impacting factor to allow it or not.

[Orvir]

Goodberry absolutely provides your water as well as food needs.

It also can be used to stabilize unconscious people; it provides 1 hp of healing. It's like a potion in that respect.

This has been true in every edition, and with 5e's more colloquial wording than 3e, there's absolutely no reason to assume that it would have changed these things without it spelling out these (new) limitations.

I don't know that I agree with that. The spell has changed significantly from 2/3e. Older versions produced fewer berries that lasted longer, fed for 1 med meal rather than an entire day and had a healing limit per day. They also did not mention requiring an action to ingest.

If you were going to go with the idea that previous editions influence the interpretation of the current one, then these descriptions imply it is food only, not water.


...enable a hungry creature of approximately man size to eat one and be as well-nourished as if a full normal meal was eaten, or else cure 1 point of physical damage from wounds or other similar causes, subject to a maximum of 8 points of such curing in any 24-hour period.


...nourishes a creature as if it were a normal meal for a Medium-size creature. The berry also cures 1 point of damage when eaten, subject to a maximum of 8 points of such curing in any 24-hour period.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/goodberry.htm

For the rest of you guys who are concerned about breaking downtime healing, you could try house-ruling a healing per day limit like the old versions had. Maybe your level/day in healing?

[Galen]

Goodberry absolutely provides your water as well as food needs.

It also can be used to stabilize unconscious people; it provides 1 hp of healing. It's like a potion in that respect.

This has been true in every edition, and with 5e's more colloquial wording than 3e, there's absolutely no reason to assume that it would have changed these things without it spelling out these (new) limitations.
The RAW states very clearly that eating a Goodberry is an action. Contrary to your assertion, there's nothing colloquial about this wording, it clearly states it's an Action - a game term. And unconscious people can't take actions. So the rules are not on your side here. But honestly, I wouldn't mind an ally taking that action instead of the unconscious character, putting the berry in his mouth and gently moving his jaws, sock-puppet-style.

[Giant2005]

How many Goodberries do you think one could jam in their mouth as part of their free action?

[Gritmonger]

How many Goodberries do you think one could jam in their mouth as part of their free action?

Unfortunately it won't matter - they can only chew one per action, so they'll have chipmunk-cheeks for half the combat for what would be a requires-an-action regen - though for a thief rogue, they could probably chew as a bonus action.

Potion says specifically action taken to administer - it looks like goodberry is self-administration only.

[Giant2005]

Unfortunately it won't matter - they can only chew one per action, so they'll have chipmunk-cheeks for half the combat for what would be a requires-an-action regen - though for a thief rogue, they could probably chew as a bonus action.

Potion says specifically action taken to administer - it looks like goodberry is self-administration only.

Yeah I see that now.
I wonder why that would be in game? Are Goodberries super chewy or dry or something? Maybe they have low levels of toxicity and if you eat them too fast you get sick?

[Zyzzyva]

Yeah I see that now.
I wonder why that would be in game? Are Goodberries super chewy or dry or something? Maybe they have low levels of toxicity and if you eat them too fast you get sick?

I suspect it's because you're not getting nourished by the goodberry's juices; you're being nourished by the mystically wholistic act of eating the goodberry, or some such.

That said, the image of a Druid mashing a fistful of goodberries into the party Fighter's face is also pretty great.

[Safety Sword]

Clearly need to develop an in-game Nutri-Bullet and blend the goodberry into a smoothie.

Frappe of Fortitude anyone?

[Gritmonger]

Yeah I see that now.
I wonder why that would be in game? Are Goodberries super chewy or dry or something? Maybe they have low levels of toxicity and if you eat them too fast you get sick?

I was thinking the same thing - that "Good" Berry is a deliberate, ironic misnomer - and they taste like medicine, smell like bactine, and look like a pile of fishhooks stuck through a gummie bear.

Edit: New fad; the D&D 5th Edition Goodberry Challenge - how many can you choke down in a row?

[Battlebooze]

I was thinking the same thing - that "Good" Berry is a deliberate, ironic misnomer - and they taste like medicine, smell like bactine, and look like a pile of fishhooks stuck through a gummie bear.

Edit: New fad; the D&D 5th Edition Goodberry Challenge - how many can you choke down in a row?

So Goodberries are like orcish healing potions? So noxious and horrible, the recipient self heals just to get out of eating them?


~Orc with arm cut off, laying on ground.~

Orcish healer holds out a steaming fresh bowl of "Orcish healing Potion."

First Orc stands back up immediately. "I don't need, I feel betta! Me good!" Then runs off into battle, leaving severed arm behind.

[Chronos]

Another benefit of the spell in this edition as opposed to older editions is that you no longer need the berries to cast it on-- They just magically appear in your hand. That's usually not a big deal, but in the sorts of situations where you would be tracking food and water, it can matter.

And if we're going to be comparing cleric vs. druid healing, clerics are better for out-of-combat, thanks to Prayer of Healing.

[xroads]

I've always wondered about the nourishment part. One berry is supposed to provide enough nourishment for a day. So if you eat all ten berries to gain ten hit points, are you also gorging on a week and half of nourishment? Should said character suddenly become exhausted as his body fights off the food coma gained from eating the equivalent of several Thanksgiving dinners? :smallbiggrin:

[Naanomi]

A high-level caster can pump out hundreds of berries a day, enough to feed people trapped underground (or something) for a long time. Be wary of the Bag-Wars if you start stuffing people in your bag-of-holding and one is a druid who can keep them all fed while they plot revenge against you...

[jazzymantis]

I would allow the stabilizing with a buddies actions, but not the nurishment=water argument. Just food for goodberries.