Druid either monks belt: unarmed strike?

[Hiro Quester]

Playing a core(ish druid) who just acquired a monk's belt. See previous conversation about whether to use the belt here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?390192-Core-Druid-monks-belt-vs-wild-armor)

I get the wisdom to AC thing. That was the point. Now I'm trying to understand how the unarmed strike will interact with wildshaping.

Im planning to wear the belt while wildshaped, when the animal could have a belt tied on by a party member; bears yes, eagles and rats not likely). But how does this line of the belt's description work:


If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-level monk.

The monk's unarmed damage, if that means unarmed strike damage, grants a larger dice for unarmed strikes.


A monk also deals more damage with her unarmed strikes than a normal person would, as shown on Table: The Monk.
A small person hitting like a 5th level monk uses d6 damage, medium d8, large 2d6.

I see how that would work for a humanoid throwing a punch. But what about when wildshaped into a bear or an eagle? Does "person" in the description rule this out, effectively meaning "humanoid"?

Would an animal's natural weapons now count as unarmed strikes, and use the larger dice (e.g. medium black bear claws change from d4 to d8 damage?).

Or does "unarmed" mean fists only, but not claws?

The description of the monks unarmed strike class ability, says the fists are treated as natural weapons or manufactured weapons. It's not clear to me how to handle the converse: natural weapons treated as monk's unarmed strikes.

Neither I nor DM have dealt with a druid with a monk's belt before. Any advice?

[DrMotives]

It's the same as if you had an awakened animal with monk levels. "Unarmed strike" is a natural weapon that follows monk rules, and can't be used with other natural weapons. So, if a bear bear monk attacks, it can choose to use either bear claw / claw / bite routine as a normal bear, or just go as a large monk with whatever strength score it has. Not both at once, not large monk damage on its claw attacks. What the bear is doing if using monk attacks, is just what a human monk does; attack with paws, elbows, head butts, hip checks, whatever.

[Urpriest]

It's the same as if you had an awakened animal with monk levels. "Unarmed strike" is a natural weapon that follows monk rules, and can't be used with other natural weapons. So, if a bear bear monk attacks, it can choose to use either bear claw / claw / bite routine as a normal bear, or just go as a large monk with whatever strength score it has. Not both at once, not large monk damage on its claw attacks. What the bear is doing if using monk attacks, is just what a human monk does; attack with paws, elbows, head butts, hip checks, whatever.

You have absolutely no support for this claim, and it's contradicted by every monster that uses both manufactured weapons and natural attacks in the game.

In general, the monk's unarmed strike is indeed a different natural weapon from the bear's claws and bites. That means that they don't influence eachother, you indeed don't deal monk unarmed strike damage on your claw or bite, or vice versa.

Attacking with an unarmed strike works like attacking with a manufactured weapon: you get attacks determined by your Base Attack Bonus. All other natural weapons become secondary weapons instead of primary ones, with all that entails (if you don't know what that entails, as someone playing a Druid you absolutely need to read up on how monsters work...the guide in my sig is a good start, there's a guide to natural weapons contained within...in general, never play a Druid without understanding how monster stats work!). So as a bear you'd get your Unarmed Strike, then bite and two claws, with the latter at a -5 penalty and adding only half Str to damage because they're secondary weapons.

[atemu1234]

Isn't everything fused with the druid when he's wildshaped?

[Darrin]

A small person hitting like a 5th level monk uses d6 damage, medium d8, large 2d6.


Yep. However, the Monk's Belt does not grant you the Improved Unarmed Strike feat by RAW, so you would still provoke AoOs if you attacked with your unarmed strike.



I see how that would work for a humanoid throwing a punch. But what about when wildshaped into a bear or an eagle? Does "person" in the description rule this out, effectively meaning "humanoid"?


No. There is nothing in the Monk's Belt description that says it only works on humanoids or when the wearer has a humanoid shape. Non-humanoid creatures can wear belts and gain all of the abilities offered by the belt. If the creature's size is larger or smaller than the monk tables in the PHB, then you'll have to adjust the unarmed damage up or down. There's a table on page 114 of the PHB for smaller/larger weapons, but you can also use the damage progression from the "Improved Natural Attack" entry in the Monster Manual.



Would an animal's natural weapons now count as unarmed strikes, and use the larger dice (e.g. medium black bear claws change from d4 to d8 damage?).


No. Unarmed strike is a natural weapon on its own, but there are several exceptions in the rules on how it works. The number of attacks you get with unarmed strike is determined by your BAB, same as with your manufactured weapons. When you attack with unarmed strikes, any natural weapons you may have become secondary attacks: -5 attack penalty, and 1/2 Str bonus on damage. You can attack with unarmed strikes and all your natural weapons as part of a full-round attack. As a medium bear, you'd make your iterative attacks with your unarmed strikes, and then get claw/claw/bite after that.



Or does "unarmed" mean fists only, but not claws?


The striking surface you're using with unarmed strike is an abstraction. You can fluff it however you want: fist, knee, elbow, headbutt, etc. Sometimes the designers get confused and insist that unarmed strike involves your fists (such as with the Kensai PrC), but the bulk of the rules we have on unarmed strikes doesn't really support this.



The description of the monks unarmed strike class ability, says the fists are treated as natural weapons or manufactured weapons. It's not clear to me how to handle the converse: natural weapons treated as monk's unarmed strikes.


It's not clear that you get the benefits of the monk's unarmed strike class features, as the Monk's Belt says you only get the unarmed strike damage. Donning the Monk's Belt doesn't give you any additional natural weapons or augment any other natural weapons you may already have (claws/bite/etc.). All it does is increase the damage of your unarmed strike (which you already had). By RAW, it does not also give you Improved Unarmed Strike or any other benefits of the monk's unarmed strike class ability. However, you may want to talk this over with your DM and see if he's inclined to house-rule that it does give you the full benefits of the monk's class feature, which would give you Improved Unarmed Strike, the ability to switch between lethal/nonlethal damage, the ability to treat it as a manufactured weapon, and full Str bonus on damage.



Neither I nor DM have dealt with a druid with a monk's belt before. Any advice?

If your DM rules that you don't get Improved Unarmed Strike from the Monk's Belt, then I'd advise picking this feat up. This is generally referred to as "Kung Fu Panda", and it gives you additional attacks in whatever form you choose to wild-shape into, as well as resolving the "provokes an AoO" problem. However, some DM's have a hard time imagining how this looks, and may declare that you can't use Improved Unarmed Strike in some forms because it offends their idea of "realism" or some such thing (because wizards shooting fire out of their fingers is "realistic" but a panda doing a karate chop isn't).


Isn't everything fused with the druid when he's wildshaped?

The OP said the other party members will be putting the belt on the druid after he wildshapes.

[Bronk]

Isn't everything fused with the druid when he's wildshaped?

Everything worn would normally be fused, although the wilding clasp would prevent that. Hiro Quester is getting around that by having a teammate put it on him after he's already changed.

I'd also point out that even without the monk's belt, a wild shaped druid can use unarmed strike without monk levels or even the improved unarmed strike feat, it would just be at the base level of damage for the wild shaped size, would provoke an attack of opportunity, and not be eligible for being enhanced with Magic Fang spells.

[Darrin]

I'd also point out that even without the monk's belt, a wild shaped druid can use unarmed strike without monk levels or even the improved unarmed strike feat, it would just be at the base level of damage for the wild shaped size, would provoke an attack of opportunity, and not be eligible for being enhanced with Magic Fang spells.

Magic fang always works on unarmed strike, regardless of whether the creature has monk levels or Improved Unarmed Strike. It's magic weapon that won't work on unarmed strike, unless it's cast on a monk.

[eggynack]

Everything worn would normally be fused, although the wilding clasp would prevent that. Hiro Quester is getting around that by having a teammate put it on him after he's already changed.
Y'know, I read that trick a lot, and I don't really see how it works. After all, the PHB errata specifies that, "Any new items worn in the assumed form fall off and land at the druid's feet." The trick's prevalence may precede the errata though. In any case, rules legal or not, this is apparently rules legal in this particular game, as the DM allowed it, so things are presumably fine.

[Darrin]

Y'know, I read that trick a lot, and I don't really see how it works. After all, the PHB errata specifies that, "Any new items worn in the assumed form fall off and land at the druid's feet." The trick's prevalence may precede the errata though. In any case, rules legal or not, this is apparently rules legal in this particular game, as the DM allowed it, so things are presumably fine.

The errata is ambiguous. I think it refers to the previous sentence:

"When the druid reverts to her true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on her body that they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items worn in the assumed form fall off and land at the druid's feet."

As in, when you revert to your original form, any new items you were wearing while wildshaped land at the druid's feat. Thus, you can put on items while wildshaped, and this sentence just describes what happens to them when you end the wildshape.

I'm having a hard time imagining that this prevents you from putting on items after wildshaping. None of the other "alternate form/polymorph" abilities work that way, and the MIC was pretty explicit that non-humanoids still get item slots and can wear magic items.

[eggynack]

I suppose that is a plausible reading.

[Bronk]

Magic fang always works on unarmed strike, regardless of whether the creature has monk levels or Improved Unarmed Strike. It's magic weapon that won't work on unarmed strike, unless it's cast on a monk.

It would make sense that way, but unfortunately regular unarmed strikes (and strikes modified by the improved unarmed strike feat) are treated as light weapons. It's only the monk's unarmed strike class feature that treats them as natural attacks.


Y'know, I read that trick a lot, and I don't really see how it works. After all, the PHB errata specifies that, "Any new items worn in the assumed form fall off and land at the druid's feet." The trick's prevalence may precede the errata though. In any case, rules legal or not, this is apparently rules legal in this particular game, as the DM allowed it, so things are presumably fine.

The full quote is: "Any gear worn or carried by the druid melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When the druid reverts to her true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on her body that they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items worn in the assumed form fall off and land at the druid's feet."

His belt would only fall off when he ends wild shape.

[Hiro Quester]

Thanks, everyone. Especially Darrin. I understand the belt, and various Monk abilities, much better now.

And yes, the plan is to wear the belt (and periapt of wisdom) normally, take them off and give them to party member, change shape and get friend to put them back on my animal form. When done wildshape, they fall at my feet to put back on.

[Darrin]

It would make sense that way, but unfortunately regular unarmed strikes (and strikes modified by the improved unarmed strike feat) are treated as light weapons. It's only the monk's unarmed strike class feature that treats them as natural attacks.


The magic weapon text unambiguously states that unarmed strikes are natural weapons. The Monk class ability adds to this that they may be treated as manufactured weapons for certain spells and effects, which again the magic weapon text explains unambiguously. Of course, it would have helped if the designers had spelled this out more clearly somewhere else, such as the combat section that deals with unarmed strikes.

The fact that unarmed strike is a light weapon has nothing to do with whether it's considered manufactured or not. All natural weapons are considered light weapons, although the designers picked a rather odd spot to note this (the Weapon Finesse entry).



His belt would only fall off when he ends wild shape.

Good to know I'm not the only one that reads it that way.

[Bronk]

The magic weapon text unambiguously states that unarmed strikes are natural weapons.

It does mention that in the spell, but the primary source for unarmed strikes is the text accompanying its entry in the weapon table.