Whip Master build optimization

[Rolero]

Hi folks, I've been bored this past days, so I kill the boredom making a build for a specialized whip combatant. After some combinations, I have reach this current build, which I present with all the levels progresion and some raw numbers:

Race: Half Elf
Alternate Racial traits: Dual Minded
Character Traits: Second chance, Magical Knack (Magus)

Class: Magus (Kensai) 11, Fighter (Lore Warden / Martial Master) 9

Abilities: (25 point buy +2 to Dex)

11/19/14/16/10/7

Level 20 cap

17/34/20/26/16/13 (+5 to Dex +6 Items + 2x +4 Tomes to Dex & Int)

HP 223

AC 38

FOR +23 REF +23 WIL +20

BA +17

CMB +33 CMD 51

Skills: Perception, Spellcraft, Use magic device, Knowledge (arcana, nature, planes) maxed

Inic +20

Progresion

01 - Kensai 01 - Arcane pool, Cantrips, Spell combat, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Whip), Weapon focus (Whip), Weapon Finesse
02 - Kensai 02 - Spell strike
03 - Fighter 01 - Whip Mastery, Serpent Lash
04 - Fighter 02 - Combat expertise, Arcane strike
05 - Kensai 03 - Magus arcana (Arcane Accuracy), Greater Serpent Lash
06 - Fighter 03 - Maneuver Mastery
07 - Fighter 04 - Combat Reflexes, Improved Whip Mastery
08 - Fighter 05 - Martial Flexibility
09 - Kensai 04 - Perfect Strike, Pirahna Strike
10 - Kensai 05 - Lunge
11 - Kensai 06 - Magus arcana (Lingering Pain), Disruptive
12 - Kensai 07 - Fighter Training, Iaijutsu
13 - Fighter 06 - Spell breaker, Teleport tactician
14 - Fighter 07 - Know Thy Enemy
15 - Fighter 08 - Pin Down, Greater weapon focus
16 - Kensai 08 - Improved Spell combat
17 - Fighter 09 - Weapon specialization (Whip)
18 - kensai 09 - Critical Perfection
19 - Kensai 10 - Greater weapon specialization
20 - Kensai 11 - Superior Reflexes, Greater Whip Mastery

Notable gear: Agile Scorpion Whip, Belt of physical perfection +6, Headband of mental superiority +6, Manual of Quickness of Action +4, Tome of Clear Thought +4 Cloak of Resistance +5, Bracers of armor +8

Comments:

First, I made him half-elf for the multitalented trait, making him human will net an additional feat, but I don't think is necessary, since you end up with 20 feats anyway, and in exchange you can get a +2 to Will with the Dual mind trait which is always welcomed for a warrior type.

At the beggining I considered taking an inicial dip to Bard to grab the Whip proficiency, but in the end the Kensai worked better since it grants weapon focus too, which is need in the whip mastery feat tree. I have another build which starts as a warrior and ditch the kensai for a normal magus. But the canny defense ability is really good for a Light Armored character.

The main focus of the build is to be an annoying battlefield controller warrior. Having the ability to enlarge yourself and the whip's reach combined with its feats, nets you a 15' threatening area, and a reach of 30', both expandable with lunge.
In lower levels, you are terrible in dealing damage, so the main objetive is to focus on triping and disarming with your whip and use Serpent Lash to try to get two enemies per turn.
Once you reach 7th level, you become an AoO nightmare, and by this level you should have gotten an Agile Scorpion Whip, which should be your very first important buy, so combined with arcane strike, you can start to deliver serius pain.

While the Magus class ends up being the one with more levels, for the majority of the build acts as a support, neting some buffs and an ocassional bost to damage through spell strike. By mid-high levels, you can pile lots of bonuses and being able to score any maneouver, which you can get through Martial versatily if needed.

This build works greatly with another melee character more focused in damage dealing, like a 2H weapons warrior or a rogue. One trick I like a lot is to use Greater Serpent Lash to reposition a dangerous enemy to a flanking position and let your companion finish the job. Freedom of movement does not prevent this and you get to move him anywhere within your reach, as long as you exceed his CMD for an appropiate amont (and you should). If you have some dps pal around, this can be a killer move for any enemy mage.

In later levels, with Pin Down, Disruptive, Spell breaker, Lingering pain, Teleport tactician and even a distracting weapon, this character is essentially a mage lock, and since in later levels almost everything have some dangerous magic tricks, He stays relevant in almost any encounter.

The numbers presented do not count any bonuses archived through buffs and class skills, and only the equipement listed is taking into that math.

I think the build works well as it is, but I would like to read some expert opinions and suggestions.

And by the way, Merry Christmas!

[Elricaltovilla]

Rule 1 of pathfinder, don't dip. Coming from 3.5 it can sound odd, since y'know nobody had class features so there was no reason not to dip. But every level of one class you're taking is a level of progression on an important class feature that you're missing out on.

In short, either go Kensai Magus 20 or Lorewarden Fighter 20. In order to possibly pump up both builds, consider adding bladebound (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/bladebound) to your magus to maximize your spellstrike reach and still get access to the 6th level spells you really need, or slap Martial Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/martial-master) on to your Lorewarden fighter to get the feat flexibility that the fighter so desperately needs.

In either case, you'll end up around tier 3, with the magus being at the upper end and the fighter being at the lower end, but both will have the flexibility you need in order to be effective in combat. Your fighter option is going to rely on Dirty Trick and Trip to lay down the debuffs and the hurt, while the magus is going to spellstrike at range with the whip, using shocking grasp, frostbite, frigid touch, and arcane mark.

I'd actually recommend the fighter in this case, as magus really benefits from having an expanded crit range to really pump its damage, so something like a scimitar is needed in order to get the best out of the magus. The fighter on the other hand can afford to lose a little damage in order to maximize its threatened area and drop lots of debuffs on the enemy.

[stack]

Wand wielder arcana to true strike with spell combat all day long.

[Rolero]

Rule 1 of pathfinder, don't dip. Coming from 3.5 it can sound odd, since y'know nobody had class features so there was no reason not to dip. But every level of one class you're taking is a level of progression on an important class feature that you're missing out on.

I agree with you, but with this build I still get goodies every level, so I don't think is so bad.


In short, either go Kensai Magus 20 or Lorewarden Fighter 20. In order to possibly pump up both builds, consider adding bladebound (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/bladebound) to your magus to maximize your spellstrike reach and still get access to the 6th level spells you really need, or slap Martial Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/martial-master) on to your Lorewarden fighter to get the feat flexibility that the fighter so desperately needs.

I considered the Bladebound but schewed it because it sacrifices the 3th level magus arcana (in this case, arcane accuracy) with helps a lot to pull maneovers off, and since it takes a while to advance with the magus class (due the share of levels with the fighter) it won't be relevant till very high levels.

I already combined the Lore warden with the Martial master. The only problem I see is that with this progresion, it takes to long to get the second extra feat, ergo, instant greater maneouver.


In either case, you'll end up around tier 3, with the magus being at the upper end and the fighter being at the lower end, but both will have the flexibility you need in order to be effective in combat. Your fighter option is going to rely on Dirty Trick and Trip to lay down the debuffs and the hurt, while the magus is going to spellstrike at range with the whip, using shocking grasp, frostbite, frigid touch, and arcane mark.

I'd actually recommend the fighter in this case, as magus really benefits from having an expanded crit range to really pump its damage, so something like a scimitar is needed in order to get the best out of the magus. The fighter on the other hand can afford to lose a little damage in order to maximize its threatened area and drop lots of debuffs on the enemy.

I used the Magus as magic backup/buffing, and extra damage, since a whip dedicated character takes some levels to start doing real damage, and it is really heavy feat invested, hence the fighter levels for feats and other extras.


Wand wielder arcana to true strike with spell combat all day long.

I intended to ^^


Well, as I said before, I have another build, this one purely martial and for variaty, I made him a Half Orc. Here it is:

Race: Half Orc
Alternate Racial traits: Sacred Tattoo, Shaman's Apprentice
Traits: Armor expert, Fate's Favored

Abilities:

19/16/13/13/10/7 (+2 to STR)

Class: Fighter (Lore Warden/Martial Master) 20

Progresion

1 - Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Whip), Weapon focus (Whip), Endurance
2 - Whip Mastery, Combat expertise
3 - Maneuver Mastery +2, Serpent Lash
4 - Greater Serpent Lash
5 - Martial Flexibility I, Improved Whip Mastery
6 - Combat Reflexes
7 - Maneuver Mastery +4, Know Thy Enemy, Lunge
8 - Disruptive
9 - Martial Flexibility II, Power attack
10 - Spellbreaker
11 - Maneuver Mastery +6, Hair’s Breadth, Pin Down
12 - Teleport tactician
13 - Two Weapon fighting
14 - Martial Flexibility III, Swift Lore, Doble Slice
15 - Maneuver Mastery +8, Improved Two Weapon fighting
16 - Penetrating Strike
17 - Martial Flexibility IV, Greater Penetrating Strike
18 - Weapon Specialization (Whip)
19 - Know Weakness, Greater Weapon focus
20 - Martial Flexibility V, Greater Weapon Specialization (Whip)

Since this don't need a free hand, I gave him two weapon fighting option at later levels, and some extra damage and DR bypass, since is very frequent at high levels.

Impresions?

[Dr.Bakuga]

Race: Elf
Alternate Racial traits: Arcane Focus
Traits: Focused Mind, Threatening Defender

Abilities:

15 Pointbuy:

13/16/10/17/10/8 (+2 to DEX/INT, -2 CON)

Class: Magus (Kensai) 20

Progression

1 - Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Whip), Weapon focus (Whip), Combat Expertise, Canny Defense, Cantrips, Spell Combat, Arcane Pool
2 - Spellstrike
3 - Whip Mastery, Magus Arcana(Wand Wielder)
4 - Perfect Strike
5 - Improved Reposition, Tactical Reposition
6 - Magus Arcana(Disruptive, Spell Blending(Mage Armor, Dazzling Blade))
7 - Improved Whip Mastery, Fighter Training(-3, favored weapon only), Iaijutsu
8 - Improved Spell Combat
9 - Critical Perfection, Combat Reflexes
10 - Fighter Training(1/2 lvl)
11 - Superior Reflexes, Extra Arcana(Spellbreaker), Teleport Tactician
12 - Magus Arcana(Maneuver Mastery: Reposition, Spell Blending(Spiked Pit, Mad Monkeys)
13 - Rime Spell, Iaijutsu Focus
14 - Greater Spell Combat
15 - Magus Arcana(Spell Blending(Bestow Curse, Illusory Wall)), Pin Down
16 - Counterstrike
17 - Improved Initiative, Greater Weapon Focus(Whip)
18 - Magus Arcana(Bane Blade, Familiar)
19 - Iaijutsu Master, Greater Whip Mastery
20 - Weapon Mastery(Whip)




Alternative Build:


5th level:
Swap Improved Reposition/Tactical Reposition for Improved Dirty Trick and Performance Weapon Mastery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/performance-weapon-mastery-combat)

Buy as many Serpentine Tattoos (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicTattooDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Serpentine%20Tat too) as you want: Immediate action Dirty Tricks whenever you attack with the whip.

11th level:
Replace Extra Arcana and Teleport Tactician with Greater Dirty Trick and Quick Dirty Trick.

13th:
Replace Rime Spell with Extra Arcana(Spellbreaker).

15th level:
Replace Maneuver Mastery: Reposition with Maneuver Mastery: Dirty Trick, replace Pin Down with Dirty Trick Master.

A quick dirty trick + immediate action dirty trick from a serpentine tatoo allows instant lockdown of a single opponent; this can be done as AoO.

17th:
Replace Improved Initiative with Teleport Tactician, GWF(Whip) with Pin Down.

EDIT:
Thank you for pointing out that Hexcrafter and Kensai may not be combined.

The build has been changed to reflect this.

Serpentine Tattoos are from Magical Marketplace, which has been published by Paizo; it is not a 3rd-party item.

[Rolero]

Thanks for the build suggestion, but it has a problem. You cannot combine Hexcrafter and Kensai, since both schew spell recall, and according to the archetypes combined rules, you cannot pair them if both discard or change the same class feature.

That said, I liked some of the suggestions like the Tactical reposition and the Serpentine tatoos (although, being 3rd party, I don't think my usual DM would roll with this)

[Stormageddon]

One thing against Kensai is that it does away Spell Recall which is the best thing ever!

[Rolero]

Hi, I revive my thread to leave here a short of mini guide for this kind of build at my last character themed for this aproach. Enjoy!

The Whip Master (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Kj6JQJeeZ0uAhfnX3AXRlyG7ivpjCWk_jbkoq0noD0c/edit?usp=sharing)

As quick reference: by level 10 you can get a +41 to your trip atemps and have a hit/damage of +20 (1D4+25)