Sneak attack on AD&D 2ed

[Godie1803]

Hi, we've recently started a campaign of AD&D 2ed and the thief prefers bows over melee weapons, the question is, can he deal sneak attacks with such weapon? Or is it mandatory to be a melee weapon? since in this edition is called backstab and it does not specify any type of weapon we are kind of lost here :/ any help?

[Lord Torath]

Hi, we've recently started a campaign of AD&D 2ed and the thief prefers bows over melee weapons, the question is, can he deal sneak attacks with such weapon? Or is it mandatory to be a melee weapon? since in this edition is called backstab and it does not specify any type of weapon we are kind of lost here :/ any help?By the book Ranged weapons are right out. I'm fairly certain it needs to be a sharp, one-handed melee weapon. You could house-rule a ranged weapon (maybe a shot at half short range, or just within 20-30 feet) if you want, certainly.

[LibraryOgre]

2e doesn't have much restriction on the backstabs... looking at the section on backstabs, it doesn't even specify that it has to be a melee weapon. We've always required that it be a melee weapon, and I think the text implies that it is, but I'd put this into the DMs hands.

[JadedDM]

The text has always been pretty vague in that regard. Some people say it must be a piercing melee weapon, because it's called 'backstab.' But I generally house rule that you can use any weapon, including ranged. It's usually pretty hard to pull off a backstab in the first place (the target must be unaware of the attack and even if you do pull it off, you only can do it once, because then you lose the element of surprise), so I don't find it overpowering to let a thief backstab with a bow.

Just one shot, though, because after that, as I said, the element of surprise is lost.

[veti]

The text has always been pretty vague in that regard. Some people say it must be a piercing melee weapon, because it's called 'backstab.' But I generally house rule that you can use any weapon, including ranged..

1st edition specifically said that it didn't have to be a pointy weapon, "backstabbing" could just as easily be done with a club or a half-brick in a sock. Given that 2e is basically the same game, I'd assume - pending direct contradiction - that the same applies.

I seem to recall reading something about ranged backstabbing, but not exactly what... Personally I'd be tempted to allow it, but only at short range.

[Digitalelf]

There is some interesting language in the skill's description that needs to be considered:


Finally, the thief has to be able to reach a significant target area. To backstab a giant, the thief would have to be standing on a ledge or window balcony. Backstabbing him in the ankle just isn't going to be as effective.

If a thief were able to use a ranged weapon for backstabbing, why then does the Player's Handbook say that the thief must be standing on a ledge or window balcony in order to backstab a giant instead of just saying that the thief could opt to throw his dagger or use a bow instead?

Just something to think about...

[Jay R]

From The Dragon #210, "Sage Advice":
Question: Can thieves use their backstab damage multiplier when using a thrown weapon such as a dagger?
Answer (Skip Williams): The rules don't say the thief has to use a melee weapon to make a backstab, but I don't recommend that you allow backstabbing with missiles-it makes the ability too easy to use.

[LibraryOgre]

From The Dragon #210, "Sage Advice":
Question: Can thieves use their backstab damage multiplier when using a thrown weapon such as a dagger?
Answer (Skip Williams): The rules don't say the thief has to use a melee weapon to make a backstab, but I don't recommend that you allow backstabbing with missiles-it makes the ability too easy to use.

I maintain that, as players, we never consulted sages in-game because of how frequently and egregiously The Sage in Dragon was wrong.

[Jay R]

I maintain that, as players, we never consulted sages in-game because of how frequently and egregiously The Sage in Dragon was wrong.

Giggle.

But in this case, it was 100% right. The idea is that a Thief, as a sneak, was very good at getting close enough to place his attack precisely without being noticed. The thief is far less likely to be noticed at the last second by the victim that a brute fighter also attacking from behind. But being a sneak does not give you any particular advantage with a bow. But sneaking ability gives no particular advantage with a bow. Both the thief and the fighter are equally hidden before shooting the arrow from behind.

I never consulted a sage because the price was too high, and the codds of false information were too high.

[LibraryOgre]

But in this case, it was 100% right. The idea is that a Thief, as a sneak, was very good at getting close enough to place his attack precisely without being noticed. The thief is far less likely to be noticed at the last second by the victim that a brute fighter also attacking from behind. But being a sneak does not give you any particular advantage with a bow. But sneaking ability gives no particular advantage with a bow. Both the thief and the fighter are equally hidden before shooting the arrow from behind.


Then why can't rangers backstab? They can be just as quiet as thieves... as can elves and halflings.

I think it's equally about placement of the shot, and so wouldn't have an issue with a thief backstabbing with a ranged weapon, provided they were in a reasonable distance... say, half short range or better.

[Jay R]

Then why can't rangers backstab? They can be just as quiet as thieves... as can elves and halflings.

Sneaking is more than moving quietly. Rangers, elves, and halflings don't have any focus on reaching around to cut throats without bumping into shoulders.


I think it's equally about placement of the shot, and so wouldn't have an issue with a thief backstabbing with a ranged weapon, provided they were in a reasonable distance... say, half short range or better.

Feel free to run a game that way. But we never played original D&D or AD&D with ranged backstabbing.

[LibraryOgre]

Feel free to run a game that way. But we never played original D&D or AD&D with ranged backstabbing.

Neither have we. Just pointing out what the text says.

[Jay R]

Neither have we. Just pointing out what the text says.

The text says, "backstab". That can't be done with a missile weapon.

Also, the thief has to be able to reach the target area.

[MeeposFire]

The text says, "backstab". That can't be done with a missile weapon.

Also, the thief has to be able to reach the target area.

Indeed you need to reach the spot. If you are wielding a sword and want to stab a giant in a vulnerable place you need to make sure that you can reach it. If you allow ranged weapons it does make reaching your target much easier. Is it too easy? I don't really think so. In AD&D the hardest part of the backstab is to get the ability to even get to back stab in the first place (particularly in combat rather than an ambush) rather than getting in melee range.

[LibraryOgre]

The text says, "backstab". That can't be done with a missile weapon.

Also, the thief has to be able to reach the target area.

You could also argue that a "backstab" can't be done with a club, since you can't stab with a club, and that a thief can reach the target area with a thrown knife as well as by standing on a tree limb.

I'm not saying this is what's intended, or even how we've played it; I've never seen anyone allow a backstab in 2e with a ranged weapon without it being a special ability of a single individual (or homemade kit). I'm pretty sure if we went into other books (Complete Thief?), there's specific text that says you have to hit someone with a melee weapon. I'm only saying it's a not unreasonable interpretation of the text written, and might give a little luster to a thief or fighter/thief (who can use a heavy crossbow to backstab from a good distance... though I also tend to allow thieves to use crossbows).

[hamlet]

I just searched through the Thief's book and there's nothing in it that further clarifies backstabbing in general, nor are there any kits, that I can see, that single out backstabbing as a variant special ability.

As far as I can tell, "being able to reach the target" is simply a matter of how the DM interprets it. In my view, and always at my table, a well hidden thief with a bow is permitted his backstab bonus if he can manage it. It's sniping, essentially and I see no real issue with permitting it. As far as I can tell, it's intelligent play on the part of the player.

[Jay R]

You could also argue that a "backstab" can't be done with a club, since you can't stab with a club, and that a thief can reach the target area with a thrown knife as well as by standing on a tree limb.

I'm not saying this is what's intended, or even how we've played it; I've never seen anyone allow a backstab in 2e with a ranged weapon without it being a special ability of a single individual (or homemade kit). I'm pretty sure if we went into other books (Complete Thief?), there's specific text that says you have to hit someone with a melee weapon. I'm only saying it's a not unreasonable interpretation of the text written, and might give a little luster to a thief or fighter/thief (who can use a heavy crossbow to backstab from a good distance... though I also tend to allow thieves to use crossbows).

That makes sense. In my current 2E game, I specifically encouraged each player to ask for a personal exception. If a thief had asked for the ability to backstab with a ranged weapon, I'd have allowed it - though no other thief in teh world would be able to.

[Jigawatts]

In Wizards and Rogues of the Realms, under the entry of the High Dale rogue, it states the following:

The High Dale, a land noted for pleasant terraces and
gentle farms, is also remarkable because some of Faerûn's
most skilled assassins have grown up there. This is not
because of any cultural emphasis on violence or crime
but rather a result of the skill that its citizens traditionally
have with the bow.
When a rogue from this region employs a bow of any
sort in combat, he is able to add his missile attack adjustment
(as dictated by his Dexterity score) to both his attack
and damage rolls. For example, a character with a
16 Dexterity would cause an extra point of damage with
such weapons.
These characters make excellent snipers. Whenever
they fire on an unsuspecting target with a bow, the attack
is a “backstab”: The character receives a +4 bonus
to his attack roll and is able to apply the damage multiplier
appropriate to his level. When making this sort of
attack, the character does not have to be behind his target
to gain the benefits of a backstab.

Their disadvantage is they can only use small sized melee weapons and cant wear armor of any kind.

[D+1]

I maintain that, as players, we never consulted sages in-game because of how frequently and egregiously The Sage in Dragon was wrong.My advice has always been to treat Sage Advice as... merely advice. Answers, final decisions, must be made by DM's who make up their own minds. Consider the Sage's advice if you like, but DO NOT consider it to be the last word. Don't let someone else tell you how to rule in your own game unless you ASK for their opinions.


Then why can't rangers backstab? They can be just as quiet as thieves... as can elves and halflings.Don't mistake backstabbing for ASSASSINATION. Don't mistake Not-Being-Heard for backstabbing.

[Houtienchi]

I've encountered both methods so to speak, but frankly simply going to 1d6 to 2d6 is not enough. In a 1st edition game I play in essentially everything is doubled(depending on level), str bonus(bows of str), bow bonus, arrow bonus, dice.

Frankly the F/T in the game does more damage than pretty much anyone but of course in this game Fighters also have point blank range and do double damage in that range with a bow, so you are looking at x2, x2.
I suggest also looking at first edition books as well as they are now in reprint