I think my brain might have melted reading about bloodlines

[Kahlendrrari]

This has probably been covered a million times, but, do bloodlines, as RAW, count against a character's actual character level? As I read the pages in UA, bloodlines only advance class features that are based off of class levels, such as caster level, and max skill ranks. Some of the threads that I have read make bloodlines out to be kind of like late LA buy off.

If I were to choose the Hellfire Ur-Lock Warlock 4 | Binder 1 | Ur-priest 2| Eldritch Disciple 10 | hellfire warlock 3, with a greater bloodline, would I have?:

warlock "caster" level of 20, with invocations known as 17
Binder level of 1, with effective binding level of 1, or would it be 4?
Ur-priest caster level of 14, spells known of 10th (2 from Ur-priest, 9 caster levels from eldritch disciple, and 3 "effective" caster levels from bloodlines
hellfire warlock hellfire blast damage of +12d6 (since hellfire blast is accrued off of class level, and not by class feature progression)

[Darrin]

Presumably you've made an attempt or two at the Bloodline Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7167)? (Yeah, it makes my head hurt as well.)


This has probably been covered a million times, but, do bloodlines, as RAW, count against a character's actual character level?


I think the consensus is they don't. Think of it as "Level Adjustment Buyoff" in reverse. With LA, you get the abilities up front, and have to pay XP later in order to even things out. With Bloodlines, you pay the XP first, and get the abilities spread out over 20 levels.

The only thing I was fuzzy on was when you pay the XP... do you subtract it from your total, or does the total stay the same and you have to earn that level again? From a bookkeeping standpoint, I think it's easier to subtract the XP and then earn the level again. Otherwise the XP table in the book is FUBAR.



If I were to choose the Hellfire Ur-Lock Warlock 4 | Binder 1 | Ur-priest 2| Eldritch Disciple 10 | hellfire warlock 3, with a greater bloodline, would I have?:

warlock "caster" level of 20, with invocations known as 17
Binder level of 1, with effective binding level of 1, or would it be 4?


I... think binder level would be 4? It's not clear to me if bloodline levels stack with your binder level. RAI is probably... yes?



Ur-priest caster level of 14, spells known of 10th (2 from Ur-priest, 9 caster levels from eldritch disciple, and 3 "effective" caster levels from bloodlines
hellfire warlock hellfire blast damage of +12d6 (since hellfire blast is accrued off of class level, and not by class feature progression)

Uh... yes? I think that sounds right.

[AmberVael]

This has probably been covered a million times, but, do bloodlines, as RAW, count against a character's actual character level? As I read the pages in UA, bloodlines only advance class features that are based off of class levels, such as caster level, and max skill ranks. Some of the threads that I have read make bloodlines out to be kind of like late LA buy off.
Its contested. Some people argue that they do, others argue that they don't.
Personally, I think it makes more sense if they do. Otherwise the mechanics are a little... messy.


If I were to choose the Hellfire Ur-Lock Warlock 4 | Binder 1 | Ur-priest 2| Eldritch Disciple 10 | hellfire warlock 3, with a greater bloodline, would I have?:

warlock "caster" level of 20, with invocations known as 17
Yes.

Binder level of 1, with effective binding level of 1, or would it be 4?
It would be 4.

Ur-priest caster level of 14, spells known of 10th (2 from Ur-priest, 9 caster levels from eldritch disciple, and 3 "effective" caster levels from bloodlines
Yup.

hellfire warlock hellfire blast damage of +12d6 (since hellfire blast is accrued off of class level, and not by class feature progression)
Yes, but some DMs may smack you with a book over it. Best tread carefully.

[Kahlendrrari]

Thanks for the replies. I breezed through the bloodline handbook, and somewhere in there, there was a post referencing a post on another site where someone asked the developer about how they interacted with other levels, and the reply wasn't a straight yes or no, but more brain exploding references, and explanations.

on my question about effective binder levels, I read the "soulbinding" information a few more times and it seems that effective binder level is based off of levels in the binder class and other feats that advance it, so I think I might have found that answer.

[AmberVael]

You may also be interested in Welknair's take on bloodlines. His homebrew bloodlines are pretty cool, and his bloodline guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?208703-3-5e-Bloodline-Guide-What-in-the-Nine-Hells-is-a-Bloodline) is a pretty nice explanation from the opposite take on the "is this actually a level" situation.

[Kahlendrrari]

Bloodline


Level
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Special


1st

+0

+0

+0

+0
"I'm Really a Level!"


2nd

+0

+0

+0

+0
"I'm Really a Level!"


3rd

+0

+0

+0

+0
"I'm Really a Level!"




Skill points at each level: None. (Not even Int. None.)
Class Skills: None
Hit Dice: d0 (Do not add Con to health for this level. This still counts as an HD though.)

Reading through this doesn't clarify much, especialy this part: Hit Dice: d0 (Do not add Con to health for this level. This still counts as an HD though.)

Still not buying into the bloodlines counting as actual levels. The more I read into handbooks, explanations and other info I can find, along with the rules themselves, the more Im being steered away from it. Why does that "d0" count as a Hit Die? Before the blood line you are treated as a character with X amount of HD, after the bloodline you are still treated as a character with the same amount. Is it because of the fact that caster level went up? or max skill ranks went up? Or is it because you "sold back" some xp in order to gain a few bonuses.

If a spell affects a creature with 10 or HD or less, and is cast on a Cleric that has 8 HD plus 3 bloodline "levels", it still affects the cleric, as he only has 8 HD. According to this individual, it wouldn't, because he would effectively have 11 HD, it just happens that 3 of them are d0's, of which there are no other references to that specific dice anywhere that I have read.

For the purpose of PCs, character level is calculated by racial hit die + HD from class levels, bloodlines don't add to either of them. What they do add is increase to some class features advanced by class levels (HD), such as caster level, max skill ranks, and other "class" dependent abilities. You can take feats to up caster level.... (practiced spellcaster), and feats to get max skill ranks +1 (can't think of what it's called right now... though i believe it was in cityscape)

[Bronk]

Bloodline


Level
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Special


1st

+0

+0

+0

+0
"I'm Really a Level!"


2nd

+0

+0

+0

+0
"I'm Really a Level!"


3rd

+0

+0

+0

+0
"I'm Really a Level!"




Skill points at each level: None. (Not even Int. None.)
Class Skills: None
Hit Dice: d0 (Do not add Con to health for this level. This still counts as an HD though.)

Reading through this doesn't clarify much, especialy this part: Hit Dice: d0 (Do not add Con to health for this level. This still counts as an HD though.)

Still not buying into the bloodlines counting as actual levels. The more I read into handbooks, explanations and other info I can find, along with the rules themselves, the more Im being steered away from it. Why does that "d0" count as a Hit Die? Before the blood line you are treated as a character with X amount of HD, after the bloodline you are still treated as a character with the same amount. Is it because of the fact that caster level went up? or max skill ranks went up? Or is it because you "sold back" some xp in order to gain a few bonuses.

If a spell affects a creature with 10 or HD or less, and is cast on a Cleric that has 8 HD plus 3 bloodline "levels", it still affects the cleric, as he only has 8 HD. According to this individual, it wouldn't, because he would effectively have 11 HD, it just happens that 3 of them are d0's, of which there are no other references to that specific dice anywhere that I have read.

For the purpose of PCs, character level is calculated by racial hit die + HD from class levels, bloodlines don't add to either of them. What they do add is increase to some class features advanced by class levels (HD), such as caster level, max skill ranks, and other "class" dependent abilities. You can take feats to up caster level.... (practiced spellcaster), and feats to get max skill ranks +1 (can't think of what it's called right now... though i believe it was in cityscape)

I think you are right to distrust whatever webpage came up with a d0 hit die!

I also think you've pretty much figured out the whole bloodline thing. They are their own type of thing that happens to count towards class level based numerical values. Still, about your last paragraph there... Consider these lines from the bloodline rules.


"A bloodline level grants no increase in base attack bonus or base save bonuses, no hit points or skill points, and no class features. It counts as a normal class level (with no class skills) for the purpose of determining maximum skill ranks. Levels of bloodline never result in XP penalties for multiclass characters.

Include the character's bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels (such as caster level for spellcasting characters, or save DCs for characters with special abilities whose DCs are based on class level). The character doesn't gain any abilities, spells known, or spells per day from the addition of his bloodline levels, though—only the calculations of his level-based abilities are affected.

If a character has levels in two or more classes in addition to his bloodline levels, each class gains the benefit of adding the bloodline levels when calculating abilities."

You don't need to take an additional feat to up your max skill ranks or take a feat to raise your caster level, that's already a feature of the bloodline level, and it even raises the level abilities of all of your classes, for example, if you have two spellcasting classes, they both have higher caster levels.

An additional note that has come up in previous discussions... It's a bit silly, but technically (rules as written, and fluff-wise), there isn't anything (besides your DM allowing it and using this alternate rule set at all) preventing a character from taking more than one bloodline at a time, or even all of them at once. That would make for some crazy family reunions!

[Rijan_Sai]

As far as whether or not bloodlines increase your ECL, these are the only two lines in the description that talk about it:


Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below)...

It counts as a normal class level (with no class skills) for the purpose of determining maximum skill ranks. Levels of bloodline never result in XP penalties for multiclass characters.

So they do not increase "...character level the way a normal class level does..." and count "as a normal class level (with no class skills) for the purpose of determining maximum skill ranks."

That bolded part is the key, as that is the only place where it tells you that they act like class levels, and how.

////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\

As for your sample build, AFB but I think I agree with AmberVael's assessment. One thing to remember is that, while they increase you level calculations (like Caster/Manifestor/Binder/Initiator/etc. Level,) you don't gain any increase in class features. With regards to the Binder in particular, your effective binder level would be 4, but you would only have the binding capabilities of a first level Binder (basically, first level vestiges (or second with...improved binding? The one that increases you EBL by 2 for vestiges), no Supress Sign, etc.)
Which really isn't a problem, because you're taking the level for Naberius...

[AmberVael]

That one line is the entire reason people argue that bloodlines don't increase your ECL. For good reason, admittedly. I mean, when you look at it...

Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below).
Yeah. Seems pretty straightforward.

But I think its a case of absolutely terrible wording, rather than the way people have taken it. I can get why people say that bloodline levels don't increase ECL. But in return, let me point at this- usually this argument is paired with "you just lose XP instead, the XP that you normally would have spent to level up." That seems like a pretty massive stretch to me- indeed, it seems to me the more RAW argument in such a case would be "you must take a level of bloodline before reaching X level. However, since it does not increase my character level nor cost XP, my XP remains the same and thus my character can just immediately level up with an actual character class." Or more succinctly, bloodlines are just flat out free. Where is the idea that they cost XP even coming from? What good argument can be made for that?

I don't think bloodlines are free. I also don't see any good argument that XP is reduced by bloodlines. On the other hand, there is plenty of description as bloodline levels as levels- empty levels to be sure (if they don't count as levels, why even bother clarifying that they don't give BAB, HP, and skill points?), and I think that's the point they were (badly) trying to make. They don't really give you any benefits. But they are levels.

[atemu1234]

I simplified it for my games into a level adjustment thing. You gain a level, but are treated as gaining an LA +1 template, instead of leveling.

[Bronk]

But I think its a case of absolutely terrible wording, rather than the way people have taken it. I can get why people say that bloodline levels don't increase ECL. But in return, let me point at this- usually this argument is paired with "you just lose XP instead, the XP that you normally would have spent to level up." That seems like a pretty massive stretch to me- indeed, it seems to me the more RAW argument in such a case would be "you must take a level of bloodline before reaching X level. However, since it does not increase my character level nor cost XP, my XP remains the same and thus my character can just immediately level up with an actual character class." Or more succinctly, bloodlines are just flat out free. Where is the idea that they cost XP even coming from? What good argument can be made for that?

I don't think bloodlines are free. I also don't see any good argument that XP is reduced by bloodlines. On the other hand, there is plenty of description as bloodline levels as levels- empty levels to be sure (if they don't count as levels, why even bother clarifying that they don't give BAB, HP, and skill points?), and I think that's the point they were (badly) trying to make. They don't really give you any benefits. But they are levels.

Oh yeah, that wording could be way more clear.

I do think you have to pay XP for them though, the XP that you would have used to go up to the next level, since it you have to take it like a class level... but then your actual class level doesn't go up, so you end up paying the same amount for the next class level as you would have before. Also, if you don't take the bloodline level by a certain class level, you get an XP penalty.

I wish it had some update. It would be nice to clarify what was there, and then to have at least a mention whether or not they intended to let you have more than one bloodline... and also if there were a minimum level you had to get to in order to take all three levels instead of a maximum. The way it's worded, you could take all three levels of a major bloodline before you hit level 2!

[AmberVael]

I do think you have to pay XP for them though, the XP that you would have used to go up to the next level, since it you have to take it like a class level... but then your actual class level doesn't go up, so you end up paying the same amount for the next class level as you would have before. Also, if you don't take the bloodline level by a certain class level, you get an XP penalty.
Just because your ECL remains the same doesn't mean your experience is reset though. Nor do bloodlines say they alter your experience total. And taking a level doesn't actually lose you experience- you accumulate experience, you don't spend it (er, at least, not for the purposes of gaining levels). As such, if you take a level that doesn't increase your class level, your experience is never reduced- it remains the same, your level doesn't increase from the bloodline... and then it does increase because hey, I have enough xp to level up, guess I got that bloodline level for free.

[Bronk]

Just because your ECL remains the same doesn't mean your experience is reset though. Nor do bloodlines say they alter your experience total. And taking a level doesn't actually lose you experience- you accumulate experience, you don't spend it (er, at least, not for the purposes of gaining levels). As such, if you take a level that doesn't increase your class level, your experience is never reduced- it remains the same, your level doesn't increase from the bloodline... and then it does increase because hey, I have enough xp to level up, guess I got that bloodline level for free.

Right, but the bar is set higher. You don't lose XP, that's why the bloodline isn't free.

At level X, you check your ECL to see how much more XP you need to hit level X+1. When you get to that amount, you say "this level is a bloodline level". Now you're at that higher amount of XP, and you check your ECL again, see that it's still X, and start working to gain the XP to hit X+1 again.

So, if you're at ECL 1, you need 1000XP to get to level two. If instead you take your first bloodline level, you are still ECL 1, and you now need another 1000XP to get to level two. Your total accumulated XP would be 2000 at that point.

This isn't spelled out in these optional rules, it just follows from having to take a level as normal, but not having it count as a level afterwards.

[AmberVael]

That interpretation makes even less sense than the idea that it reduces your xp. Its not spelled out. Its not hinted at. Its not implied or even logically follows from the rules presented.

Its also not something I've ever heard anyone else argue, unless I'm severely misinterpreting the bloodline handbook.

[Bronk]

That interpretation makes even less sense than the idea that it reduces your xp. Its not spelled out. Its not hinted at. Its not implied or even logically follows from the rules presented.

Its also not something I've ever heard anyone else argue, unless I'm severely misinterpreting the bloodline handbook.

Sure it is. It's a class level... that doesn't count as a class level once you've taken it. You had to use your XP the same way as gaining any other class level, but then poof... all that's left are a few cool abilities. There isn't much more to it.

You're not alone in looking at it that way though. Here's an old thread about it:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?369769-Are-Bloodlines-ever-useful

[AmberVael]

Sure it is. It's a class level... that doesn't count as a class level once you've taken it. You had to use your XP the same way as gaining any other class level, but then poof... all that's left are a few cool abilities. There isn't much more to it.

You're not alone in looking at it that way though. Here's an old thread about it:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?369769-Are-Bloodlines-ever-useful

The point I'm making is that leveling up doesn't use your xp. Your xp isn't reduced to level up, it isn't assigned to a level, or committed to anything once you've gained it. You simply have that much XP. And once you have a certain amount of XP, you level up. Since gaining a level isn't about the difference in XP, only your total amount, your system simply has no basis on the rules. If a bloodline does not consume XP, and yet does not increase character level, it is just flat out free because there will be no gap between gaining your bloodline "level" and your next class level.

[Bronk]

The point I'm making is that leveling up doesn't use your xp. Your xp isn't reduced to level up, it isn't assigned to a level, or committed to anything once you've gained it. You simply have that much XP. And once you have a certain amount of XP, you level up. Since gaining a level isn't about the difference in XP, only your total amount, your system simply has no basis on the rules. If a bloodline does not consume XP, and yet does not increase character level, it is just flat out free because there will be no gap between gaining your bloodline "level" and your next class level.

Basically, your starting mark on the XP number line is moved. That's all. I never said anything about using up XP to level.

[Telonius]

I'm in the "Bloodline level does not give ECL" camp.


Depending on the strength of a character's bloodline, he gains a new bloodline trait every one, two, or four character levels (or effective character levels, for characters with a level adjustment greater than +0). The traits gained are given in each bloodline description.

If Bloodline=ECL, an Aasimar character (or anything else with level adjustment) with a Major Bloodline would get bloodline traits when taking a Bloodline level, but a Human character would not. That doesn't seem like the kind of thing they'd build into it.

[Bronk]

You know, the funny thing is that the 'Unearthed Arcana' book came out in 2004, but Wizards of the Coast were way more specific in how the somewhat similar template classes worked, and that came out a year earlier!

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a

It would have been nice if the printed product had the same level of detail...

[AmberVael]

Basically, your starting mark on the XP number line is moved. That's all. I never said anything about using up XP to level.

I understand that. Perhaps my phrasing was not the most clear.

What I'm saying is that there is no indication that things work that way. Leveling up is about reaching a point on a meter, acquiring a certain total of XP. Leveling up isn't "I must acquire X amount of experience between levels 1 and 2," its "I must have accumulated a total of Y experience to achieve the next level." Therefore, if bloodline levels neither reduce XP, or increase level, what happens is this- you acquire a total of Y experience, and take a bloodline level. Your experience remains the same. Your level remains the same. You check your experience, and see that it is at Y. You have enough experience to gain a level, because your level still has not increased. Therefore, you also gain a normal level.

For your method to work you need to actually change how experience and levels function, which nothing in the bloodline rules actually does. It doesn't move the experience total you need to level up unless it actually DOES count as a level, or unless it explicitly says it moves it.


@Telonius: The problem you point out is irrelevant if a bloodline level is an actual level, because being a level allows it to count in its own right rather than as LA or ECL.

[TheGeckoKing]

So what you're saying is;

I'm a level one Rogue.
I gain enough XP to level up to level two.
I take a Bloodline Level
The bloodline level doesn't affect my Character Level, so my Character Level is still One.
I still have enough XP to increase my Character Level from One to Two, so I gain another level in Rogue.
...right?

[AmberVael]

So what you're saying is;

I'm a level one Rogue.
I gain enough XP to level up to level two.
I take a Bloodline Level
The bloodline level doesn't affect my Character Level, so my Character Level is still One.
I still have enough XP to increase my Character Level from One to Two, so I gain another level in Rogue.
...right?

Pretty much, yes. If you take that one section of bloodlines to mean they don't increase character level, and don't houserule in some other cost for them that's what ends up happening, by RAW.

[TheGeckoKing]

Well, "Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level but they do provide certain benefits (see below)." doesn't really have wiggle-room, if that's any indication.

[Darrin]

So what you're saying is;

I'm a level one Rogue.
I gain enough XP to level up to level two.
I take a Bloodline Level
The bloodline level doesn't affect my Character Level, so my Character Level is still One.
I still have enough XP to increase my Character Level from One to Two, so I gain another level in Rogue.
...right?

That would be the "Bloodline Levels are Free!" method. This would be pointless, as every PC with at least 3 levels could have every major bloodline automatically with no effort.

I believe there are three methods for earning Bloodline Levels:

A) They count towards ECL. Thus, they are selected like any other PrC/Paragon/Template levels. From what I can tell, this may be the closest to what the text in UA intended, but by this method Bloodline levels are so underwhelmingly underpowered I'm not sure why anyone would bother taking them, unless they were deliberately abusing some shaky rules shenanigans, such as Hellfire Warlock or Initiator Level stuff.

B) The do not count towards ECL. You continue to accrue XP, but your "next level" is delayed by a certain amount of XP equal to your current ECL and your next ECL. This involves some nightmarish bookkeeping, as the XP table in the PHB is now nearly useless.

C) They do not count towards ECL. When you level up, you subtract the amount of XP it took to level up to "buy" a Bloodline level. You then have to "earn" that level again. While this method has no real support in the text that this was intended, it's much easier to keep track of the bookkeeping, and the XP table in the PHB still makes sense. I also consider it a more balanced and useful option, as you still get 20 "character" levels with some added benefits, and you're not all that far behind someone who had to use LA Buyoff or spent a lot of XP crafting magic items.

[TheGeckoKing]

A) contradicts the text outright (Counting as class levels), and so doesn't really fit beyond out-and-out homebrew.
C) doesn't really work because the text mentions no loss of XP whatsoever.

I guess B) is a valid interpretation, but it hinges on one thing - is leveling up attached to Class Level or Character Level?
Scratch that, it's Character Level, otherwise ECL wouldn't work. All of you methods contradict the text in big ways, it seems.

[Darrin]

All of you methods contradict the text in big ways, it seems.

The text is confusing and poorly thought out. I'm more concerned about what works from a practical standpoint, in which case I would advocate Option C) as the most "playable".

[TheGeckoKing]

Sounds good. One last question - assuming we go with full RAW (and the free levels that this entails), is there anything (beyond sanity) stopping a player taking more than one type of Bloodline? Or, taking ALL the Bloodlines?

[AmberVael]

Sounds good. One last question - assuming we go with full RAW (and the free levels that this entails), is there anything (beyond sanity) stopping a player taking more than one type of Bloodline? Or, taking ALL the Bloodlines?

Nope.


Anyway, the best reasoning I've heard on the subject is that when they said: "Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below)" what they meant was "bloodline levels don't give you many of the improvements that you normally get by leveling up" but they accidentally gagged on a mouthful of derp while trying to say it. (Out of curiosity though, do you see how you might see that sentence as reading that way? You know, if you squint and turn your head funny?) Some key indicators in the sentence are that they nonetheless refer to bloodline levels as class levels, and say 'normal class levels' as opposed to 'actual class levels' when talking about non-bloodline levels. Those things support the idea that they meant for bloodlines to be levels rather than some kind of weird non-ECL increasing stuff.

In terms of what works best... what I find works best is saying its A), tossing out all the horrible bloodlines in UA, and then using all of Welknair's homebrew bloodlines.
If you want to use the first party bloodlines... um... I'm sorry? :smalltongue:

[Coidzor]

Sounds good. One last question - assuming we go with full RAW (and the free levels that this entails), is there anything (beyond sanity) stopping a player taking more than one type of Bloodline? Or, taking ALL the Bloodlines?

No, but I'd recommend going with houseruled restriction on only being able to, at most, take 1 bloodline level per regular level. If not restricting them to taking one every 2, 3, 4, or 5 regular levels.