Help me decide- Bluff or disguise?

[Kol Korran]

I'm in a bit of a pickle with a coming encounter.
One of the PCs' mentors have had his allegiance questioned a few times. He has since vanished, and is about to reappear, only unknown to the party- he is possessed by a shadow demon (Using a magic jar spell). I want the demon to play the "I've fallen into darkness, you are too late to save me, you fool!" kind of a thing, where the demon seeks to have the student try and kill the mentor.

But which skill will the demon use for this charade? Bluff or disguise? On one hand, he is trying to sell a lie. On another hand he is trying to masquerade as someone else, acting like him. Due to possession mastery he has access to quite a lot of the person's abilities and such.

So, what do you think- bluff or disguise? and would using the person's own body give any kind of bonuses?

This is in PF if that matters, but I don't think it does.

[Troacctid]

I'd have the demon make a disguise check to hide the fact that he is not actually the mentor, with a +10 bonus for assuming the mentor's form (that's the standard bonus for magically-created disguises). A successful opposed perception check (with an appropriate bonus for being familiar with the mentor) would allow the PC to notice that the mentor is behaving out of character; the opposed check should be made passively, with the PC taking 10.

In the actual conversation, when selling the lie, the demon would make a bluff check opposed by the PC's sense motive; I'd give a +2 circumstance bonus to the bluff if the PC fell for the disguise, or a +2 to the sense motive if they spotted it.

[Darrin]

I'd go with Bluff. Disguise doesn't really work here because he's literally in the mentor's body, he doesn't need disguise. Spot checks would only help if the demon were trying to hide some physical feature, such as an injury.

[Troacctid]

I'd go with Bluff. Disguise doesn't really work here because he's literally in the mentor's body, he doesn't need disguise. Spot checks would only help if the demon were trying to hide some physical feature, such as an injury.

Disguise checks also represent your ability to mimic the proper mannerisms and such. A demon with a poor disguise check might jerk his limbs unnaturally as he walks because he's not used to having a human body, for example. As per the disguise rules, though, in order to even get a check, you'd have to either be a. already suspicious and looking for clues or b. familiar with the person he's disguised as. A casual observer would automatically be fooled.

[Vhaidara]

Troacctid got it dead on in his first post. Disguise to get "there's something up here", which then leads to someone getting a bonus on the follow up Bluff check

[Jeff the Green]

Both. Bluff for out and out lies ("I'm your boss!") and Disguise (with a substantial bonus, obviously) for everything else.

[Crake]

It's worth noting that if you instead use the possession ability from fiendish codex, the fiend gets access to the body's thoughts and memories with a bit of delving, which would probably give a substantial bonus on the disguise check to act in character, having the right mannerisms and whatnot.

[Jeff the Green]

It's worth noting that if you instead use the possession ability from fiendish codex, the fiend gets access to the body's thoughts and memories with a bit of delving, which would probably give a substantial bonus on the disguise check to act in character, having the right mannerisms and whatnot.

I kind of doubt it. Do you know about how annoying your laugh is, or the way you mince when you walk, or that you really don't stand up straight? How about the fact that you use "literally" incorrectly more often than not or you still say "rad" with embarrassing frequency?

[Firest Kathon]

I would go with an unopposed sense motive (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/senseMotive.htm) check:


Sense Enchantment
You can tell that someone’s behavior is being influenced by an enchantment effect (by definition, a mind-affecting effect), even if that person isn’t aware of it. The usual DC is 25, but if the target is dominated (see dominate person), the DC is only 15 because of the limited range of the target’s activities.

I think the DC25 check is appropriate here, maybe drop it to 15 if the demon fails at a disguise check.

[Sith_Happens]

It's worth noting that if you instead use the possession ability from fiendish codex, the fiend gets access to the body's thoughts and memories with a bit of delving, which would probably give a substantial bonus on the disguise check to act in character, having the right mannerisms and whatnot.

Problem is, if you're using the possession mechanics from Fiendish Codex then the possessee gets a new save every few minutes to shake off having their actions directly controlled. If they make it then the demon can immediately attempt to reassert said control, but there's a high chance of blowing its cover in the process as the mentor fights back for a round or two.

[The Insanity]

Both. jfghjhsrys

[TheIronGolem]

I kind of doubt it. Do you know about how annoying your laugh is, or the way you mince when you walk, or that you really don't stand up straight? How about the fact that you use "literally" incorrectly more often than not or you still say "rad" with embarrassing frequency?

You might not be (consciously) aware of these things yourself, but we're talking about a situation where your mind is completely available for examination by another party who benefits from an outsider's perspective.

[Jeff the Green]

You might not be (consciously) aware of these things yourself, but we're talking about a situation where your mind is completely available for examination by another party who benefits from an outsider's perspective.

No he doesn't. He's aware of your current thoughts and your memories. That's it. And D&D is pretty consistent in using memory to mean declarative memory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declarative_memory) (which is also the colloquial use).

[Kol Korran]

It's worth noting that if you instead use the possession ability from fiendish codex, the fiend gets access to the body's thoughts and memories with a bit of delving, which would probably give a substantial bonus on the disguise check to act in character, having the right mannerisms and whatnot.


I kind of doubt it. Do you know about how annoying your laugh is, or the way you mince when you walk, or that you really don't stand up straight? How about the fact that you use "literally" incorrectly more often than not or you still say "rad" with embarrassing frequency?

The specific demon in question has a unique mythic quality called "Master of possession" or something of the like, where he can access the person's full abilities (including spell casting), emotions, secrets, memories and such. I agree with Jeff the Green that studying someone isn't like BEING someone, but I do think it helps a LOT.

SO my thought is that if a invisibility is the epitome of not being seen and gives a +20, then using someone's body and having access to his memories and having studied him for some time now should be as close to epitome for disguise. So I think a total +20 for ALL modifiers for disguise.

Bluff will be on it's own though, though if the lie somehow rely on this person being whom he says he is, and they faield the disguise, then the sense motive incurs a -5. (As it is more believable)

Sounds ok? :smallconfused:

[Fallenreality]

This sort of reminds me of what's happening in OotS right now...

I would agree with that bonus, he's basically become the mentor atm. The student should probably get a bonus against the disguise still, especially if they've spent a long time together. Everyone has tiny little ticks that would be very difficult to replicate which someone close to them would probably get. Even if it's just a slight tension in the brow.

[Kol Korran]

Oh, the student gets the +10 bonus for being on an intimate relationship (The mentor was basically his father figure).
The rest of the party gets the +6 for their close knowing of him.

[Fallenreality]

Okay, then it all seems pretty reasonable, have fun and try and get some good roleplay out of it.

[atemu1234]

Both would be useful. Most demons have high charisma, so you can get away with less-than-full ranks if you're strapped.

[Milodiah]

Generally, the way I see it, disguise covers the physical costuming part (putting together the King's Army captain disguise, for example), and the day-to-day behavior in the process of maintaining the disguise (playing the part of a King's Army captain). Bluff in this case is specifically for weaseling out of a situation where your claims to being so-and-so are being called into question. While you're technically "bluffing" every single time you say something in disguise, it's really more along the lines of acting, and (unless they're already suspicious) you wouldn't have to roll the check every time you order a meal or mutter "excuse me" as you maneuver between two pedestrians.

That being said, he is attempting to impersonate a distinct individual, whom the others are pretty intimately familiar with. There will be small slip-ups (i.e. his favorite food is on special at the inn and he orders something completely different anyway). So you should be keen on incorporating such things. And, since I'm a Troper, some (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BluffTheImpostor) relevant (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SpottingTheThread) things (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PullTheThread) to that effect...


In history there are so many examples of such tiny things happening. Egyptian Arabic uses a hard "g" sound while Palestinian Arabic uses a soft "g", so literally two words from a disguised IDF commando unit in the Yom Kippur War started a shootout. American sentries in the Battle of the Bulge used the first line of the Star Spangled Banner as a sign, and anyone who didn't know the next line was obviously not an American. When the Germans caught on, they started using the first line of the third verse, which is never actually used. The proper response is to be confused, so the German infiltrators who heard about it and did their homework ended up getting busted for being too thorough.


Also, if you want to give the players a hint, a common way of detecting spies is to violently shake them awake in the middle of the night while shouting in their native language (Infernal in this case, right?) The moment someone wakes up (especially suddenly) is when their guard is lowest, and most of the time they will respond in kind.