(3.5, 3.P) How to Druid and Archer at the same time?

[Coidzor]

I know Clerics can be pretty great at archery between all of their buffs and Zen Archery and that one of the semi-commonly recommended shticks for bards is to invest into ranged attacks and plink away with IC and/or DFI buffed arrows while buffing the party and laying down the odd spell, but I'm less certain of Druids.

I mean, yes, they are Tier 1, but I've never really run into the idea of Druids using ranged weapon attacks in any depth between Wildshape and Spellcasting and having an animal companion who can make a nice mount or ally to fight alongside in the thick of melee.

Well, OK, I seem to recall that they can go with the Druidic Avenger ACF for rage instead of an Animal Companion and then use either vanilla Rage or one of the variant Rages to buff their archery attacks and they do have spells that increase their strength and dexterity, such as Bite of the Were X, but any further direction on that would be appreciated.

Are there any other ACFs to consider? Any Pathfinder Archetypes that'd address this?

Is Prestige Ranger worth it in this case if allowed? Any other PrCs?

[Grod_The_Giant]

You can slap Zen Archery on a druid just as well as you can on a cleric. Better, perhaps, since you can use your animal companion as a mount or have it run interference (riding dog trips, anyone?) to keep distance between you and your enemies. You can't persist buffs as easily, but you can still do some stuff with Wild Shape-- go dire ape for the strength, or see if your DM will let an eagle wield a footbow (RotW).

Spell-wise, I'd go for a mix of buffs and BFC. Lock your enemies down with things like entangle and kelpstrand, then tear them apart with arrows.

Prestige Ranger is probably worth a dip for the unique spells (assuming non-PHB unique spells are allowed). Things like arrow mind, guided shot, and arrow storm are pretty dang nice, and you'll have the spell slots to abuse them.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I'd go with the Swift Hunter ACF. Wild Shape doesn't synergize well with archery anyway and it gives you one of the prereqs for Prestige Ranger, which is definitely a good idea.
Rapid Shot is something you'll want anyway, so the only thing left to pick up is Endurance which Desert Orc gets as a bonus feat, so you're set there.

Another PrC to consider is Shiba Protector. The feat tax is pretty big (Iron Will, Combat Expertise, Alertness) though you can get two of them for gold. Getting wisdom to hit and damage is pretty big though, and you can combine it with Zen Archery and the Energy Bow for high accuracy with full power shots for up to +30-40 damage per arrow.
That should get you pretty well set for damage, especially if you combine it with Hunter's Mercy (or whatever that ranger spell that guarantees an arrow crit is called).

For animal companion i'd go with something flying. Either a bat or the Dire Eagle. The Dire Eagle would be a nice choice because of it's 10ft reach. Give it Combat Reflexes and Stand Still and it will keep away melee attackers when you use it as a mount, provided they can even get at you in the air.

[eggynack]

Well, you're probably going to want a weapon to start with, as a sling is a bit insufficient for serious pursuit of the style. On the lowest level, that probably means spending a feat for proficiency, but at a moderate level of optimization, it might mean going elf and parlaying that into seeker of the misty isle, and on the highest level, I think it means using the grasslands environmental weapon list (Dragon 331, 87) for pretty much free shortbow proficiency.

Beyond that, I agree with Grod that what you really want to do is use archery as a kill condition once your opponents are already trapped in an endless maze of ridiculous BFC and debuffs. It's the druid way. I don't think there's a massive amount of reason to focus on the style beyond mere capability for that reason.

[animewatcha]

Do you still want to be able to cast spells?? Cause doing 3.5 and pathfinder...including drag mag? I am thinking wildshape monk + zen archer archetype somehow..

[Snowbluff]

Hey, you know what I keep saying about GNB, Abundant Ammunition, and the Saddle Surge spell with a Samsaran? That works for Druid, too. You just can't use Litany of Righteousness.

For 3.5, archery is more items based. Learning the Arrow Split spell would help a lot.

[Coidzor]

Hey, you know what I keep saying about GNB, Abundant Ammunition, and the Saddle Surge spell with a Samsaran? That works for Druid, too. You just can't use Litany of Righteousness.

For 3.5, archery is more items based. Learning the Arrow Split spell would help a lot.

I'm sorry, what GNB stands for is slipping my mind completely. :smallconfused:

This is quite true and a good point.


Do you still want to be able to cast spells?? Cause doing 3.5 and pathfinder...including drag mag? I am thinking wildshape monk + zen archer archetype somehow..

The player definitely wants to be able to cast spells. We're going to use the 3.5 version of Wildshape though. They were thinking some combination of Druid/Ranger, but the DM convinced them to go with one or the other and we're weaker on casting than we are on the ability to put out raw damage.


Well, you're probably going to want a weapon to start with, as a sling is a bit insufficient for serious pursuit of the style. On the lowest level, that probably means spending a feat for proficiency, but at a moderate level of optimization, it might mean going elf and parlaying that into seeker of the misty isle, and on the highest level, I think it means using the grasslands environmental weapon list (Dragon 331, 87) for pretty much free shortbow proficiency.

Beyond that, I agree with Grod that what you really want to do is use archery as a kill condition once your opponents are already trapped in an endless maze of ridiculous BFC and debuffs. It's the druid way. I don't think there's a massive amount of reason to focus on the style beyond mere capability for that reason.

Yeah, I think the first thing is to figure out whether the race the player is going with has racial weapon proficiencies. (I'm sorta Assistant DMing in a game I'm in with a bunch of newbies and we've got a player jumping ship to join us whose last game apparently had a player regularly rolling "rape checks" :smalleek::smallconfused: ) and then go from there to get her something non-sling-based to use.

Thanks for the heads up on the grasslands weapon list, I'll check that out.

Yeah, disabling them and then kilting them while they're out of the game is the way to go if possible. It's quite possible, almost preferable that the player go more BFC, but we'll see. We've got a Crusader whose healing abilities heal twice as much as what's written(me), a Swordsage, and a Barbarian, all with reach weapons as our primary weapons(though we've been in cramped quarters on a ship recently so we've had to use our backup daggers and spiked gauntlets more than we'd like), along with a Warlock who may end up being a Melee Glaivelock, so BFC would be nice to add to the table.


You can slap Zen Archery on a druid just as well as you can on a cleric. Better, perhaps, since you can use your animal companion as a mount or have it run interference (riding dog trips, anyone?) to keep distance between you and your enemies. You can't persist buffs as easily, but you can still do some stuff with Wild Shape-- go dire ape for the strength, or see if your DM will let an eagle wield a footbow (RotW).

Spell-wise, I'd go for a mix of buffs and BFC. Lock your enemies down with things like entangle and kelpstrand, then tear them apart with arrows.

Prestige Ranger is probably worth a dip for the unique spells (assuming non-PHB unique spells are allowed). Things like arrow mind, guided shot, and arrow storm are pretty dang nice, and you'll have the spell slots to abuse them.

True, I'm almost certainly going to suggest Zen Archery. I think this Druid will favor an Animal Companion with either a fly speed or a climb speed, at least when we're on ships, which stands a fair chance of being a semi-regular occurence due to this being set in D&D in Space with some elements of Spelljammer, though more convergent evolution than divergent evolution. Interesting idea with the footbow, too.

Always good, yeah. :smallsmile: Any BFC spells in particular that synergize with a party with a fair number of Reach melee fighters to your knowledge?

Thought so. Will check on that then, definitely. :smallsmile:


I'd go with the Swift Hunter ACF. Wild Shape doesn't synergize well with archery anyway and it gives you one of the prereqs for Prestige Ranger, which is definitely a good idea.
Rapid Shot is something you'll want anyway, so the only thing left to pick up is Endurance which Desert Orc gets as a bonus feat, so you're set there.

Yeah, I thought there was one like Swift Hunter which gave the ranged combat style too, though. x.x


Another PrC to consider is Shiba Protector. The feat tax is pretty big (Iron Will, Combat Expertise, Alertness) though you can get two of them for gold. Getting wisdom to hit and damage is pretty big though, and you can combine it with Zen Archery and the Energy Bow for high accuracy with full power shots for up to +30-40 damage per arrow.
That should get you pretty well set for damage, especially if you combine it with Hunter's Mercy (or whatever that ranger spell that guarantees an arrow crit is called).

I'm not sure whether that'll be an accessible PrC, unless I'm mixing up a Complete Warrior PrC with something from Oriental Adventures, but maybe. Thank you for the heads up. And also reminding me about Power Shot. Might be able to convince the DM to put in Power Shot as a feat or an additional use for Power Attack, so that it's not just the Energy Bow that can do it, since I'm not confident the DM would allow the Energy Bow. Would probably allow aspects of the Energy Bow to be deconstructed and made into magical weapon properties though.


For animal companion i'd go with something flying. Either a bat or the Dire Eagle. The Dire Eagle would be a nice choice because of it's 10ft reach. Give it Combat Reflexes and Stand Still and it will keep away melee attackers when you use it as a mount, provided they can even get at you in the air.

Flying does seem to be the way to go with the way the game is set up and the adventure we're on where she'd be introduced next session, though starting at level 1 the options aren't so great for flying and useful, IIRC. Granted, there's a fair chance she'll be starting without a (living) Animal Companion given that we're on an enemy prison transport after boarding it after it seemingly went dead in space.

[AmberVael]

If you're going Zen Archery, definitely Owl's Insight your way to victory. Massive bonuses to everything you care about? Yes please.

[Snowbluff]

I'm sorry, what GNB stands for is slipping my mind completely. :smallconfused:
Greater Named Bullet. x2 CL to damage and touch attacks for 1 piece of ammunition. Abundant Ammunition duplicates it for a whole quiver.


This is quite true and a good point.


Archers should be like Batman with a tool belt full of items to improve effectiveness. I actually had someone say archers shouldn't have access to arrows made with different metals to avoid DR. I couldn't believe what I was seeing.

[Dr.Bakuga]

(Greater) Named Bullet (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/n/named-bullet) and Abundant Ammunition (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/abundant-ammunition) don't have this synergy, unfortunately.


When cast on a container such as a quiver or a pouch that contains nonmagical ammunition or shuriken (including masterwork ammunition or shuriken), at the start of each round this spell replaces any ammunition taken from the container the round before. The ammunition taken from the container the round before vanishes. If, after casting this spell, you cast a spell that enhances projectiles, such as align weapon or greater magic weapon, on the same container, all projectiles this spell conjures are affected by that spell.


Range touch
Target one piece of ammunition or one thrown weapon

Compare to:
Greater Magic Weapon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/magic-weapon)

Range touch
Target one weapon or 50 projectiles (all of which must be together at the time of casting)

Alternatively, you can affect as many as 50 arrows, bolts, or bullets. The projectiles must be of the same kind, and they have to be together (in the same quiver or other container). Projectiles, but not thrown weapons, lose their transmutation after they are used. Treat shuriken as projectiles, rather than as thrown weapons, for the purpose of this spell

Align Weapon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/align-weapon)

Range touch
Target weapon touched or 50 projectiles (all of which must be together at the time of casting)

Flame Arrow (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/flame-arrow)

Target fifty projectiles, all of which must be together at the time of casting

[Snowbluff]

No, it still works, I just misworded it. The copied arrows will still be subject to the spell.

[WeaselGuy]

So, I typically get pretty bored at work, and when I see an idea like this pop up, I immediately open my excel spreadsheet and start creating a character. Unfortunately, I'm AFB at work, so most of my resources I have to Google.
Here's my problem... Earlier it was mentioned that, of the three, Iron Will, Combat Expertise and Alertness, two are available for gold. I know Iron Will is from Otyugh Hole, for 3,000 gp. Which of the other two is available from where and for how much? I think it's Alertness, but I could be mistaken

Second to all of this, is what should I do for the rest of the build that I'm making based on this concept? I have Human Druid (Swift & Deadly Hunter ACF) 6/Prestige Ranger 3/Shiba Protector 1 so far, with:

1 - Point Blank Shot, Endurance
3 - Zen Archery
Iron Will from Otyugh Hole at this point
6 - Rapid Shot
Alertness (or Combat Expertise) whichever of the 2 can be acquired from a magical location
8 - Multishot from Prestige Ranger Bonus Feat
9 - Combat Expertise (or Alertness, depending on which of the 2 can be acquired from a magical location)

Based on that, and with a loss of 3 casting levels already (since the OP wants to keep it mostly full casting, 17 levels of druid or druid progressed casting gives us a 9th level spell), what would be a good full casting PrC, or should it just go straight Druid?

[Jeff the Green]

(Greater) Named Bullet (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/n/named-bullet) and Abundant Ammunition (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/abundant-ammunition) don't have this synergy, unfortunately.





Compare to:
Greater Magic Weapon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/magic-weapon)


Align Weapon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/align-weapon)


Flame Arrow (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/flame-arrow)

It seems like the bigger problem is this:

Once the target is used to attack the selected creature, successfully or not, this spell is discharged.

[Snowbluff]

It seems like the bigger problem is this:

The target isn't being used to attack, a duplicate is.

[animewatcha]

Greater named bullet + arrowsplit + splitting enchantment + clustered shot/pummeling style + woodland archery..

[Coidzor]

So, I typically get pretty bored at work, and when I see an idea like this pop up, I immediately open my excel spreadsheet and start creating a character. Unfortunately, I'm AFB at work, so most of my resources I have to Google.
Here's my problem... Earlier it was mentioned that, of the three, Iron Will, Combat Expertise and Alertness, two are available for gold. I know Iron Will is from Otyugh Hole, for 3,000 gp. Which of the other two is available from where and for how much? I think it's Alertness, but I could be mistaken

Second to all of this, is what should I do for the rest of the build that I'm making based on this concept? I have Human Druid (Swift & Deadly Hunter ACF) 6/Prestige Ranger 3/Shiba Protector 1 so far, with:

1 - Point Blank Shot, Endurance
3 - Zen Archery
Iron Will from Otyugh Hole at this point
6 - Rapid Shot
Alertness (or Combat Expertise) whichever of the 2 can be acquired from a magical location
8 - Multishot from Prestige Ranger Bonus Feat
9 - Combat Expertise (or Alertness, depending on which of the 2 can be acquired from a magical location)

Based on that, and with a loss of 3 casting levels already (since the OP wants to keep it mostly full casting, 17 levels of druid or druid progressed casting gives us a 9th level spell), what would be a good full casting PrC, or should it just go straight Druid?

Sounds like a potential plan to run by the player, yeah. Thank you. :smallsmile:

Only sources of Alertness I can think of offhand are the Ioun Stone and from having a Familiar or Urban Companion. So Urban Companion would be an option as long as it stuck to the Druid-Archer. That'd limit them to a handful of Small-sized Urban Companions for anything that could make attacks without entering opponents squares which would make them lose Alertness or Tiny or smaller sized companions which would be less useful aside from spot checks and maybe some potential share spells shenaniganery but less than what a Wizard's Familiar could get up to.

Druid is one of those classes where it's a tough sell to more than dip outside of it, though I think wildshape may be less of a priority so a 3/4-to-full-BAB, 10/10 or 9/10 casting PrC that gave something relevant might be a fit. Though unless they go Urban Companion it'd almost certainly need to progress Animal Companion, I think.

[WeaselGuy]

Sounds like a potential plan to run by the player, yeah. Thank you. :smallsmile:

Only sources of Alertness I can think of offhand are the Ioun Stone and from having a Familiar or Urban Companion. So Urban Companion would be an option as long as it stuck to the Druid-Archer. That'd limit them to a handful of Small-sized Urban Companions for anything that could make attacks without entering opponents squares which would make them lose Alertness or Tiny or smaller sized companions which would be less useful aside from spot checks and maybe some potential share spells shenaniganery but less than what a Wizard's Familiar could get up to.

Druid is one of those classes where it's a tough sell to more than dip outside of it, though I think wildshape may be less of a priority so a 3/4-to-full-BAB, 10/10 or 9/10 casting PrC that gave something relevant might be a fit. Though unless they go Urban Companion it'd almost certainly need to progress Animal Companion, I think.

Urban Companion ACF works for this I think... the type of character I build isn't really that dependent on their Animal companion... I would presume Prestige Ranger just progresses the existing Urban Companion?


edit: Actually, I don't even need Zen Archery for this build, since Shiba Protector's No Though class feature replaces it and cranks it up to 11...

[Dr.Bakuga]

Greater Named Bullet has a target of *one* weapon or piece of ammunition.


Abundant Ammunition specifies, if a spell is cast on a CONTAINER(...i.e. *not* a weapon or piece of ammunition), then this spell affects all duplicated projectiles.


Greater Named bullet CANNOT be cast on a container.



Unless you're treating the container as single improvised weapon - however, even so, the container itself will not be duplicated by Abundant ammunition, so you still don't get free greater named bullets.

[Jeff the Green]

The target isn't being used to attack, a duplicate is.

But the dupicate isn't made until the target is fired:

at the start of each round this spell replaces any ammunition taken from the container the round before

[Snowbluff]

But the dupicate isn't made until the target is fired:

Well, you just answered your own query. The first one is a real one. The others are duplicated.

[Jeff the Green]

Well, you just answered your own query. The first one is a real one. The others are duplicated.

:smallconfused: Yes, that's the point. You have to fire the original first, and when you fire the original named bullet ends.

[Dgrin]

Heh, if everything is allowed... I have to suggest something weird simply because I can. :smallamused:

Let's see... You will need the following things:


Druidic Avenger ACF for rage
Natural Spell cause you're still druid, after all
Ranged Pin to be able to grapple at range
Mouthpick swordbow to be able to shoot while wildshaped
8 levels of Black Blood Cultist


Now you may shoot to grapple your foe. When you make a successful grapple check, you deal the damage of all your natural weapons. Now you have to find a way to acquire Improved Grab if that works with the swordbow and you're golden

That's only an rough sketch but you get the idea. It has one big downside though - not really feeling druidish (and definitely not archerish)

EDIT: Scorpion's Grasp may work instead of Improved Grab. It is obviously weaker but it's just a feat so it's easy to acquire it

[Snowbluff]

:smallconfused: Yes, that's the point. You have to fire the original first, and when you fire the original named bullet ends.
But on the other hand, the spell didn't end before the arrow was fired. The arrow had the spell when it was drawn, so the duplicate would have the spell.

[WhamBamSam]

The Fangshields Druid substitution levels can give you hands with which to wield a bow while in Wild Shape. You might not actually even need Zen Archery until high levels, since you can probably get your Dex higher with the right form unless you're an Anthropomorphic Bat or something.

[Ssalarn]

Question: How to Druid and Archer at the same time?

Answer: The Hunter from ACG

[Coidzor]

Question: How to Druid and Archer at the same time?

Answer: The Hunter from ACG

...Weird that they have an incentive to kill their animal companion to gain a bonus from it but not gain one for dismissing it without killing it. :smallconfused:

I'll check it out further, though, thank you.

[Ssalarn]

...Weird that they have an incentive to kill their animal companion to gain a bonus from it but not gain one for dismissing it without killing it. :smallconfused:

I'll check it out further, though, thank you.

I think the idea was that if you don't want a pet, you probably shouldn't play a Hunter :P

Here's an example build I threw together a while back. (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rh77?Hunter-Builds#18)

It's not super optimized, but it's effective at doing what it's supposed to with room for customization.

[Snowbluff]

It kind of reminds me of the assassin from Dragon's Dogma, which had special perks for traveling without pawns.

[Dr.Bakuga]

But on the other hand, the spell didn't end before the arrow was fired. The arrow had the spell when it was drawn, so the duplicate would have the spell.

This doesn't adress the issue that a quiver or ammo pouch or other *container* of ammunition is not a valid target for (Greater)Named Bullet unless you treat said quiver as improvised ranged weapon.


Abundant Ammunition and Greater Named bullet do not interact with each other in the way you suppose they do, according to RAW.

Abundant ammo only produces enchanted duplicates if the quiver/ammo pouch/container of ammunition is targeted by a spell that enchants projectiles, a projectile is taken from said quiver/ammo pouch/container, and fired.

Greater Named Bullet has a target line of one weapon or one piece of ammunition. Either you cast Abundant Ammunition on a Quiver and Enchant the quiver with Greater Named bullet - fine, all arrows/bolts/projectiles in the quiver are duplicated, as per Abundant ammunition, and if you happen to throw the Quiver via Throw Anything or something similar, it benefits from Greater Named Bullet.

Or you cast Abundant Ammunition on a quiver and cast Greater Named bullet on a single arrow inside that quiver.

As you have enchanted a single arrow, and not the container affected by Abundant ammunition, Abundant ammunition will not provide any enchanted duplicates.


Any other interpretation is a misreading of the target line in Greater Named Bullet and/or Abundant ammunition.

[Snowbluff]

It's a copy. Nothing supports that it wouldn't be identical in every way. The quiver is copying the single arrow that happens to be subject to the spell. It's not using the second part at all, just the first part.

[animewatcha]

Since this is 3.5 and Pathfinder at once.. Arrowsplit + splitting bow enhancement on the Greater Named Bullet Arrow. There. Done. Bunch of Greater Named Bullet arrows.

[Coidzor]

Since this is 3.5 and Pathfinder at once.. Arrowsplit + splitting bow enhancement on the Greater Named Bullet Arrow. There. Done. Bunch of Greater Named Bullet arrows.

Hooray for rules interactions! :smallbiggrin: