Hole of Hiding: What is a Person?

[Ruethgar]

The Hole of Hiding from the Stronghold Builder's guide is obviously intended to be a permanent Rope Trick. However it has a few key differences, one it is part of the stronghold and can thus move with it(if you pay for it to be moveable), but the other key alteration is the restriction of the number of people allowed inside instead of the number of creatures. As people is not a defined D&D term we must fall to RL in which people has a plethora of definitions, the most common being a group of humans. It would be reasonable to extend this to humanoids and apes (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/12/21/us-argentina-orangutan-idUSKBN0JZ0Q620141221), but what about all of the other creatures? Is a demon really a person? What about a slime, plant or a construct? You can also put as much non-creature matter in there as you want as only the rope counts against the limit, but that is a function of both Rope Trick and the Hole of Hiding.

[Renen]

I am pretty sure that person should be read as "being" in this case. Thus extending to things like demons, oozes, and constructs.

[Ruethgar]

Being can be defined in far more ways and is more restrictive than the base spell's creature limitation. For example, in a normal rope trick you could cast Mass Unseen Servant for let's say 10 servants. They are forces with aspects of creatures but not creatures themselves, however they could easily be considered beings and thus have a limit on the number allowed inside. And how do you define a being when remote access gets involved such as astral projection, a deity's remote viewing and speaking, or even illusionary creatures?

[Renen]

Unseen servant isnt a statted thing. Its a magical force that has ability to understand commands.

[(Un)Inspired]

Unseen servant isnt a statted thing. Its a magical force that has ability to understand commands.

Ok then. What is your definition of being and why?

[LOTRfan]

Hold Person and other Person spells seem to indicate that 'people' refer only to humanoids. Which is odd, but okay.

If it's supposed to be a permanent rope trick, I'd chalk it up to ill thought out writing and assume it was meant to mean "creatures" instead.

[Renen]

I dont have an all encompassing way to describe being. Im not THAT smart. If you wanna do it "stupid easy", then anything with stats is a being. Unseen servant isnt statted. Humans are statted, mindless golems are statted, bears are statted, heck ghosts are statted.
Theres no RAW that says: Heres what a being is. So we can argue till we are blue in the face, or we can just tell the OP to use logic, and analyze on case by case basis. Unless he is the one trying to break the game, in which case it doesnt matter what we say, it only matters how high OP's Cha check is, to diplomancy his DM

[(Un)Inspired]

I dont have an all encompassing way to describe being. Im not THAT smart. If you wanna do it "stupid easy", then anything with stats is a being. Unseen servant isnt statted. Humans are statted, mindless golems are statted, bears are statted, heck ghosts are statted.
Theres no RAW that says: Heres what a being is. So we can argue till we are blue in the face, or we can just tell the OP to use logic, and analyze on case by case basis. Unless he is the one trying to break the game, in which case it doesnt matter what we say, it only matters how high OP's Cha check is, to diplomancy his DM

So by your reasoning would a phantom steed count as a person or not? It has stats. What are the moral implications of everything with stats being a person?

[Renen]

Since we are being picky about this... I shall not answer until you define "moral implications".

I'd say phantom steed IS a being. I'd guess the spell is just made to sustain only a certain amount of "lifeforces". Thus size doesnt matter, only amounf of things does. And please... by lifeforce i mean thigns that "make you tick" So yes... undead have them, and automatons have them.

[(Un)Inspired]

Since we are being picky about this... I shall not answer until you define "moral implications".

I'd say phantom steed IS a being. I'd guess the spell is just made to sustain only a certain amount of "lifeforces". Thus size doesnt matter, only amounf of things does. And please... by lifeforce i mean thigns that "make you tick" So yes... undead have them, and automatons have them.

I thought the SRD spoke of respecting the dignity of beings under the "good" entry but it specifies sentient beings. Interesting, I wonder how they define sentient?

Would you say that an ooze has a life force? What about a potted houseplant? That senna like a being. What about a case of flowers? Surely there is some "life force" in the clipped flowers but it might be hard to call them a being.

[Ruethgar]

Unseen Servants aren't fully stated out as creatures but they do have stats for effective strength and damage before dispersion, objects also have stats for health and hardness, would those be beings?

I am inclined to go with the derivative definition LOTRfan presented from the Person spells making it only count against humanoids. That could even be a backstory for why Earth no longer has dragons, fey etc, they all left to their 3000g demi-planes(one nested in the other of course so AMF/Dead Magic just seals it off instead of suppressing it) and without magical creatures the plane slowly became a dead magic zone and the humans took over.

[atemu1234]

I'd say all beings- living, undead, all types and subtypes.

[Radar]

I thought the SRD spoke of respecting the dignity of beings under the "good" entry but it specifies sentient beings. Interesting, I wonder how they define sentient?

Would you say that an ooze has a life force? What about a potted houseplant? That senna like a being. What about a case of flowers? Surely there is some "life force" in the clipped flowers but it might be hard to call them a being.
I'd wager a guess that having mental stats at all would be a good way to describe sentient beings in D&D 3.5. Having at least a 3 in all of them granted self-consciousness AFAIK.

[herrhauptmann]

I'd say anything that has stats counts to the limit.

Magitech toy owned by kid? No count.
Kid? Count.
Summoned/bound angel? Count.
Orc? Count.
Giant? Count. May count for two.
Golem? Count.
Undead? Count.
Dead body? No count.
Potted plant? No count.
Awakened potted plant? Count.

Yes I'm aware there are hardnesd/hp stats to break the pot.

[Ruethgar]

What about temporally animated objects? With Animate Objects this may be more cut and dry, but what about Animate Water/Wood/Fire or the Control Object power? You are magically or telekinetically manipulating an object to act like a creature, but does that make it a being?

[(Un)Inspired]

Unseen Servants aren't fully stated out as creatures but they do have stats for effective strength and damage before dispersion, objects also have stats for health and hardness, would those be beings?

I am inclined to go with the derivative definition LOTRfan presented from the Person spells making it only count against humanoids. That could even be a backstory for why Earth no longer has dragons, fey etc, they all left to their 3000g demi-planes(one nested in the other of course so AMF/Dead Magic just seals it off instead of suppressing it) and without magical creatures the plane slowly became a dead magic zone and the humans took over.
This is such a cool thread. I'm really enjoying where this discussion is going.


I'd wager a guess that having mental stats at all would be a good way to describe sentient beings in D&D 3.5. Having at least a 3 in all of them granted self-consciousness AFAIK.
Can you explain why having all the mental stats would be enough to qualify one as sentient? I'm not sure I follow.


I'd say anything that has stats counts to the limit.

Magitech toy owned by kid? No count.
Kid? Count.
Summoned/bound angel? Count.
Orc? Count.
Giant? Count. May count for two.
Golem? Count.
Undead? Count.
Dead body? No count.
Potted plant? No count.
Awakened potted plant? Count.

Yes I'm aware there are hardnesd/hp stats to break the pot.

So a plant that isn't stated up as a Creature isn't a being? Plants seem to be beings; don't they? What about an infant? As far as I know, the don't have stats in DnD but surely they are beings... Right?

[Renen]

I find this tread stupid. The OP is asking for things that have no clear ruling for it, and people try to answer it, only to be bombarded with more questions because their purposefully vague answer wasnt specific enough. Please stop trying to disassemble arguments of the only few people who tried to answer OP's question. Like I did. But now I am starting to regret trying to help here, because it seems that nothing I say is good enough.



With Animate Objects this may be more cut and dry, but what about Animate Water/Wood/Fire or the Control Object power? You are magically or telekinetically manipulating an object to act like a creature, but does that make it a being?

No its not a being. No more than potting a sock puppet on your hand and moving its mouth make IT a being.

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090702063406/oots/images/2/2b/Banjo.png

[(Un)Inspired]

I find this tread stupid. The OP is asking for things that have no clear ruling for it, and people try to answer it, only to be bombarded with more questions because their purposefully vague answer wasnt specific enough. Please stop trying to disassemble arguments of the only few people who tried to answer OP's question. Like I did. But now I am starting to regret trying to help here, because it seems that nothing I say is good enough.


Is your request directed at me? I'm sorry you're not enjoying the thread but if there are things I don't understand I'm going to ask questions.

[Renen]

Answer to any question: "Person" isnt clearly defined in RAW. Opinions will differ. Thus if the OP is asking this for the sake of a discussion, the discussion wont go anywhere. If the OP is trying to "get" it here, and then try exploit it in game, then the DM will likely shut it down, as the DM will probably use a logical approach on case-by-case basis. So if the OP goes in with a potted plant, a golem, a ghost, and a unseen servant, god knows which ones the DM will count as persons.

[(Un)Inspired]

I think the term person is too nebulous to let the Hole of Hiding function in a cohesive fashion. I would drop the person limit and add a mass limit.

[Ruethgar]

It is true that "Person" is not clearly defined by RAW, but I was seeking the nearest definition in the rules which is why I expressed my inclination to use the Person spells to define what a person is since it appears to be the nearest ruling. The further discussion and queries into other definitions was, by me at least, to help define other potential methods of dealing with this issue so in case someone else comes across this problem they could have multiple working opinions and options already presented to use as guidelines or actual rules.

I think LOTRfan presented the best two options, the sanest being to just use the Rope Trick spell text instead, or use the Charm Person derived definition to put a limit on humanoids.


No its not a being. No more than potting a sock puppet on your hand and moving its mouth make IT a being.

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090702063406/oots/images/2/2b/Banjo.png

Your example is flawed considering that particular puppet does actually have some power as what amounts to a very minor god.

[Renen]

The picture was more for the joke. I thought of adding it after i wrote about the puppet.

[Ruethgar]

Fun with the Person Definition!

This world is made within a nested Hole of Hiding, using the Person spells to define what counts as people, with a portal to the material plane. The portal is a circular ring that flies seemingly of its own accord at a speed of 85ft and can plane shift once per week. Upon entering the portal, there is an ancient stone gate covered in twisted bamboo, beyond which lies a small village. The ground is composed almost entirely of rotting plants with some gravel forming road. Bamboo rises on either side in thick, near impenetrable groves. The oxygen rich air is difficult to breathe but bearable. A silvery blue sun seems to swirl more like a whirlwind than flame and follows you lighting about 120ft radius with bright light and a further 120ft with shadowy illumination. If there are multiple people in the world, it tries to stay equidistant from them. The buildings of the town are odd in their composition, they appear to be made of grass, mostly bamboo, woven around small stones to make walls. A sizable church stands in the middle of town. Next to it is a large, fancy library and study that gives +4 Knowledge Planes, Arcana, Nature, and Religion. There are eight small but fancy homes arching out in a semicircle to the right of the church. A sizable dining hall and kitchen stands across from the homes to the left of the library, with a fancy bath house next to it. Up on a small cliff to the left there is also a basic magical laboratory overlooking the village. Just beyond the village is wilderness. There are very few trees compared to the material plane, but it does support an oaken grove of about 150 trees behind and to the left of the village. The bamboo forest continues to the right of the town, gate and portal. To the left are increasingly daunting shear cliffs. Beyond the cliffs and behind the portal is a seemingly endless darkness that you cannot travel more than a few feat into no matter how long you walk. Directly behind the village is a massive field of grass that meats with a lake. There is a stream coming off of the lake that disappears into the bamboo forest as it fades into the darkness, and to the left, behind the oak grove and beside the fields is a marshland that reaches out into the darkness. Behind the lake is a large glacier plateau with trees made of ice and a constant stream coming from the darkness making a waterfall down to the lake. To the right of the glacier, more cliffs ascend into darkness. To the left there are very small mountains or more accurately very rocky hills that extend back for some time before the darkness takes hold and follow the stream to the bamboo forest. There are a myriad of strange designs made from the plants and from the glacier almost as if they were once moving, living things that were frozen in time. The entire place is eerily quiet with no insects or animals, just the wind, the stream and your own breath.

These outlines are simplified for ease of communication but are RAW legal. The world was created by Tiny Elementals with thematically appropriate and useful SLAs for world building. Their Leader is a Living Prestidigitation and is responsible for the Hole of Hiding creation, most of the cliffs, the Feather Token:Trees, and the sun object which is actually not moving on its own but being carried by an air elemental. His draconic Jaunter cohort is responsible for the portal creation, provided the ability to plane shift, and oversees the world in his leader's stead, able to quickly summon him if needed.

Antimagic is a problem here, these are just some homebrew rules for this purpose. Though the Hole of Hiding is nested in a suppressed Hole of Hiding and thus cannot be targeted as a whole, any dispelling effect within the hole can cause some serious damage by sending the spell and everything it hit into non-existence until the original hole is no longer suppressed. In the case of the area forms of dispell this doesn't leave a crater, but rather pinches the world to fill the gap causing major distortions to the terrain, all large or greater unattended objects within 30ft of where the area antimagic effect was take 4d6 damage. Disjunction has a 1% chance per caster level to hit the entire hole sending everything within it to non-existence. Targeted dispells deal 1d4/2 caster levels, greater 1d4/caster level assuming they hit. Antimagic fields simply act as area dispells without a save, consuming a portion of the world and sending it to nothingness. Unless otherwise occupied, the jaunter is attending the object much of the time at it's true entrance somewhere in the darkness giving it a bit more of a fighting chance.

This place can support eight people comfortably with Unseen Servants, Create Food and Water traps and Prestidigitation Traps. Causing destruction to the world is a quick way to summon it's master, but using its facilities is not discouraged. Brining in animals would also be welcomed and the jaunter will plane shift the portal to where you want if you are going through the trouble of gathering a menagerie to form a stable ecosystem. He is especially fond of reptiles, birds, dinosaurs and to a lesser extend amphibians and fish. He doesn't dislike mammals, but may be less inclined to help their cultivation. Similarly, if you are gathering other types of plants he will plane shift you to the general areas you request when he can. If the owner returns, however, all bets are off.

[Chronos]

I believe the rules somewhere define "sentient" as having an Int score, and "sapient" as having an Int of at least 3. So most oozes and vermin, some undead, etc., are not sentient, and animals and things of comparable intelligence are sentient but not sapient.