Hypothetical: Who would you assault?

[tadkins]

Came up with what I think would be a cool encounter to use against an evil group if I ever got around to DMing one day.

It involves a powerful fount of magical energy high up in a mountain. It is guarded by an organization of goodly folk who seek to protect it, believing that it is the source of all power and life in the world. Unidentifiable as either a natural, arcane or divine source, the mountain is protected and inhabited by a joint effort of all three sects. The leader of this union is himself a powerful Arcane Hierophant.

An evil organization or empire may very well hire a team of adventurers to assassinate the Hierophant and claim and/or corrupt the power for themselves. To reach him at the top of the mountain, the group may take one of three paths.

1. The forested hills, inhabited by the druids and rangers of the order, and filled with all sorts of natural and fey themed obstacles. The leader of this path would be a high level druid.

2. The residential area, where the various citizenry and tradesmen for the order. It is operated by various clerics of knowledge and magic deities, sent here to assist the druids and wizards in the study of the fount. In addition, paladins and outsider agents of the divine guard the residential area. Its final boss would be a high level archivist.

3. A magic academy, protected by wizards, sorcerers, duskblades, as well as the clever traps and obstacles that the Arcane is known to muster. It is led by, as you might guess, a high level wizard.

What do you guys think of this as an encounter? If given the choice, which path would you guys assault?

[Vhaidara]

My first instinct was anything but 3, and if we have to murder our way through, that stands. However...

1. Get a stealth character. Hide, Move Silently, Hide in Plain Sight, Darkstalker, Mind Blank, all magical gear hidden by magic aura or the equivalent, Search/Disable Device to deal with traps, etc.
2. Get them a Ring Gate
3. Have them sneak through the academy, since Wizards, Sorcerers, and Duskblades are all going to be dumping Wis, and none of them have Spot or Listen in class.
4. When they are on the other side, deploy the Ring Gates, the party walks through.

[AmberVael]

2. The residential area, where the various citizenry and tradesmen for the order. It is operated by various clerics of knowledge and magic deities, sent here to assist the druids and wizards in the study of the fount. In addition, paladins and outsider agents of the divine guard the residential area. Its final boss would be a high level archivist.

This one, absolutely. All three situations have the good factions on their home turf, but this particular home turf has one big drawback- its filled with citizens. In this environment you can far more easily sneak about among the plentiful population and their homes, you probably won't have to deal with as many traps (else those residents would have to say something about this faction being good), your enemies will have to worry about collateral damage, while you also have a ready supply of hostages and bargaining chips.

Plus, I'd rather fight a bunch of sages than spellcasting bears and curse spewing wizards. I mean, granted clerics and paladins can be pretty terrifying too, but I think in terms of combat this group sounds like the least of three evils.

[Seruvius]

Personally I'd second AmberVael and go for the town. The fact that the other 2 are a) nature atuned nasties in a natural setting with probable tame monsters on top of their own nastyness and b) powerful spellcasters with traps I will go for the one with the meatshields and highest possibility to sneak past. With an evil party the fact that there are citizens they can use for sacrifice/holding hostage/improvised fleshy tower shield swings it.

[Telonius]

None of the above; or rather, all three. It would be absolutely delicious for the three of them to wipe each other out, then walk over the wreckage to get the artifact.

[Der_DWSage]

I'm of a similar mind to Telonius-and I would actually start with the mage academy rather than the others, coordinating with the party so that a character with high bluff does most of the speaking. One thing about all of those arcane classes is that none of them have Sense Motive as a skill, with the one possible exception being the Beguiler. If the party comes through dressed as janitors saying that they need to fix up the living conditions of the font of power, they'd even get shown the way to it.

However, if fighting is a required or preferred course of action, then let's take the town. While CoDzilla is a thing, I'd much rather face civilians and Paladins than Mages with prepared traps.

[Mystral]

Came up with what I think would be a cool encounter to use against an evil group if I ever got around to DMing one day.

It involves a powerful fount of magical energy high up in a mountain. It is guarded by an organization of goodly folk who seek to protect it, believing that it is the source of all power and life in the world. Unidentifiable as either a natural, arcane or divine source, the mountain is protected and inhabited by a joint effort of all three sects. The leader of this union is himself a powerful Arcane Hierophant.

An evil organization or empire may very well hire a team of adventurers to assassinate the Hierophant and claim and/or corrupt the power for themselves. To reach him at the top of the mountain, the group may take one of three paths.

1. The forested hills, inhabited by the druids and rangers of the order, and filled with all sorts of natural and fey themed obstacles. The leader of this path would be a high level druid.

2. The residential area, where the various citizenry and tradesmen for the order. It is operated by various clerics of knowledge and magic deities, sent here to assist the druids and wizards in the study of the fount. In addition, paladins and outsider agents of the divine guard the residential area. Its final boss would be a high level archivist.

3. A magic academy, protected by wizards, sorcerers, duskblades, as well as the clever traps and obstacles that the Arcane is known to muster. It is led by, as you might guess, a high level wizard.

What do you guys think of this as an encounter? If given the choice, which path would you guys assault?

"Greater Teleport"

[Sudokori]

"Greater Teleport"

Correct!
But personally I would never play evil characters because it just seems wrong to me both in game and out to purposefully commit acts of evil for personal gain. Also I was once in a group where one guy played the most twisted and effed up CE sorcerer you've ever seen. I'm determined to not to ever be like that guy.

[tadkins]

"Greater Teleport"

I think I would put my foot down on some things and give the area some kind of warding against unauthorized teleportation, as well as litter the mountain with anti-aircraft crystals.

Can't make it *that* easy, you know? xD

[Nightraiderx]

ha, as if greater teleport wouldn't be detected by delay teleport fields with an alarm.

[AmberVael]

I think I would put my foot down on some things and give the area some kind of warding against unauthorized teleportation, as well as litter the mountain with anti-aircraft crystals.

Can't make it *that* easy, you know? xD

And then the Druid uses Master Earth and you cry. :smalltongue:

[ahenobarbi]

"Greater Teleport"

Might not work (repeteadly casted Dimensional Lock, Weirdstones, no Astral Plane, ...) however Wish should work.

But it night not be a głód idea - your target might expect you (divinations) and will have advantage (you're fighting in his home).

[tadkins]

And then the Druid uses Master Earth and you cry. :smalltongue:

That druid better hope he or she can take on the boss by themselves, assuming that's where they land. xD

[AmberVael]

That druid better hope he or she can take on the boss by themselves, assuming that's where they land. xD

I don't care who you are or what you can do, a beast summoning fire throwing giant bear is going to give you a run for your money. :smallbiggrin:

[ace rooster]

"Greater Teleport"
Not as simple as that.


you must have at least a reliable description of the place to which you are teleporting.

For precisely the reasons you outline getting a "reliable description" might prove tricky, because each of the defenders will make it so. Good does not mean carefree, or squeemish, so extreme measures to defend information about the mountain can and will be taken.


Areas of strong physical or magical energy may make teleportation more hazardous or even impossible.

Even if you can get a good description the DM can and should just say that you cannot get very close, leading to you having to physically travel at least some of the way.


I think I would go the druid route. Arcane tricks are just too varied to be prepared for, and while paladins and clerics don't worry me, the outsiders do. Archons have at will greater teleport, which makes them near unbeatable as hit and run attackers or runners. Get noticed by a single lantern archon (who has at will detect evil) and they can have 9 trumpet archons teleporting to your location in a minute, even if they have to go to them individually. In this case a large teleport exlusion zone might be to the PCs advantage! Angels are less mobile, but even more powerful. Cr16 creatures that have a large array of abilities on top of casting as level 17 clerics? no thanks :smalleek:.

[tadkins]

I don't care who you are or what you can do, a beast summoning fire throwing giant bear is going to give you a run for your money. :smallbiggrin:

Most definitely, but considering the main guy is an Arcane Hierophant that can do the same thing, and is likely also protected by the power of the fount itself.

[AmberVael]

Most definitely, but considering the main guy is an Arcane Hierophant that can do the same thing, and is likely also protected by the power of the fount itself.

If you have two beast summoning fire flinging giant bears fighting each other, everyone wins.

[tadkins]

If you have two beast summoning fire flinging giant bears fighting each other, everyone wins.

This we can agree on. xD

[(Un)Inspired]

Do the clerics of option 2 have access to DMM?

If no then definitely 2. After I take down 2 I'll hit 1 then 3.


Gotta do them all for maximum xp and gold right?

[tadkins]

Do the clerics of option 2 have access to DMM?

If no then definitely 2. After I take down 2 I'll hit 1 then 3.


Gotta do them all for maximum xp and gold right?

It would depend on the optimization of the group. Chances are I'd have them use what the party is using.

Not sure whether I'd have a time limit though. The group can systematically destroy each route, but by then the final boss might have had time to get some serious preparation in.

[(Un)Inspired]

It would depend on the optimization of the group. Chances are I'd have them use what the party is using.

Not sure whether I'd have a time limit though. The group can systematically destroy each route, but by then the final boss might have had time to get some serious preparation in.

Good call on both your points. Would it be possible to go back and take out groups 1 and 3 after I had felled the final boss?

[Nightraiderx]

It would depend on the optimization of the group. Chances are I'd have them use what the party is using.

Not sure whether I'd have a time limit though. The group can systematically destroy each route, but by then the final boss might have had time to get some serious preparation in.

Hm, preperation time vs final boss having back-up.

[Seclora]

Came up with what I think would be a cool encounter to use against an evil group if I ever got around to DMing one day.

It involves a powerful fount of magical energy high up in a mountain. It is guarded by an organization of goodly folk who seek to protect it, believing that it is the source of all power and life in the world. Unidentifiable as either a natural, arcane or divine source, the mountain is protected and inhabited by a joint effort of all three sects. The leader of this union is himself a powerful Arcane Hierophant.

An evil organization or empire may very well hire a team of adventurers to assassinate the Hierophant and claim and/or corrupt the power for themselves. To reach him at the top of the mountain, the group may take one of three paths.

1. The forested hills, inhabited by the druids and rangers of the order, and filled with all sorts of natural and fey themed obstacles. The leader of this path would be a high level druid.

2. The residential area, where the various citizenry and tradesmen for the order. It is operated by various clerics of knowledge and magic deities, sent here to assist the druids and wizards in the study of the fount. In addition, paladins and outsider agents of the divine guard the residential area. Its final boss would be a high level archivist.

3. A magic academy, protected by wizards, sorcerers, duskblades, as well as the clever traps and obstacles that the Arcane is known to muster. It is led by, as you might guess, a high level wizard.

What do you guys think of this as an encounter? If given the choice, which path would you guys assault?

By the nine hells, why would I assault them on their own turf?

Or rather, why would I open with such an assault? Clearly, the key is to force them, the good guys, to fight on -my- terms.
First, we, myself and 1d4-1 easily manipulated 'friends', gather a horde. Whether this means hiring mercenaries, becoming a thrallherd, or taking leadership is irrelevant, all such individuals are going to be expendable. We have those minions create enough trouble in the area to attract the Font Guardian's attention. They send, likely low-level, agents to investigate. We kill them, weakening their manpower and also gaining XP, and probably crafting XP from their souls. In time, they send increasingly stronger people to slaughter our minions, and even succeed at thwarting our thralls and cohorts a few times. All according to plan.
Second, we plant evidence, forged and as convincing as possible in nature, that there is an evil organization in possession of a second, dark Fountain. If possible, we frame a rival evil organization for this; possibly even whatever fool thought he could order us around. Being heroes, the guardians investigate in the hopes of ending this source of negative, malevolent power. As they prepare to march, we infiltrate the ranks of recruits they assemble and prove our worth destroying their enemies, for XP, lulz, and loot. They invite us into their ranks as 'brothers-in-arms' and open the doors.
Finally, we use their own research to find a way to corrupt the fountain. We exploit interpersonal differences to estrange the three branches from one another, using traps and 'accidents' to eliminate more insightful opponents. When the moment arrives, we kill the Hierophant and taint the fountain. [note to self, come up with escape plan later]


To answer your more direct question though. #2. Not simply because citizens are less threatening, but because the library might include important information. Even if we fail we might manage to escape with something that could help us plan or conduct future attempts.

[tadkins]

Hm, preperation time vs final boss having back-up.

Good point. Theoretically there would be no reason the two remaining leaders wouldn't come to the aid of the final boss, too.


By the nine hells, why would I assault them on their own turf?

Or rather, why would I open with such an assault? Clearly, the key is to force them, the good guys, to fight on -my- terms.
First, we, myself and 1d4-1 easily manipulated 'friends', gather a horde. Whether this means hiring mercenaries, becoming a thrallherd, or taking leadership is irrelevant, all such individuals are going to be expendable. We have those minions create enough trouble in the area to attract the Font Guardian's attention. They send, likely low-level, agents to investigate. We kill them, weakening their manpower and also gaining XP, and probably crafting XP from their souls. In time, they send increasingly stronger people to slaughter our minions, and even succeed at thwarting our thralls and cohorts a few times. All according to plan.
Second, we plant evidence, forged and as convincing as possible in nature, that there is an evil organization in possession of a second, dark Fountain. If possible, we frame a rival evil organization for this; possibly even whatever fool thought he could order us around. Being heroes, the guardians investigate in the hopes of ending this source of negative, malevolent power. As they prepare to march, we infiltrate the ranks of recruits they assemble and prove our worth destroying their enemies, for XP, lulz, and loot. They invite us into their ranks as 'brothers-in-arms' and open the doors.
Finally, we use their own research to find a way to corrupt the fountain. We exploit interpersonal differences to estrange the three branches from one another, using traps and 'accidents' to eliminate more insightful opponents. When the moment arrives, we kill the Hierophant and taint the fountain. [note to self, come up with escape plan later]



Damn, this is impressive. That's what being evil is all about, right there!

I'll only say that, storywise, the druid and wizard leaders are both close brothers, and the archivist leader is a detatched TN bookworm type who separates herself from "petty" conflict that doesn't involve a direct threat against the fount, so estranging them might be difficult. Everything else seems spot-on and a clever approach.

[atemu1234]

Rangers and druids would be easiest to get to. Burn the forest down.

[angry_bear]

How high of level are the 3 leaders? By the sound of things you've got three highly motivated tier 1 goody goodies with access to instantaneous transportation and their own small armies all guarding the same thing. The best option is a simultaneous attack on all three bases and luring their boss elsewhere while all this is happening.

[tadkins]

How high of level are the 3 leaders? By the sound of things you've got three highly motivated tier 1 goody goodies with access to instantaneous transportation and their own small armies all guarding the same thing. The best option is a simultaneous attack on all three bases and luring their boss elsewhere while all this is happening.

Would be tough enough to give a decent challenge to a level appropriate party, depending on what part of the campaign this takes place in. Each one would likely be guarded by a couple of lower level disciples of their class, as well as have support from thematically appropriate guardians (a golem or two for the wizard, some beasts/fey for the druid, and some Planar Allies for the archivist).

[Judge_Worm]

Play as an LE Cleric of Wee Jas. Pretend to be a LG Paladin of Wee Jas (right down to riding in on a celestial Warhorse). Walk right through #2, when questioned, answer honestly, "I am a knight dedicated to the benefaction of my Lady, Wee Jas. I am here to observe the font as part of a divine mission. If you let me pass, then I'll mean you no harm." Yeah it's loaded with half truths, but not a single lie. Also I wear some sort of something to make myself ping as non-evil with detect evil, preferably not something that hides my alignment.

[Honest Tiefling]

+1 to plan Squishy Collateral Damage. Those people are just begging to become shadows or wights anyway.

That, or I'd ask for money in advance from the evil organization, and then turn on them, seeing if I can't get a reward from these people. Maybe see if I can't hang around their place to see if my former employers to attack the place, or otherwise give them enough information to attack. If I can fool them, make myself seem like a more neutrally inclined party so they might help me out more. See who wins the war and mop up both sides.

Thing is about sources of life, is that I like living typically.

[Seclora]

+1 to plan Squishy Collateral Damage. Those people are just begging to become shadows or wights anyway.

That, or I'd ask for money in advance from the evil organization, and then turn on them, seeing if I can't get a reward from these people. Maybe see if I can't hang around their place to see if my former employers to attack the place, or otherwise give them enough information to attack. If I can fool them, make myself seem like a more neutrally inclined party so they might help me out more. See who wins the war and mop up both sides.

Thing is about sources of life, is that I like living typically.

This is a really valid point. And bonus points for backstabbing your former employers; if they had enough to pay you, they have enough to be worth looting. And any serious evil is never too busy for something that potentially important, so they clearly are no threat to me/us.



Damn, this is impressive. That's what being evil is all about, right there!

I'll only say that, storywise, the druid and wizard leaders are both close brothers, and the archivist leader is a detatched TN bookworm type who separates herself from "petty" conflict that doesn't involve a direct threat against the fount, so estranging them might be difficult. Everything else seems spot-on and a clever approach.
Alright, so I'll have to polymorph into a crazy attractive woman, or maybe some sort of Bookish Fey, and seduce both brothers in order to turn them against each other.
Ooh! Or better still, impersonate the TN bookworm and seduce them both, then trick the two of them into meeting me(as her) in two separate towns at the same time. Then I let slip to Madam Librarian that someone, probably one of my own allies who i need/want to eliminate, has tricked them both into walking into a trap. This forces her to A) pick and B) leave while I and my comrades deal with the Hierophant. And if she doesn't go, I guilt trip her about it until she either does or I get annoyed and kill her. Door #2 was my first choice anyways.
Obviously, my 'allies' are ready for a real trap, but are not informed that there may be backup. I win, my allies feel like they won, and enough good guys walk away to keep me entertained the following Thursday.

Edit: on second thought, might just seduce the bookworm and get her to help us. If she's TN and primarily interested in the research, we might be able to just talk her into that ridiculous 'balance' crap that TNs often get so into. Like Honest Tiefling said, I like living typically. Destroying and doing weird stuff to a font of life is probably not a great idea to begin with. Killing good guys though, taking control of everything, nothing to argue with there.