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AstralFire
2014-12-30, 11:19 AM
TL;DR

I'm giving my players a game where they think they're idyllic villagers and everything goes wrong, but they actually used to be the bad guys, until another bad guy betrayed them. But she didn't want them to suffer, since they all used to be friends, so she gave them mind wipes and a happy new life. People wanting revenge on the bad guys interrupt this. Not sure how much I should tell my party up front, wanting to balance "THAT WAS AN AWESOME SURPRISE" and "YOU RUINED MY CHARACTER."

The Post

So I had this great idea (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?319345-Everything-is-a-Lie&p=16603179) for a campaign a while back, and I feel like implementing it now. I made a new thread to avoid necro, but it's pretty much a continuation of that thread. I'm including all the information I think is relevant in this thread, though, so no need to click the link if you don't want.

What follows is the hook I am looking at actually presenting to prospective players. If it's too long, start at the line that has a ♦:


The world is fractured. It always has been, as far as you know. Great masses of land rest in the sky above a molten ball of rock and magic, suspended in the air thanks to torrential fountains of magical energy that pour forth from the exposed core. From the first, people stared across the great, cloudy expanses and wondered about the lands above, below, and around them. Bridges were the first solution -- a slow and agonizing process fraught with danger, ready to collapse at the first shudder or shift in the arcane torrents.

The Explorer's Guild changed all of that. They started out as a loose association of adventurers and inventors from the City of Godiva; they discovered the secret to making skycatchers, the special sails which catch the magic in the wind and propel the caravan barges that you see going to-and-fro port every day. They wanted to explore the world with their new invention. They started, innocently enough, with the great forested skyland miles above Godiva. No one had ever managed to build a bridge or tower high and strong enough to reach the place, and it had been thought to be where the gods resided. The Sacred Wood, it was called.

The inhabitants wanted nothing to do with Godiva, and bolts of lightning issued from the sky, destroying the winged skiffs sent to meet them. They say the Guild Master, Gwendolyn Greenscale, lost her brother. The elves who inhabited that skyland were powerful in magic indeed, but the guild learned quickly and paid much to hire more bodies. It took ten years for the guild to defeat the elves, after which they burned the skyland and plundered its riches. They then turned their attention to their homeland and overthrew the Prince of Godiva with their ill-gotten gains, installing the Guild Master's son in his place.

Other cities on the continent sent help, and the Guild turned to crush them, too. Once the continent of Dalon was conquered, the guild turned its attention to the rest of the world. The goal was no longer to simply explore, but to find and pacify. Those deemed civilized were cowed into submission, via political decapitation or simple show of force; those who the guild did not understand were simply crushed. They got as far as the winds allowed; finding gaps of sky too distant and too fierce for their skiffs to pass, the guild turned their attention inwards, to their colonies. It has been 150 years, and under the "assistance" -- leadership -- of later guild masters, Godiva and its colonies have prospered.

♦ As players, you are all friends who live in a tiny forested village on what remains of the Sacred Wood skyland. Renamed Martinwood, in honor of the old Guild Master's fallen brother, Martinwood is little more than a sleepy lumber settlement. The elves have been allowed a small measure of self-government, though their druids are subject to visits from the guild to ensure harmony. It is almost an idyllic life; your hometown sleeps in the shadows of an abandoned but gleaming Elven castle, overrun with ivy. Despite the village's small size, you have a bustling tavern that is well stocked, for the guild spends good coin to keep Martinwood in repair.

♦ You've all been friends for about twenty years; those of you who are playing characters over thirty-five moved to the village in the last twenty years, while those younger were born there. None of you have had any appreciable contact with the Explorer's Guild, and if you've visited Godiva before, your visit was brief and uncomfortable, though you did not receive foul treatment. For the most part, you're happy to live in the village, and always have been.

The party were all other leaders of the guild during the War of Exploration, and close friends with the guild master. However, they ultimately came to disagreement with the guild leader when she was ready to commit genocide in retaliation for the loss of her sister during a siege, her last remaining sibling. Whether they'd willingly agreed with the purge of the Sacred Wood or had been against it before, the group stood united against her in this.

Realizing that they were correct, she acquiesced on the issue. But she also felt betrayed and vulnerable, deciding to dispose of them. She had them captured in their sleep and put under a spell of suspended animation for several decades, while her men worked on a fitting sentence for those whom she had loved as family but could no longer trust. When they awoke, they were fed false memories and placed in a great illusion powered by the souls of the dead elves in the Sacred Wood. The souls themselves believe much of the illusion, and the only visitors who are real are mages from the guild who seek to maintain the enchantment.

A handful of druids who actually survived the purge and spend the century in hiding have recently made it back to what is now Martinwood and started to unravel the magic, hoping to gain revenge. All of the party were great adventurers in their own right, and the druids hope to use them against the still living guild master, an accomplished sorceress who secretly still lives and controls the Explorer's Guild through the shadows. The druids' goal is to falsely inform the Explorer's Guild of the party's returning memories and a desire for revenge, while assisting the party in surviving. The plan is to eventually aggravate Greenscale into showing herself, and kill both the party and her.

Where I Need Help
I've got two obvious routes here: I can just not tell the PCs anything and let them figure it out for themselves. This has maximum shock value, but if they get invested in their backstory and character concept, this might upset them too much. Or I can tell them a bit of the truth upfront: at the very least tell them that everything their character knows is not necessarily correct, though I'm not sure how far I would go with that if I did.

Jermz
2014-12-30, 12:58 PM
I played in a campaign like this where the DM chose the first option. Admittedly, the 'secret' wasn't directly related to our characters and actions, but it was related to the gods we believed in, the cities we visited and the real people in power.

The 'secret' was that there were no gods, but that there were dragons who ruled the world, masquerading as gods. We were all very surprised, especially my character, a type of paladin dedicated to slaying dragons, when he realized that the patron god of his order was actually an evil dragon. The reason that the order existed in the first place was that the patron dragon (who was actually evil) wanted to train up an order of dragonslayers and unleash them on the remaining gods in hiding, thus ruling the world. The big reveal took place after about 8 months in real-world time, and frankly, it came completely out of the blue. We had absolutely no idea.

If played correctly, and you have experienced players who won't get too caught up in the backstory, I'd definitely recommend the first option. The shock value is priceless, and if you give the PCs even an inkling that something isn't wholly correct, they'll be suspicious the entire time, waiting for that one slip, or reveal.

That campaign was probably one of the best I've played in, the the PCs are still considered heroes and legends in that world (we've continued several other campaigns in the DM's world at different time points in the future).

What levels are you planning to start at? The concept of the characters doesn't necessarily need to be compromised. They can stay with their classes and abilities, under the assumption that they're the same people that they used to be, but are just gradually returning to power. How long do you plan on keeping the PCs in the dark?

Sudokori
2014-12-30, 01:07 PM
This is way beyond what I'm used to. I always had a combat heavy Dm whose campaigns consisted of "you meet in a tavern, you kill stuff, you go to a place, you kill more stuff, you talk to _______, kill more stuff, go to ______ for the awesome _______, kill more stuff on the way, find the ______, then kill the guardian of _________, then go do it all over again.

AstralFire
2014-12-30, 01:08 PM
I was thinking to keep them in the dark until about level 8 or 9 (on a 20 level scale; D&D 5E) with the eventual BBEG encounter for their late teens. 8 months, wow; your DM must have been *dying* with the effort put into maintaining that so long. I hope I can pull it off that long without cracking, though I don't want to make too many firm statements to allow for the PCs doing things I don't expect. I just don't want it to happen before they're powerful enough to start surviving more serious assassination attempts.

1337 b4k4
2014-12-30, 01:20 PM
My suggestion would be that assuming you trust your players to be mature (and they like twists and surprises), is to tell them nothing and drop large (and frankly unsubtle) hints along the way that something is wrong. For example, in the hook you present, make sure you mention to the older characters (the ones that "moved" to the village" that they really don't remember much of life before the village or what really brought them there. When they recall lore and knowledge always emphasize that the information comes from their time in the village, and that they can't remember encountering the item they know about outside the village (or if it's something they don't know about, that they don't remember much about life before the village, so their memory is uncertain). Have other NPCs react to them in ways that suggest their station in life is not what they think it is. Tell them that each character starts with a scar, permanent (but non crippling) injury or small talisman/trinket that they don't remember how they got it. Ask each player to describe the scar, injury or item, and describe what everyone else has always told them is the reason they have it, and describe why their character has their doubts. Then incorporate what your players give you into the game. In short, don't reveal anything upfront other than "there is mystery afoot". Saying "everything you know might not be accurate" is pretty much giving away the "everything you know is a lie" twist, and bottling it all up until the very end just feels sucky. String them along with hints and mysteries and inconsistencies and let them have a hand in crafting their own lie (i.e. when two or more people succeed for knowledge checks, give them all some valid information, then give them each a different and inconsistent piece of information, one correct the others not and ask them why they would remember this information differently). Don't worry that they know something is up, you want them to know that, and you want them to feel uneasy, so that the big twist is not the lie exists, but what the lie reveals.

Mr.Moron
2014-12-30, 01:22 PM
I would start with an initial statement about the game, that part of the premise is that some things may that come up in play may actively change player back story. Leave it at that.

I'd make the mind wipe "Leaky", as a plot device to give players/characters info on a slow-feed basis.

Throw in small flashbacks, maybe some mini-session RP of in-the-past scenes. Give a player's prompts to introduce their own elements to get them invested in the "Twist".





For example after a rest: "[Player A] You recall having a dream last night. It was a struggle of some kind, you think you were fighting against some kind of huge monster. Could the monster in your dream fly?"


When the characters are traveling in an unfamiliar area, and the group fails a check to navigate successfully ask for a wisdom roll or the like. Let the player that rolls the highest know their character suddenly feels very confident of exactly where they need to go. If the players take the "hunch" it's right, if they don't find some way to reveal later it would have been correct.

Just pepper these sort of things in here and there. As you compile enough points, think of some feasible way these things would have formed narratives about earlier adventures. Then prompt players with these these larger pieces of possible narratives as you did before. Give them ways to indirectly pick/choose and modify them.

That's how I'd do it at least. I'd develop things in a way such that players get a sense something is up, long before the characters do.

EDIT:
Assuming the players pre-mind wipe would have been higher level and are starting diminished due to forgotten skills, maybe hand them power up once in a while.

To use 5e examples, if the group is in a real pinch and the level 4 fighter attacks with some maneuver. Just say "Oh, this round up your maneuver die size to a d10, add +2 to your attack roll and you can make two extra attacks".

When they invariably ask why, you can just say "You don't know. Maybe you don't even notice it happened. Roll a wisdom save or insight I guess, whichever is better for you. Get a 12 and you notice. Everyone Else: you certainly do notice, he was moving much faster an more precisely than he usually does"

EDIT(Again): Somehow I duplicated my post's content.

DireSickFish
2014-12-30, 01:31 PM
I would have the memories start to come back to them individually through out the adventuring career. Give everyone different pieces of the puzzle via notes or taking them aside. But I'd have an alternate plausible reason for them receiving the visions. Perhaps one of these druids is very bad at explaining himself and is misconstrued as a bad guy. And oh no the party gets hit with a big whammy spell/ritual and after that the visions keep popping up.

In general as far as how much you should tell them, I'd go for dropping the floor out from under them. It's hard to pull off and could be very satisfying. Especially if they get invested in there character and back-story.

Plerumque
2014-12-30, 01:59 PM
I would agree that giving them some hints is a good idea, but perhaps nothing blatant. Having something about the village be just a little bit off- some of the angles are wrong, or something that's supposed to be solid moves more like a viscous liquid, or the stars one night are in the wrong pattern. You could increase these details as the illusion starts to unravel, thereby creating a very definite sense of 'something is wrong' but not giving much of a clue as to what it really is. That would be one way to help them realize what's going on, particularly if the odd things stop happening after they leave Martinwood.

AstralFire
2014-12-30, 02:04 PM
That's really good input, thanks. I really LOVE all the ideas for the little hints to drop. :)

For the hook: how about this (replacing the two paras with ♦ in front of them)

As players, you are all friends who live in a tiny forested village on what remains of the Sacred Wood skyland. Renamed Martinwood, in honor of the old Guild Master's fallen brother, Martinwood is little more than a sleepy lumber settlement. The elves have been allowed a small measure of self-government, though their druids are subject to visits from the guild to ensure harmony. It is almost an idyllic life; your hometown sleeps in the shadows of an abandoned but gleaming Elven castle, overrun with ivy.

Despite the village's small size, you have a bustling tavern that is well stocked, for the guild spends good coin to keep Martinwood in repair. In fact, there is a surprising amount to do in Martinwood; though the Martinwood Druid Circle keeps to itself, they enjoy a positive and friendly relationship with the villagers, and share a small library; unusual for a village of Martinwood's size. Everyone likes the town's mayor, Julien Marceau, an older man who is something of a father figure to you all. For one reason or another, all of you have lost your family, hence the close bond; parents got old, and if you have siblings, they went on a grand adventure, only to find the world outside was not so grand. Not terrible, but not exciting. You get bored letters from them now and again, promising to come home once they've paid off the fare for a trip back.

Those of you who are playing characters over thirty-five moved to the village in the last twenty years, while those younger were born there. None of you have had any appreciable contact with the Explorer's Guild, and if you've visited Godiva before, your visit was brief and uncomfortable, though you did not receive foul treatment. For the most part, you're happy to live in the village, and always have been. You all became close friends about ten years ago, and you remember the event as fresh as if it had happened yesterday:

One of you (who I will select randomly, if you don't decide amongst yourselves who it is) had ventured into the forest outside the village well after dark. A scarlet moon was out that night, and the druids had asked people not to leave the village for their own safety. For some reason -- whether a task of importance or simple recklessness -- that person headed in anyway, and found him or herself confronted with a dangerous beast in a cave. Somehow, despite the distance of this cave from a village, the others were close enough to hear and rushed in to your rescue. All of you still bear scars from that incident (make sure to include this in your character description), but together, you managed to drive the beast off and collapse into a bloody heap.

The druids found you and healed you. None of you ever got a good look at it, and the druids were always cryptic about the beast when questioned, though greatly relieved you were alive. Since then, you've made certain to stay inside the village whenever a scarlet moon comes. During the day time, you were never able to find that cave again.


The idea being that the beast is actually something of incredibly high CR and it's actually a shared memory of their past life, modified -- some high level creature that they couldn't possibly have survived. Their ties to the event are so strong that the reprogramming wasn't able to completely take.

Mr.Moron
2014-12-30, 02:15 PM
That's really good input, thanks. I really LOVE all the ideas for the little hints to drop. :)

For the hook: how about this (replacing the two paras with ♦ in front of them)

As players, you are all friends who live in a tiny forested village on what remains of the Sacred Wood skyland. Renamed Martinwood, in honor of the old Guild Master's fallen brother, Martinwood is little more than a sleepy lumber settlement. The elves have been allowed a small measure of self-government, though their druids are subject to visits from the guild to ensure harmony. It is almost an idyllic life; your hometown sleeps in the shadows of an abandoned but gleaming Elven castle, overrun with ivy.

Despite the village's small size, you have a bustling tavern that is well stocked, for the guild spends good coin to keep Martinwood in repair. In fact, there is a surprising amount to do in Martinwood; though the Martinwood Druid Circle keeps to itself, they enjoy a positive and friendly relationship with the villagers, and share a small library; unusual for a village of Martinwood's size. Everyone likes the town's mayor, Julien Marceau, an older man who is something of a father figure to you all. For one reason or another, all of you have lost your family, hence the close bond; parents got old, and if you have siblings, they went on a grand adventure, only to find the world outside was not so grand. Not terrible, but not exciting. You get bored letters from them now and again, promising to come home once they've paid off the fare for a trip back.

Those of you who are playing characters over thirty-five moved to the village in the last twenty years, while those younger were born there. None of you have had any appreciable contact with the Explorer's Guild, and if you've visited Godiva before, your visit was brief and uncomfortable, though you did not receive foul treatment. For the most part, you're happy to live in the village, and always have been. You all became close friends about ten years ago, and you remember the event as fresh as if it had happened yesterday:

One of you (who I will select randomly, if you don't decide amongst yourselves who it is) had ventured into the forest outside the village well after dark. A scarlet moon was out that night, and the druids had asked people not to leave the village for their own safety. For some reason -- whether a task of importance or simple recklessness -- that person headed in anyway, and found him or herself confronted with a dangerous beast in a cave. Somehow, despite the distance of this cave from a village, the others were close enough to hear and rushed in to your rescue. All of you still bear scars from that incident (make sure to include this in your character description), but together, you managed to drive the beast off and collapse into a bloody heap.

The druids found you and healed you. None of you ever got a good look at it, and the druids were always cryptic about the beast when questioned, though greatly relieved you were alive. Since then, you've made certain to stay inside the village whenever a scarlet moon comes.


It's a bit much as a hook, in my opinion. The lead-in was already pretty long, and you've just replaced with two paragraphs with 5. It's too concerned with detail, it tries to manage every little thing. I know a lot of players that could barely be bothered to even skim all that.

I think a lot of what it tries to cover could just be handled with a real time discussion during character creation. The initial info dump needs to be much more digestible.

Jermz
2014-12-30, 02:16 PM
I was thinking to keep them in the dark until about level 8 or 9 (on a 20 level scale; D&D 5E) with the eventual BBEG encounter for their late teens. 8 months, wow; your DM must have been *dying* with the effort put into maintaining that so long. I hope I can pull it off that long without cracking, though I don't want to make too many firm statements to allow for the PCs doing things I don't expect. I just don't want it to happen before they're powerful enough to start surviving more serious assassination attempts.

Yeah, it was a long time - though we only play once every two weeks, on average.

Hint are fine, but I agree with one of the posters above me that you can't give anything blatant. Once the players think that something is going on, they'll start to pester and bug you about stuff that you can't talk about. Small hints are good.

Mr.Moron
2014-12-30, 02:19 PM
Once the players think that something is going on, they'll start to pester and bug you about stuff that you can't talk about. Small hints are good.

This isn't a huge problem exactly. "No" is always an option, but at the same time their questions and prompting can be used as a means to introduce more clues. Unless the players are super stubborn and intentionally disruptive managing some curiosity really shouldn't be all that problematic.

AstralFire
2014-12-30, 02:19 PM
It's a bit much as a hook, in my opinion. The lead-in was already pretty long, and you've just replaced with two paragraphs with 5. It's too concerned with detail, it tries to manage every little thing. I know a lot of players that could barely be bothered to even skim all that.

I think a lot of what it tries to cover could just be handled with a real time discussion during character creation. The initial info dump needs to be much more digestible.

That's fair. I'll look into making it shorter and junk. But it looks solid on the content front, as far as planting seeds?

Mr.Moron
2014-12-30, 02:26 PM
That's fair. I'll look into making it shorter and junk. But it looks solid on the content front, as far as planting seeds?

Once you've reached "Too Much" you've already cruised past "Enough" generally speaking. I feel like until trimmed any specific criticism would really be more along the lines of nitpicking subjective style choices than anything else. (like if the world was always in pieces, it wasn't "Fractured" the original natural order wouldn't be described in terms of it being broken!).

So it's probably fine on that front.

DrDeth
2014-12-30, 02:28 PM
This is very problematic.

Players are in charge of their own PCs. Not the DM.

What you are saying is that "Well, your character actually did this and was like this- no matter how you think you have envisaged him/her".

Plerumque
2014-12-30, 02:31 PM
It's definitely a misdirection, which could be positive or negative depending on your goals. Personally, I find it a little less subtle than I would prefer, and the fact that it's included in the introduction gives a big clue that something's up, but it may work for your players. They might head back out to the woods again if they get frustrated investigating in town, which would probably be bad if your plan is for it to be a monster they couldn't possibly defeat. Then again, that could be an opportunity for dropping some more clues. I'd go with smaller things, but that has the risk of going over their heads.

DireSickFish
2014-12-30, 02:39 PM
I'd avoid telling the players that the Mayer is like a father figure to them, as it "makes" them feel a certain way about an NPC. Unless the mayer is going to be the reason they work together, handing out quests ect so the players need to be on friendly terms. You can describe him as fatherly, but let the players decide how they feel about him. Some might think he's to soft or nosy. A minor change I admit.

I do have a question about the druids and how they are worked in. Before you said they were going to be actively trying to disrupt the magic creating the illusion but here they are presented as working with and protecting the PCs. Shouldn't the big bad be trying to keep them away from the village? If they encountered the PC's wouldn't they be a bit more hostile and gruff as they either remember them from back when they were adventuring or notice they are wrapped up in the magic they are trying to unveil?

I don't think your hook is to long but it does seem limiting in ideas for backgrounds. The only things to latch onto are the druid circle, the library, and the inn. They are scared (from there back story) to leave town. All family connections are cut off, so they can't really make there own. I know the illusion they are under has everything sanitized so they don't remember but they do need a reason to go out and adventure again.

Oh and with that backstory I'd totally want to make one of the druids that has been protecting and working with the vilage as it sounds like the most fleshed out thing int he hook. Not sure if you want that as then they might be privy to actual real people information instead of dream information.

I think having/hearing your plan for the first session will help with the hook generation. That way the PC's will already be pre-dispositioned to the hook.

AstralFire
2014-12-30, 02:40 PM
Once you've reached "Too Much" you've already cruised past "Enough" generally speaking. I feel like until trimmed any specific criticism would really be more along the lines of nitpicking subjective style choices than anything else. (like if the world was always in pieces, it wasn't "Fractured" the original natural order wouldn't be described in terms of it being broken!).

So it's probably fine on that front.


It's definitely a misdirection, which could be positive or negative depending on your goals. Personally, I find it a little less subtle than I would prefer, and the fact that it's included in the introduction gives a big clue that something's up, but it may work for your players. They might head back out to the woods again if they get frustrated investigating in town, which would probably be bad if your plan is for it to be a monster they couldn't possibly defeat. Then again, that could be an opportunity for dropping some more clues. I'd go with smaller things, but that has the risk of going over their heads.

Right now I'm going to work on making a more proper resource so I can keep the hook itself short, as suggested, and allow people to explore information at their leisure if they are interested. Thanks so much for all the input from you two and everyone else.


This is very problematic.

Players are in charge of their own PCs. Not the DM.

What you are saying is that "Well, your character actually did this and was like this- no matter how you think you have envisaged him/her".

Concern over that is why I was polling for opinions on how to approach this.


I'd avoid telling the players that the Mayer is like a father figure to them, as it "makes" them feel a certain way about an NPC. Unless the mayer is going to be the reason they work together, handing out quests ect so the players need to be on friendly terms. You can describe him as fatherly, but let the players decide how they feel about him. Some might think he's to soft or nosy. A minor change I admit.

I do have a question about the druids and how they are worked in. Before you said they were going to be actively trying to disrupt the magic creating the illusion but here they are presented as working with and protecting the PCs. Shouldn't the big bad be trying to keep them away from the village? If they encountered the PC's wouldn't they be a bit more hostile and gruff as they either remember them from back when they were adventuring or notice they are wrapped up in the magic they are trying to unveil?

I don't think your hook is to long but it does seem limiting in ideas for backgrounds. The only things to latch onto are the druid circle, the library, and the inn. They are scared (from there back story) to leave town. All family connections are cut off, so they can't really make there own. I know the illusion they are under has everything sanitized so they don't remember but they do need a reason to go out and adventure again.

Oh and with that backstory I'd totally want to make one of the druids that has been protecting and working with the vilage as it sounds like the most fleshed out thing int he hook. Not sure if you want that as then they might be privy to actual real people information instead of dream information.

I think having/hearing your plan for the first session will help with the hook generation. That way the PC's will already be pre-dispositioned to the hook.

1) Noted and appreciated, re: Mayor. I will make that change. :)
2) The druids as the players see them and the druids that are behind it all are two separate groups; one is part of the illusion, the other is not.
3) First session, I'm not sure on just yet. Have some ideas floating around, but nothing concrete!

Mr.Moron
2014-12-30, 02:50 PM
Concern over that is why I was polling for opinions on how to approach this.

I think a minor disclosure that "Gameplay may cause characters to differ from initial designs" is enough to ward off most dissatisfaction along these lines provided it's executed with more grace than an exposition dump some 50-odd sessions in.

It does depend on player base. A lot of folks approach the game in a way where they see their character as the protagonist, the rest of the game as the supporting cast and the GM at best the pesky editor of the story they're making for their character. This usually isn't terribly disruptive since it's the kind of thing that really stays inside the individuals own head. Heck it's probably more than norm than not.

This is going to fly a lot better with folks who engage with the game to be part of something bigger, rather than only in the moments when they have the spotlight. I feel like the kind of player who is still at 90%+ attention when the focus is on another player stand a good chance of being receptive to this. If they're the type likely to glaze over, or reach for their phone when their character isn't actively involved the idea isn't going to work with them no matter how well executed it is.

EDIT:

tl;dr: only try this with players that

A) You know well and have played multiple games with previously.
B) You know like engaging outside things they directly control.
C) Enjoy watching and reacting to things others come up with.

DireSickFish
2014-12-30, 03:03 PM
2) The druids as the players see them and the druids that are behind it all are two separate groups; one is part of the illusion, the other is not.


Cool. There should be one defining trait that your illusion druids have that the real ones don't or vice versa. Just to show how different the groups are. I once had a very confused group of players when I had two or three different sects of the same religion involved in a setting and to the players they were all just "clerics of the evil god".

AstralFire
2014-12-30, 03:03 PM
This is the first group I've had where every player is a veteran of past campaigns with me, so I'm sure they'll handle it in a mature way; I left the troublemakers out for this one. I'm not expecting any nightmare stories or tantrums (for once; some of my problem player stories have been legendary, like the dude who wished my sick uncle dead). I just really want to entertain them. ^__^ They're great people.

Thank you all so much for the input.


Cool. There should be one defining trait that your illusion druids have that the real ones don't or vice versa. Just to show how different the groups are. I once had a very confused group of players when I had two or three different sects of the same religion involved in a setting and to the players they were all just "clerics of the evil god".

I'm planning the fake!druids to be huggy hippy types and the real!druids to be real harsh and arrogant, though kinda justified given the genocide they survived. They never liked humans and the war didn't exactly make them like humans any more.

EDIT: Planning on this as the disclaimer:
I have a complicated premise for this game, and I hope you all trust me, given our past campaign(s). I would like to warn you that your characters will be subjected to situations which I expect may change their concepts as originally envisioned, so I request that you create characters who you enjoy and are attached to -- not throwaway -- but that you are also willing to see grow and evolve.

GorinichSerpant
2014-12-31, 01:25 AM
Here's an interesting question, what if one of your players wants to play a Druid?

Jermz
2014-12-31, 03:18 AM
This is the first group I've had where every player is a veteran of past campaigns with me, so I'm sure they'll handle it in a mature way; I left the troublemakers out for this one. I'm not expecting any nightmare stories or tantrums (for once; some of my problem player stories have been legendary, like the dude who wished my sick uncle dead). I just really want to entertain them. ^__^ They're great people.

EDIT: Planning on this as the disclaimer:
I have a complicated premise for this game, and I hope you all trust me, given our past campaign(s). I would like to warn you that your characters will be subjected to situations which I expect may change their concepts as originally envisioned, so I request that you create characters who you enjoy and are attached to -- not throwaway -- but that you are also willing to see grow and evolve.

I think that's a pretty good disclaimer, and if they're as mature and experienced as you indicate, they should be able to take things in stride and enjoy the ride. When pulled off correctly, the surprise reveal is a significant tool that makes for memorable campaigns!

the_david
2014-12-31, 05:13 AM
You could use the Pathfinder option of presenting the players some campaign traits that adds something to their backgrounds. Something like the encounter with the monster you described, or a scar they have no memory of. The trait would give a little bonus. (The encounter with the monster would give a +2 bonus on saves vs. fear effects, for example.)
This way, the players will get different ties to the campaign and they won't feel forced.

goto124
2014-12-31, 05:26 AM
I request that you create characters who you enjoy and are attached to -- not throwaway -- but that you are also willing to see grow and evolve.

May I ask why this bit is important? Wouldn't it be easier for them to let you change their character's backstories if they didn't put in much effort to that particular detail in the first place?

That, or experienced players probably won't want to make throwaway characters at all, and you don't want to sound like you're asking them to do that.

Rallicus
2014-12-31, 05:53 AM
I don't like it. Mainly because you're taking away the one thing the players have control of -- their PCs -- and molding them to fit your narrative without their knowledge.

"No John, you are the zombies" or the KOTOR twist isn't great to begin with either. If I was a part of this campaign I'd probably just roll my eyes once the twist was revealed.


Admittedly, the 'secret' wasn't directly related to our characters and actions, but it was related to the gods we believed in, the cities we visited and the real people in power.

This I can get behind.

AstralFire
2014-12-31, 08:47 AM
I don't like it. Mainly because you're taking away the one thing the players have control of -- their PCs -- and molding them to fit your narrative without their knowledge.

"No John, you are the zombies" or the KOTOR twist isn't great to begin with either. If I was a part of this campaign I'd probably just roll my eyes once the twist was revealed.

I generally give players more control of things besides PCs. Owning a home base and getting a faction to control is a recurring thing in campaigns I do. I'm all about player agency. I am not going to force on them any aspect of their 'old' lives, mechanically, and if they ultimately reject who their characters were entirely, presenting themselves as entirely new people, I will stand by that. I am not making a story, I am making a world and I want to see how they react with it.


May I ask why this bit is important? Wouldn't it be easier for them to let you change their character's backstories if they didn't put in much effort to that particular detail in the first place?

Two of our players are very good RPers, but constantly wish to try out new concepts. This didn't actually come up once they were playing under me as opposed to the DM we met under, but I wanted to put that out there just in case.

Some of the players are getting really into the NPCs that have been thrown about in brainstorm, so one thing I am now keeping in the back of my head is -- once the unreal nature of it all's shown up -- playing with the whole "question of what is real" thing, possibly some way to make them really real or solidify them, which I hope will be a fun theme, especially for the ones who have done work with AI. :)

Hooray, a map! (http://imgur.com/a/LJKQp#2)


You could use the Pathfinder option of presenting the players some campaign traits that adds something to their backgrounds. Something like the encounter with the monster you described, or a scar they have no memory of. The trait would give a little bonus. (The encounter with the monster would give a +2 bonus on saves vs. fear effects, for example.)
This way, the players will get different ties to the campaign and they won't feel forced.

I'm trying to use trinkets and backgrounds to similar effect, though small little buffs are much more discouraged in 5E than PF.


Here's an interesting question, what if one of your players wants to play a Druid?

They have been legitimately trained as a druid by souls who are, themselves, druids -- they just aren't alive, or remembering everything correctly, for that matter.

Arracor
2015-01-01, 04:07 PM
Well I for one welcome our amnesiac overlords.

I think it's a great idea, personally. Provided you can set things up for their character development to take place in the present, and not the past, I don't see any issue with this in a group of relatively mature and competent players. In fact, as long as you get them to confine their backstories to their time in the village, I don't see any reason that life can't be largely real as well. So they were a blacksmith for the last x years? Sure! That's what they've been doing since **** went down, and hell, they might've been one before too. Actually..... what if you allow them their backstories as per usual, and the truth of it is that.... it's all largely true? Perhaps their 'fake' backstory is largely composed of the same themes as their true backstory, and, as with the beast encounter, those aspects of their former life carried over and stuck with them in their new village life. In that way you don't have to invalidate anything, but rather find a way to work those things into their true origin so that upon the reveal, they in fact gain the opportunity to flesh their backstory out with greater and more interesting detail.

Zweisteine
2015-01-01, 07:23 PM
I would start with an initial statement about the game, that part of the premise is that some things may that come up in play may actively change player back story.
I agree that this is important. Tell the players ahead of time that the plot will mess with their backstories. Besides that, a few other restrictions on backstories seem like good ideas, but be careful not to annoy the players with them.

No overly dramatic backstories; the characters false memories should be of fairly average lives.
Contrary to that number 1, no overly boring backstories, either. None of the characters should know of any relatives (all orphaned young), because they have none. If this were anything but an RPG, you could use confusion about memories of family for hints, but that works poorly in the medium of D&D.
Age limits: None of the characters should be too old. Whoever created the false memories only had so much time.

Also, if any of them do create deep backstories, make sure to get copies. Then you can do extra-special hints. They come to a city they once visited or lived in, but can't remember where in the city their house was (but they remember the house), and they don't remember or recognize anyone as their old neighbors.

And when the big reveal comes, let them make their "real" backstories. Maybe not right away, but in between sessions, they can decide what villains they were.

As for hints...
As they venture to more populous areas, people start looking at them strangely, and looking away if noticed. People might act nervous around them, because they remember the villains of old.

Dreams are good. A bloody battlefield of dead bodies, echoing with insane laughter might do well. And roll a die or two when the dreams happen, especially if the players metagame excessively (it'll make them think of dream spells or something).
If your world has any sort of magical nexuses, you could use them to start dream scenes. If the party sleeps in an area with inherent magic, they might have a group dream of some of their experiences in previous lives. And when they wake up, they get some experience (regained memories*) and (in character) are surprised to discover that they really shared the dream.

*Giving experience as they regain memories has two benefits. It makes sense that they would gain skills they had forgotten as they regain memories, and it will make your players happier about being amnesiac archvillains.