Taking a race With ought Primary Stat boost

[DireSickFish]

We all know that a half orc barbarian is good synergy, and that variant humans and half elves can be any clase with there nice +1 to any stats. But how bad is it in this edition to take a race which gives you no stat boosts to your primary ability? For this I'd like to assume the 27 point buy proposed in the PHB. Which means your main stat could be at best, a 15.

With bounded accuracy is that +1 loss a bigger deal int his edition than in past ones? It seems much harder to make up for the low stat with gear and spells, or to find abilities which don't use the main stat. Casters might have an easier time dumping there casting stat than martials if they go a buffing route. Are some classes easier to have low "main" stats than other?

It just seems much harder for me in this edition to build a character that has a non synergistic race.

[themaque]

I would say it depends on your style of play and your own mindset.

you are typically going to be short a +1 to your stat. Now you can look at how few bonuses you get and this could be a really important +1. or you can look at it as "It's only a plus one, I'm not missing that much".

This is where the style of play for the game comes in. Do you need to be squeezing every ounce of optimization out of your character to survive? Or is this more story driven where playing the race that feels right will be of more import than having that extra plus 1?

I find Variant human HIGHLY tempting no matter what class I'm playing. But If my idea for a race/class combo isn't perfect, I might lose out a minor bonus but be rewarded by playing the class I really want to play.

[AstralFire]

As long as the race boosts a stat that you care about at all, it's usable - you'll just feel it for the first 5 or so levels. In my estimation, anyway. The fact that there's a 20 stat point hard cap for all classes means that you'll have caught up by level 12 or earlier as long as the race was boosting anything remotely important.

[Sudokori]

Meh. As long as the DM's play style and your play style match then there won't be a problem much. A +1 isn't everything, but some people believe otherwise.

[Dalebert]

Someone posted a house rule (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?385361-Proposed-House-Rules-and-Feedback) that they give every race but humans 2 points in one stat and 1 point in another stat--both player's choice. The idea was they wanted people to pick races more on the flavor that suits them and fits their concept than on number-crunching. I really like the idea and have taken up that house rule myself.

I still think of the assigned stats as being typical of the particular race in generalities, but players (and a few NPCs here and there) can be unusual. They're the heroes of the "story", after all. :)

I'm sorry that you have to play something that doesn't fit your concept over math. I had the same experience recently and made do, switching from my concept of a forest gnome druid and went with an on-the-short-side wood elf. I just love the idea of a tiny character suddenly transforming into an imposing grizzly!

[Justin Sane]

My group has a Dex-based, TWF (offhand is his shield) Hill Dwarf Hunter Ranger. He's doing fine next to my GWF Half-Elf Oath of Vengeance Paladin. Both of us used the Elite Array, and we're level 3.
Just one data point, take it as you will.

[MadGrady]

Someone posted a house rule (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?385361-Proposed-House-Rules-and-Feedback) that they give every race but humans 2 points in one stat and 1 point in another stat--both player's choice. The idea was they wanted people to pick races more on the flavor that suits them and fits their concept than on number-crunching. I really like the idea and have taken up that house rule myself.

I just used this houserule in the campaign I am starting up this week. My thought was exactly what you said - race should be part of the concept, not a hinderance to it (unless that is part of the concept lol). My players enjoyed it, and I felt it allows a bit more "realism" into the races. Not everyone in a race is Agile or Smart. You will have an infinite range of abilities within a race. It would make sense then that a character with certain natural tendencies would tend towards certain professions.

[Easy_Lee]

I suggest simply not using the standard point but rules in that case, but rolling or using a higher maximum instead. If you need your main stat to be high immediately, this can help.

[themaque]

Since none of the PHB races actually have a penalty to any of their stats anymore, you really could play any race/class as written.

You're only penalized if you see it as such. But if it makes your group happy, that's most important.

[Emongnome777]

As long as the race boosts a stat that you care about at all, it's usable - you'll just feel it for the first 5 or so levels. In my estimation, anyway. The fact that there's a 20 stat point hard cap for all classes means that you'll have caught up by level 12 or earlier as long as the race was boosting anything remotely important.

This.

To me, the hard cap opens the door for any race / class combination. Maxing a stat takes longer, but I can still feel that a character won't always be "behind", so to speak. Granted, if your racial bonus was to a dump stat, then it may hurt a little.

Also, a +1 only matters once every 20 rolls you use that stat (attacks, saves, skills, etc.). Take that for what it's worth.

[Dalebert]

Also, a +1 only matters once every 20 rolls you use that stat (attacks, saves, skills, etc.). Take that for what it's worth.

Level 12 is a LONG time to be lagging, but this is a good point. I hadn't thought of it that way. Now I almost wish I'd gone ahead and played that forest gnome druid. :)

What about just giving everyone one free point in a stat that doesn't already receive a bonus? You could make an exception for humans without the variant feat option and just let them double up in one stat.

[AstralFire]

What about just giving everyone one free point in a stat that doesn't already receive a bonus? You could make an exception for humans without the variant feat option and just let them double up in one stat.

What I did was I actually buffed the normal human to give them an extra skill proficiency and a second background of their choice (so two tools or languages and a feature). Then I gave everyone a feat. Having a +2 and a feat brings you to +4, having just a feat brings you to +3. This is not as sharp a difference as +3 vs +2.

[Edenbeast]

Depends on what kind of player you are... If you only care about having the highest primary stat possible, then yes.
IMO it doesn't matter that much, it's only +2 or +1. A character will still be playable. If your concept is a halfling wizard, then put your best score in INT and you're ready to go.

[Selkirk]

in point buy it matters more but there are so many variables (group play style/class) that it probably won't matter that much. with bounded accuracy armor class (at least at first 5 levels) seems more important than any stats you have.

even the most optimized character fails only slightly less than a weaker char and some(arguably most) stats are meaningless (like charisma or rely on dm fiat to actually 'work'..so in reality depending on class you might have 3 dump stats).

[JBPuffin]

I think it's about as easy to play what you want statistically as any addition - my Forest Gnome Outlander Trickery Cleric certainly agrees, and she doesn't have a stat above +2. Of course, if you want to optimize you're perfectly free to try - and succeed, it's not terribly hard even in just the PHB - but it certainly isn't survival-important and in the long run, weird combos are fun. So go, give us a Half-Orc Wizard! And give us a model for what that looks like, no one really knows...

[Mandragola]

I think this matters way more to people who add their stat to damage, generally because they hit or shoot things, than it does to casters.

A fighter with a weak attacking stat is losing +1 to hit and damage multiple times a round. A wizard's enemies will have easier saves but the damage will typically be the same if enemies fail, many spells cause half damage even on a passed save and a bunch of stuff (haste, silence and so on) doesn't require or allow saves.

I think maybe a druid cares least about their stats of anyone, since they just turn into a bear a lot anyway - though on the other hand wisdom is great.

That said, some of the control caster stuff does really want to work. The enemy must fail their save against hold person, or you wasted your turn and a spell slot, so if that sort of thing is your bag then you do want maxed-out main stat.

Another factor is MADness. From level 8 onwards a hill dwarf fighter is arguably better than most others, despite never getting the bonus to str. He's str 20 anyway and has more hp than the next guy. But a hill dwarf paladin, getting bonuses to neither strength or charisma, needing both, and not having the fighter's extra ability boosts will look a lot less impressive.

Then there are weird things where maybe a character isn't really using their primary stat after all. Something like a valour bard or a bladelock who really spends his time bashing things and wants str/dex more than charisma, for example. But then arguably charisma isn't really the primary stat in that case. It could be fun to run a mountain dwarf bladelock, with starting stats 16Str 14Dex 16Con 8Int 9Wis 14Cha. He'd actually be pretty powerful I think - though eventually you'd feel the difference. Warlocks do have a ton of spells that aren't stat-dependent at all - notably hex of course. As you went up the levels you could be casting stuff like misty step or haste, and happily chopping things up with your pact greataxe all the while. Not sure I'd call it optimal, but it would be entertaining!

[Selkirk]

i guess you can look at it 2 ways. with the small proficiency bonuses optimizing matters a tremendous amount...or conversely the proficiency bonuses are so small they are largely negligible. i would argue the latter. i found the 2 most important things for a party are winning initiative and not getting hit (rather obvious i know :D but it's where armor class becomes vital...getting platemail is more important than ones or twos to str or con).

to initiative...taking the alert feat trumps ability score increases (+5 to initiative ...can't be surprised) in almost all cases. a character(regardless of class) with a high dex and alertness will be more effective(and fun) than his counterpart running with higher ability scores in say str/wis/int/con or cha :smalleek:. the ability to actually in effect get a free move and dictate your place on the battlefield has tremendous value. a higher con lower dex char in contrast will have more hp's but will be hit much more :D. plus this character will be constantly put in a reactive mode during combats and might not even get a chance to use his or her higher str/wis/int etc...but initiative pops up every encounter.

[silveralen]

Well... It depends.

Or example, a monk might survive not getting a dex boost if he got a wisdom boost instead. Helps other aspects of the character.

By the same token, a valor bard without a charisma bonus can do well with a strength or dexterity bonus.

Mountain dwarf wizard works as well, you don't get a bonus to your primary, but more HP and better concentration checks+armor prof is helpful.

You need some synergy somewhere to make it a good choice.

[Particle_Man]

I have a player with a halfling wizard and he seems to be having fun with it, despite no racial INT boost.

[Kyutaru]

Like my wizard even needs any stats. He's going to be casting Invisibility, Haste, and Magic Missile for his entire existence.

Who actually depends on saving throws to be an effective mage??

[Particle_Man]

Like my wizard even needs any stats. He's going to be casting Invisibility, Haste, and Magic Missile for his entire existence.

Although in 5e that wizard can't have invisibility and haste up simultaneously, due to concentration rules.

[DireSickFish]

to initiative...taking the alert feat trumps ability score increases (+5 to initiative ...can't be surprised) in almost all cases. a character(regardless of class) with a high dex and alertness will be more effective(and fun) than his counterpart running with higher ability scores in say str/wis/int/con or cha :smalleek:. the ability to actually in effect get a free move and dictate your place on the battlefield has tremendous value. a higher con lower dex char in contrast will have more hp's but will be hit much more :D. plus this character will be constantly put in a reactive mode during combats and might not even get a chance to use his or her higher str/wis/int etc...but initiative pops up every encounter.

Well what about the god-stat of Dex. Say I make a Dragonborn rogue, my highest Dex can be is only 15 and I'm restricted to light armor. This gives me a very low AC. Still think Alertness would be a better buy than trying to get Dex caught back up?

I find it very interesting that people have seen it restricting enough to come up with an alternative system for racial stat boosts.

I guess at 14 seems barely above average for a character. While a 16 seems like they are good at the role, and that is what the racial stat boost is basically getting you. I do like that races "fit" certain classes better than others. There do seem to be classes that either can go with a low primary stat or can have alternate primary stats. Like a wizard can have low int if they take spells that don't require attack roles or saves. Or how a Pally can pump Charisma instead of strength.

[Selkirk]

i would argue yes..i still take alert, +5 to initiative and never being surprised is absolutely huge. for scouting i would much rather have never being surprised rather than a +1 to perception from higher dex. but, it's the initiative bonus that let's you shine almost every time. i can now set up favorable situations in regards to cover/hiding and attacks at advantage etc. you get all this at the mild sacrifice of a +1 to hit rolls/skill checks. seems like a no brainer.

and this applies even moreso to a class like the plate fighter/cleric (who might have dumped dex figuring they get no bonuses to ac and won't be fighting ranged-might be using thrown and mostly melee etc..). they absolutely must have dex even tho mechanically it makes no sense. but let's say they trapped themselves with build and dumped dex, alert feat at least offers a way out(or part of the way :D). with alert instead of being constantly buried on initiative turns they can now act-in effect giving themselves a turn instead of constantly being given forced 'choices'..

dm: ok cleric it's your turn and two of your mates are poked full of goblin arrows-what are you going to do ?
cleric: ummm, let's see...i'll cast heal.
dm: rogue your up again...:D

or consider 2 4th level parties: party a( dex's at 14 with rogue at 16 and everyone took alert feat) or party b (rogue has 18 dex , 2 party members have 14 dex and one has 10 dex-this party took ability increases). party a walks into every encounter with +7-8 to initiative and can never be surprised. party b is going into initiatives at +0-2 for most and +4 for one and can be surprised. which party would you take? which party would your dm want you to have :smallbiggrin:?

assume equal gear and 4 man parties (but obviously could be expanded to 6 person party or whatever...).

[silveralen]

Well what about the god-stat of Dex. Say I make a Dragonborn rogue, my highest Dex can be is only 15 and I'm restricted to light armor.

I guess at 14 seems barely above average for a character. While a 16 seems like they are good at the role, and that is what the racial stat boost is basically getting you. I do like that races "fit" certain classes better than others. There do seem to be classes that either can go with a low primary stat or can have alternate primary stats. Like a wizard can have low int if they take spells that don't require attack roles or saves. Or how a Pally can pump Charisma instead of strength.

Dragonborn rogue is, overall, one of the hardest to justify. However, it can be done, probably by going for a "thug" theme.

In that case, you focus on strength, charisma, and dexterity. Strength is your combat stat, charisma is for social skills, dex is defense and utility.

Multiclass with barbarian early to grab medium armor and enjoy constant advantage, plus the fun of rage. Then focus back on rogue, maybe going for a few more levels of barbarian for extra attack or the neat initiative bonus. Heck, maybe even split the two evenly if you go assassin for the critical bonuses. You can't use a two handed weapon due to sneak attack restrictions, but you can grab a shield for defense (If multi barbarian gives you that) or duel wield for a better chance to land sneak attacks, plus more chances to benefit from rage damage bonus. Personally I'd ask to use a 1d8 weapon that isn't a rapier, like a flail or warhammer, just to fit the theme.

It's a very different type of rogue, but it isn't bad. If you use one thing of expertise on thieves tools and stealth, you aren't actually struggling much at traditional rogue abilities.

5e is pretty good about that, you can typically build non traditional characters without gimping yourself badly.

[Ghost Nappa]

Its hurts you more if you are multi-classing or playing MAD classes like Monk and Ranger.

[silveralen]

Its hurts you more if you are multi-classing or playing MAD classes like Monk and Ranger.

I'd argue that very mad classes, like monk, can justify a race lacking a primary boost if it has a secondary boost. With monk, it isn't hard to justify a wisdom boosting race, as it still nets you higher DCs on your abilities while keeping an AC boost. Of course, having a boost to neither ability becomes dramatically worse.

[Dalebert]

I can't remember if it's been mentioned in this thread, but in another thread, someone said they allow their players to exchange a +2 starting stat bonus for a feat. There are many feats that get you a +1 to some stat along with some other benefit. This seems like a reasonable way to make many races more playable in different roles without unbalancing things. What do you folks think?