Dragon! Dragon! Rock the Dragon!

[Metahuman1]

Ok, so, I've got a buddy who's experienced with 2nd edition AD&D and a little with 3.5 D&D, and he's recently joined our 3.5 Campaign using a character I helped him to build. A Pixie Factotum/Swordsage. He's had a couple of sessions now, and he's having an absolute blast.

Now, last night at the session, he floated the idea of bringing in another character of his from 2nd edition, a were dragon, who he said was like a monk in 2nd edition. I've discussed the idea of in a couple of levels when he get's another feat letting him take Leadership with the DM. The Dm has said to let him think about it, and to have a back up feat in mind for that point if he decides he's not up for having such a cohort, but he also said it would be ok to hammer out rebuilding the character in 3.5 in the mean time while he thinks it over, in case he says yes to it.


So, I came across what appears to be the 2nd edition update to the were dragon, the Monsters of Fearun Song Dragon. One minor fluff issue aside (Always female. If the DM approves this I know his style and he will be only to happy to change that detail for role play sake.), I need to figure out how to adjust this into a playable race, if it's even possible to do so, that can run as a competent unarmed combatant.


So, I come to the playground for help in this matter. Help me make the song dragon a generally playable race in a game that isn't using Gestalt or Epic Level's, that can be a good martial artist, if it is even possible to do so.

[Uncle Pine]

I'm not completely sure whether or not I understood what you're asking for. Are you looking for a way to create a weredragon (a lycanthrope based on a dragon) in 3.5e? If so, the monstrous lycanthrope found in the Advanced Bestiary (a 3rd party splatbook from Green Ronin Publishing) could be what you're looking for. Do you need a plausible LA for a song dragon cohort because this weredragon creature from AD&D has capabilities that are comparable to those of a song dragon? Did I completely misunderstand your request?

[Urpriest]

The web enhancement that updated the Song Dragon to 3.5 is located here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040313a). It's got information on the level adjustments and the like.

That said, if the character your friend is remembering wasn't female, they probably weren't a Song Dragon. If they were just a dragon that lived among humans there are tons of Dragons capable of that, with Steel Dragons probably being the best choice.

[Ruethgar]

There are also the 10 MMI dragons available at no LA in Dragon #320 and #332 though going to wyrmling in them wouldn't be too bad. The Tome and Hex dragons also get humanoid and animal forms at will for being Arcane Dragons and their is a feat that lets you apply half dragon to your alternate form for a more lycanthrope feel with a hybrid form. With the LA +0 racial options mentioned above that can be quite potent if you can get alternate form from something other than the dragon racial class.

[Urpriest]

There are also the 10 MMI dragons available at no LA in Dragon #320 and #332 though going to wyrmling in them wouldn't be too bad. The Tome and Hex dragons also get humanoid and animal forms at will for being Arcane Dragons and their is a feat that lets you apply half dragon to your alternate form for a more lycanthrope feel with a hybrid form. With the LA +0 racial options mentioned above that can be quite potent if you can get alternate form from something other than the dragon racial class.

They aren't LA +0, just to be precise. They're monster classes, they add LA as part of their progression.

[Ruethgar]

They can be multiclassed out of as soon as you complete an age category. By selecting one of those dragons as your race at all you have completed the Hatchling age category and need not take any levels in the monster class. If you do take levels in it you have to go to wyrmling at minimum before multiclassing out again though.

[Urpriest]

They can be multiclassed out of as soon as you complete an age category. By selecting one of those dragons as your race at all you have completed the Hatchling age category and need not take any levels in the monster class. If you do take levels in it you have to go to wyrmling at minimum before multiclassing out again though.

That only works if Hatchling is itself an age category, which is kind of fuzzy since it's not on the charts in the MM. Also, you can't get Alternate Form without going to Wyrmling.

[(Un)Inspired]

They aren't LA +0, just to be precise. They're monster classes, they add LA as part of their progression.

True, but the LA are bought off much more easily when they come at you one at a time.

That's getting into some pretty big DM leeway territory though.

[Ruethgar]

At levels before wyrmling status is attained, dragons are considered hatchlings (age category 0).

The alternate form would have to be obtained elsewhere as I stated previously, but if you could pull it off it would be pretty powerful and thematically appropriate for a were-dragon.

Edit: If you just wanted the look instead of actually being a Dragon, you could be a Hengeyokai Crane with the Draconic class levels bought off and just fluff the feathers away for scales. Then you would have your class levels intact to focus on being a good monk.

[Metahuman1]

Don't have the 3rd party supplements, so, that's probably not a viable option for me.

What book are Steel Dragons in so that I can give them a look over?




And the idea originally went like this.

My Buddy:

"So, this Monkish character of mine was being built to start as a guy that solves all his problems with his fists, and eventually achives enlightment and ascends to become a true dragon.

What we ended up doing with him was making him a weredragon."

...

"Hmmm, say, is there like a Weredragon in this edition we could use if we do this?"

Me: "Well, let me look into that and get back to you."

My Buddy: "Ok."





Upon looking into it I found an old post were it was mentioned that the 3.5 update to the AD&D Weredragon was the Song Dragon. That said, I'm looking for a dragon who can quite easily assume a humanoid or hell, I'll settle for a monstrous humanoid form, and stay there as long as desired, and then assume there dragon form. And who, form there, can be built to be a very effective unarmed combatant who only get's more effective at it when they change shape.


If a steel dragon can do that, It's at least worth a look.



Also, MMI is Monster Manual 1, correct? And if so, what book would that feat be in, and were would I be able to get at will alternate form outside of some dragon progression?

[Ruethgar]

All of what I've mentioned has been official WotC content, though Dragon is often disregarded. Oriental Adventures has the Hengeyokai and Races of the Dragon has the Draconic template class. If you wanted to be more powerful in alternate form, technically by taking all of the Draconic class and becoming a Half-Dragon you are a version of a true dragon according to Races of the Dragon and can still qualify for Half-Dragon form from Dragons of Eberron. The sorcerer level requirement is a bit of a hit to your melee combat, but the Loredrake archetype could lessen it and if you really wanted to gimp the sorcerer ability Stalwart and Battle sorcerer could keep your BaB and HP going high. The humanoid form would have to be fluffed as non-draconic despite your half dragon template, but that's all cosmetic anyway.

Edit: Also note that no dragon monster class progression give you at will Alternate Form. I'm fairly sure they are perpetual until dismissed, but only 3/day at most from the classes. By taking the full brunt of LA and racial HD from a Tome dragon(+5 and 3RHD), you could get at will alternate form.

After some searching I am only finding Hengeyokai and Tibbit for alternate form and the Hengeyokai has the choice to be a descendant of a dinosaur as your alternate form(bird) so I thought it fit better. You could also take lycanthropy Dienonychus or Velociraptor(Clawfoot from Eberron) and a dragonblooded race to gain access to the feats Dragon Wings and Improved Dragon Wings which you keep while transformed as they are not a function of race. It wouldn't be an actual dragon but it would look close.

[(Un)Inspired]

Don't have the 3rd party supplements, so, that's probably not a viable option for me.

What book are Steel Dragons in so that I can give them a look over?




And the idea originally went like this.

My Buddy:

"So, this Monkish character of mine was being built to start as a guy that solves all his problems with his fists, and eventually achives enlightment and ascends to become a true dragon.

What we ended up doing with him was making him a weredragon."

...

"Hmmm, say, is there like a Weredragon in this edition we could use if we do this?"

Me: "Well, let me look into that and get back to you."

My Buddy: "Ok."





Upon looking into it I found an old post were it was mentioned that the 3.5 update to the AD&D Weredragon was the Song Dragon. That said, I'm looking for a dragon who can quite easily assume a humanoid or hell, I'll settle for a monstrous humanoid form, and stay there as long as desired, and then assume there dragon form. And who, form there, can be built to be a very effective unarmed combatant who only get's more effective at it when they change shape.


If a steel dragon can do that, It's at least worth a look.



Also, MMI is Monster Manual 1, correct? And if so, what book would that feat be in, and were would I be able to get at will alternate form outside of some dragon progression?

I think the dragon born ritual might fit really well with what your buddy is looking for. If you divorce the bahamut fluff from it or if he's interested in achieving enlightenment as defined by the Big B then you have a spiritual warrior who becomes more draconic after a ritual proving his devotion that become better at fighting with 0 LA.

[Ruethgar]

Of course there is one option not yet mentioned that fits perfectly fluff-wise with what your friend wants, but it is not a great option. That is the Dragon Disciple which has the capstone of the Half-Dragon template.

[ILM]

That said, I'm looking for a dragon who can quite easily assume a humanoid or hell, I'll settle for a monstrous humanoid form, and stay there as long as desired, and then assume there dragon form.
Look at the Gold dragon, right there in the srd. As far as the shapeshifting goes, you're covered.

[Taveena]

Steel dragon has a very small LA, is known for assuming humanoid forms, and with the Loredrake template, has 3/4 Sorceror casting for its four (already potent) Dragon HD. (If he'd prefer a prepared caster, then apply Spellhoarding in addition.)

[Ruethgar]

Here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040328a) is the steel dragon online, it can also be found in Dragons of Faerun. It has 2 LA for Wyrmling which is very low for a dragon. Do note that the Steel Dragon is not a True Dragon and falls into a group of greater dragons along with the Hex, Tome, Purple, Yellow, and Orange. This means they can't gain the Half-Dragon Form feat or any of the True Dragon psychosis such as the aforementioned Spellhaording, they can still take Sovereign Archetypes as they are only limited by the dragon type not the true dragon label.

[Urpriest]

The Steel Dragon is from Dragons of Faerun. But in general, if you want to be a character who eventually turns into a dragon then that entails a completely different build. For a Monk-type, I'd suggest a psionic monk (using a dip in Monk and a class like Ardent with the Tashalatora feat) that eventually picks up the Metamorphosis power to turn into a dragon, though a Wildshaping character who picks up Dragon Wild Shape (Draconomicon) would also work. For the psionic route, Diamond Dragon (Dragon Magic) is pretty flavorful.

[Metahuman1]

I pitched building a Sorcerer or Wizard at him who just picks up some unarmed strike feats and pumps his Con into orbit and loads up on buffs to make himself survive, hit and do damage and just getting a spell off the polymorph line to become a dragon, and I also pitched a Druid with a couple of levels of swordsage at him who picks up Draconic Wildshape.




He's willing to think about it, but he's not sold on them having the right feel.


Outside of that, I'd love to do a Tash build with maybe a swordsage dip or something for some martial maneuvers, but, Psionics are banned in this game. The Dm's reasoning for it was, however acceptable. Namely, he's playing with a lot more books then normal, which means keeping track of a lot of new and relatively unfamiliar magic items, spells, feats, class's, monsters, and at least one other new subsystem (Tome of Battle, which 3 people are using and 2 more are seriously looking at picking up use of in another level or two, as well as one major recurring NPC that we know of using it.), and he's not familiar with and doesn't personally own the Psionics books, so he's not up for trying to learn it right now, and run the game with this much new content on top of that.

That's a reasonable position to take for right now, so, I'm not gonna argue the matter with him. Even if it would help this cohort set up.



That said, I'm, not seeing the steel dragon's LA entry.

[Ruethgar]

The LA is only in Dragons of Faerun. Wyrmling +2, Very Young +3, Young +4, Juvenile +4.


Steel Dragon

Racial Traits

Dragon Type: Dragons are immune to effects that only affect humanoids, such as charm person. This is a boon to any dragon who travels with humanoids.
Small: As small creatures wyrmling steel dragons have +1 AC and attack due to size.
Steel Dragon land speed is 30ft and a Swim speed of 30ft.
Keen Senses: A dragon can see four times as well as a human in shadowy illumination and twice as well in normal light. It also has darkvision and can see in the dark up to 120ft.
Immunities: All dragons are immune to sleep and paralysis effects.
Poison Resistance: +10 Fortitude saves vs. Poison
Age Category: Until you reach Wyrmling you are considered age category 0, Hatchling.
Languages: Draconic. Bonus Languages Any(other than secret languages such as Druidic).
Favored Class: Dragon. A dragon cannot multiclass into another dragon class. Once the progression of a new age category has begun, you cannot multiclass until it is complete.



GAME RULE INFORMATION
Steel Dragons have the following game statistics.
Abilities: A brief description of what ability scores are important to your class.
Hit Die: d12
Starting Age: 1d6-1
Starting Gold: As Aristocrat

Class Skills
The Steel Dragon's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are...

Bluff(Cha), Concentration(Con), Craft(Int), Diplomacy(Cha), Disguise(Cha), Escape Artist(Dex), Intimidate(Cha), Knowledge(Int), Listen(Wis), Profession(Wis), Search(Wis), Spot(Wis), Sense Motive(Cha), Use Magic Device(Cha)

Skill Points at First Level: (6 + Int modifier) x 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier

Steel Dragon


Level
Hit Dice
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Special


1st
1d12

+1

+2

+2

+2
Bite 1d6, 2 Claws 1d4


2nd
2d12

+2

+3

+3

+3
+1 Natural Armor, +2 Cha


3rd
3d12

+3

+3

+3

+3
Fly 100ft average


4th
3d12

+3

+3

+3

+3
Speed 40ft, +1 Natural Armor, +2 Con


5th
4d12

+4

+4

+4

+4
Blindesense, Fly 150ft average, Acid Breath 1d6, SR 16


6th
4d12

+4

+4

+4

+4
Wyrmling, Speed 60ft, +1 Natural Armor, Polymorph 5/day, Spells(1st), Poison Breath


7th
5d12

+5

+4

+4

+4
+1 Natural Armor, +2 Str


8th
6d12

+6

+5

+5

+5
+1 Natural Armor, SR 18, Spells(2nd)


9th
7d12

+7

+5

+5

+5
+1 Natural Armor, +2 Int, Acid Breath 2d6


10th
7d12

+7

+5

+5

+5
Very Young, Minor Arcane Shield, +2 Wis, Spells(3rd)


11th
8d12

+8

+6

+6

+6
+1 Natural Armor, +2 Str


12th
9d12

+9

+6

+6

+6
+1 Natural Armor, Spells(4th), SR 20, +2 Cha


13th
10d12

+10

+7

+7

+7
Fly 200ft poor, +1 Natural Armor, +2 Con, Acid Breath 3d6


14th
10d12

+10

+7

+7

+7
Young, Medium Size, Bite 1d8, 2 Claws 1d6, 2 Wings 1d6, Moderate Arcane Shield, Spells(5th), +2 Int


15th
11d12

+11

+7

+7

+7
+1 Natural Armor, +2 Str, Enthrall 1/day


16th
12d12

+12

+8

+8

+8
+1 Natural Armor, +2 Int, Spells(6th)


17th
13d12

+13

+8

+8

+8
Juvenile, +1 Natural Armor, +2 Wis, Acid Breath 4d6, Spells(7th)


18th
13d12

+13

+8

+8

+8
+1 Natural Armor, +2 Str


19th
14d12

+14

+9

+9

+9
SR 22, +2 Cha


20th
15d12

+15

+9

+9

+9
+1 Natural Armor, +2 Con



Class Features
All of the following are class features of the Steel Dragon.

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: None

Cone of Poison: Everyone within the area of this breathe weapon must succeed a Fortitude save or take 1 Con damage per age category(excluding hatchling). DC is Con based.

Draconic Heritage


Energy
Skill
Spells


None
Disguise
Alter Self, Charm Person, Suggestion



Dragon Shaman


Alignment
Skills
Adaptation
Breath


LN, LE, NE
Diplomacy, Knowledge(Local), Sense Motive
Disguise Self: You can cast disguise self at will. This change is physically not illusionary, but only alters your body not your equipment.
Line of Acid



Half-Dragon


Immunity
Breathe


+10 vs Poison
60ft Line of Acid

[Vertharrad]

Have you tried looking at Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries PrC in Draconomicon? It is monk based and has the ability to eventualy turn into a Dragon for a time. You don't even have to be lawful to take it.

[Urpriest]

Have you tried looking at Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries PrC in Draconomicon? It is monk based and has the ability to eventualy turn into a Dragon for a time. You don't even have to be lawful to take it.

Seconded. Not the strongest of PrCs, but fluffwise it's exactly what your friend described. Add in some Disciple of the Eye (Races of the Dragon) for more Dragon-Monk flavor.

[Metahuman1]

Huh, didn't know about that PrC. Upon reading it, I think I'll be bouncing the idea of just making some adjustments too it to beef it up (Something like letting it progress martial maneuver advancement and unarmed strike damage, maybe see about upgrading that shapeshifting ability a little since it IS a capstone ability for a PrC that DOES require at least feat Tax Feat to use.) off the DM, and if he's ok with it, try it on that buddy of mine.


I'll post a follow up on how that goes. =)

[atemu1234]

I second the Drag Mag 320 ones.

[Inevitability]

If the gender is a problem, that can be easily solved (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0233.html).

[Uncle Pine]

If you end up with a character that makes use of "polymorph, alternate form or a similar effect" to switch between a humanoid form and a huge bulky dragon form, you may want to look at the Strength of the True Form spell in Dragons of Eberron (page 15): 1st level sorcerer spell, immediate casting time, 1 round duration, it lets you use the highest value of natural armor, damage reduction and physical ability scores of your current and original form regardless of the form you're in. It can be easily persisted or put into a continuous magic item.

[Metahuman1]

So, An update, having spoken to the DM and the player, the player is interested in the idea of modifying the Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries PrC to help it keep pace with the party, and the DM is game for the idea as well.

I'm thinking I might beef up the Shape Change ability's uses per day when it get's unlocked at the Capstone, make it progress unarmed damage normally, and maybe make it advance maneuvers some more, in order to have it keep up with the rest of the party, and that that should meet his needs nicely.

I'd like to Thank everyone, this has been very, very helpful. =)

[Bronk]

So, I came across what appears to be the 2nd edition update to the were dragon, the Monsters of Fearun Song Dragon. One minor fluff issue aside (Always female. If the DM approves this I know his style and he will be only to happy to change that detail for role play sake.), I need to figure out how to adjust this into a playable race, if it's even possible to do so, that can run as a competent unarmed combatant.

I found the original weredragon in Dragon 134... it looks almost the same as the song dragon except that it flew without wings and had a different breath weapon. Still needed to be female though...

[Metahuman1]

Huh. Interesting. Never realized that.