What to do with the Arcane Archer

[Orzel]

Man is that class... I don't what to say about arcane archers. It encourages you to be an warrior and arcanist at the same time, which is a bad idea. It requires a class dip in a warrior class or caster class. It wants combat 3 feats. And for what? A bunch of so-so abilities.

What should be added to the class to make it attractive? Some say spellcasting progession. Others want to be make Imbue arror less useless. And others what to grant more uses of phase, seeker, and hail of arrows. And people still want to fix/get rid of Arrow of Death .

I personally would let Imbue arrow work on touch and area spells, pool phase arrow, seeker arrow, and hail of arrows into an ability that lets them use any of them a number times equal to the class level, a grant bonus spell slots every odd level.

What do you think?

[Falrin]

Give it Increased spellcasting every even LvL.

Even if you'd lose only 1 CasterLevel most people would concider it weak.

[Ramza00]

5/10 Spellcasting advancing on every even level.

Seeker Arrow unlimited times per day, the making it a standard action (which it already is) means its balanced for you are trading lots of arrows for once decent one.

Same thing with Phase Arrow.

Hail of Arrows 1 time a day at lvl 8, 2 at lvl 9, 3 at lvl 10.

Drop the arrow of death you need a better capstone ability.

You need to modify imbue arrow so you can eventually shoot multiple arrows. 1 arrow per standard round is good for lvl 2, but eventually you need "something more" for the ability.

Perhaps instead of modifying imbue arrow which deals with area spells, give something to the duskblades arcane channeling (which work on touch spells). Allow multiple attacks to get this benefit when used together with manyshot or greater manyshot. Limit it to like spells that are equal to your arcane archer level /2 (thus up to 5th lvl spells).

[Ramza00]

Give it Increased spellcasting every even LvL.

Even if you'd lose only 1 CasterLevel most people would concider it weak.
Possibly make that 2 spellcasting levels. Almost all its abilities are useless due to the action it takes, the limited times per day, the low dcs for death arrow, or spells easily replicate them (greater magic weapon)

Regardless you may need to make it 9/10 due to the fact its full bab, d8 hp, and good fort and reflex. If you don't people would just use it not for its archery abilities, no they will just use it for its similar to the eldritch knight (though the weapon focus bow, point blank shot, and precise shot may balance the fact if it were 9/10 vs eldritch knight which requires no feats).

[Clementx]

Arcane Archer
Requirements:
Base Attack Bonus: +6
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 5 ranks, Spellcraft 5 ranks
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (longbow or shortbow)
Spells: Able to cast 1st level arcane spells

Class Features:
Hit Die: d6
Class Skills: Craft, Hide, Knowledge (arcana), Listen, Move Silently, Ride, Spellcraft, Spot, Survival, and Use Rope.
Skill Points at Each Level: 4+Int modifier
BAB: 3/4
Saves: Poor Fortitude, Good Will, Poor Reflex.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Arcane archers gain no weapon or armor proficiencies.

Enhance Arrow (Su): At 1st level, every nonmagical arrow an arcane archer nocks and lets fly become magical, gaining a +1 enhancment bonus. Unlike magic weapons created by normal means, the arcane archer need not spend experience points nor gold pieces to accomplish this task. The arrows only function for the arcane archer. At every odd level, the magic arrows she creates increase in potency (+2 at 3rd level, +3 at 5th level, +4 at 7th level, and +5 at 9th level).

Imbue Arrow (Sp): At 2nd level, an arcane archer gains the ability to place an area spell with a casting time of one standard action or less upon an arrow. When the arrow is fired, the spell's area is centered where the arrow lands, even if the spell could normally only be centered on the caster or if it is beyond the normal range limit of the spell, out to the maximum range of the bow. The Imbued Arrow must target a grid intersection (base AC 5), and if missed, follows the chart for thrown splash weapons (PHB p158). Casting the spell and firing the arrow are part of using the spell-like ability.

Spells per Day/Spells Known: +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class at 2nd level and each even level afterwards.

Enchant Arrow (Su): At 3rd level, an arcane archer can enchant any arrow she fires with a weapon special ability in place of some of the enhancement bonus granted by her Enhance Arrow ability. This requires 15 minutes of quiet, uninterrupted concentration. The modified enchantment lasts for one hour per arcane archer level, or until she dismisses it as a standard action. When the modification ends, her arrows regain their normal enhancement bonus.

The arcane archer may modify her arrows with any one special ability that can be placed on ammunition and is a +X equivalent bonus, chosen during the ritual. She subtracts the ability's effective bonus from the enhancement bonus of her arrows, but the arrows must retain at least a +1 enhancement bonus (as for normal magic arrows). For example, a 5th level arcane archer that normally fires +3 arrows may instead select +1 flaming burst arrows or +2 shocking arrows (both +3 equivalent arrows) selected during her ritual. The arcane archer must meet the caster level, spell, and other requirements specified by the special ability, although she does not need Craft Magic Arms and Armor, and unlike magic weapons created by normal means, she need not spend experience points or gold pieces to accomplish this task. Spells required for crafting the special ability are expended as if cast during the ritual as normal for crafting.

At 7th level, the arcane archer may enchant her arrows with two enchantments, under the same requirements as above.


That's my version. It gives you half-casting, no stupid SLAs once a day, and lets you customize your arrows in a way that works in 3.5. Oh, yeah, no stupid elf-only clause. It is still a light-arcanist class, but at least it helps you get some spells you want to Imbue.

[RandomNPC]

all i know is the build is already legit. i don't know the exact setup.

a player in one of my games basically says "i shoot it" and if he doesn't kill it it generally dies before his next turn. my party beleives in swat team tactics, get in there, destroy the biggest threat first, and see if whats left wants to give up. they destroyed a large red dragon and a beholder, the partys druid was mad because he didn't get a turn. i thought it was a fair encounter for the group level. so they're getting more next time.

back to the point, the archer is on par with the rest of the group, two fighters, a sorc, a monk, and a druid.

[Bears With Lasers]

Sorry, Random. I'm guessing someone's ignoring, making up, or misreading some rules somewhere.
I can see the AA being on par with the fighters and the monk, since fighters and the monk are weak. If the sorcerer is a blaster, he should still be better if he's built right. The druid should be by far the most effective character.

[Orzel]

Clementrix: I like the idea but it doesn't work as planned. A arcane archer who gets half spell progression wont have the caster levels nor the spells to enchant anything until he hits level 8 or so in the class. Encheanting weapons is not a low level thing and with the classes BAB requirement, his caster level or BAB will stink to far to make it useful.

Ramza: Unlimited Phase and Seeker arrow sounds good. They should be speicail shots anyway.

I still think Imbue arrow should allow touch spells. AA shouch be shooting off Chill touch, Ghoul Touch, and Touch of Idiocy arrows. They should add their enhancemnt score to the DC too.

[Clementx]

Orzel, actually look at the CL and spell requirements for weapon special abilities (they get straight enhancement bonuses automatically from Enhance Arrow without CL). Of the 37 (in a row) I compiled the last time I used the class, all but Brilliant Energy were below CL13. Most are between 7 and 12. My version works just fine if you take more than the minimum caster levels (and since when should you get free arcane power without investment?!). And even if you don't want to take more than four wizard levels, two words- Practiced Spellcaster.

Is it a CoDzilla? No. Its not supposed to be. Is it tons better than the crappy original and a balanced PrC? All my players think so.

[Orzel]

Most people don't enter AA with more than 5 Caster levels. Most grab 1-3 wiz/sorc levels when they enter the class. If you made AA half casters, they'll have CL 6-8 at AArcher level 10. They wouldn't be able to switch enchantmwnts 'til well past class level 16. It'll make you want to dip in the class rather than continue.

Combine that with the fact that AA won't know/cast the spellls needed for crafting due to their low caster level.


The real problem with Enhance Arrow is that it doesn't stack with normal enhancements thus +2 bows and higher stink.

[The Prince of Cats]

I have used the arcane archer with an elven ranger/mage. It may have worked better with righter/bard, but it did the job.

Yes, it was not the best of builds. It did the job though, and quite well at that. I got some good hits in, did some nice damage. I probably would have done better as a plain ranger, especially once I got past lvl 20, but I enjoyed playing that character...

[Saph]

The Arcane Archer is one of the classes that got really nerfed in the change from 3.0 to 3.5. In D&D 3.0 arrow enhancement bonuses and bow enhancement bonuses stacked, meaning that you could fire a +3 arrow from a +3 bow and get an effective +6 enhancement bonus. In 3.5 they don't, making the Arcane Archer a complete waste of time. I don't know why they didn't upgrade it in the 3.5 change - they just forgot, I guess.

A good signature ability to give to the 3.5 arcane archer would be to give them that ability back - allow them to stack bow and arrow enhancement bonuses. That'd give Arcane Archer a cool unique ability instead of the worthless stuff they've got now.

- Saph

[Viscount Einstrauss]

The only real problem I can see with the arcane archer is that if you're going to take arcane spells anyway, why in the seven hells are you giving it up to shoot arrows? "No thank you sir, I would rather make myself as ineffective as possible." Seriously. The only time this might be a good trade that I can think of is if you were a bard first. Otherwise, you're ultimately taking a prestige class that is weaker than one of the classes you had to take just to get it.

[Clementx]

Orzel, you really aren't getting it. If you change the class, obviously you change the best class levels to go into it. The old arcane archer was a arcane-dip class because none of its abilities actually improved spellcasting at all. Mine isn't. As for the assertion of others that archery is worse than full-spellcasting, that really doesn't belong while discussing a class that combines archery and spellcasting, does it?

And actually look at the spells required for weapon enchantments. Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray, Clairvoyance...the vast majority are lvl2 or 3. Nevermind that scrolls, wands, and even other casters have always been able to provide spells for crafting.

So if you don't like half-casting classes, that is your problem. If you think that just because a drastically different original class had limitation, a new version suffers them as well, also your problem. So yeah, if you want to criticize my suggestion, come up with an objection that actually applies to it, not the DMG Arcane Archer.

[Tola]

Looking at the class....It's not meant to 'combine arcanism and spellcasting' at ALL, to me. It looks like a natural progression of a fighter-type who likes his archery. Only Imbue Arrow does anything that relates to natural spellcasting. The requirements fit as well-you only NEED an Int of 11+. If it were a combo class, the 'Arcane' requirement would be higher, I think.

Question: The spell that is placed on an Imbued Arrow....does it HAVE to be one you know? Can a usable scroll or some such thing substitute?

[Leon]

Heh, ive thought this every time ive looked the title of the topic

So here it goes

What'll we do with the Arcane Archer
What'll we do with the Arcane Archer
What'll we do with the Arcane Archer
Earl-aye in the morning?

Chorus:
Way hay and up she rises
Patent blocks o' diff'rent sizes,
Way hay and up she rises
Earl-aye in the morning

1. Sling him in the long boat till he's sober,
2. Keep him there and make 'im bale 'er.
3. Pull out the plug and wet him all over,
4. Take 'im and shake 'im, try an' wake 'im.
5. Trice him up in a runnin' bowline.
6. Give 'im a taste of the bosun's rope-end.
7. Give 'im a dose of salt and water.
8. Stick on 'is back a mustard plaster.
9. Shave his belly with a rusty razor.
10. Send him up the crow's nest till he falls down,
11. Tie him to the taffrail when she's yardarm under,
12. Put him in the scuppers with a hose-pipe on him.
13. Soak 'im in oil till he sprouts flippers.
14. Put him in the guard room till he's sober.
15. Put him in bed with the captain's daughter.
16. Take the Baby and call it Bo'sun.
17. Turn him over and drive him windward.
18. Put him in the scuffs until the horse bites on him.
19. Heave him by the leg and with a rung console him.
20. That's What'll we do with the Arcane Archer

[Orzel]

Orzel, you really aren't getting it. If you change the class, obviously you change the best class levels to go into it. The old arcane archer was a arcane-dip class because none of its abilities actually improved spellcasting at all. Mine isn't. As for the assertion of others that archery is worse than full-spellcasting, that really doesn't belong while discussing a class that combines archery and spellcasting, does it?

And actually look at the spells required for weapon enchantments. Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray, Clairvoyance...the vast majority are lvl2 or 3. Nevermind that scrolls, wands, and even other casters have always been able to provide spells for crafting.

So if you don't like half-casting classes, that is your problem. If you think that just because a drastically different original class had limitation, a new version suffers them as well, also your problem. So yeah, if you want to criticize my suggestion, come up with an objection that actually applies to it, not the DMG Arcane Archer.


The problem is most weapon enhancements require 7 or higher caster levels and 3rd level or higher spells. Most AA build only dip into casters because the BAB requirement is soo High that a caster can't met it at a decent level alone.

Lots of AAs have 3-5 warrior class levels and 1-4 caster levels. Getting 3rd level spells requires a minimum of 5 level of a caster. This will get you only a BAB of 2 or 3. Then you have to take 3-5 levels of a Full BAB class. In order to get 3rd level spells and qualify, you have to be at the 7 or 8 level before you take the class. If you made AA's half casters, you would still be near 10th level before the infamous fireball arrow.

Like Saph saed, Arcane Archer where awesome in 3.0. There were 2 reasons. The Bonuses stacks and DR was enhancement based. A archer PC could grab 4-6 levels of fighter/ranger/paladin and 1-3 level of wizard/s orc/bard then kick butt with a cheap +1 fiery bow. You never had to use +2-5 bows to break DR and could buy TONS of utility items to negate weapon user flaws with the money you save on weapons. The bonus should be an unamed or racial bonus now so it could stack again.

[Lolzords]

Does sound a quite good class, I was thinking of making one of my rangers an arcane archer. The downside is that I'd have to waste a level taking a level in wizard or sorcerer before I can become one.

[Jasdoif]

Change Enhance Arrow so it provides a typeless bonus. Then it will stack with the bow or arrow's enhancement bonus.

[Clementx]

Question: The spell that is placed on an Imbued Arrow....does it HAVE to be one you know? Can a usable scroll or some such thing substitute?
When DnD talks about casting a spell, it usually means actually using a spell slot yourself. The times when you can use an item to provide it, it is explicitly called out. Nothing in the ability says you can, so you can't. Even if you wanted to, good luck firing a bow while holding the scroll/wand in your third hand.

And once again, Orzel, you are telling me what people do when they take the DMG Arcane Archer, not my class. I purposely designed it to require an arcane investment and reward, enough to get then slowly develop the lvl2-4 spells that are useful buffs for non-casters. You don't need to be casting Time Stop at lvl17 find use from arcane spells.

As I also said, like all crafting abilities, you can substitute scrolls and wands for actual spells, casting up to lvl4 spells quite easily to enchant your arrows. Even a low-caster with Practiced Spellcaster can use a Wand of Acid Arrow without fail, and get 150 hours of free Acidic arrows before having to buy a new one.

Jasdoif provided another wonderful suggestion if you want the default Arcane Archer that takes a casting level as an annoying hurtle before it can get kewl powerz. Just make its arrows stack like they did in 3.0. "Gee, I wanted full BAB and not to be a spellcaster" would have been a more direct path to fruitful answers.

[Jasdoif]

The biggest hurdle with Enhance Arrow granting an enhancement bonus is greater magic weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicWeaponGreater.htm). Any full Cleric/Wizard/Sorcerer can use a 3rd (Wiz/Sorc) or 4rd (Clr) spell slot or two to give a bow an enhancement bonus, which then applies to all attacks. And it doesn't even have to be the caster who's using the bow, cast it on the fighter's bow. Heck, cast it on rogue's bow too! And the ranger and....

You get the idea. A single full caster can grant the same bonus to multiple people, and still has all the other nifty spells available. And due to the BAB requirements on Arcane Archer and the lack of base classes with both arcane casting and full BAB progression, you have to take seven levels of Arcane Archer before you're consistently ahead on the enhancement bonus.

Making the bonus typeless would help somewhat...but even then, would the other abilities have situations that come up often enough to make it a worthwhile class overall?

Honestly, making it a half-progression class isn't the way to go, the prereqs will make your save DCs and CL so low that Imbue Arrow is going to be next to useless. Instead, consider giving the class a separate spell progression, like assassin or blackguard has. Then you can add useful abilities related to the casting, like allowing them to cast in light armor without the spell failure chance.

Also.

As I also said, like all crafting abilities, you can substitute scrolls and wands for actual spells, casting up to lvl4 spells quite easily to enchant your arrows. Even a low-caster with Practiced Spellcaster can use a Wand of Acid Arrow without fail, and get 150 hours of free Acidic arrows before having to buy a new one. You don't even need the feat, a single level in wizard or sorcerer (or any other class with acid arrow on its spell list) is all it takes to use a wand without fail.

[Cthulhu]

Arcane Archer
Requirements:
Base Attack Bonus: +6
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 5 ranks, Spellcraft 5 ranks
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (longbow or shortbow)
Spells: Able to cast 1st level arcane spells

Class Features:
Hit Die: d6
Class Skills: Craft, Hide, Knowledge (arcana), Listen, Move Silently, Ride, Spellcraft, Spot, Survival, and Use Rope.
Skill Points at Each Level: 4+Int modifier
BAB: 3/4
Saves: Poor Fortitude, Good Will, Poor Reflex.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Arcane archers gain no weapon or armor proficiencies.

<snip>

Spells per Day/Spells Known: +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class at 2nd level and each even level afterwards.

<snip>



Serious critique - this class either needs better spellcasting or full BAB. Honestly, I think it can do with both. If it's supposed to shoot things with arrows, it needs full BAB to enable it to shoot thing with arrows via having iterative attacks. If it's supposed to cast spells, it just sucks, because its spell casting is so gimp.

If you compare this to the "cleric archer" you have lots of sucktitude, because you get heaps less spell casting, and less actual combat ability.

To be honest, I'd go to full BAB, 9/10 casting and d8 hit dice. I don't think that would be overpowered. Earliest entry is what, ranger/warrior/something with full bab 6, wizard 1.

Therefore at level 10, this guy is going to be ranger 6, wizard 1, arcane archer 3. With your scheme, he's going to have the spell casting of a level 2 wizards ( completely useless at level 10), and be 2 points behind a cleric casting divine power and using a bow on the bab curve?

With my scheme, he's not actually going to be much better - 1 point behind on the BAB curve, but second level spells. You could even give it FULL casting, and probably not have it overpowered vs a cleric archer.

Now, if you went 11 levels of wizard, you'd be so far behind the eight ball that your archery would be meaningless because you'd never hit anything. And you could take initiate of the seven fold veil and own hardcore instead.

For a compromise, (one or two levels of warrior to get feats and get in quicker, and wizard) you still suck because you'll be behind the 8 ball on spells you can cast.

So there is significant room for extra beef without making the class insane

Finally, dead levels are the suck, so I'd try and remove those.

So, I'd make this!

Arcane Archer, except with more awesome

Class Features:
Hit Die: d8
Class Skills: Craft, Hide, Knowledge (arcana), Listen, Move Silently, Ride, Spellcraft, Spot, Survival, and Use Rope.
Skill Points at Each Level: 4+Int modifier
BAB: 1/1
Saves: Poor Fortitude, Good Will, Good Reflex.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Arcane archers gain no weapon or armor proficiencies.

1. Enhance Arrow +1
2. Imbue Arrow / +1 Spellcasting
3. Enhance Arrow +2 / Enchant Arrow / +1 Spellcasting
4. +1 Spellcasting, Wraith strike for arrows (As a free Can burn spell slots for an extra +d6 damage per spell slot per arrow, so dropping a 3rd level spell gives an arrow an extra +3d6 damage. Only one spell slot per arrow)
5. Precision Firepower (May add int modifier to attack rolls in place of dex modified) / Enhance Arrow +3 / +1 Spellcasting
6. As an immediate action, can cast ray spells via shooting someone with an arrow. If the arrow hits all the ray spell effects are applied, and it bypasses SR / +1 Spellcasting
7. Enhance Arrow +4 / Improved Enchant Arrow / +1 Spellcasting
8. +1 Spellcasting
9. Enhance Arrow +5 / +1 Spellcasting
10. Needs some sort of capstone ability here! +1 Spellcasting

In the remaining dead levels (7-10) (possibly excluding 7) need some work. I'm

I'm pretty sure that would actually be pretty fair and balanced, despite being a butt load tougher than your version. It can be so tough because the concept of a fighter/mage is so weak! If you felt it needed some depowering, I'd remove the 2nd level of spell casting, and then kill one of the saves, but I'm pretty confident that it doesn't need anything.

He can do huge alpha strikes, but not very sustainably, and the zen archery deal reduces some MAD. Anyway, my idea aside, I think my commentry is fairly valid :)

[argentsaber]

How about Ranger 6 (for Manyshot), Assasin 1 (can cast arcane spells), then Arcane Archer? This is a full BAB Progression that easily qualifies. You could even do ranger 5/assasin 1, but you might miss manyshot. If you apply the varient class with half casting (which i use in my game) the assasin spells are still quite useful, and do not duplicate your primary arcane caster much. You will NOT be the primary caster fyi. I prefer this build with a great bow and exotic WM level 1 for close combat shot (and pretty good range).

[ken-do-nim]

What I always wanted to see from arcane archer may be a bit broken, but it'd be cool. How about combining imbue arrow with greater manyshot? The archer could shoot in 3 different directions, with a spell like stinking cloud (or even better, Evard's tentacles) sprouting up in each spot.

[martyboy74]

What happens if you use Multispell and Many Shot/

[Ramza00]

Imbue Arrow is a standard action, Greater Manyshot is a separate standard action they don't work together.