IRL Optimization: Archery

[AvatarVecna]

So, I know that D&D isn't intended to be the most realistic system, but parts of it (the mundane parts, usually) are actually attempting to remain relatively true to real life capabilities, while still allowing more capable characters to reach impossible heights and depths of skill. High level characters are capable of many things that surpass even the greatest achievements of IRL humanity by a wide margin, and they do so rather easily and often. But in real life, people don't get into the double-digit character levels. Years ago, there was an article on The Alexandrian titled "D&D: Calibrating Your Expectations" (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/587/roleplaying-games/dd-calibrating-your-expectations-2), which I've found to be a helpful guide for understanding a character's relative power. The author makes a strong argument that the basic assumptions of the system show that most people never get past 1st level, and that 6th level characters are officially reaching super-human levels of capability.

This is the first in what I hope to make a series of char-op challenges: IRL Optimization. The focus of this particular thread is archery: can we build a character using real-life limitations and still reach, or even exceed real life records? Pleae remember, these challenges are about turning real-world records into a set of actions that make sense within the ruleset of D&D; it's not going to be a perfect simulation of any real-world person's accomplishments, because D&D isn't a perfect simulation. Just have fun trying to meet the challenges, okay everyone?

The Challenge
--The goal here is to craft a build with as few levels as possible that meets or exceeds real-life capabilities while avoiding any mechanical options that aren't arguably available in real life (as outlined in the "Limitations" section). I'm willing to be flexible on the limitations, but you have to provide a logical argument that shows how an element considered unrealistic is actually present in real life in some capacity. As a reference, we will be using the rules for archery contests presented on pg 132 of Complete Warrior.

Limitations
--Builds must be based on D&D 3.5e.
--All first party material is allowed (although builds making heavy use of splatbook and/or Dragon Magazine content will be considered inferior to similar builds with similar capabilities that are closer to being pure Core).
--Minimum ECL 1, maximum ECL 6.
--Race must be "Human".
--All builds must use the Elite attribute array.
--Avoid using magic, psionics, binding, truenaming, or any other unrealistic sub-system.
--Use standard WBL for your builds ECL.
--No magic items of any kind.

Records
Hitting a target isn't anything to brag about for world-class archers, although it's still the most integral part of setting these records. How many bullseyes can you get? How many arrows can you split? How far can shoot? How fast can you shoot? These things can be measured, and records can be made...and broken. Accuracy will be important for all three of these challenges, but only in the sense that anybody can let loose a ton of arrows and shoot it as far as possible if they're not even trying to hit anything in particular. No, accuracy counts for something even in the non-accuracy challenges; while completing the challenges criteria is each builds primary goal, the best build is the one that fulfills the criteria while having the highest average accuracy.

Accuracy

1st Place Player: ...
Their Build: ...
Capabilities: ...

2nd Place Player: ...
Their Build: ...
Capabilities: ...

3rd Place Player: ...
Their Build: ...
Capabilities: ...



Distance

1st Place Player: Greenish
Their Build: Build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18593798&postcount=2)
Capabilities: TAB +0 at 690 ft. Odds of hitting: 75%.

2nd Place Player: ...
Their Build: ...
Capabilities: ...

3rd Place Player: ...
Their Build: ...
Capabilities: ...



Speed

1st Place Player: ...
Their Build: ...
Capabilities: ...

2nd Place Player: ...
Their Build: ...
Capabilities: ...

3rd Place Player: ...
Their Build: ...
Capabilities: ...During their Archery special, the Mythbusters tested whether or not one could shoot an arrow in such a way that it split another arrow cleanly down the shaft. They concluded that the level of accuracy required and the forces involved would make such a deed "impossible". The archery contest rules in Complete Warrior provide a target number for this "impossible" task, so this test is really simple.

For a build to conquer the accuracy challenge, the build must...
--Be capable (dependably or not) of hitting a target with AC 35 (without depending on natural 20s).This is the section where, in my search for the true world record, I come across conflicting accounts; ultimately, I have decided to use Matt Stutzman as my basis for comparison, as each other record has either inferior marksmanship or is less than reputable.

Peter Terry (http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/mens-archery-farthest-accurate-distance): Peter Terry holds the official record for the farthest accurate archery shot, which he set in 2005; at a distance of 656 ft, he hit a standard FITA target (122 cm diameter) 2 times with 6 shots. This record is recognized by GWR, and is thus a legitimate record.

Matt Stutzman (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N07x9Z6VPW4): At 1:14 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N07x9Z6VPW4&feature=youtu.be&t=1m14s), he aimed for a standard FITA target (122 cm diameter) 690 ft away (http://youtu.be/N07x9Z6VPW4?t=51s); the first three shots missed, with the fourth shot hitting. Unlike Peter Terry, this record was not recorded on GWR's website; it's possible that this is intentional, and that something about Matt's bow or harness wasn't considered standard enough to set a GWR. However, given that multiple professional-grade videos and articles discuss Matt having broken the record, and that Matt went on to represent the United States in the Paralympics, I have a feeling that his record is legitimate.

Jeremy Sickles (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCOn2HkJJt8): In this video, Jeremy shoots at a target 720 ft away; I was unable to see the results of the first and fourth shots, but the way they talk indicates that they missed; the second shot hits the target within the target circles, while the third shot hits the target, but not within the circles; I'm gonna call it one hit out of four shots. However, unlike with Matt Stutzman, I can't find any video or article other than the video I've already provided that shows Jeremy making such a shot; furthermore, this accomplishment was not overseen by a GWR representative, and so there is no guarantee that the distance, the target, the bow, or the arrows are standard enough to qualify for a GWR. Thus, while I have no doubt of Jeremy's skill with a bow, I can't in good faith proclaim it the world record for the purposes of this contest.

Matt (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Et23I9zneqk): Another Matt, but this one has arms and is claiming to have made a 900 ft shot. When attempting his 900 ft shot, he took two shots to successfully hit his target. Once again, without a representative present to oversee and measure the variables, the distance, target, bow, and arrows are suspect, and thus I can't in good faith proclaim this the world record for our purposes.

For a build to conquer the distance challenge, the build must...
--Be capable of hitting a target with AC 6 from at least 690 ft away with semi-dependable accuracy.In this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zGnxeSbb3g&feature), Lars Andersen demonstrates a style of archery focused on firing as many arrows as possible as quickly as possible. While the video is well-made, there are some logical inconsistencies that must be addressed in order to have D&D archers and Lars Andersen operating on the same playing field. Lars gives several demonstrations, each of which will be thoroughly analyzed: the Legolas comparison, the standing 10-arrow volley, the moving 9-arrow volley, the standing 3-arrow quick-volley, the chainmail assault, the leaping 3-arrow quick-volley, and the backward-running 3-arrow quick-volley. Each one possesses clues as to the style's slightly exaggerated capabilities...not to say that this style isn't amazingly effective, merely not as ultimately, reality-defyingly superior as the video makes it out to be.

Legolas Comparison

Here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zGnxeSbb3g&feature=youtu.be&t=47s), two clips are shown next to each other: one shows Legolas (as depicted in LotR) firing at his fastest, the other shows Lars Andersen doing the same. The basic assumption this scene shows is that, in the same amount of time, Legolas fires 6 arrows, while Lars fires 7. However, these are not the only differences in these scenes. Firstly, Legolas is drawing each arrow straight from the quiver, while Lars keeps his arrows in hand; according to Lars, this is one of the techniques that allows him to shoot so much faster than archers who draw each arrow from the quiver. Secondly, the targets are different: while Lars is targeting immobile, thin wooden boards, Legolas is targeting moving, battle-bred orcs decked head to toe in thick armor, so his shots are reasonably harder to make. Thirdly, after firing his fourth shot, Legolas takes some extra time to aim at a passing orc, making that orc his fifth target. While none of this necessarily means that Legolas is faster (he isn't), I imagine he'd do much better if he, like Anderson, was targeting objects instead of hostile enemies. But I digress...

Standing 10-Arrow Volley

Here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zGnxeSbb3g&feature=youtu.be&t=1m3s), Lars Andersen demonstrates speed over a fairly large number of arrows, firing 10 arrows in 4.9 seconds; quite impressive. However, Lars starts with all of his arrows drawn and prepared for firing; to maintain a sense of fair play, we would need to see how Lars could perform when he has to draw the arrows before firing. Also, it needs to be mentioned that his target in this case is a 12 inch diameter circle within point blank range. While 12 inches is on the small side of Tiny and on the large side of Diminutive, and a 12 inch Tiny creature/object is just as statistically unlikely as a 12 inch Diminutive creature/object, I'll just act as if it was undeniably Diminutive, making this still target's AC 9.

Moving 9-Arrow Volley

Here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zGnxeSbb3g&feature=youtu.be&t=1m32s), Lars draws 9 arrows before walking down a line firing them at targets. Since it doesn't get timed in the video, I've timed it myself: from the split second he actually draws his 9 arrows (not when he touches them, but when he actually draws them) to the split second the last one hits its target, a total of 7.6 seconds have elapsed (I have rounded it for simplification, but that's the time it took). To be fair to Lars, however, he does pause briefly between notching his first arrow and firing it, so let's ignore that time; instead, let's see how long it takes for him to draw the arrows and notch the first one, since the rest of it would be included in his Standing 10-Arrow Volley (which we already have a time for). For consistencies sake, I'll also record the time spanning between the first arrow being fired and the ninth arrow hitting it's target.

It takes Lars Anderson .9 seconds to fully draw his handful of arrows. It takes Lars Anderson 5.8 seconds to fire 9 arrows while walking. Since we know that he fired 10 arrows in 4.9 seconds while standing still, we'll ignore the walk-shooting time and focus on what's important: the time it would take Lars Anderson to draw 10 arrows and fire them while standing still is 5.8 seconds, give or take a few hundredths. We'll come back to this later.

Standing 3-Arrow Quick-Volley and Chainmail Assault

These two demonstrations are important for how they compare to one another, as they reveal some things about Lars' archery style. First, let's see the Quick-Volley.

Here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zGnxeSbb3g&feature=youtu.be&t=2m10s), Lars shows great speed over a small number of arrows, firing 3 arrows in a mind-blowing 1.5 seconds at what appears to be some kind of spinning wooden contraption (note: I am not the most mechanically inclined person, so please bear with me). In my previous observations, I thought he was firing his arrows and penetrating the thin wood...but no, he's actually targeting and hitting the circles of black material in front of the wood. While I can't be entirely certain, I'd wager that the black circles are made of the same materials most archery targets are made of: namely, some kind of cotton or foam-based material designed to be easy for an arrow to deeply penetrate, so that a person could see how accurately they shot. Therefore, Lars Andersen targeted an easy-to-penetrate material at point blank range and fired 3 arrows in 1.5 seconds.

Now let's see the Chainmail Assault.

Here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zGnxeSbb3g&feature=youtu.be&t=3m41s), Lars has a similar set-up and demonstration to the Quick-Volley, with the only obvious difference being that now, instead of the spinning wooden contraption covered in archery targets, now there's a stand covered in chainmail armor. What's interesting to note is that, this time, Lars fires the 3 arrows in 3 seconds; that's twice as long as it took him to do so in the previous demonstration. Seeing as only a single variable has changed in the set-up (the material beng fired at), I hypothesize that the change in time is related to the change in material.

It seems incredibly unlikely that arrows would travel noticeably slower through metal than archery targets, and the distances are too similar for that to make much of a difference in the time elapsed. That means the only possible source of the change in time is in how Lars fired the arrows. Seeing as the the target in both demonstrations is 15-20 ft away, it seems unlikely that Lars is using that additional time because he's trying to aim; I find it far more likely that the extra time is the time it would take Lars to draw the bow further than in his previous demonstration; the farther draw would put more power behind the arrow, making it more likely to penetrate the presumably tougher material.

Thus, it would appear that, in order to put enough power behind the arrow to penetrate armor, Lars fires roughly half as fast as normal. Note that this should have no effect on the amount of time it would take him to draw his arrows and notch one. Seeing as the "must penetrate thick armor" note is one adventurers can't afford to ignore, making this level of draw a requirement for the challenge doesn't strike me as unreasonable. By combining these two rulings, we see that it would take Lars 10.7 to draw and fire 10 arrows with that level of armor-piercing, penetrating power behind them. Simplifying things a bit, that means it would take 5.35 seconds for Lars to draw and fire 5 arrows without sacrificing damage; simplifying further, we can round up to 6 seconds, or one round.

Keep in mind that this "5 arrows per full round action" is a rate of fire that Lars can maintain constantly without sacrificing damage output; it's also a rate of fire that D&D characters of low level will definitely struggle to match.

Leaping 3-Arrow Quick-Volley

Here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zGnxeSbb3g&feature=youtu.be&t=4m20s), the narrator insists that Lars fired three arrows mid-jump, taking a total time of less than 1 second. While it seems as believable as anything else in this video when watched at full speed, slowing it down reveals that only one arrow was actually notched and fired mid-jump: the first arrow is loosed as he takes his last step on the raised platform; the second arrow is notched at the same time, and is fired at the height of the jump; the third arrow is notched at that time, being fired just before Lars hits the floor mat. That being said, all three arrows are indeed fired within a single second from beginning to end (at least, as far as my ability to operate a stopwatch indicates), with Lars in motion the entire time. However, Lars' target in this scene is either the green tarp hanging from the beam, or it's off-screen and is therefore of unknown size and AC. Without knowing for sure, we have to use the next scene for the moving speed run.

Backwards-Running 3-Arrow Quick-Volley

Here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zGnxeSbb3g&feature=youtu.be&t=4m35s), Lars moves backwards while firing and hitting 3 12 inch diameter hurled discs. Due to their Diminutive size (see above, under "Caving in to Pressure") and their movement, their AC is 14. Targeting and hitting these 3 discs takes Lars 1.12 seconds; if we double it to give those arrows a decent level of armor-penetrating power, and add in the time it would take to draw the arrows, that makes this a 3.14 second endevour (for the purposes of D&D rounds). Add in the fact that he's moving (which would require his move action), and assuming that the attacks were accomplished in his standard action, that's one full round to target the three discs.

For a build to conquer the speed challenge, the build must...
--Within point blank range, dependably hit a target with AC 9 more than 4 times in a single round; movement is not necessary.
--Within point blank range, dependably hit a target with AC 14 more than 2 times in a single round; movement is necessary.
So...who's up to the challenge?

[Greenish]

Distance is probably the easiest to crack.

Level 1 human fighter, feats: Point-blank Shot, Far Shot, Weapon Focus (Longbow). Put 15 in Dex, use Swiftwing arrows (RoW).

Total attack bonus +4, target at 690 ft. means within 5 range increments for -5 penalty, so hits with a 6 or better (75% accuracy).

[LudicSavant]

Interesting challenge!

I feel like the speed requirement for the challenge may be too low to represent the skill levels of real elite archers. This can be demonstrated by the very links you provided. For instance, Lars Andersen is able to hit three thrown Diminutive targets in about one second while moving, yet your requirement for six seconds is merely to hit 3 targets of AC 12; the requirements for both the AC and number of targets are too low. Also, the statement that he is "drawing the bow weakly" is strange... that draw is sufficient for that range.

[AvatarVecna]

Why is the speed requirement so low? Even Lars Andersen is faster than that in the video links provided.

To summarize, it's because D&D archers can't speed-nova in the same way that Lars can, nor should they, because it would be a stupid thing for a combat archer to excel at.

Lars' speed-shooting technique revolves around holding the arrows in hand, instinctive notching, and intentionally under-drawing the bow to save time. This technique, while very purely fast, results in severely reduced accuracy and penetration power, especially so at farther ranges.

That said, even Lars has his limits. He can only hold so many arrows in hand while shooting; while I have visual proof that Lars can fire 10 arrows in 5 seconds, I doubt he could fire 20 arrows in 10 seconds (since he would have to hold 20 arrows in hand at once to do such a thing). Because he can't hold too many arrows at once (I imagine ~10 or so is his limit), he'd have to draw more arrows, which would decrease his arrows-per-second ratio if he continued shooting past the original 10 arrows he had in hand. The act of drawing another 10 arrows would, in my mind, add about an extra second. Thus, Lars takes 6 seconds to fire 10 arrows and draw their replacements (one round).

That said, Lars is a show-archer, not a combat archer. Anyone with even a lick of sense can tell that his accuracy beyond point blank range would be laughable at best if he insisted on using this technique. But there's more: this very video shows that his full quick-shooting technique actually reduces the arrow's penetration power. "But AV," you cry out, "at one point, he showed the opposite by shooting through chainmail!" Yes, he did do that...but by comparing it to another scene, we can see that the chainmail shooting is slower: in the early parts of the video, he shows that he can shoot 3 arrows in 1.5 seconds; compare that to the chainmail shooting, and you can see it takes him a full 3 seconds to shoot 3 arrows. That's half the speed, and the only other difference is that, instead of shooting wood targets, he's shooting metal armor; the only way to get the penetrating power is to draw the bow further than normal, thus slowing him down. And that's still in point blank range. Still think he's got penetrating power with his quick-shooting? Go to the part where he shoots while walking backwards; his arrows ricochet away from the discs when the hit, instead of tearing through them.

In summary, while Lars can fire 10 arrows in 5 seconds, the logistics involved prevent him from maintaining that speed over a higher number of arrows. Furthermore, we see that the only way for the arrows to have a chance of penetrating their target is if he's taking it slow by fully drawing the bow, doubling the time necessary to shoot as many arrows. Since we're making combat archers, we have to assume that our archers, using similar techniques, wouldn't sacrifice all pretense of accuracy and damage for the sake of speed.

That's why the speed record is "so low".

[LudicSavant]

Lars' speed-shooting technique revolves around holding the arrows in hand, instinctive notching, and intentionally under-drawing the bow to save time. This technique, while very purely fast, results in severely reduced accuracy and penetration power, especially so at farther ranges. He is not under-drawing the bow. That draw is appropriate for that range, and is widely reported by historical sources as the way real historical archers fought.

The "you must always full-draw" thing is the impractical modern myth, not the other way around. Kinda like the "half-swording would just cut yourself" myth or "swords were crazy heavy" myth.


To summarize, it's because D&D archers can't speed-nova in the same way that Lars can, nor should they, because it would be a stupid thing for a combat archer to excel at. Given that historical sources report that it was something that elite archers excelled at and used for practical purposes, I find your willingness to casually write this off as a "stupid thing" just as suspicious as when I hear things like "people can only deflect arrows in anime, I saw it busted on that one episode of Mythbusters that they later recanted and apologized for being wrong about," or "half-swording would just make you cut yourself."

Also, it is not just the standing-still firing speed that is suspect in your test. Lars Andersen is able to hit three thrown Diminutive targets in about one second while moving, yet your requirement for six seconds is merely to hit 3 targets of AC 12. Both the AC and number of targets seems inconsistent.

[AvatarVecna]

The speed requirement for the challenge is too low to represent the skill levels of real elite archers. This can be demonstrated by the very links you provided. For instance, Lars Andersen is able to hit three thrown Diminutive targets in about one second while moving, yet your requirement for six seconds is merely to hit 3 targets of AC 12; the requirements for both the AC and number of targets are too low. Also, the statement that he is "drawing the bow weakly" is strange... that draw is sufficient for that range.

Furthermore, I was merely using the numbers provided in Complete Warrior. The disks Lars shot (the thrown ones) are roughly 12 inches in diameter; this makes them Tiny, not Diminutive. In Complete Warrior, a Tiny target has an AC of 7 (base AC 10, size bonus +2, Dexterity mod -5 {since it's an inanimate object, it has a Dexterity of 0}); in the very same section of Complete Warrior, it says a moving target gets a +5 to AC, giving each of the thrown discs Lars shot AC 12 (7+5). Translating Lars' actions into D&D, he moved while attacking, which would generally require a full round to pull off, so submitted builds get the same time.

Also, all of Lars times are dependent on him being prepared to start and already having the arrows in hand; in reality, if he was caught off guard, it would take time to draw the arrows, which would no doubt increase the time necessary to target the three discs by at least a few seconds.

[LudicSavant]

Furthermore, I was merely using the numbers provided in Complete Warrior. The disks Lars shot (the thrown ones) are roughly 12 inches in diameter; this makes them Tiny, not Diminutive. In Complete Warrior, a Tiny target has an AC of 7 (base AC 10, size bonus +2, Dexterity mod -5 {since it's an inanimate object, it has a Dexterity of 0}); in the very same section of Complete Warrior, it says a moving target gets a +5 to AC, giving each of the thrown discs Lars shot AC 12 (7+5). Translating Lars' actions into D&D, he moved while attacking, which would generally require a full round to pull off, so submitted builds get the same time.

Also, all of Lars times are dependent on him being prepared to start and already having the arrows in hand; in reality, if he was caught off guard, it would take time to draw the arrows, which would no doubt increase the time necessary to target the three discs by at least a few seconds.

A 12 inch target generally counts as Diminutive, not Tiny.

Diminutive = 1 foot space, 6 in-1 ft height and/or length. Also, the average size of a Diminutive object is closer to that of the size of the discs as far as I can tell from approximate measurements on-screen.
Tiny = 2.5 foot space, 1 ft.-2 ft. height and/or length. While at the lowest possible end, you could say that this size could encompass a 1x1 ft target, the average size of a Tiny object is not as close to this as the average size of a Diminutive object.


Also, all of Lars times are dependent on him being prepared to start and already having the arrows in hand; in reality, if he was caught off guard, it would take time to draw the arrows, which would no doubt increase the time necessary to target the three discs by at least a few seconds. I guess I just feel like you may be extrapolating a tad liberally without providing source reference material here. I see no reference for your estimated timeframes beyond suppositions.


"But AV," you cry out, "at one point, he showed the opposite by shooting through chainmail!" Yes, he did do that...but by comparing it to another scene, we can see that the chainmail shooting is slower: in the early parts of the video, he shows that he can shoot 3 arrows in 1.5 seconds; As far as I can tell, he isn't using a full draw to shoot through the chainmail, regardless of speed. It also notes that these are using modern sport arrows, though I do not actually know how those would compare to historical military arrows.

[AvatarVecna]

He is not under-drawing the bow. That draw is appropriate for that range, and is widely reported by historical sources as the way real historical archers fought.

The "you must always full-draw" thing is the impractical modern myth, not the other way around. Kinda like the "half-swording would just cut yourself" myth or "swords were crazy heavy" myth.

Given that historical sources report that it was something that elite archers excelled at and used for practical purposes, I find your willingness to casually write this off as a "stupid thing" just as suspicious as when I hear things like "people can only deflect arrows in anime, I saw it busted on that one episode of Mythbusters that they later recanted and apologized for being wrong about," or "half-swording would just make you cut yourself."

Also, it is not just the standing-still firing speed that is suspect in your test. Lars Andersen is able to hit three thrown Diminutive targets in about one second while moving, yet your requirement for six seconds is merely to hit 3 targets of AC 12. Both the AC and number of targets seems inconsistent.

His draw is sufficient to launch an arrow in close-range ranged combat, and allows for great speed-shooting. However, the speed at which the arrows are being shot doesn't give the archer as much time to aim, reducing their accuracy. Regardless of whether the draw is appropriate to the point blank range he's currently shooting at, it still means he's not putting as much force behind the arrow as he could be, which means it has less penetrating power. Once again, it took him 1.5 seconds to quick-shoot wooden plates 3 times, and it took him 3 seconds to shoot through chainmail 3 times. Regardless of whether his lessened draw is sufficient for his current range, he increases his draw when he has to actually shoot through armor.

This method's emphasis on quick reactions and lower draw optimize the archer's shooting speed at the expense of accuracy and penetrating power; this is a wonderfully effective technique against unarmored/lightly armored foes...but use it against someone wearing armor, and the archer has to increase their draw and slow down a little, or their arrows won't penetrate the armor. I have no doubt that a similar technique has been in use throughout history, but Lars is purely optimized for speed-shooting, at the expense of accuracy and damage. That is what I find stupid about this technique: it's too fast for the archer to aim properly, it's too little draw to penetrate chainmail without slowing down, and it's virtually useless outside of point blank range.

I'm certain the "arrows in hand" technique has been in use throughout history; I'm certain the lower draw is sufficient for point blank range and increases the speed of the archer's shooting; I'm certain Lars Anderson is a fantastic archer. But this technique sacrifices accuracy and damage for pure speed. Speed-shooting with greater draw and slightly more time taken to aim would allow the old masters to still shoot amazingly fast without sacrificing accuracy or penetration power.


A 12 inch target generally counts as Diminutive, not Tiny.

Diminutive = 1 foot space, 6 in-1 ft height and/or length. Also, the average size of a Diminutive object is closer to that of the size of the discs as far as I can tell from approximate measurements on-screen.
Tiny = 2.5 foot space, 1 ft.-2 ft. height and/or length. While at the lowest possible end, you could say that this size could encompass a 1x1 ft target, the average size of a Tiny object is not as close to this as the average size of a Diminutive object.

I guess I just feel like you may be extrapolating a tad liberally without providing source reference material here. I see no reference for your estimated timeframes beyond suppositions.

As far as I can tell, he isn't using a full draw to shoot through the chainmail, regardless of speed. It also notes that these are using modern sport arrows, though I do not actually know how those would compare to historical military arrows.

You make a good point about the size differences; I'll adjust the target AC accordingly.

I guess it seems like suppositions. I still maintain that even Lars Anderson is not so awesome an archer that arrows teleport into his hand at the speed of light; he has to draw arrows at some point, and presenting him as a realistic combat archer would require him to draw arrows in between volleys. Drawing arrows takes time, and would reduce his overall arrows-per-second ratio. Furthermore, neither D&D adventurers nor modern-day civilians walk around with a composite longbow and a handful of arrows at the ready. Lars Anderson has the advantage of knowing ahead of time what's coming, which not all D&D adventurers would. Assuming that he starts his speed competition with no arrows in hand is simply a way of keeping him comparatively realistic.

Regarding the chainmail thing, I'm just going to restate my case in a slightly more logical fashion. Lars performs two 3-arrow standing volleys. The first 3-arrow standing volley demonstrates how it's possible to shoot three arrows in 1.5 seconds; this volley targets thin wooden boards roughly...20 ft away? It looks like 20 ft; regardless, it's definitely very close by. Lars shoots all three arrows within 1.5 seconds, and each one penetrates the thin wooden board with ease. The second 3-arrow standing volley was to demonstrate the penetrating power of arrows by targeting chainmail; Lars sets up the chainmail, returns to his starting position, and fires three arrows at the chainmail. To clarify: the distance between Lars and the target hasn't changed; the number of arrows used hasn't changed, the bow being used hasn't changed, the type of arrow being used hasn't changed...the only thing that's changed in the set-up is that, instead of thin wooden boards, Lars now has to shoot through metal chainmail armor.

The 3 arrows he sends at the chainmail are fired in 3 seconds; it took twice as long to shoot 3 arrows through chainmail as it did to shoot them through thin wooden boards. The arrows are taking longer to shoot; since the distance hasn't changed, the only way this makes sense is if Lars either took extra time to aim (unlikely, seeing as the target extremely close by) or he put more draw on the bow to increase its penetrating power (likely, seeing as this would increase both the time necessary to shoot the arrows and the power necessary to shoot through the armor). To test my hypothesis, I watch the two 3-arrow standing volleys back to back, paying particular attention to how far Lars is drawing his bow. Unless my vision is seriously messed up, I'm certain I saw Lars drawing the bow back further when he was shooting at the chainmail, confirming my hypothesis.

He's very clearly not fully drawing the bow to shoot through the chainmail, but he's equally clearly drawing the bow further than he did previously. And regardless of what caused the increase in time, the time still increased. It took him twice as long to fire through chainmail as it took him to fire through thin wooden boards. Armor seems like the kind of thing adventurers would be more likely to be shooting at; just because Lars doesn't have to draw the bow further doesn't mean an adventurer wouldn't draw the bow further if facing down a violent enemy.

You've given me some things to think about. If nothing else, I either need to just leave the speed challenge out, simplify it to avoid arguments like this, or provide my own much more lengthy and thorough analysis of the entire video.

EDIT: I, too, am not immediately sure of whether older-make war arrows, or modern-engineered sport arrows would have more ability to penetrate chainmail; I'll have to research that.

[AvatarVecna]

Distance is probably the easiest to crack.

Level 1 human fighter, feats: Point-blank Shot, Far Shot, Weapon Focus (Longbow). Put 15 in Dex, use Swiftwing arrows (RoW).

Total attack bonus +4, target at 690 ft. means within 5 range increments for -5 penalty, so hits with a 6 or better (75% accuracy).

Let's see...longbow, so base range of 100 ft. Far Shot makes your range increment 150 ft, Swiftwing Arrows make your penalty per increment after the firs -1 instead of -2. 690 ft is within the 5th increment, so it's 4 increments beyond the first, meaning -4 to the attack from range. Total attack bonus at 690 ft: +0. However, due to the argument about the speed challenge, I've reviewed the size rules and determined that I also made the distance target physically bigger than it should be. Thus, it is now effectively Small, and has AC 6. You haven't lost anything, but you haven't gained anything either.

Anyone else interested in attempting this challenge?

[WeaselGuy]

Are the targets considered flat-footed?

[WeaselGuy]

Limitations
--Builds must be based on D&D 3.5e.
--All first party material is allowed (although builds making heavy use of splatbook and/or Dragon Magazine content will be considered inferior to similar builds with similar capabilities that are closer to being pure Core).
--Minimum ECL 1, maximum ECL 6.
--Race must be "Human".
--All builds must use the Elite attribute array.
--Avoid using magic, psionics, binding, truenaming, or any other unrealistic sub-system.
--Use standard WBL for your builds ECL.
--No magic items of any kind.

During their Archery special, the Mythbusters tested whether or not one could shoot an arrow in such a way that it split another arrow cleanly down the shaft. They concluded that the level of accuracy required and the forces involved would make such a deed "impossible". The archery contest rules in Complete Warrior provide a target number for this "impossible" task, so this test is really simple.

For a build to conquer the accuracy challenge, the build must...
--Be capable (dependably or not) of hitting a target with AC 35 (without depending on natural 20s).
So...who's up to the challenge?

Well, I don't really know that I can hit a 35 AC without a Nat 20, by level 6. To do so would require having a +16 to hit. Right now, my Accuracy Archer looks like this:

Human (Phoenix Clan) Fighter 5/Shiba Protector 1

Str: 12
Dex: 16
Con: 11
Int: 13
Wis: 14
Cha: 10


Level
Class
BAB
Class Features
Feats


1
Fighter
+1
Bonus Feat
Iron Will, Alertness, Weapon Focus (Longbow)


2
Fighter
+2
Bonus Feat
Point Blank Shot


3
Fighter
+3
-
Combat Expertise


4
Fighter
+4
Bonus Feat
Bowslinger


5
Fighter
+5
-
-


6
Shiba Protector
+5
No Thought
?



Masterwork Longbow (+1 to hit)
Bowslinger gives +2 to hit vs Flat-Footed Targets.



A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, not yet reacting normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity.

1d20 +5(BAB) +3(Dex) +2(Wis) +2(Bowslinger) +1(WF) +1(PBS) +1(MW) = 15

Still need a Nat 20.


www.d20srd.org - PHB/DMG stuff (Fighter, most of the feats, status conditions)
Oriental Adventures - Shiba Protector
Underdark - Bowslinger

[ILM]

Well, switching your high stat to wis and taking zen archery at 6th gets you that extra +1...

[AvatarVecna]

Well, I can't find anyone asking before now if inanimate objects can be flat-footed, so I'm gonna have to get back to you on that, once I've consulted the RAW Q&A thread. For now, assume no.

Also, regarding Zen Archery: Wisdom can be increased by increasing your age category; Dexterity can't.

[WeaselGuy]

Well, I can't find anyone asking before now if inanimate objects can be flat-footed, so I'm gonna have to get back to you on that, once I've consulted the RAW Q&A thread. For now, assume no.

Also, regarding Zen Archery: Wisdom can be increased by increasing your age category; Dexterity can't.

Hey, I like that... editing my original post to reflect...

edit: actually, that still doesn't work. Even switching my Wisdom to 16, increasing it to 17 at level 4, and adding 3 to it from venerable and taking Zen Archery, then dropping Shiba Protector and taking Fighter instead to get +1 BAB, then ditching bowslinger, all of that gets me 1d20 +6(BAB) +5(Wis) +1(WF) +1(PBS) +1(MW) = 14

If I keep Shiba Protector, and do all of that, and switching my Wis and Dex scores, I reduce my BAB by 1, reduce my Dex bonus down to +0, and add in the bonus to Wis, and I get 13.

If I keep the scores that I have, and Shiba Protector, I have 1d20 +5(BAB) +1(Dex) +4(Wis) +1(WF) +1(PBS) +1(MW) = 13

Which is the same if I drop Bowslinger from my original build. Basically, the Venerable trick replaces Bowslinger. It would work if I didn't suffer the negative side effects of aging, namely the -3 to Dex. Actually, it's -6 to Dex, which lowers my non-Zen Archery builds by more.

[WeaselGuy]

Also, with regards to the Speed Challenge, 4 shots in one round is intense. 3 shots, totally doable with Rapid Shot and BAB 6.

2 shots at the same target while moving... All you need for that is the Manyshot Feat.




Prerequisites

Dex 17, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, base attack bonus +6

Benefit

As a standard action, you may fire two arrows at a single opponent within 30 feet. Both arrows use the same attack roll (with a -4 penalty) to determine success and deal damage normally (but see Special).

For every five points of base attack bonus you have above +6, you may add one additional arrow to this attack, to a maximum of four arrows at a base attack bonus of +16. However, each arrow after the second adds a cumulative -2 penalty on the attack roll (for a total penalty of -6 for three arrows and -8 for four).

Damage reduction and other resistances apply separately against each arrow fired.

Special

Regardless of the number of arrows you fire, you apply precision-based damage only once. If you score a critical hit, only the first arrow fired deals critical damage; all others deal regular damage.

A fighter may select Manyshot as one of his fighter bonus feats.

A 6th-level ranger who has chosen the archery combat style is treated as having Manyshot even if he does not have the prerequisites for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor.



So, Fighter 6 with Weapon Focus, Point Blank Shot and Rapid Fire, +1 to Dexterity at level 4.

[unbutu]

So the early conclusions would be that the best real world archers can't be replicated under lvl 5-6 ?

[WeaselGuy]

So the early conclusions would be that the best real world archers can't be replicated under lvl 5-6 ?

In the D&D 3.5 system, with the limits on Archery preseted by feats and classes, I can't figure it out. I can do either the Speed or the Accuracy challenge at level 7 or 8, or I can use cheesy dragon-mag martial monk to get any fighter feat without it's prerequisites.

[AvatarVecna]

@WeaselGuy

Firstly, the Elite array doesn't have a 16; it's got 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, and 8.

Secondly, I've made a build based on yours that gets +16 attack bonus; just letting you know that you're on the right track.

Thirdly, Martial Monk is almost certainly the cheesiest thing that would make this challenge easier: Ranged Weapon Mastery and Weapon Supremacy would make the accuracy and distance challenges all too easy, while various feats giving extra attacks could help in the speed challenge. You're right, it's awfully cheesy, and will be judged harsher than other builds with similar accomplishments but less cheese...but if no one else meets the requirements, yours would still be the best build that met the basics of the challenge.

Regarding the Speed challenge: this is as slow as I could talk myself into allowing without completely ignoring the original premise of the challenge all-together; the real-life Lars fires 10 arrows in 5 seconds (one round) with limited regard to accuracy and even less to damage. Also, the numbers provided there are the numbers to beat: you need to be able to make at least 5 attacks in 1 round without moving, and at least 3 attacks in 1 round while moving. Manyshot will probably suffice for the moving shooting at lvl 6 (assuming full BAB), but Rapid Shot on it's own only gets you three attacks as a full round action, leaving you two attacks short of the non-moving portion of the speed challenge.

@unbutu

It should be noted that Lars Andersen's technique is optimized for speed, sacrificing accuracy and damage for pure speed. His technique is undoubtedly effective IRL, but would be next to useless in a D&D-esque world (D&D archers have enough trouble damaging creatures with DR without intentionally under-drawing their bow). Ultimately, what Lars Andersen can do is something that D&D isn't designed to replicate without magic; as it is, this watered-down version of his accomplishments makes them theoretically possible in this level range...I just haven't quite figured out how.

[LudicSavant]

Lars Andersen has a new video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEG-ly9tQGk

If you thought the challenge was hard on the Fighter before based on that early video, well... yeah.

[AvatarVecna]

Lars Andersen has a new video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEG-ly9tQGk

If you thought the challenge was hard on the Fighter before based on that early video, well... yeah.Firstly, DAMN. That was awesome! Lars is amazing.

Secondly, with the exception of the speed at which Lars shoots, this is more in line with what I've always expected from D&D archery (as opposed to what is often portrayed). Lars' incredible speed is the only thing that is almost impossibly difficult to replicate within the mechanics of 3.5; interestingly enough, a decently optimized, high-level 5e bow fighter gets pretty close from what it looks like. But that's beside the point.

[Flickerdart]

It bears repeating that D&D combat is an abstraction to some extent - IIRC somewhere it's described that warriors exchange blows several times in one round and the ones they roll attack and damage for are merely the decisive ones. The same could be true for archery, where one attack roll actually describes multiple attacks (and thus one arrow doesn't actually represent one physical arrow, but just a "unit" of arrows).

[LudicSavant]

It bears repeating that D&D combat is an abstraction to some extent - IIRC somewhere it's described that warriors exchange blows several times in one round and the ones they roll attack and damage for are merely the decisive ones. The same could be true for archery, where one attack roll actually describes multiple attacks (and thus one arrow doesn't actually represent one physical arrow, but just a "unit" of arrows).

I suspect you're giving D&D too much credit. The designers were probably doing the same thing Hollywood movies did to archers without knowing what historical archers could really do. And designed the Fighter really horribly in the first place.

[Sir Chuckles]

I suspect you're giving D&D too much credit. The designers were probably doing the same thing Hollywood movies did to archers without knowing what historical archers could really do. And designed the Fighter really horribly in the first place.

You're both correct.
Flicker's statement is described in the DMG when explaining how to describe the results of dice. At the same time, yes, this is giving D&D far too credit.

...it's also a bit more difficult to justify for archery, considering that ammunition is something that is sometimes kept track of.

[AvatarVecna]

I suspect you're giving D&D too much credit. The designers were probably doing the same thing Hollywood movies did to archers without knowing what historical archers could really do. And designed the Fighter really horribly in the first place.

There's kobolds infinite-wish-looping themselves to omnipotence and commoners slaying the tarrasque. Since when has designer intention ever stopped people from letting their imaginations define the limits of this fictional games realistic limits? In any case, I think you're right about the designer's intentions, but the fact that this is, ultimately, a game of pretend that has a bunch of numbers attached, changing the numbers to represent what we want them to isn't too difficult.

Of course, all the imagination in the world can't change how mechanically terrible the fighter and monk are, but I digress...

[Chronos]

Why are we limiting ourselves to 6th level, when there's no evidence whatsoever that the best real-world humans are anywhere near that low, and plenty of evidence that they're significantly higher? Even that oft-cited Alexandrian article proves that every one of your college professors was at least 5th level, and they weren't all that extraordinary.

[Prime32]

It should be noted that Lars Andersen's technique is optimized for speed, sacrificing accuracy and damage for pure speed. His technique is undoubtedly effective IRL, but would be next to useless in a D&D-esque world (D&D archers have enough trouble damaging creatures with DR without intentionally under-drawing their bow).I'd argue it's more effective in a D&D-esque world, since there he'd have access to magic arrows that explode on contact.

[Twurps]

Let me have a go at the accuracy one:

Human(phoenix) fighter 5, shiba protector1, old age. Putting 15 in wis, and increasing it by 1 at lvl4, then ad +2 from becoming old age. total wis mod: 4

Human feat: iron will
lvl1 feat: Weapon focus
fighter 1 feat: Alertness
Fighter 2 feat: expertise
lvl3 feat: Zen Archery
fighter 4 feat: ??
level 6 feat: ??

Buy a +2 longbow.
attack: BAB+5, WF+1, Zen Archery +4, Shiba Protector+4, longbow+2 for a total of +16, meaning I hit with a 19.

Edit: Would knowlegde devotion work on a 'non creature'? As it gives 1 check per creature type per combat, I think RAW it doesn't. I have the feats to spare if it does.

[WeaselGuy]

Let me have a go at the accuracy one:

Human(phoenix) fighter 5, shiba protector1, old age. Putting 15 in wis, and increasing it by 1 at lvl4, then ad +2 from becoming old age. total wis mod: 4

Human feat: iron will
lvl1 feat: Weapon focus
fighter 1 feat: Alertness
Fighter 2 feat: expertise
lvl3 feat: Zen Archery
fighter 4 feat: ??
level 6 feat: ??

Buy a +2 longbow.
attack: BAB+5, WF+1, Zen Archery +4, Shiba Protector+4, longbow+2 for a total of +16, meaning I hit with a 19.

Edit: Would knowlegde devotion work on a 'non creature'? As it gives 1 check per creature type per combat, I think RAW it doesn't. I have the feats to spare if it does.

No magic weapons, so no +2 longbow. Best you can manage is a Masterwork, which gives +1.

[Prime32]

I'd like point out the Gnome Crossbow Sight from A&EG (150gp), which lets you treat targets as 2 range increments closer for accuracy penalties with a crossbow, as well as the Dragonbone material from Draconomicon (100gp), which increases the range increment of bows by +20ft (i.e. +200ft maximum range in normal circumstances). The composite greatbow is an exotic weapon from Complete Warrior with a range increment of 130ft; +20ft over a composite longbow.

So assuming Exotic Weapon Proficiency and Far Shot, an archer could get a maximum range of 2,250ft. If you have a way to ignore prereqs and pick up Ranged Weapon Mastery, that increases to 2,550ft. Though if you have a way to ignore all prereqs, you could just take the Distant Shot epic feat for infinite range. :smalltongue:

There's also the prodigy template (DMG2 p157), which grants a +2 bonus to an ability score and a +4 bonus to related ability checks. However it's +0 CR/+2 LA, so it's effectively NPC-only.


--Avoid using magic, psionics, binding, truenaming, or any other unrealistic sub-system.
--No magic items of any kind.
Magic I can understand, but psionics has plenty of subtle options that amount to just "focus really hard"...
A shame, because there are lots of lv1 spells that double range increments, remove range penalties, etc. And couldn't we just say that there are modern crafting techniques equivalent to the distance property?



If we can use the rule from A&EG which says that weapons' range increments are altered +/-25% for each size category then...

Venerable human (phoenix) Monk (martial monk) 1/Stoneblessed (goliath) 3/Barbarian (eagle totem, goliath RSL) 1/Shiba protector 1
Feats: 1: Zen Archery, 3: Point Blank Shot, 6: Far Shot
Bonus feats (human): Exotic Weapon Proficiency (greatbow)
Bonus feats (monk): (Improved Unarmed Strike), 1: Ranged Weapon Mastery (piercing)
Bonus feats (flaws): Alertness, Combat Expertise
Bonus feats (otyugh hole): Iron Will
Flaws: Shaky, Vulnerable
Equipment: Dragonbone composite greatbow, swiftwing arrows, otyugh hole
Maximum Range: 3,187.5ft

[Hunor]

Question, you reference Manyshot as helping with the moving challenge, but this can't be since Manyshot has a prereq of 17 Dexterity. Also, at level 6, Manyshot only gives you 2 arrows fired, not three.


@WeaselGuy

Firstly, the Elite array doesn't have a 16; it's got 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, and 8.

...Regarding the Speed challenge: this is as slow as I could talk myself into allowing without completely ignoring the original premise of the challenge all-together; the real-life Lars fires 10 arrows in 5 seconds (one round) with limited regard to accuracy and even less to damage. Also, the numbers provided there are the numbers to beat: you need to be able to make at least 5 attacks in 1 round without moving, and at least 3 attacks in 1 round while moving. Manyshot will probably suffice for the moving shooting at lvl 6 (assuming full BAB), but Rapid Shot on it's own only gets you three attacks as a full round action, leaving you two attacks short of the non-moving portion of the speed challenge.


For the Speed Challenge (with Movement), I have something like this:
Human, Level 6 Fighter:
Stats:
Str 14
Dex 16 (level for bump)
Con 13
Int 10
Wis 12
Cha 8

Feats:
1: Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus Longbow, Rapid Shot
2: Far Shot
3: Travel Devotion
4: Open
6: Woodland Archer, Open

Activate TD, move your speed as a swift action, then use Rapid Shot. 3 Attacks.
Still trying to crack the 5+ attacks without movement.

[Twurps]

No magic weapons, so no +2 longbow. Best you can manage is a Masterwork, which gives +1.

Good point. Still possible to get to 19 though:
Barring knowledge devotion (As the jury isn't in on that one):
Human(phoenix) fighter 5, shiba protector1, old age. Putting 15 in wis, and increasing it by 1 at lvl4, then ad +2 from becoming old age. total wis mod: 4

Human feat: iron will
lvl1 feat: Weapon focus
fighter 1 feat: Alertness
Fighter 2 feat: expertise
lvl3 feat: Zen Archery
fighter 4 feat:??
level 6 feat: Law devotion

Buy a masterwork longbow.
attack: BAB+5, WF+1, Zen Archery +4, Shiba Protector+4, longbow+1 Law devotion for +3 for a total of +18, meaning I hit with a 17, but only once a day.

(changes underlined)

Although I think this is within the parameters of the chalenge, I'm not to happy about the limited uses per day. I think IRL someone should be able to do it all day long. I will update if I find anything better.

[Hunor]

Human Fighter 6:
1: Quickdraw, Pointblank Shot, Rapid Shot
2: Two Weapon Fighting
3: Exotic Weapon Proficiency Hand Crossbow
4: Weapon Focus Hand Crossbow
6: Weapon Specialization Hand Crossbow, Open

Given 5 loaded hand crossbows somehow properly stored on your person for Quickdraw, You could make 3 main hand (with rapid shot) and 2 off hand (also with rapid shot) shots in one round. This is more akin to a gunslinger, but I don't see an elegant (no major cheese) way to pull off 5+ attacks with a bow by level 6.
Would have preferred ITF, but it also has a Dex req of 17.

[Flickerdart]

...it's also a bit more difficult to justify for archery, considering that ammunition is something that is sometimes kept track of.
Like I said, you can interpret "arrow" as "a unit of arrows" fairly easily.

[WeaselGuy]

Good point. Still possible to get to 19 though:
Barring knowledge devotion (As the jury isn't in on that one):
Human(phoenix) fighter 5, shiba protector1, old age. Putting 15 in wis, and increasing it by 1 at lvl4, then ad +2 from becoming old age. total wis mod: 4

Human feat: iron will
lvl1 feat: Weapon focus
fighter 1 feat: Alertness
Fighter 2 feat: expertise
lvl3 feat: Zen Archery
fighter 4 feat:??
level 6 feat: Law devotion

Buy a masterwork longbow.
attack: BAB+5, WF+1, Zen Archery +4, Shiba Protector+4, longbow+1 Law devotion for +3 for a total of +18, meaning I hit with a 17, but only once a day.

(changes underlined)

Although I think this is within the parameters of the chalenge, I'm not to happy about the limited uses per day. I think IRL someone should be able to do it all day long. I will update if I find anything better.

Well, I didn't use Law Devotion, but I tried something similar above, and unless I'm mistaken, you still have to factor in the -6 penalty to dexterity from being venerable -4 from old age... I could be wrong though, I'm not as good with tricky ranged characters as I am with stealthy ones.

edit: I actually think I am wrong, based on the wording of Zen Archery:

"The character can use her Wisdom modifier instead of her Dexterity Modifier when making a ranged attack at a target within 30 feet."

So, with that said, I'm going to edit my post to include it, and do the math, after I address the following:


Question, you reference Manyshot as helping with the moving challenge, but this can't be since Manyshot has a prereq of 17 Dexterity. Also, at level 6, Manyshot only gives you 2 arrows fired, not three.


With regards to this, I had my elite array wrong, I was still thinking you started with a 16 as a high stat, then upped it at level 4 to 17. I have since been corrected, but never corrected my post.


Well, I don't really know that I can hit a 35 AC without a Nat 20, by level 6. To do so would require having a +16 to hit. Right now, my Accuracy Archer looks like this:

Human (Phoenix Clan) Fighter 5/Shiba Protector 1

Str: 12 - 4 (Old age) = 8
Dex: 14 - 4 (Old Age) = 10
Con: 8 - 4 (Old age) = 4
Int: 13 + 2 (Old Age) = 15
Wis: 15 + 2 (Old Age) + 1 (Level 4) = 18
Cha: 10 + 2 (Old Age) = 12

Hey, he's a frail old man, what do you want?



Level
Class
BAB
Class Features
Feats


1
Fighter
+1
Bonus Feat
Iron Will, Alertness, Weapon Focus (Longbow)


2
Fighter
+2
Bonus Feat
Point Blank Shot


3
Fighter
+3
-
Combat Expertise


4
Fighter
+4
Bonus Feat
Precise Shot


5
Fighter
+5
-
-


6
Shiba Protector
+5
No Thought
Zen Archery



Masterwork Longbow (+1 to hit)
Bowslinger gives +2 to hit vs Flat-Footed Targets.



Bowslinger ruled out, disregard.

1d20 +5(BAB) +4(Wis - Zen) +4(Wis - Shiba) +1(WF) +1(PBS) +1(MW) = 16

Still need a Nat 20. Now I need a 19, confirming plausibility of hitting a 35 AC with less than a Nat 20.


www.d20srd.org - PHB/DMG stuff (Fighter, most of the feats, status conditions)
Oriental Adventures - Shiba Protector
Underdark - Bowslinger

Also, this is done completely mundane, without relying on Sacred or Profane bonuses to work.

edit: Changed my scores to the proper elite array of 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, and 8.
removed Bowslinger, to limit splatbook usage.

[Twurps]

Well, I didn't use Law Devotion, but I tried something similar above, and unless I'm mistaken, you still have to factor in the -6 penalty to dexterity from being venerable -4 from old age... I could be wrong though, I'm not as good with tricky ranged characters as I am with stealthy ones.

Zen archery Replaces dex with wis. so no need to factor in a dex penalty.

[WeaselGuy]

Zen archery Replaces dex with wis. so no need to factor in a dex penalty.

Yeah, I realized that, and edited my post to reflect that realization, along with updating my original build with better math, and was able to hit the 35 AC with a roll of 19.

[AvatarVecna]

Why are we limiting ourselves to 6th level, when there's no evidence whatsoever that the best real-world humans are anywhere near that low, and plenty of evidence that they're significantly higher? Even that oft-cited Alexandrian article proves that every one of your college professors was at least 5th level, and they weren't all that extraordinary.

The article in question insists that Einstein was 5th level; by the logic of the article, your college professors were at best 3rd level, and were more likely to be 2nd level. 5th level is where most IRL accomplishments can be duplicated fairly well by the mechanics of D&D 3.5; Lars Andersen's archery technique is the only thing I've seen that D&D has trouble replicating as it currently stands.

[Twurps]

Human Fighter 6:
1: Quickdraw, Pointblank Shot, Rapid Shot
2: Two Weapon Fighting
3: Exotic Weapon Proficiency Hand Crossbow
4: Weapon Focus Hand Crossbow
6: Weapon Specialization Hand Crossbow, Open

Given 5 loaded hand crossbows somehow properly stored on your person for Quickdraw, You could make 3 main hand (with rapid shot) and 2 off hand (also with rapid shot) shots in one round. This is more akin to a gunslinger, but I don't see an elegant (no major cheese) way to pull off 5+ attacks with a bow by level 6.
Would have preferred ITF, but it also has a Dex req of 17.

Are you sure you can use rapid shot like that. I read it as giving 1 extra attack in total, not 1 extra attack per hand.

Just to have something on the board for the speed chalange, I'm going to use magic:

Race: Human, Class: Archivist 5, with the Arrowsplit spell (Champion of ruin).
The spell turns one arrow into 1d4+1 arrows, and thus has a 25% chance of producing 5 arrows.

Works for both the 'with movement' and 'without movement' part of the chalenge as it only needs 1 attack.

[WeaselGuy]

Are you sure you can use rapid shot like that. I read it as giving 1 extra attack in total, not 1 extra attack per hand.

Just to have something on the board for the speed chalange, I'm going to use magic:

Race: Human, Class: Archivist 5, with the Arrowsplit spell (Champion of ruin).
The spell turns one arrow into 1d4+1 arrows, and thus has a 25% chance of producing 5 arrows.

Works for both the 'with movement' and 'without movement' part of the chalenge as it only needs 1 attack.

And that's why magic isn't supposed to be used for this challenge. By very definition, it twists and warps reality into a being of our own choosing, thus negating the challenge of replicating these real life feats within the confines of mundane D&D 3.5 rules.

[ILM]

Lars Andersen has a new video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEG-ly9tQGk

If you thought the challenge was hard on the Fighter before based on that early video, well... yeah.
Haha. I was like "that's just a nerd jumping around while plinking arrows" - and then he split an arrow with another mid-flight. Damn. That shut me right up :smallbiggrin:.

[Chronos]

Quoth AvatarVecna:

The article in question insists that Einstein was 5th level; by the logic of the article, your college professors were at best 3rd level, and were more likely to be 2nd level. 5th level is where most IRL accomplishments can be duplicated fairly well by the mechanics of D&D 3.5; Lars Andersen's archery technique is the only thing I've seen that D&D has trouble replicating as it currently stands.
The article says that someone so good at Knowledge checks that they can know something nobody ever knew before is 5th level. There's a word for such a person, and it's not "Einstein". It's "doctor". The way you become a PhD is literally by demonstrating knowledge that nobody has ever known before.

[Flickerdart]

Here's a thought: while the stuff Lars is doing is obviously very fancy, he's not actually in combat, he's just showing off. Would Perform (Weapon Drill) not be the more appropriate way of rendering what he's doing?

Looking at the Perform DCs, DC 20 sounds like the most appropriate - he has a "regional" reputation, in the sense that he's very popular on the Internet (geographic boundaries don't mean all that much in our day and age). The quality of his equipment compared to generic medieval variants would definitely count as Masterwork. Weapon Drill also gets a bonus equal to half your BAB and then +2 for some combat feats.

So let's say he's a 2nd level fighter with 14 Charisma. He has 5 ranks in Perform (Weapon Drill), Weapon Focus (for +2), masterwork equipment (for +2), 2 BAB (for +1). This is +10, letting him hit DC20 by taking 10, reliably.

[AvatarVecna]

The article says that someone so good at Knowledge checks that they can know something nobody ever knew before is 5th level. There's a word for such a person, and it's not "Einstein". It's "doctor". The way you become a PhD is literally by demonstrating knowledge that nobody has ever known before.

This is where the articles wording works against it: the "DC 40=Never Known Before" thing isn't RAW at all, it's just what the article's writer decided was a good cut-off point to show how difficult and rare a truly relevant, revolutionary realization is in terms of Knowledge checks. You're correct in saying that, in order to get a doctorate, you have to discover something completely new for your field of study. That doesn't mean your discovery is particularly relevant to the field...that is, while I'm sure that every single doctor's contribution to the field helps to advance their field of study, they're not revolutionizing their field on anywhere near the same level as people like Nikola Tesla, Albert Einstein, Sir Isaac Newton. That's not to say college professors and doctors aren't incredibly capable people...just that they aren't revolutionizing their field of study.

I'd place them around 3rd level or so. Assuming max ranks (+6), Int 18 (from base Int and possibly age, so +4), and Skill Focus (+3), for a total Knowledge check of +13. Unless they mentally stumble (natural 1), they can answer any incredibly easy or basic question without even trying. They can regularly succeed at figuring out fairly difficult questions related to their field (DC 20), and occasionally have the insight necessary to answer some of the toughest questions mankind has ever considered asking (DC 30).

And yes, a post-doc with access to scientific journals (+2 Circumstance), using the best technology available (+2 Circumstance), with the help of collegues (+2 Aid Another) and enough knowledge in a tangentially relevant field (+2 Synergy) who takes 20 on their check (representing the difficulty of researching a "never before considered and fairly important" question) gets a total check result of 41.

So yes, college professors are incredibly capable people. But they're not all 5th level, or even necessarily 4th. I'd put most of them at 3rd, and that's nothing to sneeze at.

[smasher0404]

I'd like to submit my own hypothetical build for Accuracy

It assumes that I somehow have an evil, flat-footed

Venerable Human Paladin 2/Fighter 2/Factotum 1/Shiba Protector 1
Str 8-6? Dex 10-6? Con 12-6? Int 13+3 Wis 15+3 Cha 14+3+1
1st: Alertness
Human Bonus Feat:Combat Expertise
3rd:Zen Archery
Fighter Bonus Feat:Iron Will
FB:Bowslinger
6th:Weapon Focus(Type of Bow you are using)

+4 BAB +4 Smite Evil+4 Shiba Protector+4 Wisdom (Zen Archery) +3 (Factotum Cunning Insight)+2 Bowslinger+1 Masterwork bow + 1 Weapon Focus: +23 to Hit with Evil and Flatfooted, hitting on a 12, if the target is not Evil (or you are out of Smite Evil), +19, hits on a 16, if it is not Evil and not Flatfooted, +17, hits on a 18.

I could theoretically boost this higher in an even more unusual circumstance if a single cleric level without using spells was allowed, but I felt that was even more cheaty than using a Paladin's Smite Evil Ability. Also this build is super MAD relying on every single mental ability score in order to reliably hit the target. All the +3's are from aging as are all the penalties to the physical ability scores.

[WeaselGuy]

I'd like to submit my own hypothetical build for Accuracy

It assumes that I somehow have an evil, flat-footed

Venerable Human Paladin 2/Fighter 2/Factotum 1/Shiba Protector 1
Str 8-6? Dex 10-6? Con 12-6? Int 13+3 Wis 15+3 Cha 14+3+1
1st: Alertness
Human Bonus Feat:Combat Expertise
3rd:Zen Archery
Fighter Bonus Feat:Iron Will
FB:Bowslinger
6th:Weapon Focus(Type of Bow you are using)

+4 BAB +4 Smite Evil+4 Shiba Protector+4 Wisdom (Zen Archery) +3 (Factotum Cunning Insight)+2 Bowslinger+1 Masterwork bow + 1 Weapon Focus: +23 to Hit with Evil and Flatfooted, hitting on a 12, if the target is not Evil (or you are out of Smite Evil), +19, hits on a 16, if it is not Evil and not Flatfooted, +17, hits on a 18.

I could theoretically boost this higher in an even more unusual circumstance if a single cleric level without using spells was allowed, but I felt that was even more cheaty than using a Paladin's Smite Evil Ability. Also this build is super MAD relying on every single mental ability score in order to reliably hit the target. All the +3's are from aging as are all the penalties to the physical ability scores.

It was ruled earlier that bowslinger won't work, the target isn't flat footed... I already tried it...

[Twurps]

I think I might have finally worked out a good 'speed' build. It works without dragon mags, but gets better with the 'targeteer' variant fighter from Dragon mag #310.

The build: Human barbarian1, (targeteer)fighter5.
Feats
Human: FREE
lvl1: Weapon focus
lvl3: FREE
lv6: FREE
Fighter1: point blank shot
Fighter2: Rapid shot
Fighter4: Arrow swarm. (Dragon #310 replaces the 'normal' figher feat)/exotic weapon proficiency

ACF: whirling frenzy rage variant (UA)

Equipment: a masterwork elven doublebow (exotic weapon.)

The Targeteer fighter gets two exotic ranged weapon proficiencies. If not using dragon mags, simply replace the 'arrow swarm' feat for 'exotic weapon prof: elven doublebow' and all levels of targeteer fighter for normal fighter.

Number of attack without the Arrow swarm ability (and thus without dragon mag material)
When moving: Standard action attack1 +1 (Elven doublebow, extra arrow knocked as a move action in the round before)+1Whirling frenzy: for a total of 3 attacks every other round. (unless knocking an arrow and movement are ruled to be the same move action. lets be prudent however, and say it doesn't.)
To hit: BAB+6, +1WF, +1 PBS, +1 masterwork, -2Frenzy, -2doublebow (first 2 arrows only). For: +5/+5/+7. Target was AC14, so rolls of 9+ will do.

When stationary:
Full attack: 2 attack (BAB6)+1 whirling frenzy, +1(extra arrow on elven doublebow on first attack only, arrow knocked on the round before)+1 rapid shot=5 attacks every other round.
To hit: BAB+6, +1WF, +1 PBS, +1 masterwork, -2Frenzy, -2rapid shot, -2doublebow (first 2 arrows only), -5 2nd iterative(last attack only) for: +3/+3/+5/+5/+0 against a target of AC9

When Stationary and using arrow swarm:
Attacks: As above, but add 2 attacks from arrowswarm for 7 attacks total
To hit: As above, but ad -5 to all, so: -2/-2/0/0/0/0/-5

With 3 feats to spare: Law devotion would give a 1minute a day +3 on all attack rolls and Knowledge devotion would give an additional variable bonus.

[shaikujin]

I've got a build that uses much of what Twurps' does to meet the 5 shot challenge.
I tried to squeeze everything into a single build that can meet all the challenges. The 5 shots one at level 2, the rest at level 1.


**********
Human Warblade 1

Str 8, Dex 13, Con 8, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 8 (yeah, it's a 5 point build, other points can be used to boost any stats desired)

Manuevers
Manuever 1 - Sudden Leap. Swift action to move distance based on jump check (Nothing magical, just a sudden jump)
Manuever 2 - Free
Manuever 3 - Free
Stance 1 - Blood in the Water. Gain a stackable +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with every critical hit (Nothing magical, it's described as working oneself into a frenzied state, like barbarians bashing their own shields)

Feats
Human bonus : Point Blank Shot
Flaw 1 (Frail) : Rapid Shot
Flaw 2 (Vulnerable) : Far Shot
Level 1 : Rapid Reload (Light Crossbow) - Time required to reload crossbow is reduced from move action (or full round action) to a free action

Weapon Group Variant on SRD
1 Basic Weapons
2 Bows
3 Exotic Weapons (Elven double bow, greatbow, composite greatbow)
4 Free


Gold
Starting gold : 125 gp
Starting Region : Sembia (PGtF pg 14) 300 gp

Gear
1) Greatbow (CW pg 154). Costs 150 gp
*Made from Dragonbone. Costs additional +100 gp
*Carving bows out of Dragonbone (Draconomicon pg 117) gives +20 feet range increment, and makes it into a composite version

2) 12 lb Shapesand. Costs 100 gp. Shapesand is used to shape

2a) 2 Kukris (2 lbs each)

2b) 1 Elven Double Bow (3 lbs, AE&G pg 7)
*Exotic Weapon Proficiency (elven double bow) allows 2 arrows to be fired simultaneously. Nocking an arrow on the second string requires a move-equivalent action.

2c) Some Flight Arrows (AE&G pg 5)
*Adds +25 to range increment
**********



Preparation steps
1) Use Warblade's Weapon Aptitude to change the designated weapon for the Rapid Reload feat from Light Crossbow to Elven Double Bow
2) Adopt the Blood in the Water stance
3) Use both Kukris to start hitting something big and easy to hit, say the ground. Blood in the Water triggers on Critical hits, not Critical damage. That means even if objects are immune to crit damage, critical hits can still be rolled
After half an hour or so on average, bonus to hit from Blood in the Water will reach the +40s range or more


Accuracy challenge
Once to hit bonus is in the +40s, the build can hit AC 35 on any roll except an auto miss. 95% accuracy rate. Scalable to any AC, just needs longer ground bashing


Distance challenge
Use Dragonbone Composite Greatbow

Range increment
1) Composite Greatbow = 130
2) Dragonbone +20 (=150)
3) Flight Arrow +25 (=175)
4) Farshot x1.5 (262.5)
5) Bows have a max of 10 increments (=2,625 ft)

Distance is 2,625 feet. Since bonus to hit is +40, the build can hit AC 6 at 10 increments out on any roll except an auto miss. 95% accuracy rate.


Speed challenge - hit more than 2 times and move
1) Use Elven Double Bow. Nock both arrows (closest thing in D&D to holding an extra arrow in hand for fast loading)
2) Full round attack -
2a) Fire both arrows, use Rapid Reload to nock both strings again,
2b) using Rapid Shot, fire the 2 reloaded arrows
3) Trigger Sudden Jump to move

4 arrows fired. Trigger Sudden Leap to move. Can still use 5-foot step


Speed challenge - hit more than 4 times without moving
*Add an additional level in Whirling Frenzy Barbarian to the build
1) Use Elven Double Bow. Nock both arrows (closest thing in D&D to holding an extra arrow in hand for fast loading)
2) Activate Whirling Frenzy Rage
3) Full round attack -
3a) Fire both arrows, use Rapid Reload to nock both strings again,
3b) using Rapid Shot, fire the 2 reloaded arrows, reload both arrows,
3c) using extra attack from Whirling Frenzy babarian, fire both arrows once more

6 arrows fired. Can still trigger Sudden Leap to move. Can still use 5-foot step


Extra - Most shots possible at level 6
Get 4 more levels of full BAB classes, use the second iterative at level 6 to fire 2 more arrows
Take the Ranged threat feat from Dragon Mag 350 to make an AoO again. Just 1 attack, but both arrows from the Elven Double Bow will be fired.

10 arrows fired. Can still trigger Sudden Leap to move. Can still use 5-foot step.