Druid with one level monk dip?

[Hiro Quester]

Playing a forest gnome druid. Currently level 5. Mostly core (PH 1&2, DMG 1&2, MM &Stormwrack). Mostly buffer, battlefield control, summoner. But basically utility player; filling in whatever role needs doing.

Now I'm getting wildshape, I can also be backup melee when needed. And be able to step into melee to buff the tank while having a chance of not dying, and maybe dishing out some damage, too.

Was going to get a monk's belt to help AC in wildshape (party member putting it on me after wildshaping). But we're playing a fairly low magic, low optimization game. (E.g three characters who depend on charisma are dwarves: sorcerer, bard, knight).

So DM has ruled that the monk's belt can't be worn in wildshape forms. Too overpowered.

DM suggested I take a level of monk instead. It makes the druid slightly less comparatively overpowered, better balance for the party, and might be fun to play.

The benefits:

wisdom bonus to AC in all wildshape forms, plus adds to touch AC, and while flat footed
unarmed strikes as primary attacks, with natural weapons as secondary attacks in a full round attack (especially good when I take multiattack)
the possibility of quarterstaff flurry of blows with shillelaghs cast on it
I especially like the idea of learning animal kung fu styles (bear, crane, tiger, snake, etc.) for unarmed strikes, and performing them in animal forms

What I'd lose: delayed caster level, delayed wildshape progression, and no huge elemental wildshape.

And I'd have to become lawful neutral from true neutral. I can justify that. (Though I have never changed alignment before, and don't know the process.)

Am I crazy for considering this? Is there something important I'm not considering?

[eggynack]

It's one of the better dips on a druid, but dipping on a druid is pretty universally terrible for the reasons you noted. It doesn't sound like you care deeply about jumping into melee constantly, which means that the benefits you've mentioned are especially lackluster. It can even be argued that dipping monk reduces your melee capability. After all, access to higher level spells, more powerful summons, bigger wild shape forms, and better animal companions, are all prime determinants of your melee capacity. Of course, on top of that, you'd also become worse at everything else. Doing this wouldn't totally wreck your character's power, because a druid one level behind the party is still very powerful, but it would be a serious reduction, even in areas where you'd expect the opposite result.

[Solaris]

But on the other hand, Kung-Fu Panda.

If you want to focus more on melee, then a monk dip wouldn't be all bad - after all, druids are famously powerful, and it's not like losing 20th level abilities is all that likely to come up.
If you don't want to wade into a fight, though, I think you might be better off avoiding the monk dip.

[gorfnab]

Monk's Belt (DMG - 13,000gp) + Wilding Clasp (MIC - 4,000gp) would do pretty much the same thing as a level of Monk (minus the bonus feat).

Two levels of Unarmored Swordsage would also be an option to look into.

[Vhaidara]

Do it. If you stay in druid you will easily overpower the poor dwarves.


Monk's Belt (DMG - 13,000gp) + Wilding Clasp (MIC - 4,000gp) would do pretty much the same thing as a level of Monk (minus the bonus feat).

Two levels of Unarmored Swordsage would also be an option to look into.

Specifically disallowed, read the OP please

[animewatcha]

Are you willing to give up wildshape ( all ), armor proficiency and shield proficiency?

Less bookkeeping for you and the DM has less to worry about.

Through retraining...

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druid

[Hiro Quester]

I'm not that worried about stepping into melee. I'm playing a tiny weak forest gnome, with a serious shyness problem (cha is 10, but with penalties to human interactions in exchange for bonus to animal interactions).

So now I have wildshape, I'm going to play him with a lot of repressed rage about being ignored, and treated as small and weak.

So it will be fun to play him as a kung fu panda panther, who will totally kick butt in melee, who might try picking fights just to feel like a big tough animal bruiser, and who will be reluctant to come out of wildshape.

The contrast between small weak humanoid and big tough animal will be quite fun to play with, I think.

And yes, it's underpowered. But if I play my normal optimizing ways as pure druid, I run the risk of being overpowered.

Optimizing a slightly hobbled druid/monk could be a fun challenge. Plus the Kung fu animal styles are also elemental and seasonal styles (bear=earth=late summer; monkey=fire=summer; crane=air=Fall, etc.) which can be played up for extra druidic flavor.

With the kung fu option, but still concentrating on buffing and healing, and battlefield control and summoning, I think I can have fun and not step too hard on other players' (or DM's) fun.

[Hiro Quester]

Are you willing to give up wildshape ( all ), armor proficiency and shield proficiency?

Less bookkeeping for you and the DM has less to worry about.

Through retraining...

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druid

Gods, no! Wildshape with casting is what I got into the druiding business for.

The versatility of animal forms is too useful. Plus I deliberately pumped wis and con, and took penalties to str, dex, and cha, in order to change it all up through wildshape.

It's an interesting option, if you want to be a druid caster summoner, I guess. (I'd never noticed that variant before, though.) But I really want to be a huge bear, tiger, elemental, etc.

[edit: typos]

[animewatcha]

There a way for a person to get wildshape back?

I have no idea why, but when I read those comments.. I thought Kung Fu Horsey on two legs ( like a humanoid ) {Scrubbed}

[Crake]

There a way for a person to get wildshape back?

I have no idea why, but when I read those comments.. I thought Kung Fu Horsey on two legs ( like a humanoid ) {Scrubbed}

I'm not... I don't even

[eggynack]

And yes, it's underpowered. But if I play my normal optimizing ways as pure druid, I run the risk of being overpowered.
It is what it is. There's not much that folks can tell you beyond the fact that this is going to be weaker by just about every metric. If you want that, and it's an entirely valid thing to want, then go ahead. There's no weird fine print that makes this any more bad than it appears to be on the surface level, if that's what you're worried about.

[animewatcha]

{Scrubbed}

[Fallenreality]

Another option would be a prestige class. You can do some very fun things with Warshaper and/or Master of Many Forms with druid. You take a bit of a casting hit (Which would help you stay in line with the rest of your party) but Warshaper is only 5 levels and offers some very tempting features both in and out of your wildshape.

Monk is a rather good dip for Druid though, also fun to play. You should go for it!

[Hiro Quester]

Sorry. I'm not touching that, animewatcha. But I'm certainly not taking the blame for whatever it is you're implying.

And those PrCs are not available in our game, fallenreality. And if they were I like the druid casting, and wouldn't give that up. Losing one caster level is about the limit. Even that hurts quite a bit.

I'm thinking that this dip might be fun, even if dragonhide full plate with wild enhancement would provide just as good, if not better AC boost.

The monk dip gives that AC all the time and to touch (good for Ray spells). And the thematic kung fu animals will be fun role playing.

Thanks for all your advice, everyone.

[animewatcha]

When it comes to WIS versus wildshaped CON.. which do you plan on being higher?

[Solaris]

Say, what about the Fist of the Forest prestige class? Have you given any thought to that one?

[Renen]

If you end up making kung fu panda, do share the results :D

[eggynack]

When it comes to WIS versus wildshaped CON.. which do you plan on being higher?
Constitution among monster manual animals seems to hover around 18, so they shouldn't be too far apart in most forms, though I would expect wisdom to be a bit higher across most forms and levels.

Say, what about the Fist of the Forest prestige class? Have you given any thought to that one?
Seems unlikely given the lack of book access, and also given that it's not significantly superior to monk and eats a pile of feats.

[Solaris]

Seems unlikely given the lack of book access, and also given that it's not significantly superior to monk and eats a pile of feats.

Three feats, one of which the monk gets as a bonus feat and another of which you can get as a monk bonus feat through the Overwhelming Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#overwhelmingAttack) school. So... one feat (which, granted, is still a lame feat). The class lets you add your Constitution bonus to AC (handy when in animal form, neh?) and improve unarmed damage. It'll cost some druid spellcasting and abilities, but if you're taking levels of monk and rolling with a party that has dwarves in Cha-based classes that's... not so much a concern unless you really want those abilities.
It's in Complete Champion, so you're right about the lack of book access.

[eggynack]

Three feats, one of which the monk gets as a bonus feat and another of which you can get as a monk bonus feat through the Overwhelming Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#overwhelmingAttack) school. So... one feat (which, granted, is still a lame feat). The class lets you add your Constitution bonus to AC (handy when in animal form, neh?) and improve unarmed damage. It'll cost some druid spellcasting and abilities, but if you're taking levels of monk and rolling with a party that has dwarves in Cha-based classes that's... not so much a concern unless you really want those abilities.
My core assumption was that the OP was only dipping a single level, as he's stated a preference for not ditching large amounts of druid advancement. It's a good preference to have, from an optimization perspective.

[Solaris]

But remember the greater definition of optimization, which is to achieve a target power level. If his compatriots are really as sub-par as presented (~T3), then he can afford more than one level's dip in order to focus on aspects of the class that are less powerful, emphasizing them while de-emphasizing the more powerful aspects of the druid and thereby bringing his power level down closer to theirs.
He shouldn't go over three, however, unless they're in PrCs that grant casting at the levels taken. That'll cost him 9th-level spells.

[eggynack]

But remember the greater definition of optimization, which is to achieve a target power level. If his compatriots are really as sub-par as presented (~T3), then he can afford more than one level's dip in order to focus on aspects of the class that are less powerful, emphasizing them while de-emphasizing the more powerful aspects of the druid and thereby bringing his power level down closer to theirs.
He shouldn't go over three, however, unless they're in PrCs that grant casting at the levels taken. That'll cost him 9th-level spells.
Sure, but a stated preference is still a stated preference, and maintaining progression is one of those. Besides which, it feels like the general assumption is optimization within given guidelines unless explicitly stated otherwise.

[Hiro Quester]

Yeah, our book list means no FotF.

FYI, I started with 16 CON and 18 WIS to keep Casting stat and HP for wild shapes up high. All bonus to WIS. My periapt of wisdom is going to double as an amulet of health, probably, though. And DM has said I'll be able to wear that in many wildshape forms.

I might consider another monk level later on. But I'll see how one level works. Getting evasion, lowering penalties for flurry of blows, and deflect arrows all sounds tempting. But not strongly so.
Keeping druid casting and advancing animal companion, wild shapes, etc. seem more important.

I think I'm going to do this.

The major benefits:

Wis to AC, even for touch and flat footed.
Unarmed strikes for animal forms, in addition to their natural attacks (all at -5 until I take Multi-attack). So in Melee as a brown bear I'd do an average of 33 damage, rather than 24 (extra d8+8; 1st Natural attack at half strength).
Even in animal forms without much in the way of natural weapons, e.g. while scouting as a bird or rat or dog, I'd still have flurry of blows. Imagine being able to hit, hard(ish) even in forms without much natural weaponry, sounds funny to play.
Flurry of blows with Quarterstaff, in Ape form (both monk and druid weapon of choice) with Shillelagh cast on it.
Unarmed strike dice increase by the size of the creature. So as I get large and then huge animal forms, the unarmed strikes get more powerful.
Stunning fist's DC is 10 +1/2 character level plus Wisdom, so it will scale as the character grows. And number of SF's/day also grows by 1/four non-monk levels.



Right now my last hesitation is that I'm weighing all this fun against the expense yet higher boost to AC of wild armor and keeping Druid.

Dragonhide breastplate with +2 enhancement, and darkwood shield with +2 enhancement, both with Wild enhancement, is +12 to AC when in wildshape, for 50000gp and some change. Plus (earlier) better casting, better Animal Companion, better wildshape options.

Monk, with a periapt of wisdom +6 (for 36 000; many other benefits tho, I'd want to do that anyway) and all ability increases to Wis, gives Wisdom of 29 (+9) to AC (plus all the above fun).

But it means money saved for metamagic rods, pearls of power, etc. (that can be used when casting buff spells in the morning, before wildshaping). And I'd get all the normal druid stuff, just a tiny bit later. And I'd never get Huge Elemental wildshape forms.

So, bearing in mind that the goal is to have fun (a tiny gnome who starts using animal power to be big and tough and let out his repressed rage, and who learns animal styes of kung fu for unarmed combat), make my character a bit more melee capable, and not to overpower my fellow players (only some of whom are not totally optimized), I'm probably going to do this.

[Edit: typos]

[Solaris]

I don't think a second level of monk will do you much good, not unless you're keen on evasion.

If you can get the sorcerer to cast mage armor on you, that should do for bringing your AC up to parity. Bracers of armor +4 are 16,000 gp, which would save your character a whopping 2,000 gp (don't spend it all in one place) but give your druid/monk a better AC in comparison to your druid and can't be dispelled like mage armor can.

[Hiro Quester]

I already have bracers of armor +1 for when not in wildshape (loot from an encounter). That gets me to AC 17 when not in animal forms.

But yes, I'm buying our sorcerer a wand of mage armor for sure. That and my own barkskin will do well to keep me difficult-to-hit in a scrap.

But I plan on living in wildshape much of the time, so I won't be investing further in things that don't work in wildshape, like bracers.

My character is very shy and bad at human interactions. -2 to human social interactions. Talking often makes things worse.

The extra challenge of having to pantomime and growl my comments to the rest of the party will be fun to play, too.

Thanks again for the encouragement!

[atemu1234]

I already have bracers of armor +1 for when not in wildshape (loot from an encounter). That gets me to AC 17 when not in animal forms.

But yes, I'm buying our sorcerer a wand of mage armor for sure. That and my own barkskin will do well to keep me difficult-to-hit in a scrap.

But I plan on living in wildshape much of the time, so I won't be investing further in things that don't work in wildshape, like bracers.

My character is very shy and bad at human interactions. -2 to human social interactions. Talking often makes things worse.

The extra challenge of having to pantomime and growl my comments to the rest of the party will be fun to play, too.

Thanks again for the encouragement!

Why are you ever not wildshaped? I once had a druid who convinced everyone he was an awakened bear with cleric levels.

[Hiro Quester]

Level 5 just achieved. Only 5 hrs/ day right now.

But I plan on being an animal most of the time, once I can, and once I have natural spell next level, when I'll take a monk level, too.

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u262/drascin/motivator1835286.jpg