Critical Analysis of Gestalt Builds

[Andrian]

So, I've been building a number of gestalt characters lately (it's become an addiction) and I've been thinking about how optimization with those kinds of builds work. For one thing, you have to throw a lot of advice given about the base classes right out the window. Building a ranged Paladin might be feat-intensive, but building a ranged Paladin/Ranger or Paladin/Fighter is not as bad. Depending on which classes you pick, you may end up with better saves than normal, allowing you to dump a stat you would normally try to keep at a decent level just to stay alive. You'll almost certainly be gaining access to a wider range of class skills, and you may end up with more skill points to play with than usual, which can broaden your options significantly.

How to approach a Gestalt build
There is a common conception that with Gestalt builds, you generally pick one class that you use as your main one. I think this is a very bad approach to these kinds of characters. Instead, pick a role (or two!) that you want to fill, then optimize for that role. You want to be a face character that's decent in combat? Bard/Paladin will take you to the front lines, singing and swinging in a whirlwind of holy vengeance. Bard/Sorcerer will make you a battlefield control specialist and give you all the godlike powers that such a combination can bring. You want to be a stealthy skill monkey that deals massive damage? Consider Ninja/Barbarian. Nothing's more terrifying than the thought of a concealed foe with a greatsword and possibly an animal companion. You want to be a divine warrior, but don't want to play Lawful Good? Try Fighter/Cleric. It's the best of both worlds! Think of a gestalt either as a totally new class, or as a perfect synthesis of two classes. Like any class, there will be different roles that you can take on within that class, and you generally pick one to specialize in, or become more of a generalist and pick two. With Gestalt classes, you do the exact same thing. Either you pick two classes that can take on the same role, then specialize in that role, taking advantages of class features from both classes, or you pick two roles and take at least one class that specializes in each, gaining the versatility that two classes offer.

What class to I pick?
Class selection is also very different. Classes that would normally be ignored because they don't do what they do as well as other classes, like Monk, Magus, and Sorcerer, suddenly become extremely attractive. Sorcerer is a great addition to any lightly-armored melee character, especially Monk, where you'll most likely have your hands free to cast spells. Adding Sorcerer to Wizard might feel like a bit of a disappointment, since the two classes have a ton of overlap, but the synergies are incredible, especially if you go with the Sage bloodline, and you will easily become a terrifying arcane force with tons of spells per day to cast, exploiting the strengths of both classes. Magus is great because it has good action economy and allows you to take arcane spellcasting directly to the front lines. Add sorcerer or wizard to have a front-line caster, or add Fighter/Barbarian/Paladin to have a melee character with versatility. The oft-neglected monk is an excellent addition to any reach build, allowing you to stand still and threaten every square within ten feet, and also serves as a great vehicle for delivering arcane spells to the front lines. No need to dance around the battlefield or cower behind the BFS anymore. Just elbow your enemies in the face if they get too close! Plus those high saves make a welcome addition to any build. Also, keep in mind the synergies between alternate class features.

Races
Race selection isn't really affected very much, though you may have to be a little more careful about it when trying to optimize. Humans and Tieflings are still great at everything, dwarves are still a solid choice for clerics and fighters (Remember cleric/fighter? You probably can't beat dwarves for that combination!), catfolk and halflings still make great stealth characters, etc.

Choosing Attribute Scores
Attributes are where you really are going to have to be careful. A lot of Gestalt builds are going to be MAD, so if you roll low stats or have a low point buy, you will have to specialize. Gestalt is done best with 30+ points, because then you can really afford to shine with two major attributes. Picking classes with the same primary stat really helps with this, and the more you specialize, the more Gestalt will amplify that specialization. Archetypes and alternate class features are going to be extremely helpful here. For example, Sorcerers can use any mental stat as their primary casting stat if they take the right bloodline. This allows a single attribute to fuel both arcane casting and another class ability, like your ki pool or divine casting, or just get a bunch of extra skill points every level.

Parties of Gestalt characters
Gestalt party composition is going to be very interesting. In general, all the characters will be a lot more versatile, and there will be a lot of overlap between characters. This is a good thing. Instead of having one character for each job, you now have someone who fills that main role, and probably at least one other person to serve as backup. If your main healer goes down, the Ranger/Druid can revive them. If your tank is having trouble, send up the Paladin/Cleric to give them some breathing room. Or the Ranger/Druid's animal companion.

Synergy
When building your gestalt character, keep in mind that your two classes should have complementary class features. Some gestalt combinations can be nearly gamebreaking. For example, I discovered that Martial Artist Monks can be any alignment, and at level 5, they become immune to fatigue. Combine that with Barbarian, and you can rage cycle really early. This makes for a nearly unstoppable unarmed fighter that can enter and exit rage at will. As another example, rogues and ninjas do bonus damage when flanking, and there are a number of classes and archetypes that would give them access to a full druid level animal companion. As many animal companions are good at stealth, you can probably take down even the toughest opponents before they even know you're there. Wizard/Sorcerer combos make great magic item crafters, since each class has features that grant different bonuses, freeing up more feats and making you every party member's best friend at the same time.

However, be warned! There is such a thing as negative synergy! Any class features that overlap do not stack, so you don't want a ton of overlap between the classes, either. The damage such overlapping can do will vary. Weapon and armor proficiency overlap usually doesn't hurt you much. Sure, it's a feature that could have been different if you'd picked a different class, but most likely, if the proficiencies are overlapping, you're looking for something else in your build. Either armor and weapons unimportant to you, and gaining proficiency in them would not help much, or you're going with two classes that both take advantage of armor and weapons in different ways. What really can hurt are the times when more important things overlap, like bonus feats on the same level, or when one class gives you access to some of the abilities of another class. This is when you'll usually want to take an archetype that changes those overlapping features. Even if you get something you'll rarely use, it's better than getting nothing.

Roleplaying Gestalt characters
Gestalt classes can pose an interesting problem for designing backstories. For some, it's very simple. The Fighter/Paladin just happens to be a natural with his martial training and has spent long hours honing those skills. For others, it's not so easy. How on earth did you have time to train as a Druid AND a Barbarian at the same time? The trick is to not think of your Gestalt class as two classes, but as one. Synthesize them into a single class. You were raised by wolves, so you learned to be at one with nature while also attacking with savage fury. A barbarian monk might be someone who has trained in a particularly deadly or brutal form of martial arts, learning to channel his or her rage to strike with precision and power. A Paladin Magus is from an order that embraces the arcane as well as the divine, learning to combine both in the service of their god. Be creative, and remember that you are not someone who has multiclassed. You are someone who has trained in a class superior to any other.

Especially potent Gestalt combinations
Sorcerer/Wizard - the ultimate arcane caster. You get a ridiculous number of spells per day and the advantages of both at-will and prepared casting with none of the drawbacks. You're still an arcane caster, and you'll still be hanging back from the action from the most part, but you will be the best at what you do. Take the sage bloodline and max out your INT score. Mnemonic Vestment adds even more to the versatility, and Arcane Strike is your best friend.

Sorcerer/Monk - the anime character. Your relatively low attack bonus is offset by the fact that you can now deliver touch spells. Your high mobility, Mage Armor, AC bonus, and strong DEX score will make you virtually impossible to hit, and you can debuff your enemies until a single magic missile or flurry of blows is all it takes to finish them off. Plus it looks totally badass. Take the Empyrial bloodline so that you can take advantage of ki powers and other monk features.

Monk/Barbarian - the unarmed brute. This will probably be a grappler build. Max out your Strength and tear your enemies to shreds. You have horrifyingly high HP, an AC bonus from any points you put into Wisdom, and you get major bonuses to combat maneuvers. You have to take the Martial Artist archetype for Monk in order to get around the alignment gap, but that's not a problem, since the style is perfect for it. This is how you build a Sumo Wrestler in Pathfinder.

Fighter/Cleric - the superior Paladin. For anyone who likes the idea of a holy warrior, but wishes they could pick a god that wasn't Lawful Stupid, this is just the thing. Now you can play the benevolent warrior or the arbiter of the god of war. You're a full divine caster and a martial beast. With the bonus feats, you can afford to be a terror on the battlefield AND a decent healer/buffer/debuffer. Play a dwarf, since it gives bonuses to CON and WIS, and opens up some fun racial feats. This also works for alternate Antipaladin builds. You can play the honorable but evil Black Knight if you want.

Ninja/Barbarian - the grim reaper. There are just too many options with this build. Silent, deadly, and versatile, you are going to be the brawniest ninja to ever stalk the shadows. You can dual-wield a katana and wakizashi for maximum damage. You can take the Mad Dog archetype and fight on the front lines with your animal companion, dealing precision damage every round. You can use a reach weapon and stab people from out of the shadows. However you choose to fight, you'll have great skills to back it up, plus the ability to poison your enemies and use ninja tricks and your ki pool.

Ninja/Bard - the secret agent. By day, you're the handsome fool who sings and entertains the rich, gaining their good graces. By night, you're stealing secret documents, assassinating guards, setting up traps, or just taking everyone's underpants.Though a MAD build, you will be invaluable to the party, acting as a face and skill monkey, and able to switch between stealthy sneak attacks and rousing bard performances at will. For kicks, play an Aasimar. No one will suspect you, and you gain a boost to the two mental stats you'll be using most.

----

There are definitely a lot of things I overlooked. You'll notice there are whole classes I never even touched on, and I'm sure I've missed some other advice. What do you think of my analysis so far, and is there anything you'd like to add? Gestalt is such a wide topic that it's hard to cover everything. It's like going from a box of sixteen crayons to a crate of 1600. The possibilities are endless, and there's so much to explore!

[Snowbluff]

Generally, skill points, BAB, and Spells. Get those 3.

For example, a Wizard/Synthesist. Int focus gives a large amount of Skill points, and the summoner BAB helps round out your melee ability. Not to mention you would be needing any stat past int and a bit of Cha.

Actually, that's great advice. Learn what actually being MAD means. If you're a ranger, you're not made for needing wisdom to cast. You only need 10+spell level in your casting stat to cast a spell. If you're focused on buffing an support spells, you can get away with the minimum.

[Fallenreality]

I'm rather fond of Summoner/Bard. All your casting is based on your Charisma, you have good skill points, good BAB, illusion and conjuration spells for versatility, and an Eidolon for damage/tanking. Even better, is you can use your bardic music to make the Eidolon even more deadly.

Or, you could go Synthesist. You become both a terrifying caster and melee combatant with large amounts of versatility and damage. Or you could go Master Summoner and boost whole armies of summoned minions while specializing your Eidolon more.

The Summoner/Bard I mention in my signature is based on Excalibur from Soul Eater. It requires your DM to let you play as a living weapon but there are several different homebrew races scattered around that work for that. What you would do for that is Court Bard with a base summoner. Make an Eidolon designed to wield the character in their weapon form, and then shout fools at your enemies as your Eidolon attacks them.

Edit:

I would have to agree with Snowbluff on the priorities. Although I generally try to go for versatility over complete mastery in an area. I'll very often avoid using already T1 classes such as Wizard in my gestalts as I like how certain class features blend together. In general, any gestalt where someone would pick a Wizard I would probably toss in Alchemist or Magus instead. They provide very power class features in a wide area of subjects, and work very well with other classes. Or together actually... Kensei/Grenadier makes for a rather fun magic ninja.

[Hazrond]

I have been playing alot of pathfinder lately and was wondering, how would a Warpriest//Magus work you think? it would be a bit MAD but it sounds fun, it also has at least some capability at 3 out of the 4 major roles (Arcane, Divine, and Martial)

[grarrrg]

Don't forget about PrC's, they can really add to a build without sacrificing near as much as they would in a 'normal' game.
Dragon Disciple and Eldritch Knight go from "average" to "good" when Gestalt is allowed.
And there are TONS of PrC's that have unique/interesting/build-around-me type abilities that just never work in a 'normal' game, as you sacrifice too much to get them.
Gestalt opens up LOTS of options.


There is a common conception that with Gestalt builds, you generally pick one class that you use as your main one. I think this is a very bad approach to these kinds of characters.

"Main side" mentality is a perfectly viable approach to building a Gestalt. It's quicker/easier to say "I want Barbarian, what goes good with it?" and work from there, then it is to try and mix and match.
There are also things like Favored Class bonuses, that still only apply to 1 class/side. And the plethora of Multiclass and PrC options means you have an opportunity to go straight-20 levels with one side, while cherry picking the other side to boost it.
And the fact that Pathfinder favors sticking with 1 single class, as it pays off much better than mutliclassing around.

A good "main side" build is something like Magus 20//Wizard 10/Eldritch Knight 10 (I could make this SO much more dip-y, but I'll keep the example simple)
Magus is your main side, and you take the Broad Study arcana to be able to use your Wizard Spells with your Magus abilities. Eldritch Knight is there to give you a Bab/HD boost.

A good "synergy" build is Warpriest//Synthesist
Take Weapon Focus: Claws so you can use your Sacred Weapon damage instead of the base 1d4 Claw damage, then apply the Bigger Boat Eidolon buffing stack to get absolutely ludicrous amounts of damage that you could never hope for normally.

[AmberVael]

You don't really talk about what I would consider one of the biggest points in how to think about gestalt- action economy. One of the most frequent and simple suggestions I hear people give out about gestalt is to choose an active and a passive class- you can get more complicated than that and still be okay, but it is absolutely essential to consider what actions your classes will want to take, and how they'll interact with each other in that way. The Wizard//Sorcerer has a ton of spells and has the benefits of both spellcasting classes... but can still only cast one spell at a time, so much of what really makes them strong overlaps. Meanwhile, pairing a full spellcaster with a class that derives a lot of its power from actionless benefits (or longterm buffs or the like) will allow you to manifest the strengths of both classes at nearly all times.

As a side note, the general tradition is to use slash to denote multiclassing, and double slash to denote gestalting. Just makes it simpler to tell the difference that way.

I also disagree that it is necessarily wrong to go into a gestalt build thinking of one of your classes as your main class. There ARE viable builds that think this way, using one class largely to support and augment the other- why do you think the 3.5 Factotum was so popular in gestalt? Besides, while you get extra class levels your other resources do not increase- you may find it is better off to focus your feats and wealth on one class, ensuring your competence in it rather than mediocrity in multiple classes.

[Fallenreality]

As a side note, the general tradition is to use slash to denote multiclassing, and double slash to denote gestalting. Just makes it simpler to tell the difference that way.

Ah, thanks! I've never had that pointed out to me. xD

I do agree involving action economy. I tried putting together a build involving two classes in the DSP Path of War stuff and ended up just having too much to do and not enough actions to do it. Excuse me for going back to a previous example but the reason I enjoy Bard/Summoner is how well they complement one another. The Bard provides solid buffing while the Eidolon or summons protect him. When not in your performance you can either summon more or use the wonderful control abilities either class offers.

My other gestalt currently is going to use his move actions to control a swarm, and use his standard and swift actions for features from Occultist. There is no overlap in what they're doing, but control aspects through the swarm protect the character very well. It also combines veilweaving and pact magic which leads to a lot of versatility.

[AvatarVecna]

Gestalt is wonderful for opening up options, as is tristalt. I love it for so many reasons.

1) Combine fractional BAB and base saves with taking the best of each, and the odds of getting full BAB with super-high saves is sky-high.

2) Some options (archetypes, class features, whatever) have significant downsides because they don't mesh well with anything; throwing on something that bypasses or overcomes that downside is the best thing ever.

3) Classes that are only useful for dipping are even more useful for dipping. In a straight game, nobody would take more than maybe 2 levels of monk. But there's some decent stuff you get by monk 6. Building a combat machine, and looking for some feats, but don't want to lose out on your main class features? Fighter 2 is always your friend, but now there's even room for Fighter 4 or 6.

4) Above all, it encourages building a concept, rather than a class combo.
Ignoring the lovely worlds of dipping, concept-based char-op, and hybrid base classes, here's some class combos I find mighty interesting.

Focus the alchemist on Strength-based mutagens, and focus everything else around natural weapons and charging.

http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2012/104/1/e/hulk_smash__by_atzinaghy-d4w3ynx.jpgThere's some decent Int-based Gunslinger options, but that's not what you're here for. Interesting fact: dual-wielding pistols requires a third arm to reload...which Alchemist can provide. Also, I highly suggest using the "Conductive" weapon enchantment as a "grenade launcher" for your bombs.

http://caffeinatedneutral.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/sam-colt.jpgFirst rule: poison. Second rule: poison. Third rule: review the first two rules. Focus on Intelligence and gets all the skills. Laugh as you drop a freezing blinding poison bomb in your own square and laugh hysterically as high Dex, good Ref save, and Improved Evasion keep you safe while everyone near you suffers a slow and painful death.

http://th05.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/i/2013/271/5/8/batman_arkham_origins_by_vgwallpapers-d6oajdj.jpgInt-MAD casting and mastery of potion-making. What's not to love? Also, can't suggest Alchemist/Witch without this quote: "Bubble, bubble, toil and trouble..."

http://th09.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/i/2013/318/2/6/swamp_witch_brews_a_potion_by_lenika86-d45wp4i.jpgInt-MAD casting and mastery of potion-making. What's not to love. By all means, combine spells, bombs, mutagens, and potions to unleash your inner mad scientist.

http://files.broadsheet.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/madscientist.jpgLet's see what's awesome about this...

Full BAB, all good saves, d12 HD, Fatigue Immunity+Rage, Rage Powers...everything here is awesome!

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120216224641/powerlisting/images/3/32/Eight_Gates-Rock_Lee.jpgFull casting, Rage Casting, good Will save for a Barbarian, Fatigue Immunity, d12 HD...this can be the ultimate unkillable, unstoppable juggernaut the world has ever cowered in fear from.

http://th00.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/f/2012/297/3/0/grim_reaper_commission_by_n_deed-d5ivirq.jpgYou're not just a warrior, you're a skald: you're a skilled orator, a charismatic commander, a general with a silver tongue. You are the intelligent warrior, and when you lead the charge, no foe can withstand the coming storm.

http://i.imgur.com/WS0pf6p.jpgAll the spellcasting power of a Cleric, but it's Cha-MAD. Buffing, debuffing, summoning...and all with the skills of a bard and decent Ref save to back you up. And unlike clerics, oracles aren't restricted to a deity/cause in line with their alignment, which creates dramatic tension between your character and their divine power source. Dun dun DUUUN!!!

http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs11/i/2006/257/d/d/order_of_the_stick_by_spectral_d.jpgThe ultimate holy warrior. Pull out every last trick in the CoDzilla handbook, and tell the enemy forces just how rekt they are. It's like playing a Paladin, but you have a wider variety of restrictive codes to choose from, rather than just the one.

http://www.walltor.com/images/wallpaper/holy-warrior-179848.jpgAll good saves, Wis-SAD, monk defenses plus CoDzilla, unarmed strike plus bad-touch cleric tactics...there's so many options here, and it's so flavorful.

http://diablo.incgamers.com/gallery/data/501/medium/fanart-0056-full.jpgWhether the pious thief, or the religious assassin, you're going to be playing to some kind of stereotype. You've got all good saves, tons of skills, buff spells to give you an edge, debuff spells to combine with sneak attack, summoning to get dependable flanking partners.

http://crpp0001.uqtr.ca/w4/campagne/images/wotc_art_galleries/Complete_Divine/Temple%20Raider%20of%20Olidammara%20by%20William%2 0O'Connor.jpgWis-SAD caster, bloodline powers, domain powers, and an unbreakable willpower. You can summon armies and buff them, or lay down blasts, debuffs, and BFC. Healing has it's uses on occasion, too. Plus, how cool would it be if your cleric casting didn't actually line up with your bloodline's natural heritage?

http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2012/077/e/7/half_angel_half_demon_by_sioa0fujia-d4t4y35.jpgWis-SAD, high saves across the board, monk defenses, and full divine spellcasting. Plus, KUNG-FU PANDA.

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20101111133822/kungfupanda/images/f/f0/FuriousFive.jpgYou are now the ultimate modern soldier. Tons of feats, double Dex to damage, Touch AC targeting...nobody is safe from your bullets!

http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2013/300/3/0/i_am_heavy_weapons_guy_and_this_is_my_weapon_by_h3 11man-d6s26vw.jpgd10 HD, Full BAB, good Fort and Ref saves, 10 SP/level, Sneak Attack, tons of feats. Pure awesome, no matter what fighting style you settle one.

http://rack.1.mshcdn.com/media/ZgkyMDE0LzA5LzA4LzdkL2JhdG1hbmFya2hhLjdhMzM2LmpwZw pwCXRodW1iCTEyMDB4NjI3IwplCWpwZw/25bd3562/9f7/batman-arkham-knight.jpgTwo words: magic bullets. Sure, it's kinda MAD, but who cares? You're shooting magic bullets and dishing out death left and right!

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m274/ShadowFighter_15/Black13th.jpgGetting close to the battle is for idiots with a death wish; you prefer picking off your targets from a nice, cozy, secure spot where nobody could hurt you even if they knew where to find you (which they don't). Sniping's a good job, mate, and you're the best there is.

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/098/9/d/9d4cc8d31244b60c840a78d89da1ae97.jpgIf you're gonna go all out, go all out. Sure, you're now the MAD-est character ever, but combine all good saves with Cha to saves, Full BAB, d10 HD, Wis to AC, and Smite Evil with unarmed Flurry of Blows. Throw on Crusader's Flurry, and you can use your deity's favored weapon to flurry. If you'll let me, I have a suggestion...

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130213201804/samuraijack/images/5/5c/Samurai_Jack.pngMonk with Full BAB, ranger with good Will save, tons of feats focused on your fighting style, and the best part is that it's full of flavor. Have fun!

http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs12/i/2006/314/5/8/Eternal_Witness_by_TereseNielsen.jpgWis-SAD caster getting Wis to AC. All good saves, and a decent BAB and HD. Combine that with tons of awesome spells, and you've got the perfect recipe for a sweet super-saiyan pie!

http://th04.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/f/2013/078/b/f/mi_super_saiyan_god_remasterizado_by_salvamakoto-d5ymxyi.pngThe Mystic Theurge done right: Cha-SAD, tons of casting. Action economy would be a bitch if you had party members to hold you back, but it's not like you need them anymore, amirite?

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/65/9b/23/659b2374b2612122a782a2bdd72d356d.jpgOkay, so this combo is either pure gold or pure poo, and it all depends on how the DM interprets the paladin oath: if Sneak Attacking breaks the paladin oaths, this is poo. Otherwise...d10 HD, full BAB, 8 SP/lvl, all good saves, Cha to saves, Sneak Attack+Smite Evil. This is the true holy assassin.

http://th00.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/i/2010/143/3/6/Assassins_Creed___Ezio_by_aca985.png Ah, the almighty Sorcadin! Unlimited arcane power, and strength at arms, combined in one glorious form. Abuse your Cha-to everything for all you can, and lay waste to the forces of evil!

http://1hdwallpapers.com/wallpapers/angel_sorceress.jpgTwo words: Bounty Hunter. Focus your skills on social skills and urban tracking, focus your favored enemy of humanoids, focus your favored terrain on urban, and focus your feats on dual-wielding. When you find your target, take them down quietly, but firmly. Then move onto the next one. And the next, and the next, and the next...

http://tor.zamimg.com/uploads/images/15099.jpgALL THE ARCANE SPELLS! It's not the most optimized build, but I love it.

http://www.robsworld.org/khurshel.png

[avr]

I have been playing alot of pathfinder lately and was wondering, how would a Warpriest//Magus work you think? it would be a bit MAD but it sounds fun, it also has at least some capability at 3 out of the 4 major roles (Arcane, Divine, and Martial)
Arcane, Divine and Martial aren't roles. They're vague classifications of power sources at best.

With a warpriest you get a selection of buffs which you may be able to apply to yourself as a swift or standard action; magus has standard action buffs and standard or full round attacks. Neither has skills or battlefield control, and the magus is only marginal at area attacks and the warpriest likewise for buffing others.

It looks like a serious nova. As long as your fervor holds out you can buff yourself rapidly and as long as your magus spells hold out you can deal a lot of damage to single targets. Also it's not a little MAD, it's a lot MAD. You really want at least 14 wisdom for fervor uses, you want at least a 14 intelligence for magus bonus spells and then you want con and str and/or dex to fight with.

Not bad, but more specialized than I'd like in a gestalt character.

[avr]

One other thing. When JaronK posted his tier system, one suggestion he made was allowing gestalts of less well rated classes in the same game as non-gestalt tier 1 & 2 classes.

It doesn't seem to have been that popular an idea, but it's worth remembering that even in gestalt games sorcerer // wizard may not be a valid character.

[Taveena]

One thing I hear a fair bit about Gestalt is less main//auxiliary, and more active//passive. A Bard//Totemist DFI omnimauler, for example, spends their action on Bard abilities (quickened spells, Dragonfire Inspiration) but has the Totemist still providing a huge amount of meat to the build (such as the actual attacks that get amped up). Another popular combination is Wizard//Factotum (or Warblade//Factotum) - they have the same intelligence focus, but while the standard and swift actions are spent on Spells or Strikes, the Factotum has a massive number of non-action abilities - including the ability to generate MORE actions. Rogue and Monk provide their benefits passively, which leads to potent combination with skill/save lacking classes.

In Pathfinder terms (Which I all too late realised this thread was about) the same logic applies. (Granted you're now a Bard//Daevic omnimauler).

You can, of course, think of it as Main//Auxiliary - the Wizard//Factotum is one example. A Kineticist could pair with a Fighter for a non-feat starved tripper build. An Alchemist focusing on self-buffs with a Wizard to utilize them - or, as the example given earlier, a Synthesist to provide some terrifying muscle to anyone who could use it. Of course, Synthesist ends up as an Eidolon//Summoner gish by itself, so you could instead go for patching up its weak skillpoints (and abusing its terrifying number of weapon attacks) with a Rogue.

[Andrian]

Having an active and a passive class is a good way to think about a gestalt character for the purposes of combat, I admit, but not for the character as a whole. Action economy is important, but barring summons, you're still going to probably be stuck doing one thing per round no matter what. Swift actions are really great, but you still only get one per round and their bonuses are generally passive. Most Gestalt builds will give your character a lot of breadth. You're not stuck being the Big Stupid Fighter if you took Ninja as your other class. Now you're the Big Smart Fighter, and your versatility both on and off the field are going to pay dividends.

The reason Summoners are so powerful is because they get to control the majority of pieces on the board. I would hate to GM any campaign with any character who can summon more than one creature at a time, because it's a real nuisance to have to go hunting down all the stats for the various summons, and even more of a nuisance to keep track of so many NPC's. It's a nonlinear progression of GMing difficulty.

Sorcerer//Wizard is not going to be very optimized compared to other builds, I admit, but they have one thing that most casters don't: staying power. They can cast all day long without running out of spells, which makes them reliable in a way that no single caster or mixed caster (See Paladin, Ranger, etc.) will be able to achieve. You are God, after all, and God never runs out of spells.

Personally, I'm not comfortable with the idea of level dipping with Gestalt. If I were going to GM a Gestalt campaign, I'd definitely want to put a limit on the number of different classes you could take (Though of course I'd want to make allowances for Prestige Classes). The rules were pretty unspecific about how that worked, and I'm imagining a character sheet three miles long filled with conditional bonuses and abilities that will never see actual use because of the action economy, relics of the never-ending quest for feats and BAB. Still, the main class//auxiliary class setup is going to work best if you plan on dipping, and prestige classes become very easy to qualify for without losing your favored class bonus.

Ultimately, I do agree that Gestalt gives you the freedom to build an effective character around just about any concept, especially ones that would be awful as multiclass characters. Sorcerer//Wizard is one example. Fighter//Wizard is another. In combat, you're probably stuck as either an effective Fighter or an effective Wizard, and Fighter is probably the better option because of the bonus combat feats. Why do I say Fighter//Wizard is a viable combination? Because it allows you to build a decent warrior craftsman. Master Craftsman is a great feat, but it only gives you the ability to craft one of weapons, armor, or a very specific subset of wondrous items, plus you can't do it until mid-game, and you never get those wonderful Wizard discoveries or the Valet familiar. Wizard//Fighter has the feats to be good in combat and great at the forge, which is a really good character concept that Pathfinder just doesn't do well normally. With Gestalt, you can finally play Hephaestus.

Another thing I've noticed that's great about Gestalt builds is that a lot of them are self-sufficient. The Pathfinder classes seem to be designed such that PC's are going to be dependent on each other to get by. While this is great, it does make you wonder sometimes how they survived before joining a party - especially the casters. Gestalt characters are a whole different ballgame, though.

Ultimately, though, the reason I don't like the main/side class mentality is that it tends to ignore a lot of the potential Gestalt builds have, and to squander Gestalt's true power. Note that I'm not saying your goal is to try to play both classes to their maximum individual potential, but rather that the two classes are best seen as working together, pulling equally. Barbarian//Monk is a great example. Barbarians have great BAB and HP, plus rage and rage powers. Monks have excellent saves, immunity to fatigue early on, and some amazing combat abilities, especially with regards to combat maneuvers. Because of the way these classes work together, you really don't want to think of them as being separate. Barbarian is giving power to Monk, and Monk is giving versatility to Barbarian. Together, they are deadly.

One thing I'm thinking about, though I haven't looked into it much yet, would be combining Fighter and Barbarian archetypes to essentially get the best of both worlds when it comes to weapons and armor training. I'm thinking of the Armored Hulk archetype, which gives a lot of bonuses to Barbarians who want to wear heavy armor, and the Weapon Master Fighter archetype, which abandons the armor training for improved weapon skills. If I'm right, you might be able to build what is essentially the perfect warrior - the martial equivalent of Sorcerer//Wizard - with virtually no Armor Check Penalty and maximum weapon specialization, plus rage and a ton of other goodies. I'll have to work on that and see what I come up with.

[Snowbluff]

I have been playing alot of pathfinder lately and was wondering, how would a Warpriest//Magus work you think? it would be a bit MAD but it sounds fun, it also has at least some capability at 3 out of the 4 major roles (Arcane, Divine, and Martial)

Excuse me? Sir? Didn't I already make a point about this?

*ahem* You're casting stat hardly matters if you're a partial caster! You only would need 16 wis at higher levels, which can be enhanced with levels and items. I would set the Int rather high at first, since it gives skill points.

[eggynack]

Having an active and a passive class is a good way to think about a gestalt character for the purposes of combat, I admit, but not for the character as a whole. Action economy is important, but barring summons, you're still going to probably be stuck doing one thing per round no matter what.
That's the whole point of active/passive, rather than an argument against it. In fact manipulating the action economy is one of the better ways to bypass the active/passive paradigm, by giving yourself enough actions to make use of both sides. The idea of active/passive is to have the active side make use of the action economy, perhaps by providing the ability to cast spells or sword things to death, while the passive side provides benefits that don't take actions to apply. This can mean anything from long term buffs (usually hours/level or greater), to auras that you don't have to turn on, to simple defensive abilities like the monk AC bonus.

Classes usually aren't all active or all passive, but classes tend towards one side or the other, and you can switch the parity by emphasizing different things. For example, consider the unarmed swordsage from tome of battle. You can use the class actively, stealthing about and hitting folks with a variety of maneuvers, or you can use it passively, relying on stances, the AC bonus, or the less than standard action maneuvers. Generally speaking, the active class determines what you're actually doing with your time, and the passive class whirs around in the background, improving your capabilities.

[PsyBomb]

I put this in every topic about Gestalting can find, and seems appropriate here.


I think I can sum up the building of a Gestalt Character in 10-commandments style:

1) Action Economy Is Still King
-Full Triple-progression casting is cute, but ultimately futile in combat since nearly every spell, Power, Invocation, etc takes a Standard Action to use, and you still only get one of those per round. Try to mix your activation abilities up, between Standard, Move, and Swift actions, so that you can get more out of what you have.

2) Focus On One Theme
-Having schizophrenic capabilities just means you'll be more at a loss in combat, despite the increased options, especially if the two sides interfere with each other in normal use. Barbarian/Wizard, though it may sound awesome, generally either gives up most of the benefits from one side of the progression or else is just confused in battle. If it can't be effectively done on one class, it generally isn't worth doing on two.

3) Strengthen Each Other's Weaknesses
-Since you always take the higher HP, BAB, Save, skill points and both skill lists, try to ensure that your secondary class is good at some things that your main one isn't.

4) Remember Your Stats
-Twice as many "classes" means twice as many opportunities for MAD. Make sure your key abilities from both sides are still lined up onto one or two main stats

5) Remember Your Feats
-Feats are the one thing you don't get multiples or increased numbers of normally. This makes prerequisites and feat chains just as hard to squeeze in as normal, more so if you want to Prestige on both sides of the equation (and many do)

6) Dipping Is Easier
-In Gestalt, dipping 1-3 levels on one side for supporting capabilities does not delay or prevent high-level capabilities from your other side. Ftr 2 for feats and proficiencies, Paladin 2-3 for Cha to saves and immunities, Meldshaper levels, etc are all simple and powerful options.

7) Beware Wasting Identical Advantages
-This causes pure waste. A PrC attempting to increase your Wizard caster level on one side and a level of Wizard on the other just lost a caster level benefit. Similar things go for other benefits, such as Uncanny Dodge, high HP/skills, and Proficiencies (not as much a concern as the others).

8) Active/Passive Mix is Typically Best
-Let one side have the abilities which require actions. You can put together cool utility, long-term buffing, bonus feats, and static/reactive abilities on the other side

9) The Very Worst Classes Sometimes Aren't Bad Here
-Monk, with its dominant saves, decent skills, and host of static abilities, is a FAR better choice for support-side levels than it is for single-class. The Expert, despite being an NPC class, notably is able to pick ANY TEN SKILLS as class skills with 6+Int per level, which can be clutch if your prereqs are getting tight. Any class that usually has the phrase "if only it had ___" can easily acquire it. Basically, almost anything can be of benefit to SOMEONE under Gestalt system (other than Commoner)

10) DM Always Has Final Word
-Just like normal, if you are crafting an epic masterpiece of a character but it will outshine the others of the group, expect any sane DM to veto it, or else be ready to throttle back what you can do for the sake of having, you know, fun.


Also worth noting: You can't do Monk//Barbarian due to alignment restrictions. More to come when I have time

[Andrian]

That's the whole point of active/passive, rather than an argument against it.

I was trying to concede the point. Sorry if I was unclear.

As for the classes that give great passive bonuses, I have to advocate for the Master of Many Styles Monk. Think of what a boon Monkey Style can be to any martial class, for example, since it essentially makes you immune to tripping. As a Master of Many Styles, you can pick up a number of styles and use them all the time (and with the right feat, switch between them at will). This was the direction I went with my Sorcerer/Monk build, once again using the Monk as a vehicle to get the Sorcerer safely into threat range for all those wonderful things Sorcerers can do up close. Also, for damage, Arcane Strike + Flurry of Blows is pretty dangerous, assuming you can get your attack bonus high enough, especially if you have something like an Amulet of Mighty Fists to put more punch in your punches (+1d6 elemental damage? Hells yeah!).


Also worth noting: You can't do Monk//Barbarian due to alignment restrictions. More to come when I have time

Martial Artist bypasses that restriction. Trust me, it's doable. Other than that, I generally agree with your advice. One thing I'd add is "Never forget about archetypes"

[AvatarVecna]

Also worth noting: You can't do Monk//Barbarian due to alignment restrictions. More to come when I have time

The Monk class has an archetype called "Martial Artist", which has no alignment restriction to get in the way.

[PsyBomb]

I rarely do Martial Artist builds, so I forgot about that one. The list was originally written for 3.5 as well, but it still applies. Might have to revise it for PF :smallbiggrin:

[Hazrond]

Excuse me? Sir? Didn't I already make a point about this?

*ahem* You're casting stat hardly matters if you're a partial caster! You only would need 16 wis at higher levels, which can be enhanced with levels and items. I would set the Int rather high at first, since it gives skill points.

I also like that you essentially get to double up on the magic power with your weapon through both Arcane Pool and Sacred Weapon, allowing you to spend one on enhancement bonus while the other is spent towards special abilities.

Edit: Also, am i the only one who thinks a Forgepriest Warpriest//Bladebound Magus would be awesome? the black blade could be one of your own creation, and you could make magic gear for the party as well :smallbiggrin:

[Fallenreality]

The reason Summoners are so powerful is because they get to control the majority of pieces on the board. I would hate to GM any campaign with any character who can summon more than one creature at a time, because it's a real nuisance to have to go hunting down all the stats for the various summons, and even more of a nuisance to keep track of so many NPC's. It's a nonlinear progression of GMing difficulty.

When I play Summoner it's usually under the agreement that I'll be the one hunting down stat blocks. Either that or I do something to trade away the Summon Monster SLA. There are a few good 3rd party prestiges for that.

I find what makes them powerful is their action economy. They have an Eidolon able to act separately from them which allows them to focus on a supporting or control roll within the gestalt while the Eidolon does damage. They make a wonderful passive side because of this, and of course due to Synthesist as well. I feel that a Summoner focused on summoning mass amounts of minions is a more active side.

One useful gestalt would be with a paladin so that both you and your Eidolon are in the front line. Or, going back to bard, The bard can either be active, through controlling effects, or passive through buffing everything around him with a hearty song. Summoner is mainly strong due to being able to cover two rolls at once with no diminished effectiveness in either. Or double the effectiveness in one as the Paladin gestalt would give you.

[Jigawatts]

Some good baseline pointers.

Personally, whenever we have done gestalt campaigns, we do them something akin to AD&D multiclassing, where you choose two classes at 1st level and thats what you are for your entire career. I'd rather see that any day than some monstrosity with 5 different classes and 3 different PrCs. Our main DM is kinda old school, and very anti-dipping (a sentiment I share).

[grarrrg]

For all those pointing out "Monk//Barbarian > Martial Artist", I'd like to counter-point out that Bloodrager does NOT have an alignment restriction.
Add in the (no downside) Primalist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/bloodrager/archetypes/paizo---bloodrager-archetypes/primalist) archetype, and you're set.


Personally, I'm not comfortable with the idea of level dipping with Gestalt. If I were going to GM a Gestalt campaign, I'd definitely want to put a limit on the number of different classes you could take (Though of course I'd want to make allowances for Prestige Classes). The rules were pretty unspecific about how that worked, and I'm imagining a character sheet three miles long filled with conditional bonuses and abilities that will never see actual use because of the action economy, relics of the never-ending quest for feats and BAB.

There is nothing against multi-classing with Gestalt by the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm), it works more-or-less the same as it does with 'normal' characters. Which is "you can multiclass".
There is a limit of "one PrC per level" though.

"Normal" characters already have the potential to be crazy multi-classed/dip-monsters, I don't see why Gestalt should be 'special'. You're already asking for a good degree of craziness by allowing 2 classes at once (see also Synthesist//Warpriest > a.k.a. "This IS the biggest boat").

Each table is, of course, free to make their own rulings.

[Larkas]

What really can hurt are the times when more important things overlap, like bonus feats on the same level

Eh? What's the problem with that? Bonus feat//bonus feat = 2 bonus feats. This doesn't work like uncanny dodge, for example.

Also, regarding multiclassing, it doesn't add more complication than using archetypes, really. Just be aware of the limitations (no "theurgic" classes, like Eldritch Knight, for example) and you're golden. Or, if you have to have theurging, just make it take both sides of a gestalt.

[Gemini476]

While there are no restrictions on multiclassing in general, there's a few specifically for PrC's.

A gestalt character can’t combine two prestige classes at any level, although it’s okay to combine a prestige class and a regular class. Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what’s already a high-powered variant. Because it’s possible for gestalt characters to qualify for prestige classes earlier than normal, the game master is entirely justified in toughening the prerequisites of a prestige class so it’s available only after 5th level, even for gestalt characters.
You know, just so people are aware. I saw someone talking about Wizard//Magus/Eldritch Knights and someone else about taking prestige classes on both sides, so I figured that it's apparently not common knowledge.

I'm also pretty sure that LA doesn't work the way people think it does in Gestalt, but that's probably not all that relevant to Pathfinder. I think. The old CR system should let you play a monster gestalted with a class, I think, but the new system from the ARG looks like it probably eats up entire gestalted levels (just like LA did).

I don't remember - did Paizo keep that rule from the playtest where you couldn't multi class the hybrids with their non-hybrid equivalents, like the Arcanist and Wizard/Sorcerer? Because I guess that's a bit of an additional limit to gestalt in that case.

[master4sword]

I don't remember - did Paizo keep that rule from the playtest where you couldn't multi class the hybrids with their non-hybrid equivalents, like the Arcanist and Wizard/Sorcerer? Because I guess that's a bit of an additional limit to gestalt in that case.

No, they thankfully removed that restriction, but they did say something to the effect of "abilities from the hybrid don't stack with abilities of the base", so watch what you try to combine.


While a character can multiclass with these parent classes, this usually results in redundant abilities. Such abilities don't stack unless specified.