Why do tieflings have a cha penalty?

[Deaxsa]

It's always bothered me. Are they notoriously meek? Are they particularly bad at expressing themselves? Is it just a "well, we need to give them a penalty _somewhere_, so we might as well make it charisma"? It just strikes me as wrong that a race whose progenitors are supposedly terrific lawyers and temptresses are given a reason to NOT to try and influence others.

[Chronos]

They seem ... off, somehow. Like there's something not quite right about them.

[ComaVision]

It makes sense to me. Their inherent Cha bonuses have been watered down by Human parents and what's left is signs that they're untrustworthy.

[StoneCipher]

Cha is more than force of personality. Cha is also linked to looks, so the fact that they have hooves and horns might make them outcasts in human society.

[Deaxsa]

It makes sense to me. Their inherent Cha bonuses have been watered down by Human parents and what's left is signs that they're untrustworthy.

Alright, I buy that. But even so, that ought to be an rp consideration, shouldn't it? I mean, ogre mages and rakshasas have a cha bonus, yet it would take pretty dire circumstances to have to trust one of them. So: why the penalty? The lack of bonus makes sense according to your logic, having watered it down (even though that is one of the defining characteristics of demons and devils, not how they are particularly agile), but a penalty? That implies a lack of expressive ability, a lack of influence.


Cha is more than force of personality. Cha is also linked to looks, so the fact that they have hooves and horns might make them outcasts in human society.

[color=blue]Yea man, that atropal is just too sexy.[/color=blue]

Yea, I think the only thing that can be defined as charisma is force of personality or ability to influence others or express concepts. I mean, when was the last time you saw a "top ten sexiest congressmen" list? (Not that I doubt such a list exists, but... C'mon now. Also, that implies I can't make my character look how I want to, that cosmetically, I'm tied to stats.)

[rollforeigninit]

AFB right now but aren't there many variant tieflings that have penalties to other ability scores?

[ComaVision]

Alright, I buy that. But even so, that ought to be an rp consideration, shouldn't it? I mean, ogre mages and rakshasas have a cha bonus, yet it would take pretty dire circumstances to have to trust one of them. So: why the penalty? The lack of bonus makes sense according to your logic, having watered it down (even though that is one of the defining characteristics of demons and devils, not how they are particularly agile), but a penalty? That implies a lack of expressive ability, a lack of influence.

That's a fair point. I think an ogre mage would trust another ogre mage though, and a tiefling wouldn't trust another tiefling (generally speaking).

The tie between fluff and mechanics is certainly tenuous at best.

EDIT: I also think that their dex and int bonuses are due to their outcast nature they've had to become dextrous and conniving. This isn't consistent for all similar bonuses in other species but it is how I rationalize it.

[atemu1234]

AFB right now but aren't there many variant tieflings that have penalties to other ability scores?

I don't remember any.

[StoneCipher]

It could also be that, going along with the watered down theme, the "thing" that makes devils or demons so silver tongued might be less prevalent as you get less and less of that blood in them. That way, there is the visual appearance of a devil or demon, but they lack the expressive ability to overcome those physical traits.

[rollforeigninit]

I am thinking Pathfinder I believe. Sorry if you were 3.5 exclusive.

[Kudaku]

AFB right now but aren't there many variant tieflings that have penalties to other ability scores?

Pathfinder has ten tiefling variants. Most of them do not get charisma penalties and four actually get a charisma bonus.

[jaydubs]

The majority of creatures just find their appearance unnatural. It's an ingrained instinct, like how many people are unnerved by spiders, snakes, or heights.

Alternatively, it's like a D&D version of the uncanny valley, except it only applies in between demons/devils and natural humanoids. Tieflings fall in between the two, which just happens to make them unsettling.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f0/Mori_Uncanny_Valley.svg

[atemu1234]

I am thinking Pathfinder I believe. Sorry if you were 3.5 exclusive.

I'm not, and I don't think this thread is. Still curious as to the source, though.

[Honest Tiefling]

Except that tieflings DO have a silver tongue, as they get a bonus to bluff. I would also imagine that a character touched by the hells would have some ability of their forefathers, so I don't get why they wouldn't have force of personality. After all, the ones who don't probably die.

There is also the hilarious fact that a human makes for a great abyssal/infernal warlock/sorcerer type, but a tiefling does not.

To me, it seems like the charisma penalty is there because rogues are bad, mmmkay, so the tieflings needed to be roguey and it is a convenient dump stat for that type. This is why I prefer the Pathfinder races, so the DM can also choose appropriate tiefling races for the setting/cosmology. (I sorta think that a tiefling in gothic horror should perhaps be a little different then in a more ancient campaign...)

[Blackhawk748]

I'm not, and I don't think this thread is. Still curious as to the source, though.

Blood of Fiends, its a splat for tieflings and its very nice. I even use it in 3.5.

[StoneCipher]

True enough, the bluff part blows certain arguments out of the window. So, I guess we can chalk this one up to WotC thinking more about mechanics than fluff in the Tiefling's case.

[Der_DWSage]

Yeah, it's bugged me too-especially since infernal blood is supposed to be one of those things that'd make you a better sorcerer, not a weaker one, mythologically speaking.

I really do feel like they would've been better represented with a penalty to all Charisma-based skills except Bluff to show that uncanny valley business, as well.

[jedipotter]

Tieflings are made with the idea that there is ''something'' wrong about them that ''others'' won't like. Charisma, like most abilities, is vague...but it covers lots of things. The idea is also a typical tiefling has not had tons of social interactions with anyone. So they have no history of being social.

Just picture poor Baby Tie....the vast majority of parents will say ''don't play with Tie'', so he gets excluded from a lot of childhood activities. Most kids ignore Tie, but worse the ones who don't ignore him pick on him. And things only get worse for Tie in his teens. He might have a small circle of friends, but that is it. Any time he tries to do anything social, he will be ''politely excluded'' .

Take Data from TNG. At the start of TNG he was been in Starfleet 24 years. And watch any season one episode, he is very, very much a ''robot''. And slowly he becomes more ''human''. But now stop and think: what was Data like for the 24 years before the Enterprise? He was a ''robot''. Why? Well, it would seem that was the way everyone in the Federation treated him. Take Data's ''too much information quirk''. In season one Data will commonly ramble on about some topic. Until someone tells him to be quiet. But now think, how did Data develop this quirk? And how did no one in 24 years tell Data it was annoying? It's almost like Data had very little social interaction until he came aboard the Enterprise.

So you get Data, with a - 2 charisma.

[Honest Tiefling]

And Data sucked at lying, so where does his +2 to Bluff come in? And again, if one is going to be touched by the very essence of charismatic beings, I think some of it would rub off on the grandbabies.

It could very be that human genetics and the touch of the abyss don't play nicely, but that isn't how tieflings are portrayed. They are described as being nearly indistinguishably from humans, I think?

[Vhaidara]

Personally, I remove the Tiefling Cha penalty (brings them more on par with Aaisimar), but apply circumstance modifiers to social interaction people who know they are tieflings.
For example
You know this person is a demon spawn. That is scary. Bonus to Intimidate
You know this person is a tiefling, and everyone knows tieflings are vile liars. Bonus to Sense Motive, and much more likely to assume you are lying when you aren't

[Blackhawk748]

Yeah, it's bugged me too-especially since infernal blood is supposed to be one of those things that'd make you a better sorcerer, not a weaker one, mythologically speaking.

I really do feel like they would've been better represented with a penalty to all Charisma-based skills except Bluff to show that uncanny valley business, as well.

Which is why PF had them get a +2 Cha for determining their Spellcasting ability, so it winds up being almost the same.

[Honest Tiefling]

Eh. I wouldn't say that ability is so hot. Humans are still a powerful race, and it nets you basically a +0 to your main stat. It also is not compatible with newer options, such as Bloodrager and Arcanist.

I might be horribly biased, but I perfer Feytouched and Tieflings to have slightly better stats for that +1 LA business.

[Der_DWSage]

Which is why PF had them get a +2 Cha for determining their Spellcasting ability, so it winds up being almost the same.

...And we've already established that the Pathfinder Tiefling at least has variants that don't have a Charisma penalty. We're talking about the 3.5 version here.

But yeah, the Charisma penalty is...odd, to say the least. I could see a wisdom penalty for them, but it really does feel mildly arbitrary when their goody-two-shoes counterpart has no penalty at all.

[jedipotter]

And Data sucked at lying, so where does his +2 to Bluff come in?

Easy....most people think of Data as a pure Robot. So they ''think'' he can't bluff. So he gets a plus when he does that...

[(Un)Inspired]

It's cause they smell like farts.

[Honest Tiefling]

Easy....most people think of Data as a pure Robot. So they ''think'' he can't bluff. So he gets a plus when he does that...

I'd say that other people being stupid is a circumstance bonus, not a racial benefit.


Are you talking about the part of the 3.5E Monster Manual where it says Aside from a demeanor many find disturbing, many tieflings are indistinguishable from humans

Or how about the part where it says, ore or less:

Because they are descended from evil outsiders, those who know of their ancestry immediately consider most tieflings evil and untrustworthy. Not all tieflings are evil or untrustworthy, but enough are that the prejudice tends to cling.

Yes, and I don't see how the later contradicts the former. If I learned that my faithful cat had been replaced with an evil entity from beyond time and space, I'd suspect the crap out of him regardless of how fluffy he is. I think that statement is more implying that people who learn of a tiefling's true nature tend to distrust them because they have heard enough about them having gone on stabbing sprees, helped evil cults or pissed into the holy fountain one too many times, not because of how they look.

[Ravens_cry]

Because they are outcasts, outsiders. Among demons and devils, they are a bunch of much diluted descendents of by-blows of likely centuries ago, and with humanoids, they are a reminder of human contact with the taint of true evil.
Also, the mix of human and fiend features has left them looking somewhat uncanny and unsettling. It's not just the horns and such; it is also their proportions and placement just feels . . . off.
Finally. as outsiders, they would feel frequently put down and made small, as a mistake, a defilement. This would engender low self esteem and, therefore, a lower charisma. While some might rise above this, it still has an effect.

[Honest Tiefling]

Because they are outcasts, outsiders. Among demons and devils, they are a bunch of much diluted descendents of by-blows of likely centuries ago, and with humanoids, they are a reminder of human contact with the taint of true evil.
Also, the mix of human and fiend features has left them looking somewhat uncanny and unsettling. It's not just the horns and such; it is also their proportions and placement just feels . . . off.

Except that isn't supported by their entry in the Monster Manual, where they are indistinguishable from humans in many cases. Also, an elf is going to be an outcast in half-orc society, so a charisma penalty based on other's reactions seems weird.

I do like the fart comment. This is going to be my next tiefling character.

[Ravens_cry]

Except that isn't supported by their entry in the Monster Manual, where they are indistinguishable from humans in many cases. Also, an elf is going to be an outcast in half-orc society, so a charisma penalty based on other's reactions seems weird.
To conscious eyes, certainly. Also, I did an edit that covers that.

[Honest Tiefling]

Huh. That part does make a lot of sense, that tieflings after a lifetime of abuse, abandonment and violence might not have the best self-esteem.

[Bulldog Psion]

It's because they're creepy, I suppose. Some kind of devil lord might have charisma by the buckets because of their sheer presence and force of personality, and because you don't expect them to be anything but a devil.

A tiefling, on the other hand, is sort of human, but deformed in a malevolent way. Eyes too big or too small or alien-looking, small spines or patches of scales growing here and there, a bit of distorted, lumpy horn poking through their hair on one side like some kind of cancerous growth, weird-looking teeth and tongue, an unpleasant and threatening odor like brimstone or that musky predator-smell...

Not so much the sexy incubus/succubus type, or something grim and commanding, but something diseased with evil, a rot that mars their flesh in small but disgusting ways and extends right into their soul.

[dantiesilva]

I believe in one of the forgotten realms books there is a tiefling variant. Fehir I believe they are called. The fluff is that they are the ancestors of a powerful elven house that dealt and bred alot with devils willingly. They are a very high la though.

[jedipotter]

I'd say that other people being stupid is a circumstance bonus, not a racial benefit.

Well potato, potatoe.....

I can see a race getting the ''everyone thinks they can't bluff'' as a racial bonus.....


Except that isn't supported by their entry in the Monster Manual, where they are indistinguishable from humans in many cases. Also, an elf is going to be an outcast in half-orc society, so a charisma penalty based on other's reactions seems weird.



Are you talking about the part of the 3.5E Monster Manual where it says Aside from a demeanor many find disturbing, many tieflings are indistinguishable from humans

Or how about the part where it says, ore or less:

Because they are descended from evil outsiders, those who know of their ancestry immediately consider most tieflings evil and untrustworthy. Not all tieflings are evil or untrustworthy, but enough are that the prejudice tends to cling.

[Honest Tiefling]

Fey'ri, and they are a type of planetouched. (I don't know what the heck counts as a tiefling, any planetouched of fiend?) And they didn't interbreed with devils, but demons.

[jedipotter]

Yes, and I don't see how the later contradicts the former. If I learned that my faithful cat had been replaced with an evil entity from beyond time and space, I'd suspect the crap out of him regardless of how fluffy he is. I think that statement is more implying that people who learn of a tiefling's true nature tend to distrust them because they have heard enough about them having gone on stabbing sprees, helped evil cults or pissed into the holy fountain one too many times, not because of how they look.

Well, charisma is not just ''how a character looks'' it's a lot of other things too.

Tieflings make everyone a bit uneasy, so they have a Cha of -2. Look at it like ''a tiefling has to try twice as hard to be charismatic as a human does''. They can still do it, with lots of effort, but they always have the shadow hanging over them.

And keep in mind Default D&D is black and white. Demons are Evil. Tieflings are Demon spawn, so they are Evil. D&D folks don't do the ''gray'' of I'll get to know the guy and judge him as an individual. They are more likely to grab the torches and pitchforks and hunt down the demon spawn.

[Honest Tiefling]

Actually, they are Usually Evil, so even a good aligned tiefling could exist. And even the party you quoted said they are not all evil. And yes, tieflings, regardless of stats in most settings should probably expect the pitchfork treatment, but that isn't even what I meant. What I meant is that a tiefling might not be identified immediately, but since they have a bad rep, they are likely to be attacked once known, but that some are probably capable of disguising themselves as humans.

Also, would a tiefling even make an evil cult uneasy? I think by some arguments yes, others, no.

[Ravens_cry]

Also, would a tiefling even make an evil cult uneasy? I think by some arguments yes, others, no.
Just because you're evil doesn't mean you trust evil people more. On the contrary, you know what bastards they can be.
Furthermore , the idea that evil people would be more accepting of the unusual and strange is its own can of worms.
It was codified in 1st edition AD&D Unearthed Arcana's comeliness stat, but it is not something I think should ever be ported forward.

[Flickerdart]

Tiefling ancestors are mighty fiends, surrounded by underlings and generally not afraid to throw their weight around. Tieflings have inherited the offensive demeanor of those fiends, but not any of the major power you need to back up the swagger. So they can regain the social skills of their ancestors if they work at it (read: put ranks into skills) but otherwise they come across as wannabe bad boys.

[Deaxsa]

Okay. The thread has advanced quite a bit recently, so there's a lot to respond to.

First of all: I don't buy the uncanny valley argument. Why? Because half-fiend. Here we have a template with basically identical fluff to the teifling, and yet... No charisma penalty.

Second: all of the "charisma really isn't a weak stat for these guys, no really" bonuses aren't really bonuses at all, but mitigating factors. The teifling hasn't got a +2 to bluff, it's got a +1. Not exactly much to write home about. And the pf casting stat "buff" is less of a buff and more of a return to mediocrity. Even many of the pf options for other teifling a are similarly cursed with -2 cha and mitigating buffs.

To be honest, it feels like a dev decided he wanted to play a demon-flavored rogue and created the race to suit his needs at the time.

[Ravens_cry]

Okay. The thread has advanced quite a bit recently, so there's a lot to respond to.

First of all: I don't buy the uncanny valley argument. Why? Because half-fiend. Here we have a template with basically identical fluff to the teifling, and yet... No charisma penalty.

Half-Fiends have the power to back it up, at least as a normal fish in a tiny pond, with a certain grandeur and fiendish majesty. Tiefling are the unwanted bastard that reminds people of an ancient shame.

[TypoNinja]

Okay. The thread has advanced quite a bit recently, so there's a lot to respond to.

First of all: I don't buy the uncanny valley argument. Why? Because half-fiend. Here we have a template with basically identical fluff to the teifling, and yet... No charisma penalty.

Second: all of the "charisma really isn't a weak stat for these guys, no really" bonuses aren't really bonuses at all, but mitigating factors. The teifling hasn't got a +2 to bluff, it's got a +1. Not exactly much to write home about. And the pf casting stat "buff" is less of a buff and more of a return to mediocrity. Even many of the pf options for other teifling a are similarly cursed with -2 cha and mitigating buffs.

To be honest, it feels like a dev decided he wanted to play a demon-flavored rogue and created the race to suit his needs at the time.

Tiefling vs Half Fiend gets even stranger when you look at taking the savage progression that allows a tiefling to turn into one.

If you take that option you end up with a character that is 2 Cha weaker than if you'd just started as a Half Fiend, since you go from penalty to bonus. Assimar to Half Celestial has no such issues.

[Honest Tiefling]

So why would the tiefling inherit the pride, but not the smarts/wisdom/cunning/whatever to not act like a arrogant jerk all of the time?

[atemu1234]

Okay. The thread has advanced quite a bit recently, so there's a lot to respond to.

First of all: I don't buy the uncanny valley argument. Why? Because half-fiend. Here we have a template with basically identical fluff to the teifling, and yet... No charisma penalty.

Second: all of the "charisma really isn't a weak stat for these guys, no really" bonuses aren't really bonuses at all, but mitigating factors. The teifling hasn't got a +2 to bluff, it's got a +1. Not exactly much to write home about. And the pf casting stat "buff" is less of a buff and more of a return to mediocrity. Even many of the pf options for other teifling a are similarly cursed with -2 cha and mitigating buffs.

To be honest, it feels like a dev decided he wanted to play a demon-flavored rogue and created the race to suit his needs at the time.

Uncanny valley requires *just* enough humanity to qualify, which half-fiend shoots right past.

[Deaxsa]

Tiefling ancestors are mighty fiends, surrounded by underlings and generally not afraid to throw their weight around. Tieflings have inherited the offensive demeanor of those fiends, but not any of the major power you need to back up the swagger. So they can regain the social skills of their ancestors if they work at it (read: put ranks into skills) but otherwise they come across as wannabe bad boys.

is this why people don't like paladins acting all high and mighty, too?

More seriously, I don't think that your point is very valid, because if I really wanted to play someone who was completely mediocre and watered down to the point where I'd have none of the demonic power that my forbears had, I'd play a human and modify my backstory to include some demonic influence. However, teiflings exist because they are different enough from humans (and close enough to demons) to merit different stats. Not different enough from humans to represent the complete(okay, partial. They do have an int bonus) lack of genetic continuity from one generation to the next.

[Yora]

In the 2nd Edition Planescape campaign setting (not sure if they were ever a PC race before that), Thieflings got +1 to Int and Cha and -1 to Str and Wis. (Everyone only got +1 and -1 back then, so converted to 3rd edition, the modifiers would be +2 and -2 respectively.)

[Honest Tiefling]

Not sure about 5th, but 4th also has them at +2 Charisma and +2 Intelligence.

[ComaVision]

Not sure about 5th, but 4th also has them at +2 Charisma and +2 Intelligence.

That would certainly make them a more reasonable comparison to Aasimars.

[Flickerdart]

is this why people don't like paladins acting all high and mighty, too?

More seriously, I don't think that your point is very valid, because if I really wanted to play someone who was completely mediocre and watered down to the point where I'd have none of the demonic power that my forbears had, I'd play a human and modify my backstory to include some demonic influence. However, teiflings exist because they are different enough from humans (and close enough to demons) to merit different stats. Not different enough from humans to represent the complete(okay, partial. They do have an int bonus) lack of genetic continuity from one generation to the next.
But that's what tieflings are - watered down demons. If you want to be closer to demons than to humans, you suck up the LA for Half-Fiend.


The teifling hasn't got a +2 to bluff, it's got a +1. Not exactly much to write home about.
+1 to Bluff isn't much to write home about, but -1 to CHA mod is enough to complain endlessly about?

[Ravens_cry]

Not sure about 5th, but 4th also has them at +2 Charisma and +2 Intelligence.

Fourth edition tieflings, at least by default, are the children of disposed nobles of a fallen evil empire. They are going to have some of that 'My father/grandfather once ruled you peasants!' aura of self-entitlement.

[Deaxsa]

Half-Fiends have the power to back it up, at least as a normal fish in a tiny pond, with a certain grandeur and fiendish majesty. Tiefling are the unwanted bastard that reminds people of an ancient shame.

So how come other half-"insert powerful ancestor here" races don't have the same issue? What about aasimar? Or half elves? Neither of those inherit a perceived lack of force or character. And that's the crux of the problem, I think. That the -2 charisma represents a perceived lack of trustworthyness(which should really only affect the diplomacy skill anyways). Also, no one is saying that the teifling should be as powerful as one of its demonic ancestors. The succubus gets, what? +16 cha? The Erinyes is similar: +10 cha (heck, even an imp has +4, more than the half-fiend template). It's just that swapping directions from "gigantic bonus" to "inherent penalty" seems uncalled for, thus the confusion, thus the thread.

[Flickerdart]

So how come other half-"insert powerful ancestor here" races don't have the same issue?
Because Celestials don't try to bully and coerce and trick people? You're much more likely to like someone who's angelic than someone who's demonic.

[TIPOT]

Can't you use exactly the same arguments for half-orc's having a charisma penalty for as to why tieflings do? I don't really see why it's a problem.

[Honest Tiefling]

Because Celestials don't try to bully and coerce and trick people? You're much more likely to like someone who's angelic than someone who's demonic.

What about chaotic good ones? Sure intimidation isn't great, but its probably better then resorting to stabbing them all of the time. And I would say that you're only going to like the angelic person more then the demonic depending on your sense motive. Perhaps I view fiends differently, but I imagine quite a few are appealing (and not just succubus) on some basic level because evil is tempting, its nice, its fantastic! That's why it is a vice.

[Ravens_cry]

The succubus gets, what? +16 cha? The Erinyes is similar: +10 cha (heck, even an imp has +4, more than the half-fiend template). It's just that swapping directions from "gigantic bonus" to "inherent penalty" seems uncalled for, thus the confusion, thus the thread.
Even an imp is a one in a million individual who rose up from the ranks of the lemures to become a more powerful devil. That's certainly going to take unusual force of personality. As for Aasimar and half-elves, their defining ancestors tend to be a little better received, at least, in most worlds, so they aren't going to have quite the put down Tiefling do. In the case of Aasimar, it's generally the opposite.

[Honest Tiefling]

I still don't like the idea of Charisma being dependent on external forces. You could have a world where they worship devils after all. Also, I think the racial bonuses should be about the character, not what other people are doing.

[jedipotter]

I still don't like the idea of Charisma being dependent on external forces. You could have a world where they worship devils after all. Also, I think the racial bonuses should be about the character, not what other people are doing.

But then they are not ''racial'' bonuses....they are ''character'' bonuses.

And it takes you down the road to Blandville


A player of a Tiefling can pick any two ability scores to be a +2 and must pick one ability score to be a -2.

[Honest Tiefling]

Why are they character bonuses if they have nothing to do with the character, but have everything to do with other characters?

[the_david]

In 2nd ed. AD&D tieflings had +1 int, +1 cha, -1 str, -1 wis. 3.5 tieflings are a bit weird.

[jedipotter]

Why are they character bonuses if they have nothing to do with the character, but have everything to do with other characters?

It's reverse engineering.

It's like if you want to make a target harder to hit you can add to its AC or give attackers a minus to hit....but it's same thing.

It's kinda awkward to make crazy new rules like ''a Tieflings Charisma takes a reduction of two any time the character attempts to do anything using the ability or the ability bonus. So if a Tiefling has a Charisma of 18, they must always reduce it by 2, so it is always 16 any time they use it.

[Honest Tiefling]

So. Being disliked in general somehow reduces warlock powers and sorcererous ability. This is why I actually thought the house rule earlier that the interactions of NPCs will be greatly influenced by the tiefling's heritage to be far more sensible, because that is what the game is trying to do.

Admittedly, sorcerers that depend on being liked and admired either sounds silly or amusing...

[Flickerdart]

So. Being disliked in general somehow reduces warlock powers and sorcererous ability. This is why I actually thought the house rule earlier that the interactions of NPCs will be greatly influenced by the tiefling's heritage to be far more sensible, because that is what the game is trying to do.

Admittedly, sorcerers that depend on being liked and admired either sounds silly or amusing...
It's not about being liked directly. But as a tiefling is brought up, society impresses on them that they are less for being a half-breed, a tainted race whose blood is poisoned by evil. Since invocations and sorcerous powers depend on the force of personality for their manifestation (though warlock powers far less so), a tiefling makes a poor sorcerer. Every time he casts a spell by instinct, a small part of him thinks, what if I fail? What if it's not good enough? What if all those people were right? Conversely, their native cleverness makes casting wizard spells easier, and Charisma doesn't come into it because these are rules that every other wizard has to follow if they're going to turn bat poop into explosions.

[jedipotter]

So. Being disliked in general somehow reduces warlock powers and sorcererous ability. ..

If your going with ''personality'' somehow effects your magic, then yes.

I can see a ''less social'' and ''less forceful personality'' person having trouble doing magic...

This is like: ''everyone hates what I say''. Ok, two choices: The low charisma person just does nothing. The high charisma person says it anyway.....even if some people hate it.


Ever watch Charmed? The Sisters powers were tied to their Emotions. They needed to be in the right place ''emotionally'' for their powers to work. When a sister got all upset about her new shoes, her power would fizzle....

[Flickerdart]

This is like: ''everyone hates what I say''. Ok, two choices: The low charisma person just does nothing. The high charisma person says it anyway.....even if some people hate it.
What? No. Part of having low Charisma is saying things that shouldn't be said; high CHA characters have the social awareness to keep quiet when they need to be.

[RoboEmperor]

Part of CHA is how likeable you are to other people
Everyone hates tieflings
Voila.

Tieflings are less social than others in the fluff, after all, their demon blood makes them want to kill stuff.

Also, part of CHA is beauty, and having scaly skin + weirdo hair + horns + rat tail, etc.

The creators just wanted to show Tieflings suck at social situations.

But yeah it doesn't make sense, because I think Tieflings have very powerful personalities.

[Flickerdart]

But yeah it doesn't make sense, because I think Tieflings have very powerful personalities.
The great part about having codified mechanics is that what you think doesn't matter. RAW and RAI and in the fluff, tieflings have marginally less of a force of personality than most races. Any tiefling you can name who happened to have a great Charisma could have had a greater one if he were some other race, in the same way that you can have dwarf or orc sorcerers who struggle to overcome their race's abrasiveness.

[Deaxsa]

+1 to Bluff isn't much to write home about, but -1 to CHA mod is enough to complain endlessly about?
Look, if you want to have a discussion, fine, but don't try to enter the discussion, and when someone disagrees with you, start complaining because you disagree with the premise if the discussion that you entered. Quite frankly, i don't appreciate it. No one forced you to post a reply or even read this thread.

And besides, this discussion is still ongoing because (among other things) it's unresolved: no clear answer to the op has come up.

Even an imp is a one in a million individual who rose up from the ranks of the lemures to become a more powerful devil. That's certainly going to take unusual force of personality. As for Aasimar and half-elves, their defining ancestors tend to be a little better received, at least, in most worlds, so they aren't going to have quite the put down Tiefling do. In the case of Aasimar, it's generally the opposite.

Wait, are you saying that lemurs frequently have sexual escapades on the material plane? :smalleek: I can't believe that lemures are the progenitors of large quantities of teiflings, though given the stat array of a teifling, it seems to be the most logical solution...

Can't you use exactly the same arguments for half-orc's having a charisma penalty for as to why tieflings do? I don't really see why it's a problem.
Because the perceived problem is that half-orcs would hypothetically have a charisma BONUS, and fluff supporting it (weakly), while it would seem logical for them to inherit the charisma penalty. That's why it's weird, at least to me.

[jedipotter]

What? No. Part of having low Charisma is saying things that shouldn't be said; high CHA characters have the social awareness to keep quiet when they need to be.

Your going to ''Textbook'' charisma, or even too ''King of Wishfull Thinking''......real charisma is much, much, much more dynamic then that.

It's seeing charisma as one sided: Low charisma equals bad and everything one type or group or sect of people don't like. And high charisma is knowing how to be a good conformer to whatever ''they'' tell you to do.

Take honesty. In one view only a ''low charisma person'' would ever say anything ''bad'' or ''negative'' in public and the ''high charisma person would either say nothing or outright lie''. So note the ''low charisma '' person is truthful, and the ''high charisma'' person...well they might very well be lying if they say anything. So maybe that person who lies all the time does not have such a high charisma after all...

Then take my view. I'm honest. Brutally Honest. If I say it, even more so in public, I think it's true. There is no need to guess as to if I was lying or not: I was not. And I'll say it no matter how it makes you feel or if it upsets you or whatever else. I speak the truth. And some people don't like it/don't understand/want to be lied too. But some people really like the brutal honesty. Some people like to hear the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

And it's the high charisma, the knowing and being confidant in ones self, that lets a person be socially honest.

[Flickerdart]

Look, if you want to have a discussion, fine, but don't try to enter the discussion, and when someone disagrees with you, start complaining because you disagree with the premise if the discussion that you entered. Quite frankly, i don't appreciate it. No one forced you to post a reply or even read this thread.
Uhh...what? How does that refute my counter-argument that if +1 is insignificant, so is -1?

{scrubbed}

[jedipotter]

{scrubbed}

It's ok...I know I am.....It's good to be me.

[Psyren]

While PF has many variant Tieflings, the basic version does still have the Cha penalty. PF explains it by saying they are "inherently strange and unnerving" (B1, ARG.) Charisma being what it is - i.e. force of personality - it could be that the Tiefling's attempts to exert that force are muted or diluted by their generally off-putting aura.

[Deaxsa]

It's not about being liked directly. But as a tiefling is brought up, society impresses on them that they are less for being a half-breed, a tainted race whose blood is poisoned by evil. Since invocations and sorcerous powers depend on the force of personality for their manifestation (though warlock powers far less so), a tiefling makes a poor sorcerer. Every time he casts a spell by instinct, a small part of him thinks, what if I fail? What if it's not good enough? What if all those people were right? Conversely, their native cleverness makes casting wizard spells easier, and Charisma doesn't come into it because these are rules that every other wizard has to follow if they're going to turn bat poop into explosions.

Okay, but flickerdart: does that not seem arbitrarily convoluted and specific compared to every other race out there? Even the aasimar does not go into such detail, and the aasimar is the teiflings counterpart. Status quo is god, and your explanation does not fit status quo, therefore, I find it less convincing than perhaps it would be if such detail and thought _were_ status quo. Also, given the simple way this stuff normally works, you'd be insinuating that demons and evils also have a lack of self-esteem that would lead to low charisma scores as a whole. But that's not the case: you yourself said that the rules codify things for us, and one thing they define for us is that the progenitors of teiflings (assuming mid-to-high power demons and devils, as well as humans) have explicitly stated (or statted, if you prefer) HIGH charisma scores.

[Solaris]

{scrubbed}

Well, he is, if you rewrite the definition of 'Charisma' the way he did to mean 'has strong opinions regardless of contrary evidence' instead of the definitions D&D uses.

I've always seen the tiefling's Charisma penalty as being related to how wrong they were - the uncanny valley argument is a good one, I think, and extending it to the tiefling's subtly twisted personality is appropriate. The tiefling just isn't good at relating to people.
That, and they smell like brimstone.
Half-fiends escape it because they're outside the uncanny valley - they're too far from human-like in personality or appearance to suffer for it. Tieflings fall square in it, and so they not only come off as wrong to others, their mental and physical components don't really work well together even internally to the tiefling itself. A good-aligned tiefling might have some serious homicidal urges, for example, while an evil-aligned one might be Black Mage.

I'd have given them a penalty to Wisdom, though, rather than Charisma - or no penalty at all, 'cause they're a LA +1 race.

[jedipotter]

Well, he is, if you rewrite the definition of 'Charisma' the way he did to mean 'has strong opinions regardless of contrary evidence' instead of the definitions D&D uses.



Well, charisma does not care about ''evidence'' or ''facts''......that is for Intelligence.


Remember charisma is not good or evil.....the tyrant is just as charismatic as the saint.

[Deaxsa]

Uhh...what? How does that refute my counter-argument that if +1 is insignificant, so is -1.

It doesn't, I was upset that you (seemingly, pardon if you meant something else) had such a poor attitude abut this "endless discussion" which you willingly entered, but then decided to complain about. We don't need that.

And as far as refuting your +1/-1 point, I can do that easily: you see, +1 bluff is completely incomparable to +2 charisma. One is a 5% increase in success on one skill, the iother, while admittedly also a 5% increase as well, affects so many more numbers, that it's actually not insignificant, and god forbid the character is also a charisma caster (because, you know, that's not like every other caster), because than it means even more. Charisma can be one of the most important stats in the game, and comparing it to a simple +1 bluff is a gross understatement. So, not only do I have a question, I have a question that matters, at least when a teifling is played.

[Sith_Happens]

The majority of creatures just find their appearance unnatural. It's an ingrained instinct, like how many people are unnerved by spiders, snakes, or heights.

Alternatively, it's like a D&D version of the uncanny valley, except it only applies in between demons/devils and natural humanoids. Tieflings fall in between the two, which just happens to make them unsettling.


It's cause they smell like farts.

What I want to know is why either of these things makes it harder to use wands.:smalltongue:

[Flickerdart]

What I want to know is why either of these things makes it harder to use wands.:smalltongue:
Wands are actually massive racists.

[Ravens_cry]

Wait, are you saying that lemurs frequently have sexual escapades on the material plane? :smalleek: I can't believe that lemures are the progenitors of large quantities of teiflings, though given the stat array of a teifling, it seems to be the most logical solution...


Ah. no, that's not what I said. What I meant was, that elves and angels are generally better received than devils, so half elves and aasimar don't face the same level of prejudice and abuse tiefling do, so their self-esteem isn't mangled.
Still, I can see how it'd work.
Wizard summons succubus for obvious reasons, and succubus is all 'Ah, let me set you up with my sister instead!'
'She's got a great um, with, um . . . Anyway, have fun with this, kthxbye!'
A Lemure with a wig appears in the summoning circle, and the rest is history.

[RoboEmperor]

Just say demon blood mixed with human blood results in a creature with very weak force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness.

Given the evidence, this becomes a law. So if a person with a very strong force of personality fathers a tiefling, the tiefling will have a weaker force of personality than the parent because demon blood makes it so.

[Marlowe]

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[Sith_Happens]

Wands are actually massive racists.

Considering that "Emulate a race" is DC 25... I think you might be right.

[Curmudgeon]

It all comes down to a massive conspiracy on the part of Wizards of the Coast to keep Rogues from having nice things. You want your Rogue to use their Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, Intimidate, Perform, and Use Magic Device class skills? WotC wants you to suffer. :smallfurious: Rogues have almost as many Charisma-based class skills as they do Dexterity-based skills (7 vs. 8).

[RoboEmperor]

It all comes down to a massive conspiracy on the part of Wizards of the Coast to keep Rogues from having nice things. You want your Rogue to use their Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, Intimidate, Perform, and Use Magic Device class skills? WotC wants you to suffer. :smallfurious: Rogues have almost as many Charisma-based class skills as they do Dexterity-based skills (7 vs. 8).

You also forgot int

[atemu1234]

You also forgot int

Not to mention in combat dexterity and intelligence will be far more useful.

[Curmudgeon]

You also forgot int
No, I know exactly how many Intelligence-based skills a Rogue has. It's just off-topic in a thread about Charisma.

[Sam K]

Tieflings have a cha penalty because WotC have a huge penalty on their "Craft: consistent rules" check. It's just one of the many things that doesn't make sense in 3.5. I doubt WotC had any real idea what charisma was suppose to be. Sometimes it's charm, sometimes it's "force of personality", sometimes it's looks (except is isn't, because many horribly ugly things have high cha).

I don't like the social outcast explanation, because it forces every tiefling into the same background. While tieflings in a "normal" human kingdom may face that, tieflings raised in magocracies where... interaction with outsiders is more accepted likely wouldn't face much stigma. Lesser planetouched tieflings would actually be valuable as their bonuses make them pretty good wizards. Also, sorcerers (and to some extent warlocks) are supposedly "feared and reviled" and they run on charisma. Clearly, being an outcast doesn't seem to make you dull.

For justification of the cha penalty, I'd go with the fact that tieflings have just enough fiend blood to give them a conflicting nature. They rarely have strong personalities because they always have that little voice in the back of their head undermining them and second guessing them. Having just that tiny bit of fiends blood doesn't give them the charisma of fiends, it just interferes with their natural charisma.

Still not crazy about this because of the whole "infernal blood makes you a worse warlock" thing, though.

[Marlowe]

Hmmm. Well, based on what's been said, I'm definitely going to consider letting players who want to play a Tiefling switch the Chr penalty to Wis or even maybe remove it completely in future. It pointlessly handicaps them in areas where I think they should be good (a Tiefling should be a better Warlock than most, not a worse one). And ESPECIALLY since, and this somewhat contradicts the little spiel I made above, the Halfling, Elf and Dwarf versions of Tieflings (Wispling, Fey'ri, Maeluth) don't have a Charisma penalty compared with the regular versions of those races.

[Sith_Happens]

Hmmm. Well, based on what's been said, I'm definitely going to consider letting players who want to play a Tiefling switch the Chr penalty to Wis or even maybe remove it completely in future.

Definitely go with "remove completely," Aasimars ain't got no penalty and that ain't fair.

[Honest Tiefling]

Definitely go with "remove completely," Aasimars ain't got no penalty and that ain't fair.

I agree, (Aasimar seem decent for the +1 LA, not OP, not bad), but I think if one goes that far, I'd considered balancing other races. Genasi are...Pretty rubbish and get it far worse then tieflings. Any argument that makes a lick of sense for a Charisma penalty for tieflings doesn't really make sense for them. I think at the point where people with damp skin are setting people off other races such as elves, halflings and gnomes are pretty much kill on sight as well.

[Marlowe]

Definitely go with "remove completely," Aasimars ain't got no penalty and that ain't fair.

https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/252x373q90/661/QTvBWd.jpg

EDIT: Hey, Honest Tiefling. Where were you when this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?388712-Genasi-and-level-adjustment) was happening?:smallbiggrin:

[Flickerdart]

Definitely go with "remove completely," Aasimars ain't got no penalty and that ain't fair.
Dex (Init, AC, Reflex, ranged attacks) and Int (Skill points) are much more useful than Wis (Will saves) and Cha (nothing at all) though.

[Sith_Happens]

Dex (Init, AC, Reflex, ranged attacks) and Int (Skill points) are much more useful than Wis (Will saves) and Cha (nothing at all) though.

Debatable at best, Widsom and Charisma are both far more common as casting stats than Intelligence.

[Flickerdart]

Debatable at best, Widsom and Charisma are both far more common as casting stats than Intelligence.
If you're a caster, then you aren't taking Tiefling anyway because of the LA.

And INT-based casting is a lot better than WIS-based casting. CHA based casting doesn't even come close and isn't worth discussing.

[Curmudgeon]

Dex (Init, AC, Reflex, ranged attacks) and Int (Skill points) are much more useful than Wis (Will saves) and Cha (nothing at all) though.
I've already pointed out the large number of Charisma-based skills for the Rogue (Tiefling favored class). I'll add that Will is the base for perception skills, some of the more important ones to Rogues (who don't ever want to miss acting in a surprise round). Sith_Happens mentioned that both of the Aasimar ability boosts are to spellcasting stats, which makes that race an advantageous choice for many character classes.

"Much more useful" presupposes that you have some preferred build characteristics in mind rather than evaluating the racial modifiers per se.

[RoboEmperor]

If you're a caster, then you aren't taking Tiefling anyway because of the LA.

And INT-based casting is a lot better than WIS-based casting. CHA based casting doesn't even come close and isn't worth discussing.

Huh? Noncasters don't need to worry about LA? o_O
If anything I thought it'd be more likely that casters would choose to be a level behind for a higher spell DC rather than mundanes giving up hit die and class features for higher skills.

[Marlowe]

Wisdom is mechanically a powerful stat. You'll always be making Spot/Listen checks and probably Will Saves. Possibly Survival checks as well. How well you do on those can have major effects. It's a passive stat, like Constitution. Which means that there's less you do to weaponize it than the likes of Intelligence and Charisma but which also means its effects are ubiquitous.

In any event, arguing over which stats are more useful makes no sense without a discussion of what builds and classes we're thinking of. Some builds want one, some want the other, and some want at least two out of three.

[Sam K]

Huh? Noncasters don't need to worry about LA? o_O
If anything I thought it'd be more likely that casters would choose to be a level behind for a higher spell DC rather than mundanes giving up hit die and class features for higher skills.

Non-casters can come out ahead by delaying level progression for stats and racial abilities, assuming the stats and racial abilities are good enough. BAB and HP can be compensated for by str and con, and while delaying some class abilities can be painful, good enough stats can often make up for the loss (atleast in combat). There are very few things worth losing a caster level for: in both power and flexibility, higher level spells comes out way ahead of a couple of points of DC on your existing spells, or some minor racial abilities (that you can easily duplicate with spells anyway). Compare a ECL 5 tiefling wizard to the human: the human will have access to lvl 3 spells, which gives him more spells than the tiefling, and access to spells with higher DC as well. Not to mention many spells do not allow saves.

[Thurbane]

I always assumed it was because they are "eeevil", so they have to have more penalties than an Aasimar.

Or something equally stupid.

[Honest Tiefling]

A wisdom bonus isn't the best for a paladin, but I assume it still helps. Their stats make them very good clerics, even if many builds dump Charisma. The tiefling on the other hand makes for a decent wizard/archivist, so I guess its pick your flavor of tier 1 caster, honestly.