Help with effigies

[DoctorGlock]

Hi y'all

I'm playing an artificer with effigy crafting in a game right now, mostly because I had a thing for tank combat and it seemed a good way to replicate it once you add a dude with wands shooting fireballs on its back.

Looking forward I want to be able to make a very fast flying one, but I don't know all the various creatures out there to chose from. So, with the following criteria, can you suggest some monsters to duplicate?

-low HD, under 10 HD preferred.
-I get 1 template to add. The DM let me take monster of legend on my tanks, so roughly +3 CR seems to be acceptable.
-preferably large, I want it to be party transport and have enough hardpoints to provide close air support
-At least 200 airspeed post templating

I know some medium dragons out there fit the bill for HD and speed, clocking in at 150 with some bad maneuvering, and I know some templates double move speed (I don't know which), but those can't carry a full party. What should I make?

[Coidzor]

In Core, Very Young Red Dragons have 10 HD and a 150' (poor) fly speed and are Large sized. Very Young Gold Dragons have similar stats but 11 HD and have a 200' (poor) fly speed, so you wouldn't need to double their fly speed, but you might want to if you get into a Red Hand of Doom sort of situation where traveling overland against the clock is a factor and you can't just teleport.

Those kinds of fly speeds steer you away from the standard flying mounts like Dire Bats or Dire Hawks and more towards Dragons though, I think. The next place to look would be non-Core dragons, I think.

I don't believe a single Large creature can carry the whole party unless you have a party of Small or Tiny characters, though. You'd want to go up to Huge for something that can carry more than 2 Medium-sized characters, I think.

[malonkey1]

In Core, Very Young Red Dragons have 10 HD and a 150' (poor) fly speed and are Large sized. Very Young Gold Dragons have similar stats but 11 HD and have a 200' (poor) fly speed, so you wouldn't need to double their fly speed, but you might want to if you get into a Red Hand of Doom sort of situation where traveling overland against the clock is a factor and you can't just teleport.

Those kinds of fly speeds steer you away from the standard flying mounts like Dire Bats or Dire Hawks and more towards Dragons though, I think. The next place to look would be non-Core dragons, I think.

I don't believe a single Large creature can carry the whole party unless you have a party of Small or Tiny characters, though. You'd want to go up to Huge for something that can carry more than 2 Medium-sized characters, I think.

Or he could use a wand of reduce person on his party before takeoff.

[Flickerdart]

Or he could use a wand of reduce person on his party before takeoff.
Or portable holes, or a neutrally buoyant chariot.

[DoctorGlock]

While technically doable, it kind of ruins the cool factor of paratrooping into combat from a robo-dragon. I can't believe I checked everywhere but core first though. The question then becomes what lone template to use to make the dragon a bit tankier, being that disintegrate can one shot any effigy, and I lose every single SU and con based ability.

[Coidzor]

Or he could use a wand of reduce person on his party before takeoff.

Tactically, sure, but not so much for strategery/distance travel.

[sleepyphoenixx]

While technically doable, it kind of ruins the cool factor of paratrooping into combat from a robo-dragon. I can't believe I checked everywhere but core first though. The question then becomes what lone template to use to make the dragon a bit tankier, being that disintegrate can one shot any effigy, and I lose every single SU and con based ability.

A template won't help much since you'd lose any benefit beyond ability boosts anyway. To protect against Disintigrate the cheapest solution is probably a Necklace of Natural Weapons (SS) with the Spellblade quality (PGtF) keyed to Disintigrate.

There really aren't that many spells that can seriously endanger a construct, and a lot of the more common ones can be taken care of with Resist Energy, Energy Immunity and the like. The rest can be covered with a Ring of Spell Battle (on you) to counter/redirect anything overly dangerous.

For really good protection you could also build for counterspelling which can be pretty effective in its own right. Just using spells like Battlemagic Perception (HoB) and Spellcaster's Bane (CM) can already be pretty useful even if you don't specialize in it.

[Crake]

The shadow template would give it 1.5x speed, making it go even faster, along with shadow blend, though that doesn't work in direct sunlight, so it would only work at night, when the dragon is presumably getting total concealment from lack of light up in the sky anyway, but it could be useful for midnight stealth missions?

[ace rooster]

Do you want high fly speeds for tactical reasons or overland movement? Constructs have no constitution score, and so can run indefinately. They can cover 4 times the ground their speed would suggest, and are not held to 8 hour travel days. They are able to run all day resulting in almost 12 times the ground covered per day over a non construct based force (without damage). To outrun them over a timescale of mins you need to have at least double their movement speed, so only the fastest of dragons can outrun a construct with a fly speed of 120ft.

This being said my suggestion would be a half dragon huge centipede. Only has a fly speed of 80ft, but only 6 HD. 1500lb of useful load is easily enough for 4 medium characters with armaments, or 8 small characters. Is that enough hardpoints? I think arms and equipment has rules for howdahs that are applicable. More of a light gunship than a fast attack craft, but could be quite cool. In a similar vein a half dragon elephant could be hilarious, being more of a heavy gunship (almost 10000lb of useful load). A half dragon light warhorse is a fairly cheap large version, with a fly speed of 120ft and a load of 800lb they are very respectable as 3HD constructs.

I think you will be hard pressed to improve on dragons in terms of speed, and they are the only way to meet your speed requirement that I can think of off the top of my head. I would assume that the effigy template has to be applied last, so any Su effects that boost your speed would be out. If you can find creature with a base land speed of 100ft then a half celestial version would do the job though.

[DoctorGlock]

Do you want high fly speeds for tactical reasons or overland movement? Constructs have no constitution score, and so can run indefinately. They can cover 4 times the ground their speed would suggest, and are not held to 8 hour travel days. They are able to run all day resulting in almost 12 times the ground covered per day over a non construct based force (without damage). To outrun them over a timescale of mins you need to have at least double their movement speed, so only the fastest of dragons can outrun a construct with a fly speed of 120ft.

This being said my suggestion would be a half dragon huge centipede. Only has a fly speed of 80ft, but only 6 HD. 1500lb of useful load is easily enough for 4 medium characters with armaments, or 8 small characters. Is that enough hardpoints? I think arms and equipment has rules for howdahs that are applicable. More of a light gunship than a fast attack craft, but could be quite cool. In a similar vein a half dragon elephant could be hilarious, being more of a heavy gunship (almost 10000lb of useful load). A half dragon light warhorse is a fairly cheap large version, with a fly speed of 120ft and a load of 800lb they are very respectable as 3HD constructs.

I think you will be hard pressed to improve on dragons in terms of speed, and they are the only way to meet your speed requirement that I can think of off the top of my head. I would assume that the effigy template has to be applied last, so any Su effects that boost your speed would be out. If you can find creature with a base land speed of 100ft then a half celestial version would do the job though.

...that is genius and might make me revise some of my speed requirements, though I would still like to be able tun run through an airship blockade if needed (eberron) and having 200+ base speed and unlimited run strikes me as optimal.

Are there any templates that increase size but not HD? Then I can grab a lower HD dragon for my 'gotto go fast' needs. Half minotaur perhaps? Nope, not on dragons

[Coidzor]

Lamia (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lamia.htm) has land speed 60, so with half-dragon they'd have 120 fly speed and 9 HD. Howlers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/howler.htm) have 6 HD and are in the same boat.

Unicorns (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/unicorn.htm) have 4 HD and 60' land speed so half-dragon also takes 'em up to 120. A Light Warhorse has 3 HD and 60' land speed so half-dragon would get 'em in the same place.

Megaraptors (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dinosaur.htm#megaraptor) have 8 HD and 60' land speed, so, again, half-dragoning that up would get you 120' fly.

Hippogriffs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hippogriff.htm) have 3 HD and a fly speed (average) of 100', so a template that'd double their speed will take them to the 200' fly speed you want.

Pegasus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/pegasus.htm) has 120' fly speed(average) and 4 HD, so a template that'd double it would get you over the 200' fly speed you want.

Hieracosphinx (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/sphinx.htm#hieracosphinx) have 9 HD and a fly speed of 90, so doubling that gets you to 180, only a bit below 200'.

The only quick and dirty templates for increasing a size category that I can think of offhand are from Pathfinder besides Half-Ogre and Half-Minotaur, unfortunately, sorry. :smallfrown:

[DoctorGlock]

The only quick and dirty templates for increasing a size category that I can think of offhand are from Pathfinder besides Half-Ogre and Half-Minotaur, unfortunately, sorry. :smallfrown:

Awwwww. Oh well, your gold dragon suggestion has already done a great deal. The only flat out double I've found so far is the poorly worded unseelie fey (gains wings and moves at 2x base speed, doesn't specify what base, so could double fly speed) but would make the effigy even more fragile. Shadow creature would give me great speed as well, but same story about fragility.

In that case, given that the base is pretty good (11HD large gold dragon), what can I do to make it a nigh indestructible engine of war?

(god, paragon would solve sooooo many issues)

[Flickerdart]

gains wings and moves at 2x base speed, doesn't specify what base
There's only one kind of speed that's referred to as a creature's base speed, and that's their ground speed.

[atemu1234]

If you've open to 3rd party, a half-minotaur half-ogre half-dragon quickened quickling quickling would fly at 1440 ft/round.

[DoctorGlock]

There's only one kind of speed that's referred to as a creature's base speed, and that's their ground speed.

Today I learned something.


If you've open to 3rd party, a half-minotaur half-ogre half-dragon quickened quickling quickling would fly at 1440 ft/round.

Only one template allowed

[atemu1234]

Today I learned something.



Only one template allowed

Are you sure? Because that was the cheesiest one I could think of.

[DoctorGlock]

Unfortunately, and it seems to be in the CR+2-3 area as well, or I'd grab that sweet sweet paragon for x3 speed and +a lot to everything