Druid spells as a wizard

[j_spencer93]

is there a way to get druid spells on my wizard spell list?

[With a box]

Make a ice assassin of a druid
arcane disciple and select a domain that have spells you want?
Does arcane disciple can work with customized domain feat?

[Zanos]

Wyrm Wizard from dragon magic gets the ability to add an additional spell from any list to their spell list every other level, but loses a lot of caster levels if I recall correctly.

[j_spencer93]

well am making a magic user that mainly uses his snake based spells but the ones i found in the Dragon Magazine all require Druid (more specifically that is the only class that can use them all)
Wyrm Wizard fits with the idea (its also influenced by kabuto and orochimaru, so snake became a dragon thing would be awesome)

[j_spencer93]

wyrm wizard loses 3 levels of casting, but as far as i can tell that wont make me lose any spells i am wanting and can easy be made up with by a feat, cant remember its name though.

[Forrestfire]

Halfling Wizard substitution levels from Dragon 337 get you a 1st and a 5th level spell from any list added to your spellbook. Unseen Seer can grab any divination spells you're looking for from off-list. Southern Magician and domain-granting prestige classes might give you what you're looking for.

I think the feat you're referring to is Practiced Spellcaster, which boosts your caster level if you've multiclassed or lost caster levels. However, it only boosts your caster level, not spells per day or spells known, so while it's good, it's not a perfect solution.

I'd suggest looking through this list of off-list spell stuff (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1181406) to see if there's something for you there.

[Jigawatts]

If PF is an option:

Collegiate (Magaambyan) Arcanist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/c-d/collegiate-arcanist)

[j_spencer93]

ya that is the feat and it would fit in this instance since i really dont have any 9th level spells i need to grab for any real reason. and will look into the other suggestions

[Rubik]

Too bad you're not a StP erudite. Dragons with the Child of Eberron archetype can learn druid spells as arcane spells, which can then be learned by the aforementioned erudite. Or by a chameleon, for that matter.

[Urpriest]

Wu Jen have more snake-themed spells than wizards, any reason you want to stick with wizard?

[j_spencer93]

actually wu jen would work better, i even like their limited spells better since they are more of what i want since he being slightly based off of orochimaru (however he is going to be some race with yuan ti grafts). and i like their snake spells, so how do i get druid spells onto their list?

[Kraken]

If you're up for losing caster levels, have you considered an arcane hierophant, from Races of the Wild? It's like a mystic theurge, but in addition to progressing divine and arcane casting across 10 levels, it also forces you to dismiss your familiar, but your animal companion then receives all the benefits of a familiar (intelligence score, and so forth) in addition to progressing with arcane hierophant levels. It also progresses wild shape, and grants a couple other nifty abilities. A sample build would be druid3/wizard3/mystic theurge2/arcane hierophant10/mystic theurge+2. Or druid3/wu jen3 instead of druid3/wizard3. Or if your DM will let the precocious apprentice feat qualify you early, you could go druid2/wizard1/druid+1/mystic theurge4/arcane hierophant10/mystic theurge+2.

Both builds give you 13th level wildshaping abilities and 17th level wizard casting. The first build only gets 17th level druid casting, but the second one gets 19th level druid casting.

[j_spencer93]

i will keep that in mind actually, thank you. but now i am really interested in making a good wu jen with this theme if possible. if not, your build will be the one i use most likely.

[Forrestfire]

Could do the same thing with Wu Jen, really. They don't get a huge amount of thematic non-spell features, so it'd probably fit.

[j_spencer93]

ok lol then i will look into that. any race suggestions? was thinking maybe a humanoid one from serpent kingdoms

[Seharvepernfan]

Arcane Disciple (Plant) and (animal) are probably your best bets.

[Inevitability]

I can't believe no one has mentioned Extra Spell yet.

[Rebel7284]

There is also Archivist which has very similar flavor to a wizard (schoolar seeking knowledge with a book of spells) but learns divine spells from ANY list. (If you find the right people, you can get ANY spell).

[j_spencer93]

Ok but thinking of using Wu Jen now. you guys are giving me to many ideas to sort through lol so wu jen, archivist, or wizard

[Kraken]

In terms of a general race suggestion, I would say pick a small race, because druids will let you get a medium viper as a familiar, so you could be riding a viper from level 1 if you want. Once you become an arcane hierophant and familiar abilities are conferred to the viper, give it a pearl of speech and name it Sir Hiss (http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130204001629/disney/images/b/b6/Robin-hood-disneyscreencaps.com-7355.jpg). :smallbiggrin: Be aware that if you go the wu jen route, you'll need to spend a feat to get a familiar (obtain familiar, Complete Arcane).

[j_spencer93]

really digging the wu jen right now so thinking of that way, and really liking some of these ideas, however is there a way to get a bigger snake mount? (like large) lol

[Kraken]

As your effective druid level increases you can summon increasingly larger snakes your be your companion. The natural bond feat can also be used to increase your effective druid level for the purposes of making your animal companion stronger.

[j_spencer93]

ok thanks. that should help. not sure of what feats i will need for this build. pretty rough draft

[Rubik]

You could always try a were-swarm-of-snakes kobold...

[j_spencer93]

now that sounds awesome, even fits orochimaru feel, could i shapechange into a single larger snake somehow?

[Inevitability]

You could always try a were-swarm-of-snakes kobold...

Symbiotic Bat Swarm Human? Or Anthropomorphic Swarm...

Ah, how I love 3.5 and it's broken rules...

[j_spencer93]

lol ya if you want to build something that makes no sense and is highly broken, 3.5 is your game lol

[Forrestfire]

Symbiotic Bat Swarm Human? Or Anthropomorphic Swarm...

Ah, how I love 3.5 and it's broken rules...

I think he just meant a were-swarm. You can be were-swarms if you're within a size category of the swarm's base animal.

[j_spencer93]

are were-swarms good? never been a big fan of weres, which idk why really

[Forrestfire]

Not really. Because of a quirk of the alternate form rules, you don't actually get the Swarm subtype when you shift, meaning you'd be a very strange pile of snakes. However, it is super-cool. I wouldn't go for it, though, if you want to be a spellcaster.

[j_spencer93]

well that is an oddity lol. Who made the rule that turning into a swarm doesnt make you a swarm, smh. anyways, any suggestions?

[Forrestfire]

Personally, I think it'd be neat to use the Arcane Hierophant build mentioned on the first page, but with Wu Jen. The Obtain Familiar feat can be taken at some point to fully use the prestige class's abilities, and you'll have two tracks of very good spells.

[sleepyphoenixx]

You can turn into a swarm with the City-Shape ACF (from the Cityscape WE). Or you can just use Polymorph or any of the spells based on it, since it also changes subtype. The lycanthrope template is a trap anyway, especially for casters.

As for Arcane Hierophant, you don't actually need a familiar. You get the full benefit regardless, even if you traded your familiar away or never had one, because of the way the Companion Familiar feature is worded.

[j_spencer93]

thinking arcane hierophant, with obtain familiar, and wu jen. pretty sure that is how i will build him. maybe human with select yuan ti grafts also

[Forrestfire]

As for Arcane Hierophant, you don't actually need a familiar. You get the full benefit regardless, even if you traded your familiar away or never had one, because of the way the Companion Familiar feature is worded.

Huh, really? Nice. I was not aware of that.

[j_spencer93]

Me either actually. does it really work like that

[sleepyphoenixx]

Me either actually. does it really work like that

The companion familiar only counts levels in Arcane Hierophant and arcane spellcasting classes for familiar progression, no matter if said arcane spellcasting classes grant or advance a familiar.


You add your arcane hierophant class level to your arcane
spellcasting class level, and determine the Intelligence
bonus and special abilities of your animal companion
accordingly

Now if you take Obtain Familiar before your first level you lose the familiar and effectively get nothing. If you take it afterwards you get a second familiar in addition to your companion familiar. At least by RAW.

Even if your DM houserules that only arcane classes with familiar progression actually grant it, 10 levels (of Arcane Hierophant) are probably enough for that.
10 Int is plenty for anything you might want to have your familiar do and the Scry on Familiar and Spell Resistance isn't really worth wasting a feat on imo.

[Kraken]

Huh, cool. One of the best parts about an arcane hierophant's companion is that as an animal companion, you give it its own skill points as it accumulates hit dice (2 per HD once its intelligence score is 10), but it also shares your own skill ranks. So if you ever roll a 1 on a knowledge check, for instance, have your intelligent snake companion also roll a check to see if it recalls something that you don't. Spot, listen, and search checks are another handy thing for to have your companion also roll for in addition to yourself.

[j_spencer93]

wow btw i am DM so lol think i see how i am ruling this, but when i make a ruling it sticks throughout our games so a player might abuse this later lol

[sleepyphoenixx]

wow btw i am DM so lol think i see how i am ruling this, but when i make a ruling it sticks throughout our games so a player might abuse this later lol

There's not all that much to abuse here. A few extra levels of familiar progression don't really amount to much in the grand scheme of things.

At least not unless you allow dragon magazine stuff and someone focuses his build on a supermount with maximum familiar progression, but that's pretty simple to block just by not allowing the feats that let you stack all the different companion progressions together.

[j_spencer93]

that is exactly what i was thinking actually since a player already has that build planned for later...this just makes it even better. it wont be to op really but he already makes the others look bad (mainly because they make moronic characters)

[deuxhero]

OP didn't say 3.5 or PF.

In PF it's really easy, as there's a prestige class (one of the few 10/10 advancement ones in PF) dedicated to it

[sleepyphoenixx]

that is exactly what i was thinking actually since a player already has that build planned for later...this just makes it even better. it wont be to op really but he already makes the others look bad (mainly because they make moronic characters)

Um... you might want to look closely at what he's building before allowing it. The build i came up with using those feats a while ago was casting as a 17th level druid/11th level wizard while riding a 44HD gold dragon.
I wasn't really taken all that seriously so it only started really coming into its power by level 12 or so, but i'm sure you can get there earlier.
That's not something most games support, especially if you describe the rest of the party as making "moronic characters".:smallbiggrin:

[j_spencer93]

well the character with the familiar thing is the good character, the other two make decent characters but odd (bordering moronic, like barbarian without using rage) choices. so maybe that build would make it to apparent of his builds power. also, we use PF or 3.5 material so it works either way.