Destroying lich's phylactery

[Rogueone]

I propose to put the lich's phylactery in a bag of holding. Then, stick sword through the bag, thus destroying it. According to the DMG, all items in the bag are lost forever. No mention of them being another plane...just lost forever. Now, the lich is a level 20 wizard. Still, I am trying to figure out why this won't work. Seems way too simple.

[OldTrees1]

There is a difference between being lost and being destroyed. At best you turned the Lich into a Vestige(IF your DM decides it is lost but not on a plane). At worst you made the Lich Invincible(If your DM decides it is lost somewhere in the various planes).

Unlike Sauron's One Ring, Phylacteries are not Major Artifacts. They can be destroyed in the same way your dagger can.

[Hazrond]

Phylacteries are not Major Artifacts. They can be destroyed in the same way your dagger can.

Well, that brings up an interesting question, what if a lich made it's phylactery using an major artifact, making their phylactery be for instance, a Gold Orb of Dragonkind? Being a major artifact it is nearly indestructible correct? i believe the only way to destroy any of the orbs was to have one of each chromatic and metallic dragon breath weapon it at the same time.

[Inevitability]

Well, that brings up an interesting question, what if a lich made it's phylactery using an major artifact, making their phylactery be for instance, a Gold Orb of Dragonkind? Being a major artifact it is nearly indestructible correct? i believe the only way to destroy any of the orbs was to have one of each chromatic and metallic dragon breath weapon it at the same time.

A lich has to create his phylactery himself. Unless he is powerful enough to craft an artifact (at which point he has probably already won the game) he won't be able to do this.


I myself like Mindraping a random kobold into really, really wanting to go to the Far Realms, giving him the phylactery, and Plane Shifting him to there. :smallamused:

[Hazrond]

A lich has to create his phylactery himself. Unless he is powerful enough to craft an artifact (at which point he has probably already won the game) he won't be able to do this.


I myself like Mindraping a random kobold into really, really wanting to go to the Far Realms, giving him the phylactery, and Plane Shifting him to there. :smallamused:

a lich must create his own phylactery, but not necessarily create the item it is based upon, adding magic abilities to existing items is in the rules and it would make for an interesting NPC (especially since when you think about it, the orb works off of a trapped dragon soul, so you are now sharing soul-space with the dragon :smalltongue:)

[OldTrees1]

a lich must create his own phylactery, but not necessarily create the item it is based upon, adding magic abilities to existing items is in the rules and it would make for an interesting NPC (especially since when you think about it, the orb works off of a trapped dragon soul, so you are now sharing soul-space with the dragon :smalltongue:)

Fair enough.

In cases where the phylactery was added onto an Artifact, you probably still want to destroy it rather than merely losing it. So you would want to use the normal Artifact destroying method (which is unique for each Major Artifact) rather than stab a bag of holding.

[Inevitability]

So you would want to use the normal Artifact destroying method (which is unique for each Major Artifact).

How about [Copyrighted name]'s Disjunction?

[Dayaz]

Technically, making the item 'lost' still lets you win the game... Liches respawn near their Phylactery, so if it's 'lost' then once you kill them they respawn near the phylactery and are forever 'lost' themselves.

[Jowgen]

Am I overlooking something or didn't the Book of Bad Latin specify that a Phylactery must always be a non-magical item with the exact properties (Size, HP, Hardness) described within the Monster Manual? :smallconfused:

[With a box]

But before all of this questions, wasn't a Lich can remake his own phylactery anytime he wants if he is still undead? Then destroy one's phylactery before he destroyed does nothing.(well he still have to pay 120k gp and 4800 XP for his new phylactery)

[OldTrees1]

Technically, making the item 'lost' still lets you win the game... Liches respawn near their Phylactery, so if it's 'lost' then once you kill them they respawn near the phylactery and are forever 'lost' themselves.

Not quite. There are spells that allow you to reach the known world from any arbitrary location. Plane Shift in particular is a fairly reliable way for the Lich to reach the known world.

[Jowgen]

But before all of this questions, wasn't a Lich can remake his own phylactery anytime he wants if he is still undead? Then destroy one's phylactery before he destroyed does nothing.(well he still have to pay 120k gp and 4800 XP for his new phylactery)

Libris Mortis would once again disagree. Also quotes relevant to other mentioned issues.

A lich can construct only a single phylactery. A lich whose phylactery is destroyed suffers no harm, but cannot construct a new one. If a lich without a phylactery is slain, the lich is forever destroyed. [...] Regardless of the phylactery’s form, its game statistics remain the same: size Tiny, hp 40, hardness 20, break DC 40. [...] A phylactery cannot be part of another magic item, nor may additional magical properties be built into it

[atemu1234]

Libris Mortis would once again disagree. Also quotes relevant to other mentioned issues.

A lich can construct only a single phylactery. A lich whose phylactery is destroyed suffers no harm, but cannot construct a new one. If a lich without a phylactery is slain, the lich is forever destroyed. [...] Regardless of the phylactery’s form, its game statistics remain the same: size Tiny, hp 40, hardness 20, break DC 40. [...] A phylactery cannot be part of another magic item, nor may additional magical properties be built into it

Makes one wonder if he can still become a demilich.

[Max Caysey]

That makes no sense. The item should determine the hardness, HP and size... What does mm 1 say?

[Jowgen]

That makes no sense. The item should determine the hardness, HP and size... What does mm 1 say?

"Tiny and has 40 hit points, hardness 20, and a break DC of 40." Same as what Libris Mortis says.

[Zanos]

As a small nitpick, I don't think there's anything that says a Lich respawns near their phylactery. It's never specified. Therefore, if your phylactery is "lost forever" you've prevented anyone from ever finding it and then you continue to respawn wherever you want.

If you actually have the phylactery in your hand you could just smash it. It's really not that tough if you've got a big guy with a hammer.

[Rater202]

There is a difference between being lost and being destroyed. At best you turned the Lich into a Vestige(IF your DM decides it is lost but not on a plane). At worst you made the Lich Invincible(If your DM decides it is lost somewhere in the various planes).

Unlike Sauron's One Ring, Phylacteries are not Major Artifacts. They can be destroyed in the same way your dagger can.

If the Lich is destroyed he goes to his Phylactery, meaning the Lich is lost.

If we take the phrase lost as "nowhere", then any such item ceases to exist because something can't be nowhere. If it somehow paradoxically continues to exist and is nowhere, then the lich reforms nowhere. I don't know about you, but I figure to shift to one plane of existence, you'd need to be on a plane of existence, instead of nowhere. Even if it is capable of planeshifting from nowhere, it's have to be capable of casting planeshift, and if the Lich can cast plane shift, then the Lich is capable of hiding his phylactery somewhere deep in the plane of negative energy or something where most adventures aren't going to be able to get it.

Thus, if adventurers got a hold of it, they're either collectively more powerful than the lich and therefor can destroy the phylactery the normal way, or the Lich is either incapable of casting planeshift of too stupid to think of using it, ad wll be lost with his phylactery once defeated.

It's also have to be plane shift, becuase Gate's are two way and you can't opena gate to knowhere and thus can't opena gate from nowhere.

[OldTrees1]

If we take the phrase lost as "nowhere"

Well there is your issue. Nothing can be nowhere. So the question is, what do you mean by "nowhere" since you can't mean nowhere. Vestiges are not nowhere since they are specified as being somewhere(just not on a plane). Are they "nowhere"?

However we can get further by examining the text.


If the bag is overloaded, or if sharp objects pierce it (from inside or outside), the bag ruptures and is ruined. All contents are lost forever.

If a bag of holding is placed within a portable hole a rift to the Astral Plane is torn in the space: Bag and hole alike are sucked into the void and forever lost.

If a portable hole is placed within a bag of holding, it opens a gate to the Astral Plane: The hole, the bag, and any creatures within a 10-foot radius are drawn there, destroying the portable hole and bag of holding in the process.

Cases 1 & 2 involve being "lost forever" and "forever lost" respectively. Those sound similar enough to equate the two results even if not the means or the specifics.

Cases 2 & 3 involve rifts into the Astral Plane.

Together there is a strong indication that Case 1 involves some location on some plane. There is a weaker indication that the plane is the infinitely large Astral plane.

[Jowgen]

Well there is your issue. Nothing can be nowhere. So the question is, what do you mean by "nowhere" since you can't mean nowhere. Vestiges are not nowhere since they are specified as being somewhere(just not on a plane). Are they "nowhere"?

However we can get further by examining the text.


-snipped-


Cases 1 & 2 involve being "lost forever" and "forever lost" respectively. Those sound similar enough to equate the two results even if not the means or the specifics.

Cases 2 & 3 involve rifts into the Astral Plane.

Together there is a strong indication that Case 1 involves some location on some plane. There is a weaker indication that the plane is the infinitely large Astral plane.

I personally am inclined to agree with this argument, but I do feel like the indications in regards to case 1 are not as strong as suggested. Case 2 & 3 do specify the astral plane, but since Case 1 does not I think the possibilities are wider than the astral or any other plane. It's not as likely, but the contents of the bag might simply be ripped out of reality (certainly possible in the case of the destruction of what is essentially a demi-plane), which might have them end up in the place where Vestiges sort-of-exists or the Far Realm even. Alternatively, the bag's pocket-dimension might actually remain intact but be simply cut-off from the other planes, just floating about the layers or the multiverse, impossible to get to... although, against that possibility goes that you might still be able to plane-shift in and out of that tiny demiplane, depending on how you rule their demiplane status and the metaphysics of planar travel. :smallconfused:

[Zweisteine]

I propose that when items are lost forever through extradimensional storage mishaps, they go to the Ordial Plane (http://mimir.net/mapinfinity/ordial.html). Mind you, nothing canonical supports this, but it could be possible.

[goto124]

I personally am inclined to agree with this argument, but I do feel like the indications in regards to case 1 are not as strong as suggested. Case 2 & 3 do specify the astral plane, but since Case 1 does not I think the possibilities are wider than the astral or any other plane. It's not as likely, but the contents of the bag might simply be ripped out of reality (certainly possible in the case of the destruction of what is essentially a demi-plane), which might have them end up in the place where Vestiges sort-of-exists or the Far Realm even. Alternatively, the bag's pocket-dimension might actually remain intact but be simply cut-off from the other planes, just floating about the layers or the multiverse, impossible to get to... although, against that possibility goes that you might still be able to plane-shift in and out of that tiny demiplane, depending on how you rule their demiplane status and the metaphysics of planar travel. :smallconfused:

This is fun!

So if I put my muffin in my Bag of Holding, stab the bag, and then Plane Shift, I might be able to find my muffin?

[Werephilosopher]

I propose to put the lich's phylactery in a bag of holding. Then, stick sword through the bag, thus destroying it. According to the DMG, all items in the bag are lost forever. No mention of them being another plane...just lost forever. Now, the lich is a level 20 wizard. Still, I am trying to figure out why this won't work. Seems way too simple.

Why should it not work because it's simple? It's also simple to hack at it with a sword until it breaks. Destroying a phylactery shouldn't be complicated - finding it should be.


Not quite. There are spells that allow you to reach the known world from any arbitrary location. Plane Shift in particular is a fairly reliable way for the Lich to reach the known world.

Plane shift doesn't work from any arbitrary location. Wherever you are must touch the Astral Plane, and "lost" doesn't sound like it touches anything. And even if it does, who's to say magic even works there?

[SowZ]

As a small nitpick, I don't think there's anything that says a Lich respawns near their phylactery. It's never specified. Therefore, if your phylactery is "lost forever" you've prevented anyone from ever finding it and then you continue to respawn wherever you want.

If you actually have the phylactery in your hand you could just smash it. It's really not that tough if you've got a big guy with a hammer.

This is the least consistent way to view the rules, I think, because a character capable of becoming a lich probably knows how bags of holding work. If it were this easy, there is no reason the lich himself wouldn't have done this.

[Lord Vukodlak]

My old Cleric once used Miracle to permanently removed the phylactery's ability to revive the Lich..... essentially turning it into a soul gem. I also may have added a proviso that his imprisoned soul suffered the tortures of hell.

This is the least consistent way to view the rules, I think, because a character capable of becoming a lich probably knows how bags of holding work. If it were this easy, there is no reason the lich himself wouldn't have done this.
Back in second edition phylacteries required a corpse within range for the Lich to possess.(lower undead could also fill this function). So the Phylactery couldn't be lost forever.

[OldTrees1]

Plane shift doesn't work from any arbitrary location. Wherever you are must touch the Astral Plane, and "lost" doesn't sound like it touches anything. And even if it does, who's to say magic even works there?

Good point about it only working from a subset of arbitrary locations.

"Lost" is used in case 2 to talk about a location on the Astral Plane. So while "lost" might not sound like it touches anything, "lost" doesn't sound like it doesn't touch anything.

In the end, the hero has no idea if stabbing a bag of holding would defeat the lich or instead make it rise stronger than before. Considering the alternative of just smashing the device I think it is clear that destroy >> lose.

[StoneCipher]

The void is a place...or lack thereof. The void separates the cosmologies much like the astral plane separates the planes. However, the connotation "forever lost" would imply to me that once you are within the void, there is no escaping it. Things MAY continue to exist in the void, but it seems to me that there is no working magic IN the void. Then, that begs the question, do phylacteries continue to work? If not, does that release the soul of the lich into the void, of which there is no escape?

Alternatively, things that enter the void could just simply cease to be. Which means that either way you spin it, you've effectively destroyed the Lich's soul. He cannot return to existence ever again.

[Yomega]

Flawed premise aside (this is a fun topic),

Wouldn't needing a tuning fork made out of something from the plane you want to go to prevent either shifting in or out of wherever they end up?

Lich reforms without any gear, assuming spell mastery or other bs that he can cast planeshift without a spell book (sorcerer perhaps Xd) he lacks the spell focus to cast the spell.

Assuming the demi plane of the bag remains just disconnected, the demi plane has no substance to make a tuning fork out of?

Assuming its just drifting in the astral sea, that place is indefinably huge altho being immortal I would think the lich would eventually find his way to a way out, this would be great if for some absurd reason killing the lich has worse consequences.

Just my thoughts :)

[StoneCipher]

Assuming its just drifting in the astral sea, that place is indefinably huge altho being immortal I would think the lich would eventually find his way to a way out, this would be great if for some absurd reason killing the lich has worse consequences.

But it is not the astral sea, it specifically states the void which is its own separate non-place.

[Peelee]

The void is a place...or lack thereof. The void separates the cosmologies much like the astral plane separates the planes. However, the connotation "forever lost" would imply to me that once you are within the void, there is no escaping it. Things MAY continue to exist in the void, but it seems to me that there is no working magic IN the void. Then, that begs the question, do phylacteries continue to work? If not, does that release the soul of the lich into the void, of which there is no escape?

Alternatively, things that enter the void could just simply cease to be. Which means that either way you spin it, you've effectively destroyed the Lich's soul. He cannot return to existence ever again.

Assuming The Void is a place on its own, we could imagine three likely charactaristics of it - it is impossible to escape by any means, it is an emptiness of infinite proportions, and any given thing entering The Void enters at a random location and with zero velocity. With only those three characteristics, even with magic, if you and an item were both expelled to the Void at the same time, the chances of finding that item would be so close to zero as to effectively be zero. Barring Epic Magic, I would count this as satisfactory for fulfilling the "lost forever" clause.

Assuming this to be acceptable, even if a phylactery were to be sent to the Void and the lich were to respawn, it would have no way of escaping, ever, and would not be able to really do much of anything.

[StoneCipher]

Assuming The Void is a place on its own, we could imagine three likely charactaristics of it - it is impossible to escape by any means, it is an emptiness of infinite proportions, and any given thing entering The Void enters at a random location and with zero velocity. With only those three characteristics, even with magic, if you and an item were both expelled to the Void at the same time, the chances of finding that item would be so close to zero as to effectively be zero. Barring Epic Magic, I would count this as satisfactory for fulfilling the "lost forever" clause.

Assuming this to be acceptable, even if a phylactery were to be sent to the Void and the lich were to respawn, it would have no way of escaping, ever, and would not be able to really do much of anything.

I would agree with that assessment. I would imagine the void to be the equivalent of floating in the space between galaxies, with even less light and probably the only lights existent are from everburning torches and the like, unless we assume that the void also kills magic.

Based upon the void's nature, it being "disconnected" from all other planes of existence, I could imagine that it would also prevent magic because of the fact that magic is affected by the current plane you are on in addition to the planes you may draw power from. Such as the plane of fire empowering fire spells. I imagine nilspace -or- the void would nullify all magic.

[OldTrees1]

But it is not the astral sea, it specifically states the void which is its own separate non-place.


a rift to the Astral Plane is torn in the space: bag and hole alike are sucked into the void and forever lost.

In this quote "the void" is either a subset of the Astral Plane or describing the rift to the Astral Plane.

[RedMage125]

I once ran a short Evil Campaign for some players. They were level 18, and one of the party members was a Necromancer who took Craft Wonderous, and spent a good chunk of his starting gold to have his phylactery pre-made. The party besieged a city with an army of undead and ogres, drawing out the paladins of the city, and then infiltrated the city, broke into the paladins' motherhouse, and the necromancer turned himself into a lich ON their altar.

The newly lich-ified PC hid his phylactery inside a block of stone (Stone To Mud, sink phylactery, Mud To Stone), but neglected to protect it from being found.

Well, eventually, the White Hats showed up, at the end of the campaign arc. One Greater Turning attempt later, the lich went poof. A few rounds later, the rest of the Evil party retreated. The Good guys used some divinations, located the phylactery, and retrieved it. Wanting to punish him for defiling the altar, they decided not to immediately destroy said phylactery. Instead, they opened a portal to the Positive Energy Plane, and tossed it in. Fun Times ensued for everyone who was not that lich.

As far as the future of my world goes, I have since moved my timeline up several hundred years, and introduced a major cataclysm that re-ordered the Planes from the Great Wheel to the World Axis. So, for hundreds of years, that lich was resurrected every 1d10 days (with no spellbook, no Spell Mastery feat, and no gear) and promptly destroyed by his environment. Well, after the cataclysm re-ordered the Planes, there was no Positive Energy plane anymore, all the Inner Planes became the Elemental Chaos. So he was quite insane when he was resurrected and not destroyed. He's now a mad lich in the Elemental Chaos (who has since acquired a new spellbook, fortress, etc.).

Just an interesting way to deal with a lich.

Also, I have a thought on the phylactery of the greatest lich ever, Vecna. So...even before he became a deity, he was an immensely powerful lich, right? Liches have layers upon layers of magical protections, so how was his vampire lieutenant able to cut through those protections, much less do permanent damage to an immortal being?

Well, Vecna gifted that sword to Kas, whom Vecna trusted immensely. My theory is that the sword IS Vecna's phylactery, infused with magical might and Vecna's own malevolence. As it contained Vecna's soul, the magicks that made up Vecna's own protections were bypassed by the blade, as it counted as being a part of Vecna himself. This is also why Vecna's Hand and Eye were permanently severed.

Even though Vecna is a god, he is still a lich (3.x had his stats as an undead and NOT an outsider, like most deities). One would likely need to use the Sword of Kas to kill him, and then destroy the blade itself. Otherwise, even Epic characters with Divine Ranks could not permanently destroy the god of secrets.

It's just a theory, but one I think works.

[Rogueone]

Okay, I'll give a little more information about my original premise. The phylactery is, in fact, an artifact. Our party attempted to destroy it, but lacked the time to research exactly how. Our DM said about 2 weeks of study should be able to give us the proper sequence of 10-12 high level spells needed to destroy the phylactery. However, we are on a race against time and could not afford the time to do the research. We now carry the phylactery in a portable hole. One party member also has a bag of holding. I am trying to come up with a way to destroy the phylactery before we meet....Dragotha. And, we are standing right outside the doors to his chamber. We enter right when we begin our next session (we try to play once a month).

[OldTrees1]

Okay, I'll give a little more information about my original premise. The phylactery is, in fact, an artifact. Our party attempted to destroy it, but lacked the time to research exactly how. Our DM said about 2 weeks of study should be able to give us the proper sequence of 10-12 high level spells needed to destroy the phylactery. However, we are on a race against time and could not afford the time to do the research. We now carry the phylactery in a portable hole. One party member also has a bag of holding. I am trying to come up with a way to destroy the phylactery before we meet....Dragotha. And, we are standing right outside the doors to his chamber. We enter right when we begin our next session (we try to play once a month).

Darn.

Well it looks like you have 6 options with varying pros and cons. In no particular order:
Option 1: Bag of Holding + stab the bag (no Portable Hole)
Uncertainty abounds as this thread can attest. The lich's final location is a random location from a undefined list. The list might include places outside of the planes but then again it might not. However it has been pointed out that this would at least delay the lich since it is nigh impossible for them to have the focus for Planeshift on hand even if they do end up near the astral plane. Live your life looking over your shoulder?

Option 2: Keep it locked in the Portable Hole/Bag of Holding
This _might_ stop the lich due to the lack of gear but it will not destroy the lich.

Option 3: Set an ambush
You beat the lich once. Beating it every 1d10 days can't be that hard.

Option 4: Put the phylactery in a resetting trap.
Same as option 3 but less certain and you are not tied down.

Option 5: Mage's Disjunction to destroy the Artifact Phylactery
Hard to convince a mage to cast the spell. 95% chance for an encounter. Certain to destroy the lich.

Option 6: Use the artifact's unique weakness
95% chance for an encounter. Certain to destroy the lich. Have to research and exploit the weakness.

[goto124]

Option 1: Bag of Holding + stab the bag (no Portable Hole)
Uncertainty abounds as this thread can attest. The lich's final location is a random location from a undefined list. The list might include places outside of the planes but then again it might not. However it has been pointed out that this would at least delay the lich since it is nigh impossible for them to have the focus for Planeshift on hand even if they do end up near the astral plane. Live your life looking over your shoulder?

Depending on the DM, the party can make a trip to a whole new world called the Void... this could be fun! Assuming you still want to continue the campaign after the first kill.