How Much Spellcraft Is Enough?

[Strill]

Is there any point at which a character's Spellcraft bonus is sufficient and no longer needs to be raised? I'm looking at the listed DCs (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/spellcraft), and it seems like my character can make all of them by 4th level.

For example, it looks like the most difficult one is deciphering a scroll, which is DC20 + Spell Level. So the highest DC is 29. A Wizard can pretty easily make that check by around level 4 or 6.

5 (INT) + 5 (Gloves of Elvenkind) + 2 (Trait) + 3 (class skill) + 4(ranks) + 10 (take 10) = +29

At this point, is there any reason to invest more ranks into spellcraft?

[Ashtagon]

Is there any point at which a character's Spellcraft bonus is sufficient and no longer needs to be raised? It looks like the most difficult check is deciphering a scroll, which is DC20 + Spell Level. So the highest DC is 29. At level 4, you can make that every time.

5 (INT) + 5 (Gloves of Elvenkind) + 2 (Trait) + 3 (class skill) + 4(ranks) + 10 (take 10) = 29

At this point, is there any reason to invest more ranks into spellcraft?

Yes. If you need to be able to make that check in under two minutes.

Edit: You can't take 20 on thatparticular use of Spellcraft anyway, as it has a penalty for failure ("can only retry after 24 hours").

[Strill]

I'm not taking 20, I'm taking 10.

[Ashtagon]

I'm not taking 20, I'm taking 10.

That can't be done in a combat situation.

(and no, simply being outside the threat range doesn't count. The example given is an orc shootingat Krusk with a bow as he is climbing; no threatened squares needed)

[Strill]

It's very unlikely that I'd need to decipher a scroll in combat. Identifying spells as they're cast would be important in combat though. That has a DC of 15 + spell level, so that pushes the maximum useful Spellcraft bonus to +23.

[RoboEmperor]

Since its pathfinder, I guess spellcraft isn't that important since there are no epic levels or epic spellcasting.

You're a wizard so there really isn't any other skill to get.

To get 23 spellcraft, you need 23-6=17 spellcraft at 16th level. If you want to rely on greater heroism and a headband of intellect +6, it drops to 10, which you can get at level 7. With gloves of elven kind a measily 5 spellcraft will be enough for you. There's also moment of prescience.

I'd still max spellcraft though, it isn't a guarantee you will get all those items or have those buffs up. Identifying enemy spell is incredibly crucial.

IIRC read magic deciphers scrolls with 0 spellcraft. If that's all you want to use spellcraft for dump it since every wizard permanently knows read magic.

[Strill]

I'd still max spellcraft though, it isn't a guarantee you will get all those items or have those buffs up. Identifying enemy spell is incredibly crucial.
Sure there is. I can use Craft Wondrous Item to craft all of those items. Incidentally, Crafting wondrous items also uses Spellcraft, but I still don't think I need any DCs higher than 24.

[avr]

Sure there is. I can use Craft Wondrous Item to craft all of those items. Incidentally, Crafting wondrous items also uses Spellcraft, but I still don't think I need any DCs higher than 24.
If you're taking a bunch of +5's to the DC in order to skip prereqs you could need a lot higher. In general it is pretty easy though.

[Feint's End]

As has been mentioned taking 10 is often not a possibility so in order to reliably (speak always) hit the dc you need +28.

[Strill]

As has been mentioned taking 10 is often not a possibility so in order to reliably (speak always) hit the dc you need +28.

Also Incantatrix.Once you've deciphered a scroll, you no longer need to make any checks to read it again. There's no reason to expect that you'll need to make the check in combat when you can just do it out of combat.

[Elricaltovilla]

Also Incantatrix.

Pathfinder Tag

[Spore]

My oracle has +20 on Spellcraft and it's easily enough to craft any item and deceipher any spell in combat. I might struggle a bit with low rolls and spells of the level 6+. Spellcraft isn't as important unless your DM offers rolls for other skills with higher DCs. My DMs have allowed to get info about an arcane golem forge via Spellcraft (Know: Engineering, Architecture and Arcane where similarly important).

If you do not botch crafting attempts with a chance of failure you're fine.

[Yanisa]

For example, it looks like the most difficult one is deciphering a scroll, which is DC20 + Spell Level. So the highest DC is 29. A Wizard can pretty easily make that check by around level 4 or 6.
Item identifying is higher, 15 + item caster level. It seems the highest CL is 30 (source (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-items-db)) that is a DC of 45... But that is rather unrealistic because those are artifacts and not common in most games. Ignoring artifacts it seems that there are 162 items (source (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-items-db)) that have a CL 20, or a DC of 35. Although, general speaking around that time identify is easy to get and thats a +10 bonus, so I bring up a moot point. :smalltongue:

The DC for item creation also hits the roof at DC 30 (5 base+CL (20 max)+5 for speed).

Still more skill points in spellcraft allows to save the item slot and others pointed out that take 10 is not reliable. More then a total +29 isn't really needed (ignoring take 10), unless you suspect large amounts of artifacts or CL20 items and have no access to identify. At level four you are golden for now, but investing a bit more can't hurt (5 points to get your item slot back the very least).

[Max Caysey]

Spellcraft is your wizards main skill... Nothing is ever high enough!

[atemu1234]

Spellcraft is your wizards main skill... Nothing is ever high enough!

Meh, Knowledge (Arcana) and Decipher Script is just as important.

[grarrrg]

Spellcraft is your wizards main skill... Nothing is ever high enough!Meh, Knowledge (Arcana) and Decipher Script is just as important.

You two make Craft: (Underwater) Basket Weaving cry! :smallfrown:

[Max Caysey]

When playing a wizard I always Max out concentration, spellcraft and knowledge arcana

[Teh_das]

You can't take 10 or 20 on any skill with a penalty for failure, or when the event that triggers the check doesn't last as long as the attempt would take.

[Jack_Simth]

In Pathfinder, there's really no hard cap on the highest useful modifier. Why? Item crafting. The *base* DC is "The DC to create a magic item is 5 + the caster level for the item.", but there's a caveat that turns any caster in Pathfinder into a mini-artificer: " The DC to create a magic item increases by 5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet." (both copied/pasted from here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items#TOC-Magic-Item-Creation)). While one can't make scrolls, wands, potions, staffs, and a few other things without the actual spells, this caveat allows a lawful-neutral caster to make a Chaotic-neutral Candle of Invocation (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/c-d/candle-of-invocation) without having Gate (DC 33), or an Adamantine Golem (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/golem/golem-adamantine) without crushing hand, geas/quest, heal, stoneskin, wish, or a caster level of 20 (DC 55).

[RoboEmperor]

You can't take 10 or 20 on any skill with a penalty for failure, or when the event that triggers the check doesn't last as long as the attempt would take.

You can take 10 on any skill with a penalty for failure. You just can't do it in a stressful situation.

Jack_Simth is right. I always get confused whether it's a 5dc increase in craft or spellcraft, but it's spellcraft. If you want to craft anything you don't have spells for you want spellcraft.

[Strill]

Still more skill points in spellcraft allows to save the item slot and others pointed out that take 10 is not reliable.

Where are you all getting this idea that take 10 is not reliable? Anything you can do out of combat you can take 10 on. I don't see anything you'd need to do in combat apart from identifying a spell as it's cast.

[animewatcha]

Camping in enemy territory when an ambush can happen any time. Trying to talk down aggressors to avoid a fight when there is a countdown before explosion/other-disaster is imminent..

[Yanisa]

Where are you all getting this idea that take 10 is not reliable? Anything you can do out of combat you can take 10 on. I don't see anything you'd need to do in combat apart from identifying a spell as it's cast.

I know plenty a DM who dislikes the whole taking 10 (takes the fun out of the game) or even players that encourage you to roll ("I dare you..."). Teamwork is the reason for me, my group tends to use Aid Another a lot, which prevents us from using take 10. And it doesn't have to be combat to be distracted. You could be working under pressure or against a clock. Your hyperactive monkey teammates can unnerve you. You could be hanging on a rope identifying some magic rune on the side of a cliff.

So I don't see a lot of take 10's in my group, but rereading this, it might just be that, my group. Perhaps it is different for your group.

[Lord Vukodlak]

In Pathfinder, there's really no hard cap on the highest useful modifier. Why? Item crafting. The *base* DC is "The DC to create a magic item is 5 + the caster level for the item.", but there's a caveat that turns any caster in Pathfinder into a mini-artificer: " The DC to create a magic item increases by 5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet." (both copied/pasted from here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items#TOC-Magic-Item-Creation)). While one can't make scrolls, wands, potions, staffs, and a few other things without the actual spells, this caveat allows a lawful-neutral caster to make a Chaotic-neutral Candle of Invocation (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/c-d/candle-of-invocation) without having Gate (DC 33), or an Adamantine Golem (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/golem/golem-adamantine) without crushing hand, geas/quest, heal, stoneskin, wish, or a caster level of 20 (DC 55).

Furthermore you can craft items twice a fast by increasing the spellcraft DC by 5.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I'm gonna go with, unless you are strapped for skill points for some reason, Spellcraft is something you max out. You should be looking at your minimum, not what you get with a 10. You don't want to know how good you are on average, you want to know how good you are at your worst.