Trying to make a "helpful" wizard

[Reprimand]

I have a habit of powergaming in the group that I'm currently playing in and it's given me a bad rep. I've been asked to retire my character which I have no problem with but the group as turned around to ask me to play another wizard just not outshining other players or using a super optimized build.

My old character was elven generalist domain wizard wizard 5/incantatrix 3/Initiate of the sevenfold veil 7/archmage 5. I abused the living hell out of metamagic effect so I'm not heartbroken about them asking me to do this.

However upon rolling a new wizard it occurs to me I don't really know how to NOT optimize.

I was thinking like domain wizard 5 (since I'm going generalist ANYWAY, rolling a human so no sub levels)/mage of the arcane order 10/archmage 5

and just trying to provide utility and battle field control while everyone else does their thing.

Would that be op? Since I'd be mostly providing support anyway.

[herrhauptmann]

Domain wizard is a powerful variant.
Perhaps instead of powergaming a powerful class, you start with a weaker class adn powergame that? Like warmage or dread necromancer.

[Red Fel]

I see "helpful" in quotation marks and I think to myself, "Is this guy being sarcastic about that? Or does he actually want a helpful, full-party support wizard?" Particular pet peeve of mine. Don't mind it in the slightest.

Anyway, what it sounds like you need is the God Wizard (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1146876). This isn't the Batman Wizard, who has the tools to do everything himself; this is the God Wizard, the one who has the tools to enable the party to do everything. It's surprisingly simple - you focus on buffs, debuffs, and BFC. That's it. BFC is great, because the best BFC spells rarely offer saves and generally overcome SR; buffs are basically guaranteed force-multipliers; and debuffs are generally situational anyway. The rest of your build can be designed around and efficient delivery system of the three. Don't bother with anything more than some minor blasting spells, focus the rest on utility.

By doing this, you don't outshine the party; you make the party shine. Your Fighter hits harder, your Rogue sneaks better, your Ranger is more accurate, your Monk... Well, he just needs a hug. Point is, the guide linked above is a great resource on how to make your Wizard a helper, rather than the single most powerful force this pathetic world will ever know, before whom all should grovel in awe and despair.

You know, like you do.

[Grod_The_Giant]

An overpowered party support character is less of a problem than an overpowered individual character, since the power is spread out over the entire party. But it still forces the DM to step up the difficulty of encounters (causing problems if, for some reason, you're NOT around), and a perceptive player can still notice that everything cool he does is because of you.

I'm going to echo herrhauptmann here and suggest you start with a less powerful class or class combination. Go Warlock, or Binder, or Incarnate-- something that's hard to make overpowered even with heavy optimization. Pick a concept that's difficult to do properly-- agile one-weapon fighter, say-- and make it work for you. Or if you must play a caster, go theurge, or voluntarily make a cool-but-less-effective PrC (ie, not full casting) the focus of your build. Handicap yourself so that optimization only raises you to the level of your buddies.

[Threadnaught]

You want to spend less time powergaming, by spending, more, time. Powergaming?

Battlefield Control.
Buffs.
Status Effects.

That order, you dominate the game just as hard as you are now, but less directly or visibly. You could build the same character and the only thing that matters is your Spell selection.


There you go, you don't change how powerful you are, you change how you use your power.

[DMVerdandi]

Definitely invest in the war weaver class. Being able to have the whole party buffed from one spell. Delicious.

Another alternative is instead of playing wizard, play archivist. Same kind of feel, but far better buffs due to the cleric base spell list, yet you can scribe any divine spell, which opens up a lot of variety.
Any way you go, use aureon spell shards instead of spell books.

[Reprimand]

By doing this, you don't outshine the party; you make the party shine.

This pretty much sums up what I wanted to do!

Extra feedback on how I can do this without making the party obsolete would be excellent!

[Red Fel]

This pretty much sums up what I wanted to do!

Extra feedback on how I can do this without making the party obsolete would be excellent!

The guide explains it in greater detail, but the gist is this: As others (and I) have mentioned, focus on battlefield control, buffs, and debuffs. Do not focus on damage-dealing, minion-mancy, or one-hit-win spells. (You may, and probably should, keep one or two on hand in case of emergencies.)

Then, you just stand back. Use BFC to adjust the field to the party's advantage. Have people who can beat concealment? Use spells that create concealment in order to cripple enemy melee. Have enemy spellcasters and none in your party? Use Silence to penalize their casting. Use Wall of X spells to split enemies into smaller groups, and use spells that entangle, immobilize, or otherwise lock down enemies so that your melees can sweep through and sweep them up.

Use buffs as a force multiplier. Make the party stronger and more durable. Give them flight, invisibility, Bull's Strength, whatever they need to be better at their jobs. Then, let them do their jobs.

It's that simple. By arranging the battlefield so that it's advantageous to the party, and then boosting the party's existing capabilities, you can let them do what it is they do. You're not rendering them obsolete, because you're not doing their jobs - you're just making them better at their jobs, and making them easier to do. In a pinch, you can throw out a few life-saving debuffs or some damage spells to help, but for the most part, you're just making the party better at what it is they do normally.

Look, what renders the party obsolete and overshadows them is when the Wizard does the job of everyone else. Dominate and Charm replace the party face. Shapechange replaces the party beatstick. Invisibility and Fly replace the scout. You're not using those. Instead, you're using spells that benefit them. Make the Fighter stronger and more durable; make the Rogue faster and more stealthy. You're also using spells that weaken the enemy without singlehandedly ending the encounter. Putting the entire enemy force to sleep would ruin it for the party, but splitting the enemy up into smaller, more manageable chunks makes people happy. Pinning down the untouchable speedster makes people happy. Allowing the Rogue to do his stalker-in-the-mist schtick makes people happy.

That's what you do. That's the whole trick.

[Spore]

An overpowered party support character is less of a problem than an overpowered individual character, since the power is spread out over the entire party. But it still forces the DM to step up the difficulty of encounters (causing problems if, for some reason, you're NOT around), and a perceptive player can still notice that everything cool he does is because of you.

Of course. But buffing and enabling different things. Enablers give the fighter flight to combat a flying lich, immunize the barbarian from mind control via protection from evil and cast invisibility on the rogue. Buffers give boni to already existing skills and solutions.

You should do the latter plus disable options (be it via dispelling or BFCing) of the enemy. I am no optimizer in any way but your general jist should go in the direction of buffing, debuffing and dispelling. Why dispels? Well you can't get the monster weaker than it already is. Why buffs and not enabler? Because you can often stop problems that were supposed to be a real challenge by just picking the right spell and killing the tension. Why debuffing? By simply just debuffing enemies and buffing allies your party can deal with more dangerous situations.

You do not provide additional tools but you sharpen your own and dull the others while trying to destroy or steal the tool shed.

[ericgrau]

Ya the standard BFC & buffer is the way to go. Though I noticed when I debuffed people perceived it more as dominating than supporting. Maybe -12 str was too much. Dunno about your group. On top of that I would also not over-optimize with prestige classes and tricks. For example wizard 20 without any ACFs. Or maybe a flavorful, not too strong, prestige class or two. Or likewise a low power ACF if and only if it's for style.

You want to use your lower level spells to spam hour/level buffs. You can keep those up 24 hours and cast in the morning, so you could have 19 of those going at the same time, unlike other buffs. For example there's [greater] mage/luminous armor (also for the druid and monk), false life (self-only but keeps you from wasting combat time on other self-only defenses) and greater magic weapon. If you expect a dungeon you may also prepare resist energy, protection from energy, magic circle against evil, heroism, flame arrow and/or stoneskin. Don't sweat spamming the diamond dust. Even after several dungeons it's still a better deal than almost any magic item for the cost.

Higher level spells go to multi-target buffs and battlefield control: web, levitate (rescues allies / plot-points), haste, sleet storm, solid fog, resilient sphere (offensive and defensive), wall of ice (no save 1 round foe delay and bridge/ramp-building), evard's black tentacles, wall of force, mass bear's endurance, forcecage, reverse gravity, Bigby's X hand. The 3 big schools for BFC & mass buffs are conjuration, evocation and transmutation. Don't ban evocation regardless of what the guides say; they're confused and associating evocation with blasting. It's harder to pull off unless you get a lot of splatbooks. Enchantment is an easy ban. Abjuration is an easy ban unless the party is missing a divine caster. If you're starting at level 9-11+ you can ban necromancy and use heart of X spells instead of false life. I think those are transmutation. You miss out on some nice debuffs too but again I dunno, those might offend your party anyway. Illusion is a harder ban but if you're not focusing on yourself it's easier than you'd think. Unless you have a party rogue who loves your varying flavors of invisibility. I once did it just because I could and with all my other good spells I didn't notice the loss.

[atemu1234]

You'll also need to defend yourself, just in case.

[ericgrau]

The nice thing about BFC is that it defends everyone. It's nice to have an emergency get away button like invisibility, temp hp, dimension door or simply withdrawing. But normally I'd simply stand in the back and spread out the love. If you fly and have mirror images while you rain solid fogs from above with maniacal laughter then guess what, your solid fog hit round 3 and all you're doing is slowing down the cleanup of straggling foes after you failed to contribute.

[Reprimand]

I think I get it, my party will probably be happy that I'm helping them do stuff rather than preemptively taking their spot in the mix.

Thanks for the help and suggestions.

[Sith_Happens]

elven generalist domain wizard 5/War Weaver 5/Mage of the Arcane Order 10 with Spontaneous Divination

Done. BUFFS FOR EVERYONE + "Why yes, I do have a spell for that, just give me a moment" + super spy capabilities = best party Wizard.

If your group is down with the whole "Knowledge is power" thing, Divine Oracle 3 goes great with Spontaneous Divination and still lets you eventually get full Spellpool access.

[Goby]

Echoing those that are recommending War Weaver, if you want to help the rest of your party shine. I'm currently playing one right now, from levels 10 to 14, and it's working pretty well. I ended up using a modified version of the War Weaver / Knight of Weave build found in the WW Guidebook (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1098856).

My party has a range of optimization levels, and not a lot of classic melee combos, but the joke around the table is that my wizard hits the enemy with our party monk.

Favorite spells have been Draconic Might & Displacement.

[Renen]

War weaver is life. War weaver is love. Even better if you shenanigans to be able to get even more spells into your web.
By that I mean: putting spells with personal range via a PrC thats talked about in WW handbook (on phone, dont remember name)
Or going above lvl 5 spells by taking legacy champion.

[sideswipe]

have just read the OP so far,

im currently playing a wizard 5 war weaver 5
this way you can use the most powerful normal wizard variant, optimised and still not be power gaming (god wizard).

i specialise in buff/debuff. this allows the rest of my (seriously underpowered) party to actually be effective in combat and kill things way above their level. whereas personally i don't have anything instead of buff/debuff.

and your still a powerful wizard, you just won't outshine people in combat, and you rely on having a party or else you would be weak.

I'm then going abjurant champion for swift abjuration, to give 2 buffs a round :smallsmile:.
you could play an elven generalist domain wizard to give you more buffs each day.

EDIT - i have read more posts... great minds think alike :smallbiggrin:

[Dgrin]

I second the idea to pick less powerful class if you want to optimize the living hell out of it anyway. But if you want wizard... I agree, War Weaver is the way to go.

I personally love to give my characters some more or less obvious weaknesses. In the case of wizards I usually go for psychological quirks.
Remember, you're making a character, not a bunch of stats and levels. Go for the feeling and not the power. At least not only the power :smallamused:

[Fouredged Sword]

You know what I personally love to do? Wizard 5 / war weaver 5 / mage of the arcane order 1 / PRC bard 1 / mage of the arcane order 8

Why? Because you can fix the penalty to non-div, illusion, and enchantment spells with practical spellcaster and you get cure spells added to your list. Trade faccinate for Healing hymn and use it each day to cast healing spells into your weave. Your emergency button now heals everyone 5d8+145 hp as a move action. You may want to trade some of that healing for a spell to remove status effects, but YMMV.

Now, take the planer touchstone feat for the inquisition domain (+4 to dispel checks) and start removing enemy magic.

[ericgrau]

I personally love to give my characters some more or less obvious weaknesses. In the case of wizards I usually go for psychological quirks.
Remember, you're making a character, not a bunch of stats and levels. Go for the feeling and not the power. At least not only the power :smallamused:
Seconded that quirks are loads of fun. I try to get a general idea of the personality of my character but often more blatant quirks are a lot easier to pull off for role-play. Other personality traits don't show up as well and are easy to forget.

I once had a beastly half-troll that was deathly terrified of tropical fruit. Ever since he got killed in an exploding pineapple episode. That was loads of fun to play out.
NPC quest giver: "So what happened?"
Party: "We found magical produce, like this pineapple"
Me: "Gaaaaaaah <runs out of room>."

Smug LBEG: "You can prepare however you want."
PCs start plotting, involving the last of our pineapples, high level buffs and strong 1 off items.
PC: "This guy sure does seem overconfident.
Me: "He does not know... the power of the pineapple"

PC: <lying> "The special tomato must explode."
Me: "I cast the new spell from my custom staff... protection from weaponized horticulture!"
PC: "Can I spellcraft that."
DM: "Sure"
PC: "Ok I pass. <in character> I... what... I don't even know how to describe this."

[Honest Tiefling]

Perhaps toss a few knowledge skills into the mix, if your party currently lacks a knowledge monkey. This way you can inform people of potential hazards, play up the bookish type, etc. Needs some skill to avoid being a know-it-all, but that should be easy enough.

[Madhava]

Just to add to what's already been said... another option a Wizard has, which probably won't offend the party so much, is blasting.

Consider the melee offense in your party: They've moved up to the target, and then power attack, sneak attack sneak attack sneak attack, chopity chop. But the bad monster is still hanging onto dear life, and he's planning on taking one of these puny killers along with him, if his time has truly come.

At this junction, the Wizard putting the bad guy down with a metamagic'ed scorching ray (for example) says to the rest of the party: 'Hey team, we all chipped in and did this together!' Whereas, taking out the wounded enemy with a single hold monster, flesh to ice, et al, says to them: 'Other party members, can you at least pretend to be useful at some point?'

Of course, this is ineffective/not as strong an option as buffing/debuffing for your team, as suggested prior. But's it's usually an exceptable route to go, which won't offend the rest of your team. Provided the stabby guys can make some decent numbers, that is.

[graeylin]

a lower OP wizard?

No metamagic feats.
No shapechange or polymorph line. PAO is okay, if you use it offensively, but not on self or party.
No timestop.
No PRC's.

20th level wizard, you can specialize if you want (evocation or conjuration).
Summon stuff to help.

that should do it.

[atemu1234]

a lower OP wizard?

No metamagic feats.
No shapechange or polymorph line. PAO is okay, if you use it offensively, but not on self or party.
No timestop.
No PRC's.

20th level wizard, you can specialize if you want (evocation or conjuration).
Summon stuff to help.

that should do it.

I don't think he was talking low-op, just making the party itself better without being the star of the show.

[Sith_Happens]

If you do go War Weaver, ask your DM if your familiar's Deliver Touch Spells works with it such that the party doesn't have to crowd around you at the start of every combat for the first four levels of it. If not, I recommend researching Swift Spectral Hand and putting it in a wand.

[Troacctid]

Just to add to what's already been said... another option a Wizard has, which probably won't offend the party so much, is blasting.

Consider the melee offense in your party: They've moved up to the target, and then power attack, sneak attack sneak attack sneak attack, chopity chop. But the bad monster is still hanging onto dear life, and he's planning on taking one of these puny killers along with him, if his time has truly come.

At this junction, the Wizard putting the bad guy down with a metamagic'ed scorching ray (for example) says to the rest of the party: 'Hey team, we all chipped in and did this together!' Whereas, taking out the wounded enemy with a single hold monster, flesh to ice, et al, says to them: 'Other party members, can you at least pretend to be useful at some point?'

Of course, this is ineffective/not as strong an option as buffing/debuffing for your team, as suggested prior. But's it's usually an exceptable route to go, which won't offend the rest of your team. Provided the stabby guys can make some decent numbers, that is.

Doing 12d6*1.5 fire damage as a touch attack when your teammates are doing 2d6+12 against normal AC seems like the opposite of not overshadowing them.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I'm a big fan of adding Spellguard of Silverymoon to the typical war weaver build to sneak some personal spells onto the entire party.

Wizard 3/War Weaver 5/Spellguard 4 or 5/Full casting the rest. Abjurant Champion is a good choice if you want to give everyone effectively +5 fullplate with greater luminous armor.

[MrMercury]

Add a limit to yourself. Play solo wizard, without specializing. Limit yourself to second rate spells.

Alternatively, play solo sorceror. No multi-classing. It's quite difficult to out-shine people as a sorceror, unless your spell selection is extremely good.

[atemu1234]

Add a limit to yourself. Play solo wizard, without specializing. Limit yourself to second rate spells.

Alternatively, play solo sorceror. No multi-classing. It's quite difficult to out-shine people as a sorceror, unless your spell selection is extremely good.

Not-outshining =/= nerfing. If he's buffing his comrades and letting them do the shiny stuff, then he should be alright regardless of optimization level.

[Darkweave31]

You could probably keep your current character and just alter your spell list and strategies to be more in line with the God Wizard mentioned above. Rather than using personal veils from initiate, make use of the area and wall veils for battlefield control and supporting the party. This is, of course, so long as your group is willing to give that a chance. Suggest the DM have your spellbook taken, then have a little side quest to gather more party friendly spells. Perhaps seek the help of a local mage's guild or an old mentor.

I suggest this as an option if you enjoy roleplaying the current character, but need to tone things down a bit. Much less intrusive on the story.