Advice for Rogue1 // Beguiler1 ?

[RCgothic]

I put this character together for an upcoming Shackled City campaign.

The character creation guidelines were as follows:

- level 1, 0XP
- 26PB
- HPs: Max first level, rolled afterwards (but minimum average -0.5, e.g. 3 on a d6, 4 on a d8).
- Traits: choose 1 campaign trait (see below)
- Flaws: you may choose 1, but I reserve right to veto (e.g. wizard with noncombatant or fighter with inattentive when he's no intention of taking spot/listen ranks
- Races: most from allowed sources. If you want a LA+1 ask. No fey or silly fey templates. No lesser plane touched.
- Homebrew: you can ask but I'm pretty sceptical of most of it.
- Wealth: standard by class
- Alignment: no evil
- multiclassing: normally ignored unless its outrageous dipping
- Optimisation: middling. But outrageous cheese will be banned as will known offenders (e.g shivering touch, infinte action loops, free wishes. Persistent spell is banned, as are stacking metamagic reducers).
- Sourcebooks (Starting list)
Core + PHB 2 and DMG 2
Complete (warrior, divine, arcane, adventurer, mage, scoundrel)
Races of (Stone, Wild, Destiny)
Spell / Magic Item compendium
Tome Magic (binders only)
- level 1 is gestalt (but only level 1!)

And so:
Zosiel "Zooey" Chambers (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=1083050)
F CG Human Rogue1 // Beguiler 1, Level 1, Init +3, HP 6/6, DR -, Speed 30
AC 15, Touch 13, Flat-footed 12, Fort +0, Ref +5, Will +1, Base Attack Bonus 0
- Rapier / Short Sword (-) 0 or -2/-2 (1d6 / 1d6, 18 / 19 x2)
- Short Bow (20) +3 (1d6, x3)
- Leather Armour (+2 Armor, +3 Dex)
Abilities Str 10, Dex 16, Con 10, Int 16, Wis 8, Cha 10
Condition None

My base idea was to go for a Rogue type, and Beguiler seems to synergise fairly well with that. I'm not decided which side of the gestalt to pursue yet. I was also thinking of targeting the Unseen Seer prestige class, but I'm less sure because it doesn't look like that will allow her to learn any higher level spells except for the odd one from divination.

Basically I'm wondering if I've made any really obvious errors, or whether there's something easy I can do to optimise. What I'm most nervous about is having to limp up to level three without Weapon Finesse.

I'd greatly appreciate any thoughts! :smallsmile:

[Urpriest]

I put this character together for an upcoming Shackled City campaign.

The character creation guidelines were as follows:


And so:
Zosiel "Zooey" Chambers (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=1083050)
F CG Human Rogue1 // Beguiler 1, Level 1, Init +3, HP 6/6, DR -, Speed 30
AC 15, Touch 13, Flat-footed 12, Fort +0, Ref +5, Will +1, Base Attack Bonus 0
- Rapier / Short Sword (-) 0 or -2/-2 (1d6 / 1d6, 18 / 19 x2)
- Short Bow (20) +3 (1d6, x3)
- Leather Armour (+2 Armor, +3 Dex)
Abilities Str 10, Dex 16, Con 10, Int 16, Wis 8, Cha 10
Condition None

My base idea was to go for a Rogue type, and Beguiler seems to synergise fairly well with that. I'm not decided which side of the gestalt to pursue yet. I was also thinking of targeting the Unseen Seer prestige class, but I'm less sure because it doesn't look like that will allow her to learn any higher level spells except for the odd one from divination.

Basically I'm wondering if I've made any really obvious errors, or whether there's something easy I can do to optimise. What I'm most nervous about is having to limp up to level three without Weapon Finesse.

I'd greatly appreciate any thoughts! :smallsmile:

The thing about gestalting Rogue and Beguiler is that they have a huge amount of overlap. They've got roughly the same hit points, skill points, and proficiencies, and they both give trapfinding. If you continue advancing Beguiler casting (which I would recommend) then you'll only be getting 8 skill points and 1d6 sneak attack out of your Rogue level. The latter is useful...if you're going for a sneak attack-focused build. If you're not, (it's not exactly necessary for a "Rogue type", depending on what you mean by "Rogue type"), then it's not getting you very much. Even if you are, Spellthief (for access to several schools' worth of Sorc/Wiz spells) might be worth considering, depending on how much mileage you're getting out of the extra skill points).

You won't get Advanced Learning spells if you take Unseen Seer, but you will still get your normal Beguiler spells. Remember, Beguilers can cast anything on their list, they don't need to learn the spells first. Some divination spells are very handy for sneak-attack focused characters, much more handy than the spells you'd normally get from Advanced Learning.

Basically, you should decide whether "Rogue type" means sneak attack, and plan accordingly.

[atemu1234]

For gestalt, I like Beguiler // Sorcerer. Go into Rainbow Servant later.

[Troacctid]

Hmm, I was about to suggest the sneak attack Fighter variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) instead of Rogue (since you're really only getting sneak attack out of it either way and the Fighter chassis pairs better with Beguiler) but it looks like Unearthed Arcana isn't on the list of allowed sources.

I don't know if sneak attack is where you want to be with Beguiler, though. They already have problems with mindless enemies; picking up a new angle of attack that undead and constructs are still immune to seems meh.

[Jeff the Green]

The thing about gestalting Rogue and Beguiler is that they have a huge amount of overlap. They've got roughly the same hit points, skill points, and proficiencies, and they both give trapfinding. If you continue advancing Beguiler casting (which I would recommend) then you'll only be getting 8 skill points and 1d6 sneak attack out of your Rogue level. The latter is useful...if you're going for a sneak attack-focused build. If you're not, (it's not exactly necessary for a "Rogue type", depending on what you mean by "Rogue type"), then it's not getting you very much. Even if you are, Spellthief (for access to several schools' worth of Sorc/Wiz spells) might be worth considering, depending on how much mileage you're getting out of the extra skill points).

You won't get Advanced Learning spells if you take Unseen Seer, but you will still get your normal Beguiler spells. Remember, Beguilers can cast anything on their list, they don't need to learn the spells first. Some divination spells are very handy for sneak-attack focused characters, much more handy than the spells you'd normally get from Advanced Learning.

Basically, you should decide whether "Rogue type" means sneak attack, and plan accordingly.

The other problem is that beguilers aren't great at sneak attacking. I don't think they have any spells that work with it and function best if they're casting. The one exception would be if you stuck Wizard/Rogue/Unseen Seer (or Wizard/Spellthief/Unseen Seer) on the other side. Then your Wizard spells would function for sneak attack and cloaked casting (if you chose one that required an attack roll and a save, like the orb spells).

[Urpriest]

The other problem is that beguilers aren't great at sneak attacking. I don't think they have any spells that work with it and function best if they're casting. The one exception would be if you stuck Wizard/Rogue/Unseen Seer (or Wizard/Spellthief/Unseen Seer) on the other side. Then your Wizard spells would function for sneak attack and cloaked casting (if you chose one that required an attack roll and a save, like the orb spells).

It's not a full gestalt, just a first level one. Something to keep in mind.

[RCgothic]

I started with the idea that I'd be playing straight rogue, and that a beguiler's spell suite would be useful on a rogue. I didn't really think of it that actually in that case the Rogue isn't contributing a great deal - eight skill points and sneak attack. The character is now before the DM, and I'll find out in about 24hrs whether I'll be admitted or not. I think I'll still be allowed skill, feat and equipment tweaks, but I'm kind of locked in to Rogue//Beguiler now. I'd have asked for advice sooner, but I've been very busy and this has been a bit of a rush job. :smallredface:

Where I do probably still have leeway is feats/skills/equipment/ACFs, and future progression.

My current thinking is for a melee TWF rogue, but it sure does suck up feats! Combat Expertise and Improved Feint seems basically mandatory, as does TWF if I'm going melee. And it won't be very effective until I get Weapon Finesse at level 3. So is it worth persevering with that concept? I do want to be doing direct damage, which is what makes me lean towards Rogue rather than Beguiler, but Beguiler does have some nice stuff, like swift-action feint and 9th level spells.

Some options I'm considering:
Rogue1 // Beguiler10/Unseen Seer10 maximises spells, swift-action feinting and 5d6 sneak attack.
Rogue1 // Beguiler8/Rogue3/Unseen Seer10 seems well balanced with level9 spells, swift-action feinting and 6d6 sneak attack, evasion and penetrating strike.
Beguiller1 // Rogue10/Unseen Seer10 gets most of Rogue, but with level5 spells and 9d6 sneak attack.

[PurpleSocks]

Id second spellthief especially if you can get the arcane trickster variant for more casting. If its not a full gestalt I'd use it as an opportunity to take a quick dip into Cloistered cleric, if you choose your domains right you can nab a few nice abilities in addition to knowlege devotion.

Spellthief 1 // Cloistered Cleric 1

[Urpriest]

Rogue 1//Beguiler 5/Unseen Seer 10/Arcane Trickster 5 gives you 7d6 sneak attack.

You'll be kind of fragile, so it might be better to focus on ranged combat (even if it's even more feat-hungry). Picking up Point-Blank Shot and Rapid Shot at your level means you can spend your first round of combat getting two sneak attacks from range before closing in to melee on later rounds. (Curmudgeon is a big proponent of this sort of roguery.) At higher levels you'll have more access to Invisibility/Greater Invisibility and sources of concealment, so you'll be able to hide and engage in ranged combat so you can still get sneak attacks.

[Sith_Happens]

The character is now before the DM, and I'll find out in about 24hrs whether I'll be admitted or not. I think I'll still be allowed skill, feat and equipment tweaks, but I'm kind of locked in to Rogue//Beguiler now.

Ouch, are you sure you can't appeal?

[RCgothic]

Id second spellthief especially if you can get the arcane trickster variant for more casting. If its not a full gestalt I'd use it as an opportunity to take a quick dip into Cloistered cleric, if you choose your domains right you can nab a few nice abilities in addition to knowlege devotion.

Spellthief 1 // Cloistered Cleric 1

Ouch, are you sure you can't appeal?
As mentioned, I'm pretty much locked into Rogue//Beguiler now. Attempting to mix it up would only harm my chances I think, as there are 15 applicants, the DM is currently deciding and my odds are long enough as is.


Rogue 1//Beguiler 5/Unseen Seer 10/Arcane Trickster 5 gives you 7d6 sneak attack.

You'll be kind of fragile, so it might be better to focus on ranged combat (even if it's even more feat-hungry). Picking up Point-Blank Shot and Rapid Shot at your level means you can spend your first round of combat getting two sneak attacks from range before closing in to melee on later rounds. (Curmudgeon is a big proponent of this sort of roguery.) At higher levels you'll have more access to Invisibility/Greater Invisibility and sources of concealment, so you'll be able to hide and engage in ranged combat so you can still get sneak attacks.

Arcane Trickster is kind of cool, actually. I'm not sure I'm totally sold - it's a little fragile, and I think if I were to go in that direction I'd try and focus more on ranged.

If I were to stick with Beguiler, Rogue and Unseen Seer, would there be anything I should change about current feats, skills or equipment? And is my stat allocation sensible?

[Sith_Happens]

As mentioned, I'm pretty much locked into Rogue//Beguiler now. Attempting to mix it up would only harm my chances I think, as there are 15 applicants, the DM is currently deciding and my odds are long enough as is.

Then wait until after you've been accepted to mention that you've realized Rogue//Beguiler is kind of dumb so would it be alright to change Rogue to something else.:smallwink:

[Urpriest]

As mentioned, I'm pretty much locked into Rogue//Beguiler now. Attempting to mix it up would only harm my chances I think, as there are 15 applicants, the DM is currently deciding and my odds are long enough as is.



Arcane Trickster is kind of cool, actually. I'm not sure I'm totally sold - it's a little fragile, and I think if I were to go in that direction I'd try and focus more on ranged.

If I were to stick with Beguiler, Rogue and Unseen Seer, would there be anything I should change about current feats, skills or equipment? And is my stat allocation sensible?

You've got a pretty low Con. That's going to make you pretty fragile...which might be another reason to go primarily ranged.

Feinting in general doesn't go very well with TWF, but that's sort of a side issue.

[RCgothic]

You've got a pretty low Con. That's going to make you pretty fragile...which might be another reason to go primarily ranged.

Feinting in general doesn't go very well with TWF, but that's sort of a side issue.

Yup, 26 point buy is harsh like that. But I don't feel I can take penalties to damage from low strength (either for ranged or melee), and both DEX and INT are vital for TWF and Spells. CON's as high as I can justify, and I realise I'm going to be a little on the fragile side because of it. WIS is already dumped hard, and a rogue of all trades probably shouldn't have a CHA penalty either. :smallsigh:

I think I have a way around TWF and feigning - swift action feigning from Beguiler 6. Which would imply a Rogue1 // Beguiler8/Rogue3/Unseen Seer10 build.

[Jeff the Green]

Feinting in general doesn't go very well with TWF, but that's sort of a side issue.

Does it go well with anything? I know it's particularly a trap for beguilers (it involves being in melee for far too long).

[Urpriest]

Yup, 26 point buy is harsh like that. But I don't feel I can take penalties to damage from low strength (either for ranged or melee), and both DEX and INT are vital for TWF and Spells. CON's as high as I can justify, and I realise I'm going to be a little on the fragile side because of it. WIS is already dumped hard, and a rogue of all trades probably shouldn't have a CHA penalty either. :smallsigh:

I think I have a way around TWF and feigning - swift action feigning from Beguiler 6. Which would imply a Rogue1 // Beguiler8/Rogue3/Unseen Seer10 build.

That still only lets you feint once per round, though. You don't have access to Drow of the Underdark, so you can't take Surprising Riposte and your feints will thus only benefit one attack.

Edit:

Does it go well with anything? I know it's particularly a trap for beguilers (it involves being in melee for far too long).

Well, no, I was being diplomatic. :smalltongue:

[Chronos]

One good guideline for gestalt is to choose classes that accomplish the same thing, but do it in different ways that stack. Thus, for instance, if I were making a roguish gestalt, I might take a traditional roguish class (like rogue or beguiler) on one side, while taking something like Incarnate on the other: Incarnates are also good at skills, but they get their bonuses from soulmelds, not from skill ranks, so they'd stack.

Of course, Magic of Incarnum isn't on the list of allowed books, so that specific example wouldn't work here. Given the OP's list, I'd probably take either Binder or Dragon Shaman as my "extra" level: Neither is actually all that roguish, but both give pretty good utility for a single-level dip.