PDA

View Full Version : Player Help Ready action and hold spells idea



Mandragola
2015-01-01, 04:18 PM
Here's a slight trick you can do, which will sometimes improve the effect of hold person and other spells.

Background: I realised that these spells are a bit rubbish if you're the last party member to act before the monsters' turn. You cast the spell, they might save, then they might save again at the end of the turn. The monster does spend its turn under the effect of your spell, but often you and your friends don't get to batter the thing while it's held. Monsters will always get two chances to save before you yourself get to hit them, even if you're first in the initiative order, so you never get to enjoy the effects of your own spell. Sad times!

The ideal time for hold person to go off is immediately after the monster acts, so it misses that chance to save at the end of its turn and your whole group gets to beat on it, should it fail its save.

So here's what you do: You brief the other characters with a code-word prior to combat (but not at the inn - you want them to remember). You then ready to cast hold person (or whatever) when someone says the word. Then the monsters have their turn*. When the first player to act has their turn, they say your code word and you use your reaction. Hold person goes off, hopefully sticking the baddie in place. The party, you included, then gets to commence smacking the monster around getting auto-crits, until hopefully it falls over.

*Note that the designers seem to have actually put something in place to make this not-entirely-broken: readying a spell requires that you cast it and then concentrate on it. You're planning on waiting through the monsters' turn, so something bad might happen to make you lose your spell - and you can't concentrate on anything else. Of course, quite a lot of monsters won't understand what's happening and will beat on the tank, or you'll be a cheesy vengeance paladin with polearm mastery and sentinel so they can't get to you, or you're invisible and they don't know you're there at all or something.

Dalebert
2015-01-02, 04:29 PM
This is a good strategy IMO, but can't you just ready any action for a certain event so that it doesn't go off on your initiative order and that can include casting a spell? I don't see why you'd have concentration issues for doing this. Maybe I'm still a bit too ignorant of 5e rules.

Ashrym
2015-01-02, 10:04 PM
Readying an action doesn't change initiative order or simply wait longer like previous editions. There are specific rules on pg 194 for holding a spell using a readied action. Concentration is required to cast it and hold it for the trigger.

Additionally, concentration is required to cast any spell longer than one action, including rituals.

pwykersotz
2015-01-02, 11:33 PM
Additionally, concentration is required to cast any spell longer than one action, including rituals.

This isn't quite true. A lot of spells certainly, but there are many that are duration without concentration.

Ashrym
2015-01-03, 12:14 AM
This isn't quite true. A lot of spells certainly, but there are many that are duration without concentration.

The rules for casting requires concentration for any spell with a casting time greater than one action. PHB pg 202. Casting time is not duration.

Hopefully it's more clear what I meant. 😃

jkat718
2015-01-03, 12:26 AM
I think this is what Dalebert was getting at, but I'm not sure, so I'll ask it: why not just declare "the end of the monster's turn" to be your trigger. Then, your work is cast at the earliest possible second it can (without granting a second save, that is).

Ashrym
2015-01-03, 02:17 AM
I think this is what Dalebert was getting at, but I'm not sure, so I'll ask it: why not just declare "the end of the monster's turn" to be your trigger. Then, your work is cast at the earliest possible second it can (without granting a second save, that is).

The end of the monsters turn is an out of game mechanic as opposed to an in game action. Some DM's might go for it but in my experience most are looking for a description of circumstances the character is anticipating and can perceive. "After the ogre does something that I'm not sure what" is the equivalent of "after the monster's turn". As a DM, I would push for an a description of the trigger per the "perceivable" requirement in the ready action.

The result doesn't get any gain, however. Holding a monster on your turn as opposed to the end of it's turn or another triggered circumstance might gain your attack while the monster is held, but it misses any other PC's turns between your action and the target, commonly resulting in a neutral gain or loss on attacks against the held creature. It's circumstantial at best after seeing the initiative order of the group and opponents, and might gain an attack once in a while.

Louro
2015-01-03, 08:27 AM
Too complex, we do it this way: you cast hold person and if the objective fails the save it misses its very next round being hold, then he rolls for save every next turn after that first one.

jkat718
2015-01-06, 12:43 AM
@Louro

I like that rule, I think I'll use it. :smallsmile: