Character creation and campaign information

[Garonak]

I am planning a new campaign which will take the characters from low levels and upwards.

The issue I am faced with is this:
Part of me wants to hide wha the main monster type of the campaign will be, but at the same time I want to give the players the opportunity to build the most suitable characters for the campaign, as this usually requires an early start.

What do you think?

[sleepyphoenixx]

It depends on the campaign. If the monsters are an ongoing problem the characters who live in the world would know that and specialize accordingly.
If it's some kind of invasion scenario on the other hand they wouldn't, so their players don't need to know either.

There's also some OOC considerations, like a player building a character depending on precision damage in an undead-heavy campaign, a wizard/archivist in a campaign where access to spells/scrolls is extremely limited or an artificer in a campaign with a strict time limit that makes crafting infeasible.
In that case you still don't have to reveal your surprise monsters, but a "that kind of character isn't going to work well in this campaign" style warning would probably be a good idea to keep your players from getting frustrated.

[atemu1234]

Hints are useful. Vagueness could help them make characters and preserve mystery.

[sideswipe]

hint to them that certain build ideas and features would be a really bad idea. that way its a secret but no one is disappointed.

for example, the whole campaign is undead and constructs, and they build a rogue, a beguiler and a cleric of pelor.... its then a 1 man party.

so you would say, precision damage and mind effecting are bad ideas.
don't be afraid to ban things for in campaign reasons, things that people would just not have in the area due to it.

[Kol Korran]

A possible solution, other than some vague hints is to enable some place and time in the campaign to "retrain" old choices such as feats, class features and so on.
First have an initial "shock chapter" where the enemies make their appearance, but after getting to a suitable point, enable some retraining.

[sideswipe]

A possible solution, other than some vague hints is to enable some place and time in the campaign to "retrain" old choices such as feats, class features and so on.
First have an initial "shock chapter" where the enemies make their appearance, but after getting to a suitable point, enable some retraining.

expanding on this, have a psion who has researched and developed an alternate version of psychic reformation, enabling the party to change everything, including class levels. and he has a plethora of items for sale or "trade" which are more cost effective then a normal vendor.

eg- he will buy items for 80% value and give for normal price.

the story for this guy is he makes a living changing adventurers into improved versions of themselves (have a pretty large fee for the one spell) and then refitting them.

unfortunately his unique power is so draining on the immortal soul of the target it can only be used once, a second time would cause permanent damage to their soul which cannot be repaired by anything from reality (say 2d6 level drain? that is unrepairable).

this would allow a cool NPC, an in story reason for the change and a cost to it that is not too great.
and it cannot be abused.

[Crake]

expanding on this, have a psion who has researched and developed an alternate version of psychic reformation, enabling the party to change everything, including class levels. and he has a plethora of items for sale or "trade" which are more cost effective then a normal vendor.

eg- he will buy items for 80% value and give for normal price.

the story for this guy is he makes a living changing adventurers into improved versions of themselves (have a pretty large fee for the one spell) and then refitting them.

unfortunately his unique power is so draining on the immortal soul of the target it can only be used once, a second time would cause permanent damage to their soul which cannot be repaired by anything from reality (say 2d6 level drain? that is unrepairable).

this would allow a cool NPC, an in story reason for the change and a cost to it that is not too great.
and it cannot be abused.

There's already rebuild options in phb2, so I don't see the need to homebrew stuff like that. There's even sample quests, although I prefer to homebrew my own. Theoretically the DM could just simply allow the player a rebuild at certain significant points (like for example, upon obtaining an acquired template) depending on how severe the rebuild would actually be.

[sideswipe]

There's already rebuild options in phb2, so I don't see the need to homebrew stuff like that. There's even sample quests, although I prefer to homebrew my own. Theoretically the DM could just simply allow the player a rebuild at certain significant points (like for example, upon obtaining an acquired template) depending on how severe the rebuild would actually be.

the really REALLY big problem i have is that if you "retrain" as a sentient being you do not lose the old information and skill, if you have spent 10 years in retail and you then train yourself do code computer programs you still have that old skill dormant.

the retrain rules are essentially nonsense. if you want to at some point "ding" into being another almost completely different person in an instant then you want magic.

yes you could go on a quest.... but you are you, you are you, you are you and then you poof into a wizard..... thats the realm of magic.

plus, you would need to come up with an in game reason to allow retraining, and the whole quest and then it still makes it look like you have sellotaped a Pringles can to a small funnel to make a rocket. just because a fighter sneaks into a castle to retrieve an item does not mean he poof's into being a rogue with maxed out hide and move silently. suddenly knowing where all your vitals are and how to surgically cut your major muscles mid combat (sneak attack) as well as suddenly having the reflexes of a cat from being a big tough brute.

[ComaVision]

the really REALLY big problem i have is that if you "retrain" as a sentient being you do not lose the old information and skill, if you have spent 10 years in retail and you then train yourself do code computer programs you still have that old skill dormant.

the retrain rules are essentially nonsense. if you want to at some point "ding" into being another almost completely different person in an instant then you want magic.

yes you could go on a quest.... but you are you, you are you, you are you and then you poof into a wizard..... thats the realm of magic.

plus, you would need to come up with an in game reason to allow retraining, and the whole quest and then it still makes it look like you have sellotaped a Pringles can to a small funnel to make a rocket. just because a fighter sneaks into a castle to retrieve an item does not mean he poof's into being a rogue with maxed out hide and move silently. suddenly knowing where all your vitals are and how to surgically cut your major muscles mid combat (sneak attack) as well as suddenly having the reflexes of a cat from being a big tough brute.

One stupid explanation is just as good as another. I'd rather just allow the retraining for free and the players can act like they were always that way. In fact, I have done that before (new player was straight rogue, rebuilt as rogue/wizard after learning the game a bit).

[Flickerdart]

Prophecy is a classic staple - if the players know that, say, "a champion of darkness will tower above the armies of the damned" then they know to expect Evil Outsider and Undead shenanigans.

[big teej]

I am planning a new campaign which will take the characters from low levels and upwards.

The issue I am faced with is this:
Part of me wants to hide wha the main monster type of the campaign will be, but at the same time I want to give the players the opportunity to build the most suitable characters for the campaign, as this usually requires an early start.

What do you think?

personally, I tend to tell my players from the get go that I will (almost) never design an encounter specifically meant to cancel out their abilities/make them useless. I'm going to design adventures/encounters from a what makes sense/what will be interesting standpoint.

the one exception to this is if I *Know* a campaign will center around a given type of critter or encounter and I am aware of a player making a character that will be completely neutered by the critter.

my go to example is a sneak-attack focused rogue in an undead campaign. I will quietly inform the player to shelf it and try something else.

[Honest Tiefling]

Tell them what they'd know in character. To the east, groans are being heard from a massive ancient graveyard that has fallen into ruin. Tales of a abandoned mage's laboratory are circulating, and someone has hired you to deal with it.

If this doesn't work, I advise being liberal with swapping out abilities unless they have been plot-central. In my experience other players don't tend to notice and it avoids rampant abuse.

[Mehangel]

Honestly, I agree with the majority of the posters and be vague, or suggest that certain specific classes wont be optimal (I wouldnt say why though). If for an undead campaign a player still wants to play a rogue or beguiler even after said vague suggestions, let them. Some players like to challenge themselves. If that means that the rogue will have to get his hands on a wand of gravestrike, then so be it, but I wouldnt specifically force the player to pick a different class (especially if it is weaker in said campaign). I also wouldnt specifically offer to allow retraining, if later on in the campaign a player wishes to retrain, then you can deal with that can of worms, but I wouldnt just offer it to them.

[HJPotter]

I once joined a campaign--my very first one--halfway through with another friend, we had a separate character creation session with the DM. We decided on a beguiler and a ninja. We were told that the last session involved two warring armies clashing, and we were going to travel with a caravan of refugees and survivors from the battle for a while. The rest of the party were the current bruisers for the newly homeless. Cool, we thought, my beguiling skills will come in handy in managing differences between all factions navigating unsuspecting land, and friend's ninja skills will come in handy as a scout/kicking ass.

We join the first session, and from the very first fight on, we face undead only. Also, we lose track of the other refugees. And the undead have taken over the kingdom we're in. And there's no arcane/divine casters in the party beyond my (semi-useless) beguiler. Retraining wasn't an option, since we were so new to the game, "we should learn to play with the characters we made". We quit after two sessions, barely alive, after fighting a bodak as four 5th level characters without a divine caster.

Spread the love, prevent something like this from happening to your players :D

[Bakkan]

I prefer a somewhat more detailed synopsis before building my character. If I were to run a campaign consisting mainly of undead foes I would tell my players that explicitly. That way they won't make under- or over-powered characters (a Radiant Servant will be nearly as difficult to deal with as a Rogue). I don't think I lose much by giving this information away; indeed, I liken it to giving a preview of a new movie, which will generally inform viewers what the antagonists of the film will be.

[goto124]

If for an undead campaign a player still wants to play a rogue or beguiler even after said vague suggestions, let them. Some players like to challenge themselves.

If it happens, I would just outright tell them 'this is an undead campaign', because they may not have caught up on the suggestions. Better to lose the surprise than to give the players a shock- 'You didn't tell us it was all undead!' 'I did! Didn't you catch the hint?' 'WHAT HINT?'

[Garonak]

A lot of good arguments here.

I usually try not to concern myself with the party build-up when I create encounters, this I feel is more logical, as most villains don't really care what the adventurers are good or bad at. When designing a dungeon I try to put myself in the occupants' heads and think how I would build it and protect it if I were in charge. The few times I have taken the party into accounts it has gone horrible wrong, either for me (too easy; or even worse: long outdrawn fights that aren't really any real threat (lots of tough enemies that can't hit the party except on nat 20s)) or for the players (PC death(s))

I must say I agree with the whole psion running around changing adventures to be even more illogical than the retraining rules in PHB2, especially since we have banned psions.


There are two main reasons why I would like to tell them:
1. We played Savage Tide a few years back, and there's a campaign PrC there (Totemic Demon Slayer or something of the likes, it is mediocre, but that's beside the point), if we were to have followed the original plan of the adventure path we wouldn't have "learned" of this PrC until it was way to late to get into it (new characters excepted). The GM moved the PrC ahead some, but it was still too late for us, rendering the whole PrC useless.
2. It is undeads I will be focusing on, which is one of few monster types (with loads of variation) that put serious restrictions on usefulness of certain builds. The main blaster in the Savage Tide camapign was relatively useless against undead (sorcerer focused on charm and fear).

Some arguments against telling:
1. Keeping the mystery. A hidden enemy. There are no rumours. 30 years ago there was a great battle in the area which changed a lot. Many people died, leading to fewer people to run farms, especially those not too young or too old to fight. This led to an "urbanization", people moved away from outlying farms and into the more secure towns and ran the farms/fields together as communities instead. Lack of fighting people and desertion of outposts also opened up for more monsters and outlaws, which in turn has led to less travel, and more urbanization.
2. The group consists of ... powergamers. It is not unusual for them to meet monsters with a CR 4-5 above the party level and they will have no difficulty with the fight. Last campaign we had a cleric who managed to get off 3-4 spells each round.
3. Retraining is allowed in our group, though slightly modified (on feat, 4 skill points, one spell, one optional class ability per level. No class, no race).